AnimeSuki Forums

Jintor · 2009-07-09, 02:16

I wonder if you could relate this to Mage The Awakening: What Haruhi truly believes is "Consensus" (except it's a Consensus of One, since she's the only important figure in this universe)

Ithekro · 2009-07-09, 02:36

Just because the future "goes away" does mean the matter that entered the time loop goes away as well. Thus since Mikuru entered the time loop, she's in it, even if the time were she comes from is gone and thus she would "cease to exist".

On a techincal angle, the past ceases to exist as well as the future if they are in a closed loop, no beginning, no ending. If that were the case they all shouldn't exists since they have no past to be born either. Thus the theory that all matter within the closed loop will remain even if said matter shouldn't exist anymore because of the loop. This would be logical if the loop was made from a set period of time that was looped back on itself yet there is still a dimention were time continued as if nothing happened (no loop). Since this must be the case, otherwise Mikuru wouldn't exist in the first place if time did not progress forward in at least one timeline, this must be the truth.

Takamura Mamoru · 2009-07-09, 04:10

According to Mikuru, time is not fluent.
It's kinda like a flip book. Looks fluent, but actually is just a lot of shots, only in this case these intervals are very very very small.

And so, if you scribble around on one page of the flip book, the next pages won't change.

...On the other hand, Kyon actually questioned this in the first episode of Season 2, because he influenced past Haruhi or something.

The answer?

"Axiomatic set theory offers no proof of its internal antinomies without antinomies."
or, in another translation
"As there is no set conclusion to the paradox theory, there is no way to prove that there is no paradox."

Jintor · 2009-07-09, 05:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ithekro

On a techincal angle, the past ceases to exist as well as the future if they are in a closed loop, no beginning, no ending. If that were the case they all shouldn't exists since they have no past to be born either. Thus the theory that all matter within the closed loop will remain even if said matter shouldn't exist anymore because of the loop. This would be logical if the loop was made from a set period of time that was looped back on itself yet there is still a dimention were time continued as if nothing happened (no loop). Since this must be the case, otherwise Mikuru wouldn't exist in the first place if time did not progress forward in at least one timeline, this must be the truth.

Actually there's no way to verify that the past exists or does not exist, since Haruhi can pretty much create a universe that 'has a past' immediately at any time.

Takamura: Mikuru is either lying or has been told wrong information, because that simply doesn't work given what Kyon experienced.

Vallen Chaos Valiant · 2009-07-09, 05:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jintor

Takamura: Mikuru is either lying or has been told wrong information, because that simply doesn't work given what Kyon experienced.

The third possibility is that what Kyon experienced simply wasn't 'technically" possible, that only occurred because Haruhi was involved.

Look at it another way; from the Cricket incident, Yuki made the point that the SOS-dan room had been altered by the very PRESENCE of Haruhi to the point that outside factors have trouble harming people within it. The room, in effect, is in its own mini-dimension due to contamination of divinity.

All this is just another way of saying "Haruhi Did It". This is of course, not logical, but is none the less a required element we all have to keep in mind.

What Yuki, Itsuki and Mikuru does, follows existing rules of their universe. As such we can analyze their actions in order to test the waters concerning their universe. But the Factor X would always be Haruhi; the rule breaker.

Jintor · 2009-07-09, 05:45

I guess 'contaminant by divinity' is a kind of HaruhiDidIt but I think that on the whole she might need to know about spacetime and/or be actively thinking about it before it happens.

I wonder if Haruhi really does have universe-CREATING powers like we posit for Seitenkan existance purposes.

Takamura Mamoru · 2009-07-09, 07:02

Spoiler:

It's a boring volume, but Sighs does give us a lot of new theories regarding Haruhi's existence.

Guernsey · 2009-07-09, 11:06

So Haruhi may not be the Goddess that everyone believes but that still doesn't explian what Kyon's role in this, is he the real God or is he a slider?

Kogetsu Shirogane · 2009-07-09, 11:13

Kyon is the key. He is Haruhi's enabler. He is John Smith. There is nothing more to him than that.

Vallen Chaos Valiant · 2009-07-09, 11:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Guernsey

So Haruhi may not be the Goddess that everyone believes but that still doesn't explian what Kyon's role in this, is he the real God or is he a slider?

You don't need to have superpowers to be someone special. Power isn't everything.

dragon4dudes · 2009-07-09, 16:25

Not only is the key, he's also the wallet

Ithekro · 2009-07-09, 16:28

Well people do tend to keep their keys with their wallet.

dragon4dudes · 2009-07-09, 16:34

I don't... Am I not normal?

Takamura Mamoru · 2009-07-09, 16:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kogetsu Shirogane

Kyon is the key.

And this is precisely why I firmly refuse to accept any theories regarding Kyon being anything other than normal. It simply would erase the very foundation his character is based upon.

He's normal, yet the key to everything. He's ordinary, yet Haruhi still loves him.
There's a huge contrast between the crazyness and the fiction and him.
If it were to be revealed that, say, he's god, this would all be meaningless.

I can't deny that the theories have a lot of hints, but I refuse to accept it.

Sute443 · 2009-07-09, 17:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Takamura Mamoru

He's normal, yet the key to everything. He's ordinary, yet Haruhi still loves him.
There's a huge contrast between the crazyness and the fiction and him.

I was just thinking about that the other day, and I suddenly realized why Haruhi drew Kyon to her even though he's a normal human. She's too sensible for her own good (or at least, for her to grant her own stated desires).

Haruhi wants aliens/time travelers/espers/sliders but "knows" that they can't really exist. This led her to the idea that she needs to accept the world as it is. This is not a thought she enjoys and in fact actively opposes, but I'm betting some small part of her wished for someone who could show her that being normal is okay. Thus, we have Kyon.

dragon4dudes · 2009-07-09, 17:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sute443

Thus, we have Kyon.

One of my understandings (yes, I understood that more than one way, one of which, I hope, is the correct one) of that statement is that Kyon exists because Haruhi wants him to. Another is that Kyon's personality exists because Haruhi wishes for it. Yet another is Kyon becomes friends with Haruhi because Haruhi wishes is so. There are a few more thoughts, but that should be enough.

Sute443 · 2009-07-09, 17:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by dragon4dudes

One of my understandings (yes, I understood that more than one way, one of which, I hope, is the correct one) of that statement is that Kyon exists because Haruhi wants him to. Another is that Kyon's personality exists because Haruhi wishes for it. Yet another is Kyon becomes friends with Haruhi because Haruhi wishes is so. There are a few more thoughts, but that should be enough.

I was going for the third one. Haruhi summoned Kyon because he fit what she subconsciously decided she needs.

***CrowKenobi*** · 2009-07-09, 22:26

You've got it wrong... at least one aspect of it. Haruhi is really interested in "John Smith," who happens to be Kyon... the rest more or less remains the same.

And Itsuki in the movie explains exactly what Kyon's purpose is:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Itsuki

In any case, he... No. In this scene, it would be me; I am the key, correct? And that key itself is unable to effect anything. The key is merely a means to open the door. When the door is opened, something will change.

Kogetsu Shirogane · 2009-07-10, 02:43

That's pretty much where the key thing came from, yes.

***CrowKenobi*** · 2009-07-10, 19:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kogetsu Shirogane

That's pretty much where the key thing came from, yes.

And not Ghostbusters!

2009-07-09, 02:36	Link #222
Ithekro Gamilas Falls Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Republic of California Age: 46	Just because the future "goes away" does mean the matter that entered the time loop goes away as well. Thus since Mikuru entered the time loop, she's in it, even if the time were she comes from is gone and thus she would "cease to exist". On a techincal angle, the past ceases to exist as well as the future if they are in a closed loop, no beginning, no ending. If that were the case they all shouldn't exists since they have no past to be born either. Thus the theory that all matter within the closed loop will remain even if said matter shouldn't exist anymore because of the loop. This would be logical if the loop was made from a set period of time that was looped back on itself yet there is still a dimention were time continued as if nothing happened (no loop). Since this must be the case, otherwise Mikuru wouldn't exist in the first place if time did not progress forward in at least one timeline, this must be the truth. __________________

2009-07-09, 07:02	Link #227
Takamura Mamoru The Hawk Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Berlin, Fatherland	Spoiler: "I believe this is what Asahina Mikuru thinks," Nagato said as though she could read my mind. "Suzumiya Haruhi isn't the creator and was not responsible for the creation of this world. This world has existed in this state since long ago. The supernatural existence of espers, temporal anomalies and alien life forms wasn't created through the wishes of Suzumiya Haruhi, and has existed since long before that. Suzumiya Haruhi's task is to unconsciously discover the existence of these beings. She started using her abilities three years ago, but her discoveries have not led her to become self-aware. She is able to search for the paranormal, but it contradicts with her own views on the paranormal world. This is because one faction is still preventing her from becoming self-aware." She calmly spoke without even smiling. Nagato looked at me with her piercing eyes as she said the above, she then said the following before closing her mouth, "And that would be us." It's a boring volume, but Sighs does give us a lot of new theories regarding Haruhi's existence.

2009-07-09, 11:06	Link #228
Guernsey The GAP Man Join Date: Jun 2008 Age: 36	So Haruhi may not be the Goddess that everyone believes but that still doesn't explian what Kyon's role in this, is he the real God or is he a slider? __________________

2009-07-09, 11:13	Link #229
Kogetsu Shirogane Kneel Before Your King! Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: My kingdom Age: 39	Kyon is the key. He is Haruhi's enabler. He is John Smith. There is nothing more to him than that. __________________ WARNING: Kogetsu Shirogane cannot be held accountable for any actions taken by someone else. Potential side effects of communicating with this user include headaches, mild confusion, insanity, delirium, and jumping into fires. Do not expose this user to sunlight or water or feed this user after midnight. ... so you think you're a king now...

2009-07-09, 16:25	Link #231
dragon4dudes Uncountable rationality Join Date: May 2007 Location: Following the clouds North. Age: 31	Not only is the key, he's also the wallet __________________ Time is an illusion. Lunchtime doubly so. Douglas Adams Where facts are few, experts are many. Donald R. Gannon void foo() {foo();} // Can you guess what this line of code does?

2009-07-09, 02:16	Link #221
Jintor Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Land Down Under Age: 32	I wonder if you could relate this to Mage The Awakening: What Haruhi truly believes is "Consensus" (except it's a Consensus of One, since she's the only important figure in this universe)

2009-07-09, 04:10	Link #223
Takamura Mamoru The Hawk Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Berlin, Fatherland	According to Mikuru, time is not fluent. It's kinda like a flip book. Looks fluent, but actually is just a lot of shots, only in this case these intervals are very very very small. And so, if you scribble around on one page of the flip book, the next pages won't change. ...On the other hand, Kyon actually questioned this in the first episode of Season 2, because he influenced past Haruhi or something. The answer? "Axiomatic set theory offers no proof of its internal antinomies without antinomies." or, in another translation "As there is no set conclusion to the paradox theory, there is no way to prove that there is no paradox."

2009-07-09, 05:45	Link #226
Jintor Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Land Down Under Age: 32	I guess 'contaminant by divinity' is a kind of HaruhiDidIt but I think that on the whole she might need to know about spacetime and/or be actively thinking about it before it happens. I wonder if Haruhi really does have universe-CREATING powers like we posit for Seitenkan existance purposes.

2009-07-09, 16:28	Link #232
Ithekro Gamilas Falls Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Republic of California Age: 46	Well people do tend to keep their keys with their wallet. __________________

2009-07-09, 16:34	Link #233
dragon4dudes Uncountable rationality Join Date: May 2007 Location: Following the clouds North. Age: 31	I don't... Am I not normal? __________________ Time is an illusion. Lunchtime doubly so. Douglas Adams Where facts are few, experts are many. Donald R. Gannon void foo() {foo();} // Can you guess what this line of code does?

2009-07-10, 02:43	Link #239
Kogetsu Shirogane Kneel Before Your King! Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: My kingdom Age: 39	That's pretty much where the key thing came from, yes. __________________ WARNING: Kogetsu Shirogane cannot be held accountable for any actions taken by someone else. Potential side effects of communicating with this user include headaches, mild confusion, insanity, delirium, and jumping into fires. Do not expose this user to sunlight or water or feed this user after midnight. ... so you think you're a king now...