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Old 2014-05-06, 00:50   Link #1541
Mazryonh
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The Clothes DO make the hero(in)es!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Getting rid of the red briefs was almost certainly done to appeal to younger generations (older generations were use to them). What I'm saying is that they compensated for that by giving the traditionalists what we wanted in other areas (the cape, boots, and s-crest). I mean, capes have also been derided by some people, but they not only stuck with the cape, they made it large and impressive.
The red briefs were, according to what I've read, originally an homage to old-school circus strongman briefs, except that Superman is wearing a bodysuit and cape where the old-school strongmen largely wore nothing except the briefs to show off their musculature while performing feats of strength. Of course, the fact that many later comic artists would give Superman a completely defined musculature even through his bodysuit (something that became a common trend among comic book superheroes) meant that in effect he was visually, in the words of "Stupid Sexy Flanders," wearing "nothing at all."

As for the cape, it depends. For instance, almost no one has dared give Batman flak for his cape, and to my knowledge only Terry McGinnis from Batman Beyond never wore a cape as Batman. The cape at a base level shows that Superman is beyond human capability, since he clearly is not hindered in the least by it during his duties, unlike real people.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mangamuscle View Post
It is not that we have gotten used to seeing the sailor scout outfits, it is all about contrast. Since the only moment they use their sailor scouts outfits is when they are fighting youkai and human looking adversaries that use even more outlandish costumes, they look normal (hint. they never receive the keys to the city, nor are part of any charity event, etc.).
The youkai got somewhat silly-looking after a while. Of course their aesthetic roots are in Sentai show monsters (Sailor Moon shares some tropes with the Sentai/Power Rangers genre), but they're clearly not as visually memorable as the Witches and other monsters from Puella Magica. I'd like for them to be more memorably designed this time around; even something as a piece of their desires given malevolent and visually-appalling/repulsive form would be nice to see. Given what we know about the world now, why would Queen Beryl need to keep mobs of monsters when she can just amplify and incarnate the evil/problematic desires of billions of ordinary humans?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
On the whole, it was a balanced approach, unlike what I'm seeing with the new 2014 Sailor Moon designs.
About that, here's a quick picture showing some "unbalanced" parts of the new designs. Note that I didn't make this.



By the way, since we're talking about the outfits of the Sailor Senshi, here's something odd I discovered. Back in the 20th Anniversary Nicovideo Livestream, Kotono Mitsuishi said something offhandedly about her stuffed toy version of Sailor Moon not wearing panties, but a leotard (she was prodded by the MC about the stuffed toy's panties showing on camera). I don't know if that's the case in the original manga as well, but whoever came up with that idea didn't think this entirely through, as you will see below.

It just so happens that I discovered a short video of Marina Sirtis, best known as Deanna Troi from Star Trek: The Next Generation, describing just what kind of disadvantages wearing a leotard with a skirt (one way the Senshi's outfits might be interpreted as) has.



Most of what she says in this funny video also applies to the Sailor Senshi as well, since their outfits (aside from the skirts and gloves) in the original 90s anime adaptation never visibly wrinkled and had no seams or zippers, and real-life female teenagers (even ones who exercise and eat healthily) would almost certainly have to wear a corset to get into the waist-hip ratios depicted for the Senshi (which Sirtis also wore for the filming of ST:TNG). A sobering thought on just what it would take to get the "Senshi look."
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Old 2014-05-06, 01:21   Link #1542
mangamuscle
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mazryonh View Post
As for the cape, it depends. For instance, almost no one has dared give Batman flak for his cape, and to my knowledge only Terry McGinnis from Batman Beyond never wore a cape as Batman. The cape at a base level shows that Superman is beyond human capability, since he clearly is not hindered in the least by it during his duties, unlike real people.
I have an alternate interpretation. Cape's are vestige of another era, used by gentlemen to guard of the rain. Bottom line, they look cool wearing them, even Tuxedo Mask has a cape for the same reason. In combat they are no different from long hair, quite impractical since the enemy can grab it and pull.
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Old 2014-05-06, 04:35   Link #1543
Sheba
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All that bitching about the character designs as if your childhood had been violated and ruined. I'll laugh because yall end up watching it anyway.
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Old 2014-05-06, 04:46   Link #1544
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sheba View Post
All that bitching about the character designs as if your childhood had been violated and ruined. I'll laugh because yall end up watching it anyway.
...And? I personally don't see what the problem with that is. Last I checked, there's no rule anywhere stating that people should not watch shows they dislike the designs of. I don't know about you, but aesthetics are not the one and only thing I decide to watch a series for.
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Old 2014-05-06, 04:54   Link #1545
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Being critical of something has precious little to do with whether or not people will end up watching it. You don't need to be unshakeably approving of something to watch it.
Edit: Kismet-chan beat me to it

Btw, so much for "Usagi was meant to be a bit chubbier"- they really respected that, didn't they?

while SM was not redrawn as such, it was indeed partially updated to have rounder features, less wasp-like waists and generally more appropriate bodily features. I'm re-reading it at the moment and yeah, I don't see this matchstick business of the anime as resembling the manga much. The new cover art doesn't resemble these designs much either, considering the covers make them look intentionally younger, more timely and age appropriate.
The anime does the exact opposite.

Naoko KNEW her art had weaknesses, she was insecure about it iirc. So she went back and fixed some of it.
As a result, the whole "oh, they're thin in the manga, this totally looks like the manga" argument doesn't really fly. The same manga (and Author's notes) also mention how Makoto is meant to be bustier and Usagi is meant to be chubbier.
So... When they now mention that bit, what is this meant to come across at? A bunch of brittle boned girls looking twice their age discussing their severe eating disorders?*

*this was already a criticism of the old show/of the manga in general, where it never bothered me personally. It has to be pretty extreme before I raise this criticism in anime. This is such an extreme..
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Old 2014-05-06, 10:19   Link #1546
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mangamuscle View Post
I have an alternate interpretation. Cape's are vestige of another era, used by gentlemen to guard of the rain. Bottom line, they look cool wearing them, even Tuxedo Mask has a cape for the same reason. In combat they are no different from long hair, quite impractical since the enemy can grab it and pull.
Batman still makes sense with a cape regardless of era. He wants to look big and intimidating, while also appearing "not human". A cape helps that.

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Originally Posted by Miraluka View Post
Now this thread has become nitpicking about what you wanted but the studio didn't deliver...
Welcome to every pre-air thread based on an existing work ever. I'd advise you to avoid the new Fate/Stay Night pre-air thread (which hasn't even had any details confirmed other than when it'll air).
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Old 2014-05-06, 10:26   Link #1547
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sheba View Post
All that bitching about the character designs as if your childhood had been violated and ruined.
Not at all. This doesn't take anything at all away from the 90s Sailor Moon anime. In fact, by sheer comparison, it makes it look better to me. I now have a new appreciation for how superbly balanced those 90s character designs are.

Now, is it your position that character designs are unimportant? That people shouldn't say anything at all against character designs that they think look terrible? Anime is an audio-visual medium, and character designs go a long way to determining the quality of the "visual" part. They're just as legitimate a point of critique as anything else is, including the plot. Bad plots tend to get very heavily criticized here on Anime Suki, and nobody seems to see anything illegitimate about all of that "bitching". So why should critiques of character designs be any different?


Quote:
I'll laugh because yall end up watching it anyway.
I'll almost certainly watch an episode or two of it. But if those episodes look very bad to me, it's not very likely I'll continue watching it.
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Old 2014-05-06, 10:31   Link #1548
Sheba
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Miraluka View Post
Now this thread has become nitpicking about what you wanted but the studio didn't deliver...
What would be worse would not be the character designs, nobody will likely pay attention to it once it is animated. It will be whatever it's faithful to the manga, or change things around a bit.

Up until now, I think that it is the fans of Hokuto no Ken who got the short end of the stick. Sure they got get the music of Yuki Kajiura, but it's a meager consolation when many many characters got shafted, and the animation was pretty poor when you remember that those were MOVIES.

Compare it to Jojo's Bizarre Adventure which is a visual and sound orgasm for fans even with the limited animation for Parts 1 & 2,. It's hammy, it's FABULOUS, it's the Jojo that manga readers have come to love. David Prod even made sme changes that enhanced the anime, than if it was a carbon copy of the manga (like what happened to Sin City that became soulless).

And then you have Hunter X Hunter that continues to amaze fans weeks after weeks when it got past the parts covered by the 1999 version, letting the whole comparisons die out.

So, rather than worry about the character designs, worry more about how the entire package will compare to the manga and how the adaptation team will try to enhance over it and its past adaptations.
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Old 2014-05-06, 10:34   Link #1549
Miraluka
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Maybe, but why not wait until it airs first? It's creepy when someone try to "rationalize" why they chose these designs .


Quote:
Originally Posted by GDB View Post
.
Welcome to every pre-air thread based on an existing work ever. I'd advise you to avoid the new Fate/Stay Night pre-air thread (which hasn't even had any details confirmed other than when it'll air).
There they are trying to guess which route the anime will adapt, it's interesting to read them taking any hint they get to speculate about the plot which isn't the case here....
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Old 2014-05-06, 10:40   Link #1550
Triple_R
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sheba View Post
What would be worse would not be the character designs, nobody will likely pay attention to it once it is animated.
I certainly will be paying attention to it. And I very much doubt I'll be the only person paying attention to it. What do you find so strange about people caring about character designs? Again, this is an audio-visual medium. If the story/characterization was all I care about, I'd be reading a book instead. Why even bother watching an anime show if you don't care about how it and its characters look?


Quote:
So, rather than worry about the character designs, worry more about how the entire package will compare to the manga and how the adaptation team will try to enhance over it and its past adaptations.
Character designs are a significant part of the entire package.
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Old 2014-05-06, 11:19   Link #1551
mangamuscle
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sheba View Post
... Hunter X Hunter that continues to amaze fans weeks after weeks when it got past the parts covered by the 1999 version, letting the whole comparisons die out.
This is another reason Naoko must be frustrated since HxH mangaka is her husband.

Quote:
So, rather than worry about the character designs, worry more about how the entire package will compare to the manga and how the adaptation team will try to enhance over it and its past adaptations.
I worry about the complete package, a part of it is already defective (character designs) and the odds that the rest of the package is in good conditions do not look good (only two episodes a week, webcast only, one year delay with no explanations).

It is odd how some people think that by labeling complains as "nitpicking" they are addressing the problem, when the problem is real, do not kill the messenger!
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Old 2014-05-06, 15:04   Link #1552
Daniel E.
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I have deleted a couple of posts, please understand that we can't always like all posts made in any given thread.
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Old 2014-05-06, 17:42   Link #1553
Solace
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So, I've read the debate spanning a number of pages now, but I'm baffled by the reactions. Sailor Moon spanned a lot of design variations, some more exaggerated, some less. This newer design, with more angles and exaggerated proportions, definitely reminds me of mid-late 1990's anime (and it's more like the manga in some ways). I don't think it's bad, but I'd have to see it in motion to make a fair judgment.

I think a lot of people have forgotten, or have never really experienced, what a lot of 90's anime looked like. Sailor Moon arrived in the early 90's in a period which was still influenced by 1980's designs, which were rounder. I think the 90's had a lot of evolution in designs compared to the 2000's. You can find a huge variety of different styles from that decade, but as the 90's faded and we moved into the 2000's, designs became more standardized into what you see today. Part of that is probably due to the shift from cell animation toward computer aided/designed animation, however.
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Old 2014-05-06, 18:35   Link #1554
mangamuscle
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Solace View Post
... definitely reminds me of mid-late 1990's anime ...
Do you mind sharing some of said series names (I do not remember any, but I cant vouch for a 100% perfect memory nor have seen 100% of anime produced in any given year)?
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Old 2014-05-06, 18:44   Link #1555
Solace
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mangamuscle View Post
Do you mind sharing some of said series names (I do not remember any, but I cant vouch for a 100% perfect memory nor have seen 100% of anime produced in any given year)?
http://www.oocities.org/espanol/gapc...1990-2000.html

That's a good start.
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Old 2014-05-06, 18:54   Link #1556
mangamuscle
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Solace View Post
What I mean is what series of said time period reminds you to the SM Crystals character designs (unless your answer means "all of them").
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Old 2014-05-06, 19:31   Link #1557
Solace
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mangamuscle View Post
What I mean is what series of said time period reminds you to the SM Crystals character designs (unless your answer means "all of them").
Escaflowne:



Bishoujo Senshi Sailor Moon Sailor Stars:



Revolutionary Girl Utena:



I can dig up more.

I'm not saying it's exactly the same, obviously, but the influences are clearly there. The oddest of the new designs is, imo, Sailor Moon herself. It's a strange hybrid of different styles, like she's caught between the manga and the anime.

Here's some extra images from the manga. Warning, these are big images:

Images
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In these you can see some of the other influences for the designs, and hopefully see what I meant about the hybrid design of this new version of Sailor Moon.
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Old 2014-05-06, 19:55   Link #1558
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Utena and Escaflowne have much healthier-looking legs than Sailor Moon 2014's character designs do. I'd be fine with the Sailor Moon 2014 designs having legs just like those.

Solace, do you really not understand why some of us think that these Sailor 2014 character designs have legs with a bad combination of very long and very thin?

Escaflowne's legs are thin, but not terribly long. Utena's legs are long, but not terribly thin.
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Old 2014-05-06, 20:26   Link #1559
Solace
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Utena and Escaflowne have much healthier-looking legs than Sailor Moon 2014's character designs do. I'd be fine with the Sailor Moon 2014 designs having legs just like those.

Solace, do you really not understand why some of us think that these Sailor 2014 character designs have legs with a bad combination of very long and very thin?

Escaflowne's legs are thin, but not terribly long. Utena's legs are long, but not terribly thin.
Right, and you also have the manga which shows both long and thin. I'm not playing dumb here, I know what you guys are complaining about. I'm saying it's baffling because it's clear where the designs are being influenced and that it's hard to make a fair judgment until it can be seen in motion. There is a huge difference in design versus animation, it's why many people prefer manga over anime and vice versa.

Besides all that, character designs aren't always exactly like the final product. Hell, there's plenty of anime that aren't exactly like the final result. Shaft, I'm looking at you. ><
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Old 2014-05-06, 23:14   Link #1560
wisteria233
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Solace View Post
Besides all that, character designs aren't always exactly like the final product. Hell, there's plenty of anime that aren't exactly like the final result. Shaft, I'm looking at you. ><
Not just the Shaft, remember Mai-Hime? It had a full trailer released for it, but the character designs story, and what not, ended up being very different from the final product. Or most Precure series, another franchise animated by Toei, who frequently has character designs that look very different when they are animated.

But as it stands the complaints are overblown, and many of them boil down to people being upset that the designs for this adaptation, don't resemble the first designs for the 90s anime, even though the 90s designs were a major deviation from the Naoko's designs anyway, and were altered with each season and the final designs contains the very same long skinny legs that they love to complain about. They're trying to justify their complaints, but considering how there isn't even a background to see the designs against for reference as to whether or not the designs work or not, or even more than one shot of the characters, so don't even have more than one shot to compare them to, to see whether or not its just due to the perspective of the poses.
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