Naruto without the Kyuubi

[Nine Devil]

Originally Posted by Shadamehr

That's exactly what I was trying to say. Sorry if I wasn't clear, I did not mean that Rasengan uses less chakra and is thus weaker. What I was saying is that Rasengan allows you to use little chakra or a lot of chakra depending on how much damage you want to do. In contrast, chidori demands that you use a lot of chakra to begin with, and is always a big attack. Thus, Sasuke only gets to practice the Chidori twice a day, but Naruto can use smaller Rasengans while he is learning the technique, then ramp it up and push in as much of his chakra as he wants when he is in a fight.

Right and wrong

You can decide how much chakra you want to put in Rasengan as well as Chidori. But Naruto had to use all of his chakra, cuz if i remember correctly Jiraiya said it.

[Shadamehr]

Originally Posted by Nine Devil

Right and wrong

You can decide how much chakra you want to put in Rasengan as well as Chidori. But Naruto had to use all of his chakra, cuz if i remember correctly Jiraiya said it.

Can you quote the issue and page? That doesn't seem right since there are multiple instances of Naruto doing a Rasengan and still having chakra left, during training and in later use. He uses all his chakra against Kabuto, but hey, if I were in that situation I would too. For example, when they come across the four Sound nins, he charges up a Rasengan as a distraction and he's fine after that.

[Muad'Dib]

I think he meant that for part of Naruto's training Jiraiya told Naruto to put all of his effort into it--because at that stage Naruto needed brute power.

[UchihaNick]

there is no point in putting all chakra in it

the more chakra the harder it is to use it.

well we all know naruto, so we do know he has a lot of his own chakra, and then there is kyuubi, like kabuto said, he IS a monster if he learns how to control it, and damn, he learned

[Muad'Dib]

Kind of restating what you just said, when Kabuto said that Naruto could become a monster in the forest of death, Naruto was completely cut off from the chakra of the nine-tails.

So, what does everybody thinks this could mean in light of this thread?

[Lexander]

Well his chakra is becoming more and more stable. I imagine is he was without Kyubi he would not do so bad, just because he would have so much better chakra control. The kid wastes tremendous amounts of chakra. I mean he can create thousands of shadow clones 'with' really bad chakra control. He has insane amounts of his own chakra. So you can say that in a way he is a genius, just because he was blessed with so much chakra. He created ridiculous amounts of shadow clones and still had enough chakra to summon gamabunta. Kakashi does 4 chidoris and he's out.

[hob]

Edit: (wrong quote, talking to chosen about his post on the first page)

But you don't know how Naruto's heart would work if he hadn't passed though all he's been passing. He might have become a selfish bastard who didn't care about noone. What I'm trying to say is that experiences do change people and even a slight change in history is enough to change a persons mind completly. I'm not going like "Oh Naruto is only 133t c0z Kyubii rox0rz!!!11" I'm saying that the most logic ending for him without the demon is the regular ninja way (But still very very talented).

[Soju]

Without the kyuubi I think Naruto would be much weaker. For example, compare him to two people -- Sasuke and Neji. Keep in mind that when Kakashi said that Naruto had much more chakra in him than Sasuke and possibly himself, he knew about the ninetails.

Even without the incredibly huge (HUGE) power boost from the kyuubi, Sasuke was better than Naruto for most of the manga, and is only now being overshadowed by him. And it's not like Sasuke had his family to train him or something (lol).

Same with Neji. Without the kyuubi's (direct) chakra, Neji totally ripped Naruto apart. Even with the chakra of the kyuubi, Naruto won barely. Once again, it's not like Neji is learning everything he knows through proffesional tutors, after all, he developed the kaiten and 64 hands on his own only after seeing it or hearing about it.

What has Naruto developed? Sexy no jutsu. While hilarious, it is not exactly your uber combat technique. Most of Naruto's battles, he has done one thing -- create a gigantic number of kage bunshin and stall until he has time to think of a plan. This would be absolutely impossible without the kyuubi -- a prodigy like Kakashi, who is also a Jounin, can create less clones then him. Sure, he's come up with some pretty good plans, ie Naruto & Sasuke vs. Zabuza, but still... remember what that plan was in the first place? Naruto created a ton of shadow clones, and sent them to attack Zabuza which was a diversion. Once again relying on the chakra of the kyuubi.

IMO he'd be about as strong as Kiba without the kyuubi.

[rorosama]

i think he'd be powerful but not the most powerful genin now. I'd say he and neji and sasuke would be a tie. He definetly would have lost the neji and haku fight without the fox. The gaara fight maybe would've been won because of his determination.

[avmoghe]

He would be the worthless loser that he is. About as good as Kiba is like someone said earlier.

He would be nowhere near the elites like Neji or Sasuke (EVEN if you take away their bloodline abilities).

[socomberetta]

Originally Posted by Nine Devil

You can decide how much chakra you want to put in Rasengan as well as Chidori.

I dont think its true that you can decide how much energy you can put into the chidori. From what Kakashi says about his own 4 chidori a day limit, it seems as though there is a set amount of chakra that you need to expel in order to create the chidori. If there were a way to control how much chakra to put into a chidori, Kakashi would be able to create more than just 4.

Originally Posted by Soju

Even without the incredibly huge (HUGE) power boost from the kyuubi, Sasuke was better than Naruto for most of the manga, and is only now being overshadowed by him. And it's not like Sasuke had his family to train him or something (lol).

He was better in the past only because of Naruto's crappy chakra control, thanks to Kyubi's chakra. And, he was not as determined as Sasuke was back in the Academy.

The Kyubi's chakra is both a blessing and a gift for Naruto. He has an incredible amount of chakra, but with such a large amount, he has terrible chakra control and uses way more than is needed. IMO, if he were born without the Kyubi's chakra, he would be Sasuke's equal or better.

[Retta]

about the chidori thing, that you can't decide how much chakra you want in it. thats wrong.

when and sasuke and naruto was gonna have a duell on the roof off the hospital. kakashi said that he put so much chakra in it so he could kill him. If sasuke wanted he wouldnt put that much in it. DONE!

Anyway, he could perform more chidori. But he can only perform 2 chidoris if his gonna go for it real, i mean put enough chakra for tryin to defeat his enemy. He could make less damage with it, but what good would that do.

Naruto have more talent then any other. With Kyuubi he got an advantage, like the sharingan and other bloodline stuff. (heard it b4?).

[rikudark]

Okay, this may belong on another thread, but I think it fits pretty well in this one. Naruto's family would have played a big part in his life if Kyuubi hadn't come along. From what I've seen of the story, Im starting to believe two things:
1- Naruto's mother died in childbirth
2- Naruto's father was Hokage the 4th
The reason I believe this is because they said that Naruto's father died fighting Kyuubi and that Hokage looks so much like Naruto. Also, if not, then why Naruto? Just a random selection?
Anyways, being raised by that Hokage definately wouldn't have left Naruto weak. If anything, he would probably be alot like Konohamaru, only with the superior chakra stamina that he has as well as being smart when it counts. And if I'm wrong, then he would still be left with a ninja father, no mother, and a huge amount of chakra stamina...maybe not a genius, but a good ninja that way anyways.

[sendoh_kenshin]

Originally Posted by rikudark

Okay, this may belong on another thread, but I think it fits pretty well in this one. Naruto's family would have played a big part in his life if Kyuubi hadn't come along. From what I've seen of the story, Im starting to believe two things:
1- Naruto's mother died in childbirth
2- Naruto's father was Hokage the 4th
The reason I believe this is because they said that Naruto's father died fighting Kyuubi and that Hokage looks so much like Naruto. Also, if not, then why Naruto? Just a random selection?
Anyways, being raised by that Hokage definately wouldn't have left Naruto weak. If anything, he would probably be alot like Konohamaru, only with the superior chakra stamina that he has as well as being smart when it counts. And if I'm wrong, then he would still be left with a ninja father, no mother, and a huge amount of chakra stamina...maybe not a genius, but a good ninja that way anyways.

Where'd you get the 'they said that Naruto's father died fighting Kyuubi'??

As far as I remember, it still remains unknown about the relationship between Naruto and the Yondaime.


[EDIT]

[Nine Devil]

Originally Posted by socomberetta

I dont think its true that you can decide how much energy you can put into the chidori. From what Kakashi says about his own 4 chidori a day limit, it seems as though there is a set amount of chakra that you need to expel in order to create the chidori. If there were a way to control how much chakra to put into a chidori, Kakashi would be able to create more than just 4.

No you can decide how much chakra you put into it.

[Muad'Dib]

Originally Posted by sendoh_kenshin

Where'd you get the 'they said that Naruto's father died fighting Kyuubi'??

As far as I remember, it still remains unknown about the relationship between Naruto and the Yondaime.

Yeah, they haven't said that. But, we can deduce a couple of things:

1) Naruto's mother died during the time of the Kyuubi attack. (Naruto was a newborn when it was sealed within him.)

2) Naruto's father died not more than 9 months before Kyuubi's sealilng/Naruto's birth. (No brainer--birds and the bees, etc.)

I think that if the Yondaime is not Naruto's father, there is going to be some important relationship. When Naruto summoned Gamabunta against Shukaku, he was poised -exactly- as we've seen the 4th poised on Gamabunta. Also, when Naruto falls from the headblow, we get a shot that shows him looking uncannily like the 4th. While what I'm talking about could just be coincidences, they felt like they were deliberately put there.

On a sadder note, if Naruto had not the Kyuubi, it's very possible he would have never failed out of the academy, so he'd never even have to compete with Neji or Sasuke.

[Hunter]

Originally Posted by UchihaNick

there is no point in putting all chakra in it

the more chakra the harder it is to use it.

No it's wrong, the chakra of the Kyubi's harder to control because it's wilder than normal chakra, not because there is much of it.

And yeah, it was said several times in the manga that Naruto used as much chakra as he could when he trained for the Rasengan, that's the main point of the 2nd step.

Naruto concentrated so much chakra from his hand in order to pass the 2nd step that he burnt it.

Secondly even if it's off topic, you can put as much chakra as you want into a Chidori, as you can put more chakra into any jutsu using directly the chakra as a weapon like the Kaiten or the Rasengan.
The Chidori of Sasuke against Itachi or the Kaiten of Hiashi are good examples of that.
It's just that you don't need to put an absolutely gigantic amount of chakra around your hand to kill somebody.

You can probably create a destructive sphere of chakra of 1 meter radius around your hand if you have enough chakra but what's the point?

Naruto (if he's a normal human and not some kind of reincarnation/clone/whatever) without the Kyubi is a normal ninja, with a normal amount of chakra and a normal chakra's control.
He wouldn't have the Kage Bunshin and there aren't any reason that he would really be more skilled in fighting especially in taijutsu.

And that's the main weak point of Naruto, he's unskilled.
He can fight against elite like Sasuke, Neji or even Kimimaro because the Kage Bunshin allows him to outnumbered them, to fight at 50, 100 or even thousands against 1.
And even that isn't enough usually.

You want an example of someone without bloodline abilities, without special clan jutsu, without a huge amount of chakra?
Take a look at Sakura, not to Sasuke, Neji or even worst Kimi and their equal.

[Muad'Dib]

You want an example of someone without bloodline abilities, without special clan jutsu, without a huge amount of chakra?

Well, we don't know that Naruto wouldn't still have a substantial amount of chakra because we don't know to what degree the kyuubi's chakra merging with his has affected his base chakra potential.

Hm, people without bloodlne abilities or special clan jutsu possibly includes (rough list--because special clan jutsu is really broad and hard to interpret) : the 3rd hokage, the 4th hokage, the 5th hokage, perhaps the first two hokage, Orochimaru, Jiraiya, Maito Gai, Kakashi (he was a genius before the sharingan,) Zabuza, Kabuto (he's a good prime example,) Tsunade's assistent, Asuma, Kurenai, etc., etc. Bloodline limits are not everything--nor are special clan jutsu. The 4th and Orochimaru were geniuses at jutsus--creating their very own and very wicked jutsus constantly.

Admittedly all of these have huge amounts of chakra, but they are also all adults, and your comparison was made assuming Naruto wouldn't have a substantial amount of chakra without the kyuubi--which is at this point, to all we know, most likely a false assumption. Orochimaru's seal (supposedly) disengaged the 4th's jutsu that allowed the Kyuubi's chakra to merge with Naruto and protect him. One possible explainer for why Naruto was unconscious for so long after Orochimaru sealed him is because of the huge effect it would have on his body--chakra practically being ripped from him and resealed.

We have seen Naruto summon a substantial amount of shadow clones in the forest and display amazing stamina even without the kyuubi. Therefore, it is possible to assume he has a vast reservoir of chakra of his own--and that it would only grow with time and age.

Some of those ninjas I listed could be disqualified by your first two disqualifiers (up to what we know so far, they could be included,) but not all of them.

Also, had Naruto not had the kyuubi sealed within him, perhaps he would have parents to this day, or someone could have taken him in--therefore it is possible he would have had special clan jutsu.

[Maxter]

Naruto unleashed a huge amount of regular, blue chakra when fighting Gaara. No help from kyubi there. Even without kyubi, he would have an amount of chakra higher than most "normal" ninjas. Not as huge as it is now, but still more then for example Sasuke (without Cursed seal). He would have been a regular ninja, and as somebody said, I'd guess he'd be about Kiba's level. Lower level than Sasuke and Neji etc, but not THAT much lower.
Well, atleast that's my fifty yen.

[Hunter]

Originally Posted by Muad'Dib

Well, we don't know that Naruto wouldn't still have a substantial amount of chakra because we don't know to what degree the kyuubi's chakra merging with his has affected his base chakra potential.

Exactly, we don't know, did you read my first post?

Originally Posted by Hunter

All his capacities, all his jutsus, all his background are based on the presence of the Kyubi.

That's why it's impossible to know what would be Naruto without it.
He would be a completely different character.
He would be weaker indeed but in which proportion?
We don't know and we can't know.

I merely answered to the people who said that Naruto without his huge chakra and stamina due to the presence of the Kyubi would be almost as strong as he is now because he would have a better chakra control, it's just laughable.

Then your list of people is pretty much useless, they're all genius and/or have all a huge/gigantic amount of chakra with the exception of Shizune who's not close to the level of any elite ninja anyway.

The fact is that we have no idea of the amount of chakra that Naruto would have without the Kyubi, not even a slight thought.

The incredible amount of chakra of Naruto is due to the presence of the Kyubi, once again it's not just red/orange equal Kyubi and blue normal Naruto.

Their chakra are slowly mixed since almost his birth, that's why Naruto can use the Kage Bunshin as he does, for any normal ninja it's impossible, an even for the strongest actually, to create only 2 clones is already a gigantic sacrifice of chakra for anyone.

The stamina of Naruto is due to the Kyubi, no Kyubi = no abnormal stamina nor abnormal chakra.

The only certain things that Naruto has on his own is that he can be a good and tricky tactician sometimes, I don't think that Naruto without the Kyubi would be a complete faillure as Sakura, but it's just an opinion based on nothing except that I like the character.