AnimeSuki Forums

Gpower · 2014-12-28, 20:22

So I was talking with a friend another day. We are mainly gaming buddies and while he is aware I watch anime, it is usually not a topic of discussion. But then the conversation happened to touch on the topic when I complained about someone playing love live music incredibly loudly in the room (long story) where we are gaming. It was being played using youtube and so pictures of love live characters are all over the projector screen. That's when my friend told me that he doesn't like anime because it objectifies women.

And for some reason, I couldn't put together a response to it. I feel like I wanted to defend anime, but perhaps something in me cannot deny the statement. In the end, I laughed awkwardly and brushed off the topic.

What do you guys think?

Edit: For the record I like love live I don't like overly loud music using crappy speakers.

Jan-Poo · 2014-12-28, 20:40

Anime include a very very broad field of several different genres.
It wouldn't be hard at all for anyone with a decent knowledge of anime to mention quite a few that do not objectify women or that can even be considered feminist.
If someone thinks anime are just about showing tits and asses of sexy girls, they should definitely broaden their horizons.

That being said, are there anime that objectify women? Plenty. The point is that in Japan that isn't even considered a bad thing.

But there are several female oriented anime that objectify men as well.

The idea that pure escapist, wish fulfilling, fantasy works somehow affect the minds of large crowds of people and are the cause behind social injustice, crime and violence is something particularly endemic of the western world.

Japan simply thinks: that's what people want, they don't hurt anyone, so why not?

IceHism · 2014-12-28, 20:50

This isn't even a problem restricted to anime. Many media around the world objectifies women and i would say there are a lot more medias that are more offending in this category than anime So i hope your friend isn't a hypocrite regarding this topic. I wonder how he feels about gamer gate btw.

Now whether anime is prone to objectify women depends on the scope of anime knowledge you have. There are certainly a lot of animes that objectify either gender but there's also a lot that doesn't so it's probably more based on how much exposure you have to it. If the only thing you know about anime are ecchi series then well.... good luck.

Gpower · 2014-12-28, 20:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

Anime include a very very broad field of several different genres.
It wouldn't be hard at all for anyone with a decent knowledge of anime to mention quite a few that do not objectify women or that can even be considered feminist.
If someone thinks anime are just about showing tits and asses of sexy girls, they should definitely broaden their horizons.

That being said, are there anime that objectify women? Plenty. The point is that in Japan that isn't even considered a bad thing.

But there are several female oriented anime that objectify men as well.

The idea that pure escapist, wish fulfilling, fantasy works somehow affect the minds of large crowds of people and are the cause behind social injustice, crime and violence is something particularly endemic of the western world.

Japan simply thinks: that's what people want, they don't hurt anyone, so why not?

Quite true. In defense of myself, I'll say that exposing my power level to a non-anime watching friend while having a cutsy sexy love live idol for background won't win me any favors.

However, even if I were able to make the case that not all anime objectifies women, it does not change the fact that a large portion of anime culture does show these characteristics. I can't say that all the anime I like are intellectual and politically correct, especially given how much I like slice of life. And for my friend, an observer of anime culture from the outside, cute girls does appear to be the defining aspect of anime.

Of cause, there is the argument that there is nothing inherently wrong with the objectification of women in media, at least in something as obviously fictitious, ridiculous and wish fulfilling that anime can often be. However, I don't feel confident to judge how strong this argument actually is.

Tempester · 2014-12-28, 21:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

Japan simply thinks: that's what people want, they don't hurt anyone, so why not?

If this is indeed how the general Japanese sentiment is, I agree with it. Are there anime that "objectify" women? Yes. Should people do something about it? Hell no.

Kotohono · 2014-12-28, 22:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by IceHism

This isn't even a problem restricted to anime. Many media around the world objectifies women and i would say there are a lot more medias that are more offending in this category than anime So i hope your friend isn't a hypocrite regarding this topic. I wonder how he feels about gamer gate btw.

This plenty of western media is heavily prone to it as well in games, movies, and TV are just as bad if not worse about it at times than most animes.

I personally don't judge anime for it that much because it is rather prevalent in most things currently.

Though that said some anime series take too far for me just like western media can; I find certain LN adaptions are bit more likely to go very heavily into it, but I've learned to simply avoid those.

And honestly a series like Love Live is far less objectifying when compared to western media, or other anime series.

Gpower · 2014-12-28, 22:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konakaga

And honestly a series like Love Live is far less objectifying when compared to western media, or other anime series.

Lol I think I might have provoked a legion of love live fans.

For the record, I like love live. What I didn't like was overly loud music played using crappy speakers.

Akito Kinomoto · 2014-12-28, 23:47

How objectified does a cartoon girl need to be for people to point it out? 'Cause like there's a big difference between casual flattery and look at me! I'm naughty/was caught undressing in front of the camera! (the latter which I tend avoid unless my brain is absolutely turned off)

so I say with a stripperiffic Homura avatar...

Archon_Wing · 2014-12-29, 01:29

Yes, but that is a product of the culture it exists in, as well as the demographic it appeals to-- the same can be said about video games and many other places.

But still, yes. I think there's a line somewhere that is in between selling sex appeal (of which I think is fine) and just plain disrespect.

Iron Maw · 2014-12-29, 05:36

Given the insane amount harems and abundance of fanservice that pervades them nowadays... I would have a hard time saying no.

Last Sinner · 2014-12-29, 07:28

You can apply that to any medium, really. TV shows, movies - they're not exactly giving women proper treatment either and the quality of the characters therein is pretty bleh. Games - don't even get me started. Slowly getting better but some many volatile sections of the consumers out there and/or game developers wanting to take things back to the Stone Age in terms of mentality.

As for anime - overall, yes. Moe and merchandise sell. I'd challenge one thing though - women. Women appeared in anime as significant characters a lot less post-2006. It's mainly teen girls now.

Zeydra · 2014-12-29, 07:56

I would definitely say anime tends to objectify women, without a doubt. Although from my experience that isn't quiet the problem when it comes to social stigma, the problem is more a case of how anime tends to do its objectifying rather than that it does it. What I think really tends to get anime the stigma it has to the uninitiated is the age group of the average cast and therefore the age of the characters being objectified. Social norms frown upon most things regarding the fourteen to sixteen year old age bracket, I suspect because it probably gets too close to the pedophilia area for comfort to most, which when combined with a variety of misconceptions about the medium results in the reactions anime fans, particularly moe anime fans, get.

There's also the social attitude that guys aren't supposed to like cute girls doing cute things. Or cute things at all really, but the former encompasses a good deal of anime, which when combined with the misconception of all anime abounding with sexualised content gives the uninitiated a really bad impression.

lmw · 2014-12-29, 08:16

Quote:

Is anime a media that is particularly prone to objectify women?

I don't think so. Of course there are anime that objectify women (and men, for that matter), but the same can be said about other media forms.

In fact, when it comes to women I would say that anime often has strong/interesting/imporant female characters, so I'm always a bit surprised when this topic comes up. Maybe they just watched too many ecchi harems or something?

Ghiest Cid · 2014-12-29, 18:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by lmw

I don't think so. Of course there are anime that objectify women (and men, for that matter), but the same can be said about other media forms.

In fact, when it comes to women I would say that anime often has strong/interesting/imporant female characters, so I'm always a bit surprised when this topic comes up. Maybe they just watched too many ecchi harems or something?

It would not surprise me since they even find sexism in a man's shirt which is created by his female friend. Not to mention the women in the shirt is femme fatale kind. There is also about man pissing standing up., they tried to ban urinals.

And are we not forgetting the male characters are portrayed as insufferable idiots and perverts. This is especially true in sitcoms in the west.

**Solace** · 2014-12-29, 22:23

I would say yes and no. There's a lot of different ways women are portrayed in anime, which sometimes push right into the realm of sexism, sometimes doesn't, and sometimes there's this odd mix of both: anime where women are portrayed as strong, empowered individuals (or groups), yet their character design clearly shows a desire to draw in the male audience.

Ironically, compared to a lot of western media, I find that women in anime are often portrayed far more favorably, despite the mediums obsession with flaunting the female form. There is always several anime a year where women are the main protagonists, have a full range of positive qualities (and "realistic" flaws), and are given equality or dominance in romantic relationships.

I would say the recent rise of light novels that feature wish fulfillment male fantasies has diminished that somewhat, but even then you can find some interesting examples of female characterization.

Triple_R · 2014-12-29, 23:32

Is anime more prone to have female characters that are pure sex objects, with no or little other purpose? No, I honestly don't think that anime is any worse than most other media forms (including video games) when it comes to that.

However, does anime focus more on female character physical attractiveness (cute, pretty, beautiful) than most other media forms? Yeah, that's probably a correct observation. But I don't get the impression that this is done at the expense of characterization, outside of the most hardcore ecchi titles perhaps.

Many of my favorite anime shows have female characters that are clearly designed to look attractive, cute, moe. But like Solace argued, many of those same characters are very well-written and well-developed, including a full range of positive qualities and realistic flaws.

Madoka Magica, Saki, Mari-Mite, and Love Live! itself are good examples of anime shows that have clearly gone to considerable lengths to "pretty up" its female cast members, while also having a lot of well-developed female characters with good in-depth character arcs. (It's a bit amusing to me that Love Live! was tied into all of this, since that show passes the Bechdel Test with absolutely flying colors - 9 female main cast members, none of which talk about men or boyfriends or potential boyfriends at all, really)

It might be good if anime had a few more "plain Jane" and even downright physically unattractive female characters to provide a more realistic balance in their shows, make anime feel more inclusive to wider audiences, and perhaps to open up more narrative options. For example, an anime story focused on a genuinely unattractive female character that struggles with issues related to that could be interesting and potentially even inspiring.

Still, anime is far from the only media that these sorts of suggestions could be raised for. For good or for ill, we tend to like seeing physically attractive characters in the media that we consume, and I think that tends to apply to female and male characters. Most Hollywood movies (horror genre notwithstanding perhaps) and most TV sitcoms also reflect this, in my experience.

SPARTAN 119 · 2014-12-30, 00:48

As far as objectification of women is concerned, I know this charge gets leveled at anime a lot, and while there are, of course, ecchi and downright hentai series that do fit into this category, anime is the genre which contains some of the strongest female characters in fiction, and some of my favorites.

For instance, multiple previous viewers mentioned Madoka Magica. Akemi Homura of Madoka is an excellent example. Sure Homura is intended to be cute, particularly in her "Moemura" form, but she is also a well-developed character, with a tragic back story and an indomitable will to save the one she loves- who happens to be another girl. Also of note in the discussion of gender, anime, and Madoka in particular, I believe Urobuchi, in addition to stating that Homura is, in his own words, "probably" in love with Madoka, has also made a statement in support of the GBLT community, essentially stating that there is no difference between heterosexual and homosexual love.

As for Triple R's comment on an anime about the struggles of an unattractive girl, that was kind of done in WataMote, but Tomoko was still at least average-looking, and if she would stop taking bad advice, she might even be quite attractive. I suspect the idea you mentioned would turn out to be a bit like WataMote, though the character might be even less attractive than Tomoko.

Triple_R · 2014-12-30, 01:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by SPARTAN 119

As for Triple R's comment on an anime about the struggles of an unattractive girl, that was kind of done in WataMote, but Tomoko was still at least average-looking, and if she would stop taking bad advice, she might even be quite attractive. I suspect the idea you mentioned would turn out to be a bit like WataMote, though the character might be even less attractive than Tomoko.

Yeah, I thought about WataMote myself when I wrote my idea there. And while Tomoko isn't downright ugly, she does seem fairly average-looking to me. In any event, she has a bit of a haggard and constantly tired look (those blackish marks under her eyes), so she's arguably the opposite of "prettied up".

I honestly think that anime doesn't get enough credit for its variety of character types and the depth of many of its characters and character arcs. I think it's possible to get a bit too focused on surface level prettiness and lose sight of how well-written and complex many of these characters are.

Love Live's own Honoka Kousaka is a great example of this - It's easy to fall into the trap of thinking she's just a cute airheaded female anime character, but she ends up having a highly impressive emotional range and facial expression range. She can be super-serious and firm when she wants to be, and she can also have moments of sadness and melancholy.

Akito Kinomoto · 2014-12-30, 02:20

I do agree with the sentiment on appearance as a whole. Like, some people will think that all they're doing is separating their libido from critical thought and a lot of well-written heroines are disregarded entirely. Of course, I can't exactly deny that an attractive face is sometimes the edge for a lot of fans; Ohana (Hanasaku Iroha) and Kyousuke (Little Busters!) is probably closest to that case for me. Though, they were also believable in their congeniality. Tricky thing it is, figuring out appearance and writing.

Though if you want to talk about bad looks begetting bad reactions, I'd say Haruyuki from Accel World had it worse than Tomoko. Poor guy.

Fizix · 2014-12-30, 11:01

Hmmm... yes it can and it can be really childish too.

Obviously as anime is a broad medium it is only prevalent in certain genres, but those genres are popular so it becomes really obvious and gives the medium as a whole a bad image and gives fans of the medium a bad image as well.

Like bouncing boobs and the likes stop being funny when you've reached puberty.

Things such as school girl panty shots and the sexualisation of girls who are or who look underaged. That's just weird and I don't understand how it can be appealing. Of course you can tackle teenage sexuality, that's fine, but when it's done for titilation then it's crossing the line IMO.

I also find the need for female protagonists to look like some little boys fantasy to be offputting as well.

I know anime can present some strong female characters, but when you have the above being thrown into the mix it kind of undoes the good.

2014-12-28, 20:22	Link #1
Gpower Junior Member Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: Australia	Is anime a media that is particularly prone to objectify women? So I was talking with a friend another day. We are mainly gaming buddies and while he is aware I watch anime, it is usually not a topic of discussion. But then the conversation happened to touch on the topic when I complained about someone playing love live music incredibly loudly in the room (long story) where we are gaming. It was being played using youtube and so pictures of love live characters are all over the projector screen. That's when my friend told me that he doesn't like anime because it objectifies women. And for some reason, I couldn't put together a response to it. I feel like I wanted to defend anime, but perhaps something in me cannot deny the statement. In the end, I laughed awkwardly and brushed off the topic. What do you guys think? Edit: For the record I like love live I don't like overly loud music using crappy speakers. Last edited by Gpower; 2014-12-28 at 22:30.

2014-12-28, 20:40	Link #2
Jan-Poo 別にいいけど Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: forever lost inside a logic error	Anime include a very very broad field of several different genres. It wouldn't be hard at all for anyone with a decent knowledge of anime to mention quite a few that do not objectify women or that can even be considered feminist. If someone thinks anime are just about showing tits and asses of sexy girls, they should definitely broaden their horizons. That being said, are there anime that objectify women? Plenty. The point is that in Japan that isn't even considered a bad thing. But there are several female oriented anime that objectify men as well. The idea that pure escapist, wish fulfilling, fantasy works somehow affect the minds of large crowds of people and are the cause behind social injustice, crime and violence is something particularly endemic of the western world. Japan simply thinks: that's what people want, they don't hurt anyone, so why not? __________________

2014-12-29, 07:28	Link #11
Last Sinner You're Hot, Cupcake Join Date: Aug 2008 Age: 42	You can apply that to any medium, really. TV shows, movies - they're not exactly giving women proper treatment either and the quality of the characters therein is pretty bleh. Games - don't even get me started. Slowly getting better but some many volatile sections of the consumers out there and/or game developers wanting to take things back to the Stone Age in terms of mentality. As for anime - overall, yes. Moe and merchandise sell. I'd challenge one thing though - women. Women appeared in anime as significant characters a lot less post-2006. It's mainly teen girls now. __________________

2014-12-29, 22:23	Link #15
Solace (ノಠ益ಠ)ノ彡┻━┻ Moderator Join Date: Mar 2006	I would say yes and no. There's a lot of different ways women are portrayed in anime, which sometimes push right into the realm of sexism, sometimes doesn't, and sometimes there's this odd mix of both: anime where women are portrayed as strong, empowered individuals (or groups), yet their character design clearly shows a desire to draw in the male audience. Ironically, compared to a lot of western media, I find that women in anime are often portrayed far more favorably, despite the mediums obsession with flaunting the female form. There is always several anime a year where women are the main protagonists, have a full range of positive qualities (and "realistic" flaws), and are given equality or dominance in romantic relationships. I would say the recent rise of light novels that feature wish fulfillment male fantasies has diminished that somewhat, but even then you can find some interesting examples of female characterization. __________________

2014-12-29, 23:32	Link #16
Triple_R Senior Member Author Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Newfoundland, Canada Age: 42	Is anime more prone to have female characters that are pure sex objects, with no or little other purpose? No, I honestly don't think that anime is any worse than most other media forms (including video games) when it comes to that. However, does anime focus more on female character physical attractiveness (cute, pretty, beautiful) than most other media forms? Yeah, that's probably a correct observation. But I don't get the impression that this is done at the expense of characterization, outside of the most hardcore ecchi titles perhaps. Many of my favorite anime shows have female characters that are clearly designed to look attractive, cute, moe. But like Solace argued, many of those same characters are very well-written and well-developed, including a full range of positive qualities and realistic flaws. Madoka Magica, Saki, Mari-Mite, and Love Live! itself are good examples of anime shows that have clearly gone to considerable lengths to "pretty up" its female cast members, while also having a lot of well-developed female characters with good in-depth character arcs. (It's a bit amusing to me that Love Live! was tied into all of this, since that show passes the Bechdel Test with absolutely flying colors - 9 female main cast members, none of which talk about men or boyfriends or potential boyfriends at all, really) It might be good if anime had a few more "plain Jane" and even downright physically unattractive female characters to provide a more realistic balance in their shows, make anime feel more inclusive to wider audiences, and perhaps to open up more narrative options. For example, an anime story focused on a genuinely unattractive female character that struggles with issues related to that could be interesting and potentially even inspiring. Still, anime is far from the only media that these sorts of suggestions could be raised for. For good or for ill, we tend to like seeing physically attractive characters in the media that we consume, and I think that tends to apply to female and male characters. Most Hollywood movies (horror genre notwithstanding perhaps) and most TV sitcoms also reflect this, in my experience. __________________

2014-12-28, 20:50	Link #3
IceHism Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2014	This isn't even a problem restricted to anime. Many media around the world objectifies women and i would say there are a lot more medias that are more offending in this category than anime So i hope your friend isn't a hypocrite regarding this topic. I wonder how he feels about gamer gate btw. Now whether anime is prone to objectify women depends on the scope of anime knowledge you have. There are certainly a lot of animes that objectify either gender but there's also a lot that doesn't so it's probably more based on how much exposure you have to it. If the only thing you know about anime are ecchi series then well.... good luck.

2014-12-29, 05:36	Link #10
Iron Maw Banned Join Date: Feb 2006	Given the insane amount harems and abundance of fanservice that pervades them nowadays... I would have a hard time saying no.

2014-12-29, 07:56	Link #12
Zeydra A random passerby Join Date: Jul 2012 Age: 32	I would definitely say anime tends to objectify women, without a doubt. Although from my experience that isn't quiet the problem when it comes to social stigma, the problem is more a case of how anime tends to do its objectifying rather than that it does it. What I think really tends to get anime the stigma it has to the uninitiated is the age group of the average cast and therefore the age of the characters being objectified. Social norms frown upon most things regarding the fourteen to sixteen year old age bracket, I suspect because it probably gets too close to the pedophilia area for comfort to most, which when combined with a variety of misconceptions about the medium results in the reactions anime fans, particularly moe anime fans, get. There's also the social attitude that guys aren't supposed to like cute girls doing cute things. Or cute things at all really, but the former encompasses a good deal of anime, which when combined with the misconception of all anime abounding with sexualised content gives the uninitiated a really bad impression.

2014-12-30, 00:48	Link #17
SPARTAN 119 Unleashing the Homu-Rage Join Date: Apr 2010	As far as objectification of women is concerned, I know this charge gets leveled at anime a lot, and while there are, of course, ecchi and downright hentai series that do fit into this category, anime is the genre which contains some of the strongest female characters in fiction, and some of my favorites. For instance, multiple previous viewers mentioned Madoka Magica. Akemi Homura of Madoka is an excellent example. Sure Homura is intended to be cute, particularly in her "Moemura" form, but she is also a well-developed character, with a tragic back story and an indomitable will to save the one she loves- who happens to be another girl. Also of note in the discussion of gender, anime, and Madoka in particular, I believe Urobuchi, in addition to stating that Homura is, in his own words, "probably" in love with Madoka, has also made a statement in support of the GBLT community, essentially stating that there is no difference between heterosexual and homosexual love. As for Triple R's comment on an anime about the struggles of an unattractive girl, that was kind of done in WataMote, but Tomoko was still at least average-looking, and if she would stop taking bad advice, she might even be quite attractive. I suspect the idea you mentioned would turn out to be a bit like WataMote, though the character might be even less attractive than Tomoko.

2014-12-30, 11:01	Link #20
Fizix Nitpicking Join Date: Dec 2014 Location: From England old chaps Age: 42	Hmmm... yes it can and it can be really childish too. Obviously as anime is a broad medium it is only prevalent in certain genres, but those genres are popular so it becomes really obvious and gives the medium as a whole a bad image and gives fans of the medium a bad image as well. Like bouncing boobs and the likes stop being funny when you've reached puberty. Things such as school girl panty shots and the sexualisation of girls who are or who look underaged. That's just weird and I don't understand how it can be appealing. Of course you can tackle teenage sexuality, that's fine, but when it's done for titilation then it's crossing the line IMO. I also find the need for female protagonists to look like some little boys fantasy to be offputting as well. I know anime can present some strong female characters, but when you have the above being thrown into the mix it kind of undoes the good.