2012-05-18, 19:27 | Link #81 |
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Languages evolve by expanding and correctly adapting terms and concepts new or foreign to them, not by corrupting and misusing them into something partially familiar to their speakers. They also evolve by simplifying necessary grammatical artifacts that are no longer necessary.
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2012-05-18, 19:43 | Link #82 | |
Romanticist
Join Date: Aug 2009
Age: 33
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If so, would that mean that languages that adopt foreign words then subsequently indigenizing those terms to the country's culture are actually not evolved, but rather corrupted? So what becomes the standard for determining what is "necessary" for a given context? Wouldn't that fall back to subjective interpretation?
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2012-05-18, 21:51 | Link #83 | |
Japanese Culture Fan
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Planet Earth
Age: 33
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There's no way to tell. You still haven't answered the most important part of my post, so I'll repeat it: what word do you propose to replace the original Japanese meaning which is a manga that is published in a shounen magazine? In other words, if we agree to use "shounen" to mean manga and anime which heavily include battles and competitions, what should we use for the original meaning? Using the same word to mean both things won't solve anything and will just keep people confused. Triple_R also brings up another point which is closely related: if shounen becomes a genre, what becomes of other demographic labels such as seinen and josei? Seinen in particular is impossible to pin into any genre, as it associated with contrasting types of manga such as Berserk and A-Channel. Even if we may be outnumbered, I don't think it's hopeless to spread awareness of the difference between manga demographics and genres. I myself used to think that shounen always has a competitive side to it. If you treat shounen as a genre on /a/, probably the biggest and most influential discussion board for anime, you'll be laughed at and corrected. One simple way to spread awareness is just to popularize shounen manga that defy what people expect from shounen, such as Lucky Star and Aria. The more people who like these shounen manga (and the anime adapted from them), the less they will associate the word "shounen" with battles and competitions. |
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2012-05-18, 22:17 | Link #84 | ||
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"Konnichiwa minnasan, I am super genki after watching such a moe mahou shoujo kicking ass!" "Good day everyone, I am super excited (lit.: energetic) after watching such a cute (liberally translated) magic girl (literally translated) kicking ass!" Do you believe that the first sentence is acceptable If one wants to address an audience watching anime, he could keep some terms to avoid TL notes, for example: "Good day everyone, I am hyper after watching such a "moe mahou shoujo" kicking ass!" And I don't even want to recall what atrocities are committed in programming documentation from using english terms in german and greek Most countries have a committee or institution that does exactly that along with organizing language exams and issuing certificates of proficiency in a languages. |
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2012-05-18, 22:19 | Link #85 | ||
Romanticist
Join Date: Aug 2009
Age: 33
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I don't concern myself with questions about how language "should be". Questions regarding suitable alternatives to terms are discarded in favor of looking at what is being used. Supposing calling "shounen" a genre comes into fashion, a suitable alternative will come about as a natural consequence (but in all likelihood, it will probably remain unchanged). It all comes down to your own subjective position whether the evolution of language "should be controlled" or it "should be left to evolve". Quote:
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2012-05-18, 22:25 | Link #86 | ||||||
Sekiroad-Idols Sing Twice
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Is it possible the term Shōnen is currently undergoing the semantic drift process? The word started as a demographic indicator, obviously, but now it's also perceived as its own genre. The latter usage of Shōnen is at least frequent enough to be this noticeable so I'm inclined to think it is changing. You also said that Japan wouldn't change its usage of Shōnen. Among the magazine publishers, the term probably wouldn't change. However, what about the audience itself? Quote:
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2012-05-18, 22:33 | Link #87 | ||
Romanticist
Join Date: Aug 2009
Age: 33
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The problem with your example is that that way of using terms is not widely accepted. If, hypothetically, that way of talking was popular in some large enough group, then there would be nothing wrong with using it within the group. Quote:
Language changes depending on context. For example, one possible context is academic in nature where the members comprising it use strict formal English. Another context is with friends, which is likely a great deal more informal, maybe with slang. Even if we try to cut down the use of a language to something fixed, it will always change (or, in your terms, be misused) according to the people you're communicating with.
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2012-05-18, 22:48 | Link #89 | |
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Just be content that almost all anime are filled with shounen shoujos |
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2012-05-18, 23:19 | Link #90 | |
Romanticist
Join Date: Aug 2009
Age: 33
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While I believe that linguistic diversity is a valuable thing, there will always be those who want a standardized language that every one should use to be seen as "correct". It's not a disagreement that can be settled easily.
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2012-05-19, 00:39 | Link #91 | |
Me at work
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I don't see how it remaining unchanged is a suitable alternative. If shonen is used to describe both demographic and genre it's just going to cause confusion and the debate won't ever go away.
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2012-05-19, 01:15 | Link #92 | ||||||||
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This is just my opinion, so take it for what it's worth. Here are three core principles that I think would be helpful here: 1) Language should evolve to combat an overabundance of redundancy (i.e. too many words meaning exactly the same thing, so if society can take one of those words and give it a slightly different meaning, then that's a good thing). 2) Language should evolve so that words that almost nobody uses any more are either updated with new meanings, or are allowed to fall into the mists of history and historical works (a good example of this is when the term "gay" - at one time, pretty much unheard of outside of Christmas carols - changed from its original meaning to mean "of a homosexual orientation", and now that word gets a lot more practical use than it used to). 3) Language should evolve to account for genuinely brand new things that we didn't have before (i.e. the internet circa the 90s, for example) These three core principles alone will ensure that language is constantly changing, refining, and updating itself. But these three core principles can also help ensure that language doesn't create too much counterproductive term drift. Favoring "precision of meaning" over "frequency of usage" doesn't necessarily mean that words remain stagnant. In some cases, it actually means that they will change (as happened with "Fantasy"). Now, let's look at the term "Shounen" as a demographic indicator. Is there too many words meaning exactly the same thing as "Shounen" does? No, not really. Is the word "Shounen" still frequently used with reference to its demographic meaning? Yes, it is. So it's not a dying word like "gay" was prior to being widely used to mean "of a homosexual orientation". Has "Shouen" itself changed in such a way that it's demographic meaning no longer properly "accounts for new things"? No, not really. So here's a term that should stay the way it is, imo. Now, with "Fantasy"... Did "Fantasy" itself change in such a way that it's original meaning no longer properly "accounted for new things"? Yes, it did. The explosion in Tolkien-style Fantasy works and the explosion in Sci-Fi Works were the "new things" in question. That called for a more precise meaning for practical classification purposes. So here's a term that was right to change. Quote:
A lot of more casual English-speaking anime/manga fans likely notice certain similarities in the most popular shounen titles (especially those in Shounen Jump) so they think "Aha! Then this must mean that 'shounen' is a genre! It's a genre devoted to competition/battle, just like DBZ, Bleach, Naruto, and One Piece all have." It's a perfectly understandable conclusion to arrive at, and so I wouldn't criticize somebody unfamiliar with Japanese demographic terms for arriving at it. But it doesn't make it the right conclusion, of course. What it means, imo, is that those of us who are familiar with the demographic meaning for "Shounen" should politely convey that to anime fans when they mistakenly use it as a genre label. As people become more well-informed, you may well see fewer and fewer people using "Shounen" as a genre label. Quote:
I don't think that "shounen" is there yet, though. Quote:
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Like I just wrote to Qilin above, I think this is just a case of perfectly understandable ignorance causing problems. The good thing here is that in the process of correcting people who misuse "shounen", you'll also make them more well-versed on the anime/manga world as a whole, and that's a positive in and of itself. Quote:
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Besides, who says it's going to stop here? With this in mind, let me borrow off of a certain famous scene in a Sci-Fi movie... Akito Kinomoto Sloane: Triple_R, let it go! Go along with "Shounen" being a genre. Triple_R Picard: No! Noooooooo!!! (Triple_R breaks the Haruhi stained-glass window and model Gundams with his life-sized Sayaka sword replica) Triple_R Picard: I will not sacrifice "Shounen". We've made too many sacrifices already, too many retreats. They invade our Slice of Life, and we fall back. They assimilate "moe" to mean whatever they want it to mean, and we fall back. Not again. The line must be drawn here! This far, no farther! I think it's time for anime fans to take a page out of Jean-Luc Picard's book and start drawing lines. If you don't nip counterproductive term drift in the bud in its early stages, by the time we get around to it, it might be too late. Quote:
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Last edited by Triple_R; 2012-05-19 at 01:38. |
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2012-05-19, 04:34 | Link #93 | |||
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I wonder if Shōnen gaining this dichotomy was an inevitable consequence of it being so closely related to a certain type of content in the first place as this article seems to suggest. Meanwhile, because "mecha", "romance", and "science-fiction" are their own genres already I don't see how they would be misused so egregiously as to be subject to the slippery slope. Indeed, is it even mentally possible to seriously label K-On! as a science-fiction anime? Quote:
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2012-05-19, 05:02 | Link #95 | ||||
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"Among the magazine publishers, the term probably wouldn't change." - Akito_Kinomoto. Well, there you go. Also, going by your own Wiki link, those informers are entirely correct, and using Shounen as a genre label is attributed to "confusion" (i.e. it's considered a *mistake*). And what is one of the reasons why it is considered a mistake? "It is because of this general trend in popular shōnen manga that the term "shōnen" is often confused as being a genre, despite the fact that many shōnen manga do not follow this trend at all." If "shonen" becomes understood as a genre label instead as of a demographic, the result is a classification nightmare for "many shonen manga that do not follow this trend at all". Also, how does one respond to "confusion"? By clarifying things and providing actual facts, that's how. Another way is by valuing precision in word/term meanings. Well, that's exactly what I'm advocating here. Quote:
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There's some highly popular shonen titles that are not Battle Manga. Shifting "Shounen" into a genre label would potentially leave these titles in no-man's land, creating problems like the one totoum ran into. That's a problem worth avoiding, isn't it? Quote:
I don't find that argument compelling in the least. I strongly stand by the arguments I've made in this thread.
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Last edited by Triple_R; 2012-05-19 at 05:22. |
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2012-05-19, 06:12 | Link #96 | ||
Romanticist
Join Date: Aug 2009
Age: 33
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How will these "consistently-applied principles" come about? You listed your own core principles concerning this, but don't they just amount to your own personal standards? If so, how can we weigh it against the loads of other subjective standards that also exist out there? The way I see it, everything still boils down to utter subjectivity, albeit in a different way. Quote:
However, I also believe that that isn't how it goes in a real world context much of the time. Instead, popularity becomes the only real measuring stick for determining a term's value. With that in mind, I assume that fighting a losing battle against the tide would introduce more problems by hindering the process of the term's usage becoming homogenous within the community. Homogeneity of usage means that a term' usage is more-or-less shared by the members of the entire community. Suitable or not, the only question I concern myself is if the term is shared among a large enough group of people. Suitability is a secondary concern of mine compared to frequency of usage, if my arguments weren't indicative of that.
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Last edited by Qilin; 2012-05-19 at 06:55. |
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2012-05-19, 09:43 | Link #99 | |||
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Really think about the 2nd and 3rd principles I listed. Don't they tend to occur organically, without much need for any dictionary or thesaurus to push them forward? The 3rd Principle ("Language should evolve to account for genuinely brand new things that we didn't have before") tends to occur through sheer necessity. The main blockage to this may be purists who are attached to a particular meaning of a word even after it's become much less functional than newer alternatives. But these purists won't stand up to word change if there's good, practical reason for the word change. Hence, why "Fantasy" now tends to carry with it the implied meaning of Tolkien-style Fantasy. The 2nd Principle ("Language should evolve so that words that almost nobody uses any more are either updated with new meanings, or are allowed to fall into the mists of history and historical works") also tends to occur naturally. If certain words are rarely used any more, they usually either end up getting revived by an updated meaning, or they do in fact fall into the mists of history (at least as far as everyday conversation is concerned - Academia can be an exception here). Now, my 1st Principle is admittedly a personal preference. But I threw it out there because I think a lot of people would agree with it. Quote:
More efficient language = More efficient communication Less efficient language = Less efficient communication More efficient communication = Good for the world. Less efficient communication = Bad for the world. Now, does anybody seriously disagree with those four equations above? I dare say that they're more objective truth than subjective opinion. Well, when popularity goes up against what's objectively better for language use, I'll go with what's objectively better. Popularity doesn't make something right. That being said, if the only reason people didn't want "Shounen" to turn into a genre label was some sort of nostalgic attachment to "Shounen" as a demographic indicator, then I'd probably agree with you on "Shounen". But that's not what's happening on this thread. Vexx, Tempester, totoum, Malkuth, and others have all elaborated on practical problems that "shounen" shifting to a genre label understanding would cause. Totoum even gave a clear-cut example of a real problem that's already occurred. Quote:
So this sort of homogenous term shift simply isn't possible any time soon. It's almost certainly not going to happen. So what will happen is either... 1) The anime fan community becomes better-informed on the demographic meaning of shounen, and over time and the effort of people to correct the misuse of the term, the anime fan community all eventually get on the same page with that demographic meaning, or... 2) The anime fan community doesn't become better-informed on the demographic meaning of shounen and/or insists on using it as a genre label in any event, which will create divisions within the anime community (primarily Japanese vs. non-Japanese) and will create loads of confusion (even at the local manga store, where all of a sudden K-On! and Azumanga Daioh! are now declared to be Shoujo, which by the way would help create a general public perception that these titles must be for girls; is that really a message you want the general public to be receiving on these titles?). Given these two options, I strongly prefer the first one.
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2012-05-19, 10:57 | Link #100 |
Gamilas Falls
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Republic of California
Age: 46
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Confusion within fanbases on an international level is one thing. Confusion on the internet is a similar thing. But confusion in business is another thing and is bad for business.
You don't want to confuse costumers that come to buy something and they can't find it because the store picked one version over another while their competition picked the other version. It would be best to have a uniform version in business, or to drop the term (which is functionally meaningless verses other existing terms is their home languages).
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