noitaminA anime block discussion

[karice67]

Originally Posted by Eternal September

For example K-on's success, (balanced viewer gender and age distribution, viewers who normally don't watch anime, Disney channel airing, etc.) are all indicators that contrary to the stereotypes, blob-like high school girls eating cake is at least as widely popular from a Japanese perspective, as any "mature adult theme" that noitaminA could show.

Talk about mis-representation of results (not you necessarily, but rather the person/people who originally translated that from the original Japanese scans, which can be found through the MAL link)...

The "viewers who normally don't watch anime" phrase is a bit misleading.

The original question asked was something like "How many anime and SFX TV shows (stuff like Kamen Rider) from a self-picked selection of 5 shows (out of 47) have you seen more than once since October 2010*?"

*i.e. in the ~1 year leading up to the study.

Of the people who chose K-ON, 15.3% said that they hadn't seen any of the five they had selected more than once.

To me, this question seems to be more about how K-ON compares to other shows in terms of appealing to people who probably do watch other anime, but are less 'otaku-like' in that they don't tend to watch things more than once. The other 3 shows named in the study - Kuroshitsuji II, Strike Witches 2 and MadoMagi - are, you'll notice, arguably quite high on the 'for otaku only' scale. Speaking for myself - I probably only rewatch about one series a year, and I usually don't rewatch shows within a year of my first viewing. And I consider myself a pretty frequent anime watcher.

So...does that survey actually reveal to us the percentage of K-ON fans who 'don't normally or frequently watch anime'? I really don't think so...

Originally Posted by Eternal September

The Anime method can also only tell certain adult-themed stories by twisting the school setting. Their methods are to make club/student council/school festival roles more job-like than they really are.

Also, speaking from the experience of working in a Japanese school for three years - wherein I also hang out with some clubs and helped others, including the school council in preparing for events, including 2 school festivals - I haven't actually seen any series where club/student council/school festival roles are more job-like than they really are. Most of the clubs / student councils / school festival in the series I've seen have been pretty realistic, except where special abilities/lutz are involved (cf. Haruhi or Geass). In fact, you could argue that the point of these clubs and activities is to give students a taste of what working in a real job would be like (use of polite language; bureaucratic procedures; hazing (to give a negative example) etc). So that line from your post I've bolded - I think that's quite untrue.

[Triple_R]

Yeah, I'm pretty much with Don on his last post.

Certainly I don't mind anime shows with teenage protagonists - If I did, I probably wouldn't be an anime fan - But added variety can't hurt, especially given how much of the core anime fanbase is getting older.

Gundam shows where many of the protagonist pilots are adults strikes me as the sort of change that would be easy and natural to see happen. There has to be loads of Gundam fans now in their mid-20s and older.

[Eternal September]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Mainstream doesn't mean "all".

It roughly means the same as "widespread, throughout an entire population and not just one specific subset of it".

I think that TJR is saying that moe, in its stricter meanings, doesn't have that sort of mainstream appeal in Japan.

Now, is cuteness in general popular and mainstream? Probably, up to a point.
.....

The "moe art style", in and of itself, probably isn't a major problem, no.

That being said, I'm not sure why you seem to be against the idea of more anime shows with adult male leads.

I think it's fair to say that the potential anime audience for people mostly into watching high school-attending teenagers is kind of saturated at this point.

If the desire is for anime to have more mainstream appeal, then it seems to me that offering something to people mostly into watching adult characters in adult settings might be a good way to go at this point.

I don't think that anybody expects the "traditional noitaminA" shows to take off like wildfire and actually define the industry. That would be pretty shocking to me.

I's just that many of us thinks it would be nice if we had the added variety that would come with that (which, yes, includes variety in character ages), and how adding on a different audience-base to the established otaku one can only help the anime industry by enlarging its total fanbase (even if the different audience-base is "niche" in its own right).

Now, are some noitaminA fans people who can't stand modern otaku anime shows? Well, yeah, where else would you expect such anime fans to go?

Also, it's important to point out here that even amongst those of us who like some otaku anime, there's different thresholds here. Some of us share otaku tastes up to a point, but beyond that point, it's a bit too much for us (so noitaminA can seem like a breath of fresh air for some of us). A lot of my closer friends here on Anime Suki, and myself, are like this, imo.

From the fan's perspective, I entirely agree with you. Variety is a nice things to have, and I enjoy watching it.

The rest of my posts were entirely written from the wannabe industry analyst's perspective, speculating whether or not it would really bring growth, as Don first suggested 1,5 pages ago. (and I'm sticking to the "not" side.)

Teenagerhood seems to be treated as such a self-evidently expected portrayal of appealing characters in anime, that I see it as simply the anime industry's equivalent to Hollywood's 20-30 year old hot actresses and actors.

Can a movie be done about old, or ugly people? Of course. It has been done quite a few times. Can it be popular? Yes, people are not all that shallow, if it's interesting, it might catch their attention. But would they be actively looking out for it? Would they consider it an entirely legitimate equivalent of their other movies, Probably not.

I think, it might be something similar with Japan, and their expectations of animated characters' ages.

I mean, when teenage characters are so prevalent in anime that when we hear the premise of a new story, that we don't even need to see a picture or hear a confirmation about the characters' age, we can just assume that they are all teenagers, then there must be more to it than just a few writers forgetting to follow their audiece.

Asking them why don't they write adults that would be closer to their audience, is almost like asking them why don't they draw slant-eyed black-haired "Japanese" characters that their audince can better identify with, instead of these vaguely caucasian people.

Of course the average mangaka or character designer, or reader, doesn't even consider their characters caucasian, and I think it's not a stretch to imagine that most of them never stop to think about them as "too young", either.

Where we see a circle with two dots and a line and identify it as an adult white male's face, the anime artist inherently seems to think of "teenager" first, just as naturally as they think of "Japanese".

[Kirarakim]

Well as mentioned earlier on this thread Space Brothers has adult characters and is doing pretty well in terms of ratings.

Tiger & Bunny had adult characters and did very well in terms of sales.

That's two series already that shows adult characters can appeal to the audience if done right.

[DonQuigleone]

Originally Posted by Kirarakim

Well as mentioned earlier on this thread Space Brothers has adult characters and is doing pretty well in terms of ratings.

Tiger & Bunny had adult characters and did very well in terms of sales.

That's two series already that shows adult characters can appeal to the audience if done right.

Exactly, japanese producers that think adults don't sell are clearly fooling themselves. Most of the shows that have featured adults, in otherwise typical genre settings, have done perfectly well, and in fact have exceeded expectations.

[Triple_R]

Yeah, once again I'm with Don and Kirarakim.

A year ago I might have agreed with Eternal September, but Tiger and Bunny (and to a lesser extent Usagi Drop) demonstrated how an anime show can have an adult male lead (i.e. a guy in his mid-20s or older) and still do reasonably well, if not very well.

And given how badly Gundam Age did, I can't help but wonder if a Gundam show aimed at adults with an adult male pilot in the main protagonist role might have done much better commercially.


Certainly, I expect teenage characters to dominate the main casts (and lead protagonist roles) of anime for a long time to come, but there's no reason why, say, 20% of the anime out there can't have adult leads. I think the anime market could withstand that, and in fact, it might benefit from that.

[DonQuigleone]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Yeah, once again I'm with Don and Kirarakim.

A year ago I might have agreed with Eternal September, but Tiger and Bunny (and to a lesser extent Usagi Drop) demonstrated how an anime show can have an adult male lead (i.e. a guy in his mid-20s or older) and still do reasonably well, if not very well.

And given how badly Gundam Age did, I can't help but wonder if a Gundam show aimed at adults with an adult male pilot in the main protagonist role might have done much better commercially.


Certainly, I expect teenage characters to dominate the main casts (and lead protagonist roles) of anime for a long time to come, but there's no reason why, say, 20% of the anime out there can't have adult leads. I think the anime market could withstand that, and in fact, it might benefit from that.

Definitely. I might even go so far as to say 30%. But best to take baby steps first.

Interestingly, if you look at Comiket Statistics (page 21), you can see the age breakdown of "circle organizers" which I think should generally correlate well with the paying anime audience, with perhaps the general audience being a year or two younger then "circle organizers". In addition you can see how age stats changed from 2004 to 2009.

19 and under went from 4.5% to 1.3% with older segments seeing the largest growth, 40 and above went from 4% to about 10.5%, and 35-39 went from 11.4% to 16.5%. A lot young men also entered the hobby (the proportion of women decreased, the female age distribution is close to being a normal distribution curve, while the male age distribution went from being a normal distribution, to having a large peak in the 20-24 range.

The core of the fandom in both years is the 20-35 crowd. But I definitely think it shows the fandom aging, as the fandom is maturing to match the age distribution of the population as a whole.

Given that older fans tend to have a lot more disposable income as well, it seems like a no brainer to make more that will target them.

Again, they don't need to completely change their formula, just put an older twist on it more frequently.

[cyth]

Originally Posted by DonQuigleone

The core of the fandom in both years is the 20-35 crowd. But I definitely think it shows the fandom aging, as the fandom is maturing to match the age distribution of the population as a whole.

Given that older fans tend to have a lot more disposable income as well, it seems like a no brainer to make more that will target them.

Again, they don't need to completely change their formula, just put an older twist on it more frequently.

This is what it's about. Japan's fertility rate has been on a downward slide and has only as recently as 2006 started trending upward. There's no reason to celebrate just yet, because it's still firmly below the 2.0 threshold, with the national average at 1.39 in 2010. Even if Japan's fertility rate rises dramatically over the next 30 years, it will still take another 10-20 for the children's and teenager's market to start growing again. So the next 50 years will be a real trial for anime, one that will basically prove once and for all if cartoons can be successful with adult audiences without sliding into traditionally adult genres, such as political satire (as seen in the West) and gag stories.

[hyl]

Originally Posted by cyth

They are not. Just look at Japanese box office sales, how many otaku titles do you see? Foreign titles are pretty popular, especially the occasional high-budget blockbusters. Then there are popular manga adaptations and kids anime movies. There's a reason why otaku anime are stuck in late-night TV slots, and there's a reason why there aren't that many anime movies with huge promotion campaigns in Japan.

Actually, there were quite some otaku titles that made it in the top 100 box office movies last year.

http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/news...ox-office/2011

Unless you want to claim that most of these titles like k-on, Gantz, tokusatsu movies, FMA, naruto, macross etc. are not meant for otaku's.

[karice67]

Originally Posted by hyl

Actually, there were quite some otaku titles that made it in the top 100 box office movies last year.

http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/news...ox-office/2011

Unless you want to claim that most of these titles like k-on, Gantz, tokusatsu movies, FMA, naruto, macross etc. are not meant for otaku's.

I don't know about you, but I'd argue that only K-ON and Macross - and perhaps FMA - really qualify as (anime) otaku-type titles.

The Gantz movies and tokusatsu movies attract viewers because of the actors who appear in them. Gantz in particular had Ninomiya Kazunari and Matsuyama Ken'ichi - the former is arguably the best actor of the most popular Johnny's band atm, and the latter one of the hottest young actors around.

FMA, naruto, Precure etc probably drew quite a number of the younger generation (and their parents, if necessary), although I'd expect that Toriko and One Piece drew many older Jump manga fans too.

Also, at #44, K-ON took approximately USD 12million...um...is that a hit...?

[hyl]

Originally Posted by karice67

I don't know about you, but I'd argue that only K-ON and Macross - and perhaps FMA - really qualify as (anime) otaku-type titles.

The Gantz movies and tokusatsu movies attract viewers because of the actors who appear in them. Gantz in particular had Ninomiya Kazunari and Matsuyama Ken'ichi - the former is arguably the best actor of the most popular Johnny's band atm, and the latter one of the hottest young actors around.

FMA, naruto, Precure etc probably drew quite a number of the younger generation (and their parents, if necessary), although I'd expect that Toriko and One Piece drew many older Jump manga fans too.

Also, at #44, K-ON took approximately USD 12million...um...is that a hit...?

While i do agree that tokusatsu tend to attract other audiences (it got much more female fans after Den-o) besides it's original intended target group. But I think that tokusatsu series are mainly meant for young/teenage males and otaku's.

As for Gantz, are you really implying that this movie is not mostly intended for the original readers/watchers of the original anime/manga just because of the actors? That's like saying that that the spy kids movies are not children movies because it has actors like Antonio Banderas and Gearge Clooney in it. Or the movie Santa with Muscles or Mr. Nanny are also not children movies, just because it had Hulk Hogan in it.
The famous actors might have attracted a more diverse audience but i don't think that the plot and story in Gantz would have been that interesting for the female audience.

I can't agree with FMA , one piece and Naruto on your list of "children movies" or movies that drew from the previous generation because those series aren't even that old.
However detective conan, doraemon can be considered to be one of those movies that you speak off, because it has been serialized for quite long.

edit:
the kaji movie did also very well but i haven't seen or read anything from it to comment about that movie's succes.

edit 2:
yes, i am aware that the Gantz movie is severly toned down compared to the manga because of it's secundary target: the female audience

[karice67]

Originally Posted by hyl

While i do agree that tokusatsu tend to attract other audiences (it got much more female fans after Den-o) besides it's original intended target group. But I think that tokusatsu series are mainly meant for young/teenage males and otaku's.

First, do note that tokusatsu is meant to be quite a popular type of show in Japan. Seriously, live-action TV is quite different from anime in terms of popularity.

Originally Posted by hyl

As for Gantz, are you really implying that this movie is not mostly intended for the original readers/watchers of the original anime/manga just because of the actors? That's like saying that that the spy kids movies are not children movies because it has actors like Antonio Banderas and Gearge Clooney in it. Or the movie Santa with Muscles or Mr. Nanny are also not children movies, just because it had Hulk Hogan in it.

I'm sure it attracted those fans too. But to get to #8 and #11? I'd seriously wager that Nino and MatsuKen had something to do with it, if only because they could market it that widely because of them.

Originally Posted by hyl

The famous actors might have attracted a more diverse audience but i don't think that the plot and story in Gantz would have been that interesting for the female audience.

I'd say it would depend on how it was marketed, though I didn't really pay attention to how they did it. That said, I can imagine girls going to see it just because those two were in it - please don't underestimate the idol market...

Originally Posted by hyl

I can't agree with FMA , one piece and Naruto on your list of "children movies" or movies that drew from the previous generation because those series aren't even that old.

The important thing there was actually the phrase 'Jump manga', i.e. those films appeal to people who are fans of the manga. Or kids - do note when they air on TV.... (IIRC, FMA had that 5pm or 6pm slot on Sunday). Doraemon and Conan also belong to this group - though they also appeal to older Japanese people for nostalgic reasons.

These shows aren't late-night anime, so no, their prime audience isn't actually the so-called anime otaku crowd, and I believe that most Japanese people wouldn't consider them otaku titles. Macross and K-ON on the other hand...

[hyl]

Originally Posted by karice67

First, do note that tokusatsu is meant to be quite a popular type of show in Japan. Seriously, live-action TV is quite different from anime in terms of popularity.

Define popular. Most of the time i don't see kamen rider or sentai series surpass 6%. Which is on par or lower with the more popular animes.

Originally Posted by karice67

I'm sure it attracted those fans too. But to get to #8 and #11? I'd seriously wager that Nino and MatsuKen had something to do with it, if only because they could market it that widely because of them.

I'd say it would depend on how it was marketed, though I didn't really pay attention to how they did it. That said, I can imagine girls going to see it just because those two were in it - please don't underestimate the idol market...

The Gantz manga was popular enough to sell for over 10 million copies every year, so i shouldn't underestimate the already existing fanbase of it's original source.

Originally Posted by karice67

The important thing there was actually the phrase 'Jump manga', i.e. those films appeal to people who are fans of the manga. Or kids - do note when they air on TV.... (IIRC, FMA had that 5pm or 6pm slot on Sunday). Doraemon and Conan also belong to this group - though they also appeal to older Japanese people for nostalgic reasons.

These shows aren't late-night anime, so no, their prime audience isn't actually the so-called anime otaku crowd.

I am pretty sure that some of those jump manga adaptations are far more popular for the adults rather than for teens or children regardless of the airing slot.

http://www.mangatherapy.com/post/360...ece-popularity

[Kirarakim]

Either way the Jump & other shounen series are not considered Otaku anime in Japan and are not geared toward that fan base.

Think One Piece it does have adult readership/audience but it's definitely way more mainstream than most Otaku anime.

[karice67]

Originally Posted by hyl

Define popular. Most of the time i don't see kamen rider or sentai series surpass 6%. Which is on par or lower with the more popular animes.

Airs during tv blocks targeting certain types of audience (Primetime evening, Sunday morning etc). e.g. Kamen Rider currently airs at 8am on Sunday mornings. Note that the original Kamen Rider series aired between 7.30 and 8 at night, back in the 1970s.

Originally Posted by hyl

The Gantz manga was popular enough to sell for over 10 million copies every year, so i shouldn't underestimate the already existing fanbase of it's original source.

I don't underestimate it. But I think you underestimate idol culture in Japan.

And most idol fans, I might add, are called 'fans' rather than the more negative 'otaku'.

Originally Posted by Kirarakim

Either way the Jump & other shounen series are not considered Otaku anime in Japan and are not geared toward that fan base.

Think One Piece it does have adult readership/audience but it's definitely way more mainstream than most Otaku anime.

Exactly. As I said in my first post on this subject, only Macross Frontier and K-ON arguably qualify as titles aimed primarily at (anime) otaku. Manga is a heck of a lot more mainstream than anime, even if we've talking about seinen titles like Gantz and e.g. 20th Century Boys.

[hyl]

Originally Posted by Kirarakim

Either way the Jump & other shounen series are not considered Otaku anime in Japan and are not geared toward that fan base.

Think One Piece it does have adult readership/audience but it's definitely way more mainstream than most Otaku anime.

While i have to somewhat agree one some points that it's not exactly to be considered to be an otaku serie in japan, but it does have however lots of merchandise targeted specifcly for otaku's.

As for the movie Gantz and other movies with popular idols/movie stars in it, there are people who are considered to be idol otaku's (and seiyuu otaku's, but let's ignore them) in japan.

Originally Posted by karice67

Airs during tv blocks targeting certain types of audience (Primetime evening, Sunday morning etc). e.g. Kamen Rider currently airs at 8am on Sunday mornings. Note that the original Kamen Rider series aired between 7.30 and 8 at night, back in the 1970s.

Yes, i am aware that it's airing on the weekend morning time slot for children. Eventhough it's more popular than most late night anime (obviously because of it's timeslot) i find that it's average of under 6% is kind of low compared to other children series.

[Kirarakim]

Originally Posted by hyl

While i have to somewhat agree one some points that it's not exactly to be considered to be an otaku serie in japan, but it does have however lots of merchandise targeted specifcly for otaku's.

While it's true One Piece has a lot of merchandise that might be more aimed at Otaku (I am guessing your average person might not be collecting all those One Piece POP's).

One Piece is still extremely popular outside the Otaku sphere (you won't see this with Otaku anime).

I mean there was a special on NHK about One Piece why it's so popular in Japan and from talking with people that teach there it's talked about by your average person in ways typical anime is definitely not.

So yeah some non-Otaku anime might also be popular with Otaku but what we are saying is you are not going to see Otaku anime popular with your average Japanese person the way some Shounen might be.

[hyl]

Originally Posted by Kirarakim

While it's true One Piece has a lot of merchandise that might be more aimed at Otaku (I am guessing your average person might not be collecting all those One Piece POP's).

One Piece is still extremely popular outside the Otaku sphere (you won't see this with Otaku anime).

I mean there was a special on NHK about One Piece why it's so popular in Japan and from talking with people that teach there it's talked about by your average person in ways typical anime is definitely not.

So yeah some non-Otaku anime might also be popular with Otaku but what we are saying is you are not going to see Otaku anime popular with your average Japanese person the way some Shounen might be.

Yeah, that's why i was agreeing on you on those points. It's similar in the western culture that some sci-fi or fantasy series like Star Wars, Harry Potter and Lord of the rings (maybe the twilight serie as well) are considered to be more mainstream, so that they are not series that are exclusively for "geeks/nerds" (no offense to them)

[karice67]

Originally Posted by hyl

Yes, i am aware that it's airing on the weekend morning time slot for children. Eventhough it's more popular than most late night anime (obviously because of it's timeslot) i find that it's average of under 6% is kind of low compared to other children series.

By bringing it down to a question of ratings for a particular time, you're missing the point:

tokusatsu aren't aimed at (anime) otaku. They're (now) aimed and marketed at young boys, which is why they air at 8am on a Sunday.

Perhaps you should define what kind of 'otaku' you are talking about when you say "Actually, there were quite some otaku titles that made it in the top 100 box office movies last year."??

Not that the young boys that tokusatsu, and other Sunday morning anime are marketed towards are considered 'otaku' in Japan anyway...they're just kids watching shows made for them...

[hyl]

Originally Posted by karice67

By bringing it down to a question of ratings for a particular time, you're missing the point:

tokusatsu aren't aimed at (anime) otaku. They're (now) aimed and marketed at young boys, which is why they air at 8am on a Sunday.

Not that the young boys that tokusatsu, and other Sunday morning anime are marketed towards are considered 'otaku' in Japan anyway...they're just kids watching shows made for them...

Isn't it a little silly to use all of those young male and female idol actors for only the children? My explanation for this is the same explanation that you have used for Gantz: the idol fans. Which are also somewhat considered to be an otaku group. So eventhough it's not the main target, they are still targetting other demographics.

Just look at the kamen rider and sentai merchandise, not everything are toys for children.

Originally Posted by karice67

Perhaps you should define what kind of 'otaku' you are talking about when you say "Actually, there were quite some otaku titles that made it in the top 100 box office movies last year."??

Also i never claimed that those movies were intended for anime otaku, i only said otaku. Which should also include idol/seiyuu/tokusatsu and all of the other kind kind of otaku's that i can't think of now.