Claymore Chapter 121

[Double_friedman]

Well @Asymati, many people replied to your saying Miria's around Raph. I think their replies are very convicincing and logic.
About Claymore...yeah I think it's getting a little sucky.

[ATM]

Originally Posted by MalakTawus

@ATM
I don't agree.Jean has NEVER showed any sign of partial awakening,never.
You base your speculation on something that simply isn't true,Jean did a full awakening,not a partial.
All she did was being able to keep her body completely immobile thanx to her great will power (and only for a very brief time),but in the end that's more similar to what Hilde or Ophelia (more or less) did.
What Claire did against Rigardo is something that no one has ever done in Claymore,and this is a fact.
On the contrary what happened to Jean actually strenghten my opinion not yours,infact even a warrior with an incredible "humanity" and determination like Jean wasn't able to do a partial awakening so it's actually even more probable that only Claire can do something like that.
Jean gave Claire inspiration to control her awakened arm but that's completely different to say that Jean can also do it, giving an idea and actually doing it its not the same.

My belief is that a full awakening happens not only when claymores physically turn into beasts, but also when their minds suffer an equivalent alteration. Maybe it happens when they lose their souls, or whatever you want to call it, at that point they are not part humans anymore. Remember how various ex-claymores at the time of their transformation have said that now they can see or understand or in Priscilla’s case that she saw no point in holding back, that’s when their souls are gone and their psyche changes, and they experience some sort of “enlightenment” or “rebirth” where they have no limitations and do not need to follow moral law, there is only the pleasure of being totally free and the need to feed on human beings.

That’s why I think that Jean did a partial and not a full awakening because while she underwent a full physical change she kept her mind intact and was able to come back as a claymore. And the difference I see between Jean’s and Clare’s case is that Clare was able to take advantage of her partial awakening and use it in a fight.

Hilda and Ophelia are a totally different thing; they were awakened beings that did what they did as awakened beings, even if they showed reason. Jean did what she did as a human being, she was not totally lost. And I’m sure that with the right conditions some experienced Claymores like the ghosts can achieve body changes without fully awakening.

Originally Posted by Asimati

So personal opinions of the chapter and initial impressions. A transfer chapter mostly, nothing particullary unexpected.

"Her soul for the future" sounds really like Miria will awake at some point.
The skin falling off like that is fairly creepy.

Yeah, with that title I was getting ready for the worst, good thing that wasn't the case, I just want her to partially awake.

I also liked that picture a lot, stared at it a long time; see how Roxxanes cheek was missing and you can see her pearly whites, creepy indeed but I liked it. Another picture I found weird is the one at the bottom right of page 14. Is it my morbid imagination or Cassandra looks like she is giving birth to a mini Cassandra hehe, I find this picture crazy weird.

Originally Posted by gxy1069

which means it should succeed, given the way the storyline is progressing. just hope it somehow doesn't go the other way and make the story go back into hibernation mode for abt 20 more chapters, which would suck. its best if this arc is finished fast; either that, or hysteria had better evolve or smth. don't want to be staring at her current form any longer

I have an advice, It might work if you follow these instructions. When looking at Hysteria's awakened form focus your vision at her mid section, right below her neck but a little bit above her belly button. That might sweeten her appearance a great deal. It only works on frontal pictures of her thou, not sure on what to do when the picture is from her back hehehe

[Falcor]

So far Dae's plan to attract Priscilla doesn't seem to be working so well. Unless... he may have deduced that Raki has a special connection with her. In that case, the ZAOs are but a part of his overall scheme, with Raki being his true ace card.

All it would take is for any one of the three ZAOs to take a sudden interest in Raki, and the next thing we know Priscilla will suddenly appear to make sure nobody except herself lays a finger on him.

Oh, and Clare would appear shortly afterwards, since she had to travel on foot.

[MalakTawus]

@ATM

Hilda and Ophelia are a totally different thing; they were awakened beings that did what they did as awakened beings, even if they showed reason. Jean did what she did as a human being, she was not totally lost. And I’m sure that with the right conditions some experienced Claymores like the ghosts can achieve body changes without fully awakening.

If you consider those two completely "lost", why the hell do you think that they let themselves be killed like that (especially Hilda)?
What you say doesn't make any sense.....
anyway no one beside Claire has ever shown to be able to do a physical partial awakening,and more importantly,fighting in those conditions.Even if we consider what Jean did a partial awakening (and imo it's absurd since it's been said clearly even in the manga that she fully awakened.....),the best she could do was to stay immobile.
Also,what you say doesn't make any sense 'cause if she really had some sort of control in her awakening she could have freed herself from the chains very easily and keept her control.
The real key to partial awakening is the ability to control (not simply resist!!!) the awakening,and no matter what you say Jean simply can't do it even if she has amazing determination, Irene is the one that showed Claire the key to partial awakening,and Claire is the only claymore to have done a "real" partial awakening,all that Jean did was resist her awakening for a very short time (this is FAR from the concept of partial awakening).
Sorry,but imo there is no way that the ghosts can do something similar,especially Miria that sure as hell seems way too emotional.

@Falcor

True,Raki is indeed the real key to attract Priscilla,but even that is just luck since Dae can't know that Raki is the only one that would interest both Prissy and Claire.
....but assuming that Claire is the one in control of the blob,i suppose that even the ghosts risking to be killed could be reason enough for Claire to let Prissy free and run with her to the battlefield......but that choice wouldn't be idiotic only if Claire thinks to have a chance to defeat Prissy later,if not her friends will be killed anyway together with tons of other people.....

[ATM]

Originally Posted by MalakTawus

@ATM

If you consider those two lost why the hell do you think that they let themselves be killed like that (especially Hilda)?
What you say doesn't make any sense.....
anyway no one beside Claire has ever shown to be able to do a physical partial awakening,and more importantly,fighting in those conditions.Even if we consider what Jean did a partial awakening (and imo it's absurd since it's been said clearly even in the manga that she fully awakened.....),the best she could do was stay immobile also,what you say doesn't make any sense 'cause if she really had some sort of control in her awakening she could have free herself from the chains very easily and keep her control.
The real key to partial awakening is the ability to control (not simply resist!!!) the awakening,and no matter what you say Jean simply can't do it even if she has amazing determination, Irene is the one that showed Claire the key to partial awakening,and Claire is the only claymore to have done a real partial awakening,all that Jean did was resist her awakening for a very short time (this has very little to do with the concept of partial awakening).
Sorry,but imo there is no way that the ghosts can do something similar,especially Miria that

I have no idea why Hilda or Ophelia behaved that way but they were awakened beings not half humans. Last month Shiek, Asimati and I had a conversation about Awakened beings behavior, and what I learned from that is that I know very little about their conduct. I thought that they were just driven by the their hunger, Pretty much like vampires except for the fact that instead of needing to suck liquids, they need to chew on something squashy. But I learned that they also can coexist with humans and show traces of what maybe could be called compassion for example what Priscila did for raki, or the relationship of Riful and Dauf. Anyways like I said, I don’t know much about the subject.

But I’m pretty sure that what Jean did at Riful’s cave was a partial awakening. Also what Alicia, Luciella and the twins use is a partial awakenings. Rubel tells it to Galatea when they were watching them fight against Isleys ab’s. He says to Galatea that is up to Beth to keep Alicia from a completely awakening. That Beth keeps Alicias spirit, working as an anchor, in order to return properly to normal. An Rubel also said that Beth, which protected Alicias soul was the one with the hardest job, which makes me think of how powerful Jean really was, to be able to resist a full body awakening for who knows how long all by herself. Clare is very powerful, we all know that, but she didn`t do a full body awakening and at the end she almost lost all control of her altered limbs and she ended attacking Jean.

I agree with you, to be able to do this seems extremly difficult and maybe we won't see the ghosts doing it yet, but I like to think that they can, and I want to see it happen, it will increase their chances of success enormously and because the drawings have to be exelent, and because deep down an out of curiosity we all just want to know how they would look like hehehe

Hey Falcor nice post, but how do you know that there wasn't a special connection between Raki and Dae? why do you think he ended up in a cell and not in a ditch? hehehe.

[MalakTawus]

I have no idea why Hilda or Ophelia behaved that way but they were awakened beings not half humans. Last month Shiek, Asimati and I had a conversation about Awakened beings behavior, and what I learned from that is that I know very little about their conduct. I thought that they were just driven by the their hunger, Pretty much like vampires except for the fact that instead of needing to suck liquids, they need to chew on something squashy. But I learned that they also can coexist with humans and show traces of what maybe could be called compassion for example what Priscila did for raki, or the relationship of Riful and Dauf. Anyways like I said, I don’t know much about the subject.

Jean did exactly the same thing as those two,just a bit better.

But I’m pretty sure that what Jean did at Riful’s cave was a partial awakening.

Just no,i already explained why what Jean did is not a partial awakening,at least not in the sense that Claire did.

Also what Alicia, Luciella and the twins use is a partial awakenings.

Ehm,that's the soul link. None of them is capable of doing a partial awakening on their own, infact they don't even try to do it but instead let the companion take care of the dirty work.
It's something very different than what Claire did,it just looks similar.

Clare is very powerful, we all know that, but she didn`t do a full body awakening and at the end she almost lost all control of her altered limbs and she ended attacking Jean.

In fact for what we know not even Claire can do a full awakening and come back,BUT she is the only one that showed to be able to do a partial awakening on herself,and yes in the end she was losing control,but that's just because she was fighting a very strong opponent and was forced to go a bit too far (considering that she was also doing something like that for the first time in a REAL fight),but still it's quite clear that she showed potential to be able to improve her control.
I think that at some point Claire will be able to fully awaken and come back,but i belive so not because she's simply stronger than the others (and already knows how to "control" a partial awakening),but because her body is really different from all the others so i think that even her awakening must have something different from the usual awakening.Of course this last part is just my speculation and has nothing to do with what we were discussing.

I agree with you, to be able to do this seems extremly difficult and maybe we won't see the ghosts doing it yet, but I like to think that they can, and I want to see it happen, it will increase their chances of success enormously and because the drawings have to be exelent, and because deep down an out of curiosity we all just want to know how they would look like hehehe

It won't happen since none of them have any idea how to awaken a single part of their body and using that in combat keeping it under control,all Claire had to do was bringing the QS concept to the maximum.......no one has any idea how to do something like that.
If you add to that that it's very probable that Claire was able to do that level of partial awakening since she obviously is not a normal warrior, while ALL the other ghosts are 100% normal warriors (ok,3 of them are half awakened and have a superior limit,but they are still "normal").......i'd say that if Yagi let them do a partial awakening that would be an HUGE BS imo.
At best I can agree on full awakenings that at the end of the battle let the others kill them like Hilda and Ophelia, or escape the battlefield.......

[SagaraSouske]

Jean was not the same because her mind is fully aware of what is happening to her body and is fully resisting it.

In Ophelia's case, she clearly was not aware of the process.

Hilda is an unknown though.

But the reason they wanted to die is prob because the memory they inherited have too large an imprint on their AB personality. Priscilla display similar signs, although not the suicidal part.

As for clare being the only one able to partial awaken limbs and come back. Jean was already a case that proved she wasn't. I think partial limb awakening can happen to any of the fab4 provided if they have a strong enough will.

[MalakTawus]

I really don't understand how poeple can put what Claire did and what Jean did as the same thing.
Jean has NEVER showed that she could awaken only part of her body while keeping the rest "normal",NEVER.
I didn't say that only Claire can be brought back,i said that she's the only one that has shown to be able to do a partial awakening.
Just because Jean was able to do what she did it doesn't mean that she can awakens only parts of her body keeping the rest "human",if not (like i have already said),she should have done that in the first place: awakening just an arm should have been more than enough to free herself from that situation without risking of losing control........no matter what you say but you are plain wrong,the reason why Jean didn't do it is very simple: SHE CAN'T DO PARTIAL AWAKENING AT ALL.

She is said to possess a sense of humanity and determination greater than anyone else and she used all that willpower to resist her FULL AWAKENING.
Is that impressive? Surely.
Does it proves that she can do partial awakening? NO!!!It just means that she has crazy willpower.

Miria and the ghosts surely can't do partial awakening either since they have absolutely no knowledge of how to do it......and probably they also don't have a crazy willpower like Jean so they REALLY risk to lose themselves if they even try to do it.

If partial awakening was something that anyone can improvise,than the QS would be a very basic technique for everyone.......but we instead know that even the "simple" QS is a technique that only a monster would even dare to use it,forget partial awakening,lol (that is basically the QS concept brought to an absurd level).

[gxy1069]

awakening does not constitute complete savagery and loss of humanity in the being; it simply enhances their dormant traits(like how cassandra started talking *ahem* shit). most of the time that leads to their detachment from normal behaviour, but definitely, they are the same person at the core. how an awakened being behaves really depends on how much control/determination they have to retain their humanity.

but honestly, i don't want to see partial awakenings happening. anymore than what claire did, and awakening becomes a disposable plot device that undermines what claymore is as a serious manga, and kind of eliminates claire's special position; furthermore, if everyone knew how to partially awaken, then the power levels you guys were debating about would really be broken. so in conclusion, i'd rather the claymores struggle like in a real battle, rather than pull off some half-ass awakenings and end up with some anti-climax slaughtering of the AOs. honestly, i don't care if someone dies here(hehe). i've been waiting for this for too long, and i sincerely hope this battle goes down to the wire.

p.s. that's just my personal opinion

[Asimati]

Originally Posted by su5so

Then you are saying that Deneve and Helen have Rigardo level now? You remember in Pieta that even they had not the level of a number 2 claymore, ¿how they could have now the level of a number 2 awake? For me it is totally absurd, although they have trained hard for 7 years.

I said I top them at claymore Rigaldo at most (as in a baseline for nr 2 claymores), teamwork and using very high yoki levels might be enough to overcome the bonus for awakening. They were at single digit level at Pieta. So they should be around nr 2 or 3 now and Dauf doesn't feel that hard for them (even if it's a lot because they are strong enough to slice through Dauf's skin).

@MalakTawus

Deneave is also quite speciffic that she doesn't know the outcome in an fullfledged fight, even with Miria's higher stats. She basically says win for Miria on paper. WC and QS is a bit of a mess data wise in general. Flora (nr 8, fastest sword of any claymore) could partially parry it (well her QS, but Claire basically said that the WC is on par of her old QS during the Agatha fight), so it's not a super move, "only" an excellent one. Flora has to been a one trick claymore for her number to make sense btw.

I did forget it in my last post, but Miria did beat Rachel without "crossing swords" with her (chapter 113-114). Rigaldo crossed "swords" with both Undine and Jean. Now this is not enough to say that Miria did better, it's farily evident that Miria is as above Rachel (a nr 5) as Rigaldo was above Jean or Undine (nr 9 or 11). Yes Rachel is probably weak for a nr 5 (even if her AB record should be quite large), but hardly weaker than Jean or Undine, rather the opposite.

So if Raph is way beyond Miria, how weak is Rigaldo compared to Isley?

Originally Posted by MalakTawus

Ehm, Raph's objective was to kill her sister,an abyssal, so it's quite obvious that she didn't sleep all those years,i thought this was quite evident.....

Then you need evidence or it's an assumption. Remeber that the massive improvement by heavy training for years is new, even for Rubel. Raph is never shown training. If it never occured to her that she trained enough, she might be able to match Luci, then it's possible that it never occured to her to do anything more than keeping her skill. She is never shown training for facing Luci, rather the opposite, with glooming around in a cave.

Originally Posted by MalakTawus

Again.....it's been said very clearly in the manga (with no possibility of misunderstanding) that those 3 zombies are not necessarily stronger than the 3 old abyssals,they are simply the only warriors that MAYBE could be stronger than them.....in other words they seemed to have more or less the same strenght so the Mibs don't know if they'll be stronger or not.

Yes we don't have proof either way.

Originally Posted by MalakTawus

You must be a blind Miria fan,because there is no way in hell that Miria was faster than Rigardo,also what you say here doesn't make any sense 'cause in case you haven't noticed even Rigardo was able to dodge Miria's attacks very easily,lol.
To be more precise their pure speed was basically the same (he himself says so.....and Claire said that Miria was trying to follow his movements giving everything she had,but it was still him to give the "rhythm" to the battle) but Rigardo had clearly better control....anyway Rigardo's movements were better,no contest.

Her phantom was faster than Rigaldo, she could dodge his attacks. It's not until she slows down that she gets injured. Her phantom position move+normal attack was too slow. It's a nice example of the downtime slowing I've talked about. Her baseline speed was way below Rigaldo's.
The fight vs Hysteria was the first time she's done a phantom attack.

[Shiek927]

Originally Posted by Asimati

Then you need evidence or it's an assumption. Remeber that the massive improvement by heavy training for years is new, even for Rubel. Raph is never shown training. If it never occured to her that she trained enough, she might be able to match Luci, then it's possible that it never occured to her to do anything more than keeping her skill. She is never shown training for facing Luci, rather the opposite, with glooming around in a cave.

I'm inclined to agree; Cyclone's theory that Rafaela had no intention of killing her sister (in such a ridiculous fashion especially), but rather tried to save her, as she still contained her soul within her seems more plausible; especially when you consider such things like Rafaela never using her yoki for all that time.

I'm personally not the biggest fan since it feels too black/white; that Luciella was basically a monster with no humanity inside her which just feels wrong to me - but over the idea that Rafaela merely attempted to kill her, I prefer it, especially when it predicted the fusion that we would see later on which Cyclone happily pronounced.

Need to look up alot of old stuff -- it's amazing all the theories we used to have in the past (So many people, including myself, was so certain that Alicia would join with Riful, or Riful would join with the Ghosts), some of which are still accurate and plausible in their own ways. I think Gooral said he wanted to create a thread like that where people can post all their old stuff.

[Jean#9]

Just reading about the whole Jean/Claire partial awakening debate, and of course being a Jean fanboy I have to put my 2 cents in

First we have to define exactly what a "Full Awakening" and "Partial Awakening" means.

From what I understand and have read, a "Full Awakening" happens when both the body AND the mind (spirit/soul whatever) awaken and the claymore becomes a full-on awakened being. Both physically changing and mentally changing as well.

A partial awakening means that a warrior who has gone close to awakening (but not fully awakened). For example, a warrior who has released close to 70-90% of their yoki limit, but not fully awakened, and come back from the brink would be partially awakened.

With Jean, she was able to fully physically awaken her body, but her mind was still human. She was able to come back from the brink of awakening. Hence shes a partially awakened claymore.

In chapter 30, Miria talks about how the 4 of them (claire, miria, helen, deneve) haven't fully awakened, but are in a "half awakened state". Because of this, abilities that shouldn't come easily to other claymores, come easily to them (stretching of limbs for helen, regeneration for deneve etc) because they are partially awakened already.

Anyway, sorry for the long post, this is all just my understanding of what I've read. Someone may disagree with me on the definitions of full and partial awakening and thats cool...just wanted to join in the debate. I think analyzing chapter 30 is a good starting point in this whole debate on what fully and partially awakened means.

[MalakTawus]

@Asimati

Deneave is also quite speciffic that she doesn't know the outcome in an fullfledged fight, even with Miria's higher stats.

Well,you are the one that said that Miria would win against Claire in normal fight at 0% yoki,not me.....

but Claire basically said that the WC is on par of her old QS during the Agatha fight), so it's not a super move, "only" an excellent one.

No Claire said clearly that her WC (at 0%) is weaker than her old QS but is more precise......
....and btw Claire's current QS is clearly a crazy technique if we consider what we saw against Raph....

I did forget it in my last post, but Miria did beat Rachel without "crossing swords" with her (chapter 113-114). Rigaldo crossed "swords" with both Undine and Jean. Now this is not enough to say that Miria did better, it's farily evident that Miria is as above Rachel (a nr 5) as Rigaldo was above Jean or Undine (nr 9 or 11). Yes Rachel is probably weak for a nr 5 (even if her AB record should be quite large), but hardly weaker than Jean or Undine, rather the opposite.

This whole "crossing swords" means nothing,especially since it's clear that Rig wasn't even fighting seriously,just playing around.Also just because he can avoid crossing swords doesn't mean that he has to do it,lol.In case you have forgotten he was way beyond them in everything,not just speed so he could fight as he pleased.Miria on the other hand probably is that great mainly in speed,infact i doubt that she has (for example) more physical power than Rachel or more stamina than Diet.Her weapon is speed so that's what she uses,Rigardo main weapon against the warriors in Pieta was....well EVERYTHING,lol.He didn't avoid to cross sword simply 'cause he didn't have any real reason to do it.

Then you need evidence or it's an assumption. Remeber that the massive improvement by heavy training for years is new, even for Rubel. Raph is never shown training. If it never occured to her that she trained enough, she might be able to match Luci, then it's possible that it never occured to her to do anything more than keeping her skill. She is never shown training for facing Luci, rather the opposite, with glooming around in a cave.

Seriously,don't make me laugh.
First of all we never seen Raph train simply bacause we have just seen MAYBE 5 minutes in total of her LOOOONG life (a lot of years>>>>5 mins),what did you espect?
Also this is particulary ridicolous since we actually haven't even seen the ghosts train,lol.
BUT,if you think a bit about it, it doesn't take a genius to understand that if you want to kill an abyssal you have to train (no,it's not an option,it's a forced choice)....
It's like seeing an athlete at the olimpics and wondering if he trains or not just because you have never seen his training....OF COURSE HE TRAINS!!!
Raph was already at n.1 level so it makes sense that her improvement wouldn't be that amazing like the ghosts,but still she surely would have some sort of improvement too, mainly in the technique and experience department probably, since her basic abilities were already great.

Anyway Raph was a n.1-level monster that had a lot of time to refine herself instead of being killed after a few years,no way Miria can compare with her (but maybe she can win with some strange trick like she did with Histy,lol )

Yes we don't have proof either way.

That was my point.ZAOs could be stronger than old abyssal or not, no one actually knows for certain.

Her phantom was faster than Rigaldo, she could dodge his attacks.

Ehm even Rigardo was able to avoid Miria's phantom (when she wasn't tired btw....),so your theory is completely destroyed.....
Please go reread those chapters,it's obvious that you don't remember them too well since Rigardo can avoid Miria's attack just as good as Miria can avoid his attacks,Miria is not faster at all,their speed is more or less the same and if someone is MAYBE a bit faster, that someone is Rigardo since he's the one that impressed the rhythm to the battle and Miria followed as she could......

@Shiek927

Cyclone's theory that Rafaela had no intention of killing her sister

Hmmmm..... it's pretty clear from her dialogue with Rubel that she is at least preparing to kill her sister.
Of course i can agree that Raph would at least have tried to see if she could save her sister somehow,but she is not a fool, she knew perfectly well that she had to prepare for the most probable scenario where she had to kill her sister,so it's sure that she at least prepared (both mentally and physically) for something like that even if she maybe hoped secretly in some sort of happy ending (but tbh she doesn't seems THAT naive....).

[Asimati]

Originally Posted by MalakTawus

@Asimati
Well,you are the one that said that Miria would win against Claire in normal fight at 0% yoki,not me.....

Yes. At 0% yoki testing eachother out on a full scale training duel -> Miria. Going all out for the kill (even without the QoB form), -> uncertain.

Originally Posted by MalakTawus

No Claire said clearly that her WC (at 0%) is weaker than her old QS but is more precise......
....and btw Claire's current QS is clearly a crazy technique if we consider what we saw against Raph....

It can be more to QS, but it's not beyond what happens going from 0% yoki to 100%.

Fair enough about the drop. WC has more force and precision, but lower speed. It depends on what weaker means in this context. It can be speed and/or it can be force. Anyway, my point was that Flora could parry it somewhat, since it ended up as a close duel, so that Raph can parry it that way is not something exceptional at that level. Rigaldo would as well (that's an observation from chapter 78, not a point, yet).

Originally Posted by MalakTawus

This whole "crossing swords" means nothing,especially since it's clear that Rig wasn't even fighting seriously,just playing around.Also just because he can avoid crossing swords doesn't mean that he has to do it,lol.In case you have forgotten he was way beyond them in everything,not just speed so he could fight as he pleased.Miria on the other hand probably is that great mainly in speed,infact i doubt that she has (for example) more physical power than Rachel or more stamina than Diet.Her weapon is speed so that's what she uses,Rigardo main weapon against the warriors in Pieta was....well EVERYTHING,lol.He didn't avoid to cross sword simply 'cause he didn't have any real reason to do it.

Rigaldo does seem to have been speed claymore and we actually don't know his original claymore stats. He was superior on all stats (except Jean's drill) at that point, but that's not surprising by a pure rank check. True, there's a breakdown in that both Miria and Rigaldo were both vastly superior compared to their opponents, but it's clear that Miria did better vs Rigaldo than what Rachel did vs Miria.

And I don't think Rigaldo did that much play around, he went for quick instant kills. You don't really play when you do that.

Originally Posted by MalakTawus

Seriously,don't make me laugh.
First of all we never seen Raph train simply bacause we have just seen MAYBE 5 minutes in total of her LOOOONG life (a lot of years>>>>5 mins),what did you espect?
Also this is particulary ridicolous since we actually haven't even seen the ghosts train,lol.
BUT,if you think a bit about it, it doesn't take a genius to understand that if you want to kill an abyssal you have to train (no,it's not an option,it's a forced choice)....

To put it differently in your olympic terms. For "normal" humans that live forever. You have to beat someone at high jump, it's your life's mission for some reason. You can pick the time, but only got one shot. Your opponent easily jumps 3 meter.
You with your exceptional time and training know that you might reach 2.50, instead of the 2.35 you're at.
Do you train for it? Or do you wait until your opponent is injured and can't jump properly and then do the attempt?
Edit: Also the ghosts are specified to have trained. A lot. Unlike Raph. Conclusions are that whatever Raph trained or not is not important to the story on the whole, even if it affects power levels.

Originally Posted by MalakTawus

Ehm even Rigardo was able to avoid Miria's phantom (when she wasn't tired btw....),so your theory is completely destroyed.....
Please go reread those chapters,it's obvious that you don't remember them too well since Rigardo can avoid Miria's attack just as good as Miria can avoid his attacks,Miria is not faster at all,their speed is more or less the same and if someone is MAYBE a bit faster, that someone is Rigardo since he's the one that impressed the rhythm to the battle and Miria followed as she could......

The thing is that Miria doesn't attack properly with phantom (she can't move accuratly enough). She phantom moves into position and then does a normal attack. Rigaldo was fast enough to parry her normal attack, but not the phantom itself. If he could simply beat the phantom in speed, he would be able to attack where Miria phantoms to immidiatly.
See first mirage. Rigaldo get's surprised at it and then goes aha. If he could keep up with it there would be no surprise.
So Miria is slower in general, but her phantom puts her temporarly faster. But Rigaldo was still fast enough that the temporarly boost isn't enough to get in an attack.
Think of what you wrote, if total speed is the same and one is using temporary speed boosts...

Miria using phantom does seem to be able to avoid attacks from someone who could handle the old QS btw.

[SagaraSouske]

Originally Posted by MalakTawus

I really don't understand how poeple can put what Claire did and what Jean did as the same thing.
Jean has NEVER showed that she could awaken only part of her body while keeping the rest "normal",NEVER.
I didn't say that only Claire can be brought back,i said that she's the only one that has shown to be able to do a partial awakening.
Just because Jean was able to do what she did it doesn't mean that she can awakens only parts of her body keeping the rest "human",if not (like i have already said),she should have done that in the first place: awakening just an arm should have been more than enough to free herself from that situation without risking of losing control........no matter what you say but you are plain wrong,the reason why Jean didn't do it is very simple: SHE CAN'T DO PARTIAL AWAKENING AT ALL.

She is said to possess a sense of humanity and determination greater than anyone else and she used all that willpower to resist her FULL AWAKENING.
Is that impressive? Surely.
Does it proves that she can do partial awakening? NO!!!It just means that she has crazy willpower.

Miria and the ghosts surely can't do partial awakening either since they have absolutely no knowledge of how to do it......and probably they also don't have a crazy willpower like Jean so they REALLY risk to lose themselves if they even try to do it.

If partial awakening was something that anyone can improvise,than the QS would be a very basic technique for everyone.......but we instead know that even the "simple" QS is a technique that only a monster would even dare to use it,forget partial awakening,lol (that is basically the QS concept brought to an absurd level).

I think you have different or rather very narrow definition of partial awakening where you specifically refer to Clare awaken her limbs to own Rigardo. When I am talking about partial awakening, as well as many others, we are referring to simply the general sense of body awakens but mind has not.

Awakening part of your body and keeping the rest normal is only a step in the awakening process. Generally people go from losing control to full body awaken very fast and could not hold off at are certain point of awakening like Clare. It is however very possible for Jean to partial awakened one limb at a time and Dauf's torture just keep pushing her to awaken more of her body. We don't know since we never saw the entire process. Also, when Jean is basically battling to not awaken with her entire mental effort as well as dealing with the effects of torture, there isn't anything left to exert control on her awakened limbs to free her self. She simply don't have the extra will power to do so when all she can do is keep herself from going over. The fact is in both Jean's and Clare's cases is that it's pure will power that held off their full awakening. Hence I say the comparison is similar.

Miria and Ghost never did partial awakening is because they never pushed that far. You can't say just because they never had to do it equates to they cannot do it.

It was never implied that partial awakening can be improved. It is simply awakening of body without the mind awakening. Be that one limb, two, or entire torso. Miria was on the verge but was then pulled back before partial awakening. Jean went almost all the way and held at the last line until Clare helped her. It is very possible we see one or more of the Fab4 partial awaken in the same manner as Clare. Clare is only special in the sense that the power boost she received through her limb awakening is enormous compare to Jean.

[Elandyll]

It seems to me that two different (though not unrelated) phenomenons were discussed.

What we call "partial awakening" and "Half-Awakened".

In one case, Clare has so far been the only one to be able to awaken her members at will since Pieta, while the state of Half Awakened has been attained by most of the protagonists, simply by going over their limits and reverting back, which was supposed to be deemed impossible by the org.

Now, even if it seems that only Clare has been able to do a real member-only awakening (partial awakening), what is confusing possibly is that many are actually able to use Yoki to distort their members and perform feats normally impossible.
Jean could twist her arm like an elastic band, but it's actually Helen we saw using this kind of technique first (Slashers arc, chap 27, page 12) I think.

[MalakTawus]

@Asimati

Yes. At 0% yoki testing eachother out on a full scale training duel -> Miria. Going all out for the kill (even without the QoB form), -> uncertain.

Sorry but this phrase is beyond my comprension,what were you trying to say?

It can be more to QS, but it's not beyond what happens going from 0% yoki to 100%.

I don't want to be rude but it seems that you are using google translation in your post,i don't understand.....and i could understand your previos posts,what happened?
Just to be clear,i'm not making fun of you (since also the english in my posts is far from perfect,lol),i really have some difficulty to understand some of your phrases.

Anyway, my point was that Flora could parry it somewhat, since it ended up as a close duel, so that Raph can parry it that way is not something exceptional at that level.

I see your point,but the only reason that Flora was able to parry is only thanx to the fact that she was able to use the WC,Raph is parrying Claire's WC without using any special technique,it's simply her basic speed.......also i also could point out that Flora wasn't really able to completely parry Claire's technique,and the two weren't even using their techniques with killing intentions.....

And I don't think Rigaldo did that much play around, he went for quick instant kills. You don't really play when you do that.

You don't get it.There is an huge difference between the way Rigardo fought and the way firia fought.Like i have already said Miria was trying from the very beginning to do a perfect evasion action since that's her real advantage against all those claymores....Rigardo on the other hand had absolutely no reason to do a full evasion action in the first place,the warriors in Pieta were simply nothing for him.

To put it differently in your olympic terms. For "normal" humans that live forever. You have to beat someone at high jump, it's your life's mission for some reason. You can pick the time, but only got one shot. Your opponent easily jumps 3 meter.
You with your exceptional time and training know that you might reach 2.50, instead of the 2.35 you're at.
Do you train for it? Or do you wait until your opponent is injured and can't jump properly and then do the attempt?
Edit: Also the ghosts are specified to have trained. A lot. Unlike Raph. Conclusions are that whatever Raph trained or not is not important to the story on the whole, even if it affects power levels.

This is stupid,if you want to even hope to kill an abyssal you have to train continually to be at your absolute best,it's incredible as you pretend to not understand something so obvious.
Even if Raph can't increase a lot her basic abilities (since they are already great),she can always refine her techniques and increase her experience and these two things can change A LOT the total strenght of a warrior.

The thing is that Miria doesn't attack properly with phantom (she can't move accuratly enough). She phantom moves into position and then does a normal attack. Rigaldo was fast enough to parry her normal attack, but not the phantom itself. If he could simply beat the phantom in speed, he would be able to attack where Miria phantoms to immidiatly.

And if Miria's phantom was really as fast as you say,all Miria had to do was trying an "impale" attack.
There is absolutely no indication that Miria was faster than Rigardo,you are just making things up.
Rigardo himself said that Miria was just as fast as him,so stop inventing things.
...and before you say that he could have lied,you should remember that he had no problem admitting that Claire was A LOT faster than him.....

Rigaldo get's surprised at it and then goes aha. If he could keep up with it there would be no surprise.

And that would be your hint?
Rigardo was simply surprised to see that there was someone as fast as him.That was surely enough for him to be surprised considering that he belived that all his opponents were unbelivably weak(compared to him).

@SagaraSouske

I think you have different or rather very narrow definition of partial awakening where you specifically refer to Clare awaken her limbs to own Rigardo. When I am talking about partial awakening, as well as many others, we are referring to simply the general sense of body awakens but mind has not.

Than i'll be more clear: what i call "partial awakening" is what Claire did against Rigardo,the QoB mode.....and Claire is the only one to be able to do something like that,no doubt about it.

So wait a second,are you saying that when some people talk about the ghosts' partial awakening against the 3 ZAOs,are actually speculating that the ghosts will fully awaken keeping their human mind???? Impossible,it's more probable that aliens come down from the sky and help the ghosts,lol.

It is however very possible for Jean to partial awakened one limb at a time and Dauf's torture just keep pushing her to awaken more of her body. We don't know since we never saw the entire process.

No,it doesn't work like this. Willpower is not everything,you have to actually know how to "redirect" your yoki power inside your body and this is obviously a VERY DIFFICULT thing to do,if not there will be tons of warriors going around using the QS.
No one beside Claire and Irene know how to do something like that,so no one else can do a partial awakening.
Jean has the willpower but there is no reason to belive that her awakening affected her whole body at the same time.
If not you people should explain to me why the hell she didn't use partial awakening to free herself, i already asked but it seems that you people pretend to not see this obvious contradiction in you theory....

Miria and Ghost never did partial awakening is because they never pushed that far. You can't say just because they never had to do it equates to they cannot do it.

Ehm,generally it's the other way around.Warriors have to prove to be able to do something,untill they prove it than it's right to conclude that they can't.
If not we can go around saying that it's not so strange for Claire to use Helen drill technique (for example),and to all the people that says to me that she obviously can't i could simply reply that just because she never used it it doesn't mean that she can't do it,maybe she never felt the need to do it......you get it the absurd logic in your way of thinking,right?
Sorry but it's plain absurd,there is not even a little hint that could suggest that there is someone beside Claire capable of doing something comparable to the QoB mode....

Clare is only special in the sense that the power boost she received through her limb awakening is enormous compare to Jean.

No, Claire is special also because she is the ONLY one to know a technique directly connected to the "partial awakening" concept,and she is also the ONLY one to have a special body.
It's really incredible how you forgot those two "little" differences with all the others,lol.
Do you really think that the differences in Claire's body are not important?Ok.....

[ATM]

Originally Posted by MalakTawus

In fact for what we know not even Claire can do a full awakening and come back...

No one can do a full awakening and comeback, you can’t return from the other side when you become the other side. I haven’t seen such a thing through the whole manga and it’s like saying that a Claymore can revert to being 100% human again. Maybe in the future I will see these paradigms broken, but right now it’s what it is.

I disagree with you Jean#9; your post was not long. You and SagaraSouske managed to say in one post what I’ve been trying to say with my past 3 posts and your thoughts are better organized than mine. I will like to add that when someone fully awakens, it loses something (soul, spirit, I don’t really know what it is) that doesn’t allow them to go back. Lots of awakened can take (mimic) human form, but that doesn’t mean they are humans or claymores once again; they are like a different species.

I have a few definitions of my own, it’s the way I see them, until someone with proper proof comes and shatters my world I will keep believing them to be correct; they are very basic.
Humans: They are known for being humans.
Claymores: They are half human, half yoma. How they come to be? Through a unique scientific procedure in which a human is stuffed with yoma flesh. In a rare case you can make one by stuffing the recycled flesh of another claymore.
Awakened Beings: They are none of the above. How they come to be? Used to be human/yoma that experienced a full awakening process.


Going further because I know you are stil skeptical I want to analyze some of Rubel’s words:

“awakened form”. He is talking about the full physical transmutation of Alicia’s body. “Keep her spirit” He’s saying that this is what allows you to control a partial awakening, (not the flow of youki into your body and the quicksword like you say, that maybe true for fighting while under a partial awakening, but not for sustaining or achieving a partial awakening) and then regress to your normal self in this case Beth is doing this for Alicia; and yes in the case of the twins the process was called soul link; in Jeans case it’s just call guts and willpower, and I agree with SagaraSouske she was trashed earlier by Riful which makes it a more admirable feat. “Awakens completely or whether she is able to return properly ” He’s giving a choice, 2 possible outcomes out of the same situation, you either fully awaken and become an awakened being or you go back to being you.

A few pages ago you said that Jean fully awakened but that is not the case:

Originally Posted by MalakTawus

You base your speculation on something that simply isn't true,Jean did a full awakening,not a partial.

Why tell SagaraSouske that he is just wrong before checking if what hes saying it's true?


So Malak, going back to what you said to SagaraSouske; your words: “no matter what you say but you are plain wrong, the reason why Jean didn’t do it is very simple: SHE CAN’T DO A PARTIAL AWAKENING AT ALL”. Jean developed an awakened body and was able to return properly because she kept her spirit intact; but if she didn’t do a partial awakening as you say, and certainly she did not do a full awakening, then what the heck did she do?

Malak why do you keep saying that only someone who knows the quick blade can achieve a partial awakening, what about all the twins and Jean, they didn’t know the quick sword and yet they did a physical awakening. Why link something like that to just a skill, quicksword is powerful, but is it the only ensured way to get a physical awakening, err no that would be lame! In previous exchanges (past threads) that we had you have been objective and I don't see that now. Even if what you say is true, why can't other learn like Clare, she didn't wanted to teach them? does she gets envious that the might learn suck a great skill? Why the fear of them doing partial awakenings I'm sure that each characters fan is thrilled to see one, as long as they can go back to being claymores.

Gxy and Malak, I don’t know why you feel that Clare’s leading role is threatened by the ghost’s partially awakening, it does not necessarily cheapen the story. Don’t you guys think that Clare always gets the best stuff? Doesn’t she get tire of owning everybody in almost everything? I’m sure that Clare would approve and be happy if they achieve their partial awakenings, she won’t mind the competition because she still will be the master. Anything that makes the ghosts stronger has to be a positive thing, and they need a lot of that now that they are facing a very difficult situation; and don’t you guys want to see a six arm Miria, or a giant slinky Helen or a Deneve with an oversized brain? Maybe not, but they have to get really cool shapes I’m sure.

The ghosts have trained with discipline, shedding sweat and blood and are ready to shine, plus they are ghosts not shadows of Clare or anybody else.

[Asimati]

Originally Posted by MalakTawus

Sorry but this phrase is beyond my comprension,what were you trying to say?

I don't want to be rude but it seems that you are using google translation in your post,i don't understand.....and i could understand your previos posts,what happened?
Just to be clear,i'm not making fun of you (since also the english in my posts is far from perfect,lol),i really have some difficulty to understand some of your phrases.

You're not the first (I mix that with getting compliments of my English oddly enough ). I probably end up cutting too much corners to shorten it down and not seeing the that the loss of information is too high. English is my second language.

Anyway, the long version. According to Deneave:
Miria vs Claire in a duel like the one vs Flora, but still only at 0% yoki. Miria would win.
Miria's evil twin vs Claire and one has to die. Uncertain outcome, since Claire starts to pull some weird moves at this point.
In any case, Miria and Claire is repeatadly refered to be fairly close in power (Miata, Pricilla (pre-ghost training admittably), and Helen's who will win question). And Claire isn't exactly outstating Cynthia either, when it comes to running.

And for the other one. WC is a low yoki move, while QS is a high yoki move. A 100% yoki release QS is equal to an AB attack power wise. So a 100% QS can be equal to a theoretical 100% WC (that can't be done in practice) and still make so much difference as Claire's QS did compared to the WC on Raphela. Can the QS be even stronger than that? Yes, but there's no need for it to be that to explain the results, unless we get more data.

Originally Posted by MalakTawus

You don't get it.There is an huge difference between the way Rigardo fought and the way firia fought.Like i have already said Miria was trying from the very beginning to do a perfect evasion action since that's her real advantage against all those claymores....Rigardo on the other hand had absolutely no reason to do a full evasion action in the first place,the warriors in Pieta were simply nothing for him.

Fair enough. I think we both agree on the lowest level I gave in a previous post, even if I still say that my interpretation is consistant with what we already know.

Originally Posted by MalakTawus

This is stupid,if you want to even hope to kill an abyssal you have to train continually to be at your absolute best,it's incredible as you pretend to not understand something so obvious.
Even if Raph can't increase a lot her basic abilities (since they are already great),she can always refine her techniques and increase her experience and these two things can change A LOT the total strenght of a warrior.

You do have a good point and I'm going on a hunch and say that it's a bit overlooked by Yagi, since it's the most reasonable thing. But it still depends on how her motivation looks like. My point is that from her perspective, being at your absolute best will never be enough. She's never been displayed as a training freak afterwards.
My main purpose is mainly to link her together with Luci to be able to compare how strong the AO:s was as claymores. If Raph's gone and became much stronger than that, it ruins that link into a more confusing state, since that would mean that an AO Raph would be the strongest AO and starts to break claymore Claire a bit as well (the Queen of Blades (QoB) version is already broken).

I do wonder at what point Raph got that all A stats then. It's one of those things that makes her feel like a baseline.

Originally Posted by MalakTawus

And if Miria's phantom was really as fast as you say,all Miria had to do was trying an "impale" attack.
There is absolutely no indication that Miria was faster than Rigardo,you are just making things up.
Rigardo himself said that Miria was just as fast as him,so stop inventing things.
...and before you say that he could have lied,you should remember that he had no problem admitting that Claire was A LOT faster than him.....

I'm gonna repeat myself, since it's pretty much the base of my point. Miria uses burst speed to keep up to Rigaldo.
But she's not constantly in burst speed, so her baseline has to be slower than Rigaldo and her bursts faster. Say that Rigaldo got total constant speed of 10 and Miria got total speed 10. Since Miria's speed is the sum of two different components, the normal speed and the burst, the burst (aka phantom) has to be above 10 and the normal speed below 10 for the average to be 10.
Thus the phantom phase has to be faster than Rigaldo, even if Miria is not.

[SagaraSouske]

@Malak, I disagree about Clare's "limb awakening" is at will. First she didn't control such awakening. She just wanted more power and it drove her towards awakening her limbs first but her mind is more driven in defeating Rigardo such that her full awakening was put on hold until she destroyed Rigardo. After that, she continues to awaken until Jean pulled her back. Thus it's just a normal awakening process that we see except in a slower fashion because she was able to somewhat stop right after her limbs awakened. This is by no means a controlled partial awakening of her limbs. Jean simply went further then Clare in her awakening process, although her impetus of awakening was from torture rather then a burning desire to protect others at all cost. However, both went beyond any other warrior has gone and was able to pull back with help from each other. There is a reason for Clare to save Jean in the manner she did. It is to parallel how Jean pull Clare back from that same awakening state. Without showing how Clare helped Jean return to normal, Jean's save on Clare could be viewed as MC plot armor. The two situations, despite with different circumstances, are very similar.

Clare's limb awakening is simply a state between going over the limit (80%) and Full awakening. Any of the Fab 4 can achieve it except only Clare pushed that far. Jean proved that one without prior half awakening can also achieve such a state and it is a matter of will power. The only thing special, as I said, is how much power boost Clare receives when she reach that state. This is to hint at her future potential to clash with Priscilla. Jean on the other hand do not have such power boost from body awakening and nor could she spare any mental fortitude towards freeing herself when all she can focus on is preventing herself from complete awakening. There is no contradiction at all as to why she didn't free herself.

Clare 'did not' know a 'technique' to partial awakening her limbs. Where did you get this idea from? She simply desired more power and her mind is only focused on that and pushed herself to start awakening. Just because she was pulled back by Jean's sacrifice does not mean she was able to control it. It was desperation that drove her to do what she did and people expected the same desperation to drive Miria down the same path. However she didn't need to yet because in this chapter the reinforcement arrived. But the upcoming battle may once again force her down that path.

Edit:
I see that you are confusing the principle behind Clare's QS with her limb awakening. QS is worded as a 100% youki release in one's arm. It isn't actually awakening. Clare's limb awakening has nothing to do with her learning QS.