Is it just me, or are anime sales this year really low?

[Cosmic Eagle]

Originally Posted by SeijiSensei

Japanese distributors have tried lowering prices from time to time, but the demand for anime is simply too inelastic for that to help. (Inelastic demand means that sales don't increase enough to compensate for the lower price.) Streaming and piracy enable people who want to watch a show but not own it to do so via both legal and illegal methods. That shrinks the disc market to collectors who are less price-sensitive. I'm pretty sure the pricing strategies used by Aniplex USA and Pony Canyon USA operate on this premise, too.

Japan has been less accepting of streaming than the West. Has that changed recently? Do we have any numbers on Japanese streaming subscribers like those Crunchyroll reports?

Well, BD buyers usually will be more hardcore fans but if you are going to look at it as a whole, then isn't ad revenue going to make up more of the income (not counting multimedia merchandise and stuff) since most viewers actually watch off TV or Nico?

[Pocari_Sweat]

Its worth to note that Japan despite being a high tech country, its sizably less online/internet savy than its Korean or Chinese east asia cousins. This is most significantly demonstrated by Japan's lack of interest in e-sports compared to the two, which is one the fastest growing industries today and is by now pretty much mainstream.

Something tells me the less interest in streaming is somehow related.

[Marcus H.]

It does seem worth mentioning that Osomatsu-san is on track to be one of the 10 top selling series of all-time, more or less.

Is it? Well, Osomatsu-san getting lots of sales is maybe because it's based on a long-running classic among the Japanese. Whether it proves anything (being a proof of people willing to cash in on something enjoyable or simply being an anomaly in anime sales) is unclear.

[Tactics]

Originally Posted by Pocari_Sweat

Its worth to note that Japan despite being a high tech country, its sizably less online/internet savy than its Korean or Chinese east asia cousins. This is most significantly demonstrated by Japan's lack of interest in e-sports compared to the two, which is one the fastest growing industries today and is by now pretty much mainstream.

Something tells me the less interest in streaming is somehow related.

Nope. Lack of interest in e-sports not related with that case.

Mind you that Japanese gaming culture grew up mainly with arcades, not something like DotA.
Fighting games is the most notable one (followed by rhythm and racing, IIRC), where strong players are truly strong.

Sorry for out of topic.

[Flower]

Originally Posted by Tactics

Nope. Lack of interest in e-sports not related with that case.

Mind you that Japanese gaming culture grew up mainly with arcades, not something like DotA.

Fighting games is the most notable one (followed by rhythm and racing, IIRC), where strong players are truly strong.

Sorry for out of topic.

From what I understand from your (and others') posts thus far ... you are basically saying that you feel "the West" (meaning America and Europe) has accepted streaming of multimedia in a much more "extensive" model, whereas Japan has accepted it, but not to the degree that is regarded as the "norm" in "the West", and which has produced some of the anime streaming companies and services such as CR, Funi, Netflix, Amazon, etc., etc.

As far as I can tell part of the reason such a thing does not exist so much in relation to anime in particular is because the tv stations throughout Japan are themselves airing the anime itself. As a result for anime streaming is not really "in demand" as much as a service (as it is in other countries) because it is "readily available" on the tv. Is this correct?

So while Japan as a country is a very "mobile" nation now it does not mean that it is "mobile" with the same focuses and emphases as exist in other countries - it caters its services to what the people of the country will purchase (hence the lack of focus, you feel, on e-Sports since most Japanese are "raised" on video games in a different model and environment, if I understand you right), and since anime is regarded to be able to be seen on tv in a fairly easy manner (I assume?) streaming it as a service is not seen as a worthwhile investment.

However ... with all this in mind there still remains the point 0utf0xZer0 brought up when he said:

Originally Posted by 0utf0xZer0

I'm curious about this as well as I was under the impression that the options for streaming anime in Japan weren't great. I remember one Japanese student I met saying that he actually found it easier to watch anime in Canada than in Japan due to most stuff being available on Crunchyroll. This would have been around late 2013 IIRC.

To me this implies that it is NOT readily available and easy to watch on all the channels - for whatever reasons. What could be some of the reasons that might contribute to such a statement? Does Japan also have a similar tv model as America of "commonly available broadcasting services" where the streaming of programs and the like are more "general" and limited, and then have "cable or satellite options" where multiple channels (or countries) would be readily available for extra $?

If so perhaps the person in question was only exposed to the common local channels with limited availability, and since streaming anime itself in a "mobile" sense does not seem to be common (outside of cable or satellite tv services?) that might account for the person mentioning what they felt were a lack of readily available anime viewing services or options or the like?

I would be interested to hear of your (or anyone else's) impressions on this matter.

[Guardian Enzo]

Originally Posted by Marcus H.

Is it? Well, Osomatsu-san getting lots of sales is maybe because it's based on a long-running classic among the Japanese. Whether it proves anything (being a proof of people willing to cash in on something enjoyable or simply being an anomaly in anime sales) is unclear.

I don't know what it proves, necessarily, but being based on a long-running (more like long-ago running, actually) series is hardly a predictor of success on disc. If anything that makes the current version's success even more unlikely.

[Pocari_Sweat]

Originally Posted by Tactics

Nope. Lack of interest in e-sports not related with that case.

Mind you that Japanese gaming culture grew up mainly with arcades, not something like DotA.
Fighting games is the most notable one (followed by rhythm and racing, IIRC), where strong players are truly strong.

Sorry for out of topic.

If you took it as a isolated case you might be right, but I'm seeing Japan lagging behind other entertainment mediums as well in this online-centric era.

Also fighting games scene is incomparable to the behemoths of LoL, Dota2 and CS:GO of which Japan is not really participators. They are not even involved in "2nd tier" esport games like Starcraft 2, Rocket League and Smite, which are all significantly bigger than fighting games too. I know this because I have been following e-sports for a long time (since Starcraft:BW days) and I've yet to see Japan ever pop up as a serious contender whilst I've seen pretty much every other major asian country and even countries you would think are "less tech" than Japan like Malaysia or Philippines get involved. It's a fact that in Japan online gaming isn't a really big thing, and services like Twitch exploded in popularity because of this industry.

Streaming is a big deal, and it's the same with anime. Anime, at least outside of Japan has recovered decently well and have grown with the likes of Crunchyroll doing what they are doing now and more people know of and are watching anime than ever on a global scale before because of streaming. Not to mention there is a big correlation between people who watch/like anime and play video games (people who do one, tend to the other) particularly online video games with a e-sports scene like the above.

I think Japan is simply lagging in that they are still very much relying on niche TV stations with latenight slots and physical copies whilst the rest of the world has decided to go the streaming route. Even Europe/NA seems to have progressed further than Japan now with the likes of Netflix, Hulu etc.

Anyways, it's become clear that anime can't survive in the longterm on disc sales/television broadcasts. Streaming and digital media is the way to go in the future and owning physical copies seem to be more for people who are more "hardcore" or a have a collectors mindset (and the money).

[0utf0xZer0]

Originally Posted by Flower

To me this implies that it is NOT readily available and easy to watch on all the channels - for whatever reasons. What could be some of the reasons that might contribute to such a statement? Does Japan also have a similar tv model as America of "commonly available broadcasting services" where the streaming of programs and the like are more "general" and limited, and then have "cable or satellite options" where multiple channels (or countries) would be readily available for extra $?

If so perhaps the person in question was only exposed to the common local channels with limited availability, and since streaming anime itself in a "mobile" sense does not seem to be common (outside of cable or satellite tv services?) that might account for the person mentioning what they felt were a lack of readily available anime viewing services or options or the like?

I would be interested to hear of your (or anyone else's) impressions on this matter.

My knowledge of this stuff is limited, but the impression I've gotten is that using over the air broadcasts is the norm in Japan, as compared to the States where most people get cable or satellite packages. And I've also gotten the impression that there's a fair bit of regional variation in broadcast offerings.

Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo

It does seem worth mentioning that Osomatsu-san is on track to be one of the 10 top selling series of all-time, more or less.

Before posting this thread I did consider Osumatsu-san's unexpected success, as well as that the latest entries in long running franchises like Monogatari and Fate are selling more or less exactly what I'd expect them to. But my own conclusion was that the overwhelming trend in 2016 - and to an extent 2015 as well - is shows selling way less than I would have expected. Not exactly what I'd consider an encouraging trend.

[tigerdragon2]

Why streaming not taking off in Japan?

It's easy: The copyrights holders are AGAINST it. They don't want streaming to eat into their physical sales.

Most of the popular physical books in Japan are not in ebooks to buy.
Most popular songs are not on any music streaming service. Spotify can't even expand to Japan, the world's #2 biggest music market.

[Tactics]

Originally Posted by 0utf0xZer0

So I've been watching this year's sales numbers come in. Based on the performances of previous shows of their kind, I would have expected shows like Macross Delta, Kabaneri and Re Zero to be selling tens of thousands of copies, and they aren't. And this is true across the boards: it feels like 10K is the new 20K and 4K is the new 8K. And while some of these shows had lackluster receptions, others, such as Re Zero, did not.

So what's going on here? Is the market for DVD and Bluray releases collapsing? And if so, how do shows expect to make money nowadays? Seems to me like most potential new revenue streams were already being tapped a few years ago when sales were much higher.

Sorry for late answer and distraction.

IMO, the reason is because consumer are now smarter. Looking at the trend, consumer now looking for a value of having DVD/BD of it.
With understanding of trends like you did, its not like its a critical situation as staffs must have expected sales in mind and preparation if it hit better, worse or just even; there's also different media like manga adaptation, drama CD, novel, etc. to consider.

For Re:Zero, its an adaptation after all, the main purpose is to lift the original medium sales. Never intended to compete with other anime sales.
I heard the response is good as the original medium sales increased significantly. Although not reaching same popularity as how Konosuba got second season green-lit, Re:Zero doing fine.

As for Macross Delta-- did you pay attention to their Valkyrie, I mean, Walkure?
During Walkure Mini Live held at a mall some times before, the amount of people enough to made you think you're looking at 'sea of human'.



Saving money is one of reason as well.
I remember there's talk about if holding back to buy Love Live BD until Love Live Final BD Set is good decision or not, something like that.
They're human after all. Their money is not infinite, and sometimes there's hardships to endure. Even hardcore fans have their moment to think twice.

... That's what I understand from some discussion I followed.

Spoiler for Contains out topic as this is supposed to be thread discussing sales:

Originally Posted by Flower

From what I understand from your (and others') posts thus far ... you are basically saying that you feel "the West" (meaning America and Europe) has accepted streaming of multimedia in a much more "extensive"
model, whereas Japan has accepted it, but not to the degree that is regarded as the "norm" in "the West", and which has produced some of the anime streaming companies and services such as CR, Funi, Netflix, Amazon, etc., etc.

As far as I can tell part of the reason such a thing does not exist so much in relation to anime in particular is because the tv stations throughout Japan are themselves airing the anime itself. As a result for anime streaming is not really "in demand" as much as a service (as it is in other countries) because it is "readily available" on the tv. Is this correct?

So while Japan as a country is a very "mobile" nation now it does not mean that it is "mobile" with the same focuses and emphases as exist in other countries - it caters its services to what the people of the country will purchase (hence the lack of focus, you feel, on e-Sports since most Japanese are "raised" on video games in a different model and environment, if I understand you right), and since anime is regarded to be able to be seen on tv in a fairly easy manner (I assume?) streaming it as a service is not seen as a worthwhile investment.

That's more or less like it. Glad you understand what I mean.

Regarding anime, television is far more reliable for Japanese.
Unlike us that need streaming, physical media, etc; what they need is simply a broadcasting schedule and (of course) a working television.
Just sit nice and turn on the tv following the schedule of anime you wanted to watch, voila, you get the latest anime scheduled right on your tv.

And the broadcasting stations is reliable enough to anime fans.
Example, before Gundam Unicorn hit theatre (IIRC) there's a channel re-airing Gundam, from Original to ZZ. Definitely help Gundam fans to refresh their memories of UC. Another example, before Muse's last concert (or movie, I forgot) there's some channels re-airing Love Live S1 & S2. A decision that, of course, pleased Love Live fans.

For Japanese, streaming helped in cases like:
"I have to work overtime and/or my schedule is tight, I have no choice but streaming."
"I'd like to watch the anime while also gave commentary for the episode as soon as possible, I'll go streaming then."

Originally Posted by Pocari_Sweat

Also fighting games scene is incomparable to the behemoths of LoL, Dota2 and CS:GO of which Japan is not really participators. They are not even involved in "2nd tier" esport games like Starcraft 2, Rocket League and Smite, which are all significantly bigger than fighting games too. I know this because I have been following e-sports for a long time (since Starcraft:BW days) and I've yet to see Japan ever pop up as a serious contender whilst I've seen pretty much every other major asian country and even countries you would think are "less tech" than Japan like Malaysia or Philippines get involved. It's a fact that in Japan online gaming isn't a really big thing, and services like Twitch exploded in popularity because of this industry.

Games is not about behemoths, but player enjoyment. I myself never enjoyed all games you mentioned, but several fighting games.
Don't underestimate fighting games (also side-scrolling action, racing, rhythm, etc) just because its not as popular as those games classified as e-sports

Originally Posted by tigerdragon2

Most of the popular physical books in Japan are not in ebooks to buy.
Most popular songs are not on any music streaming service. Spotify can't even expand to Japan, the world's #2 biggest music market.

I can't answer about music one, but at least can explain a bit about e-books.

Regarding e-books, mind you that Japanese favor physical books over e-books.
Some publishers workers said (on some news and show I watched) this is because "feeling of having something" exists on physical books but e-books; some said, "people find reading physical book is more comfortable and gave better experience than reading digital ones". They also said the companies once tried for e-books (for books like novel and textbook), turned out is not as popular as expected, effectively lead to decision to held plan for e-books until there's significant amount of response, just like how anime main audience is not us, but them, Japanese.

[Pocari_Sweat]

Originally Posted by Tactics

Games is not about behemoths, but player enjoyment. I myself never enjoyed all games you mentioned, but several fighting games. Don't underestimate fighting games (also side-scrolling action, racing, rhythm, etc) just because its not as popular as those games classified as e-sports

Never did I mention games in terms of "enjoyment". It's got nothing to do with it. I was talking about video games and esports in terms of "streaming" and online distribution in general and how Japan is slow on adapting to online distribution for all types of mediums in general. You're the one who brought up fighting/rhythmn games. I rebuted by saying fighting/rythmn do not really produce much streaming or online traffic anyway and even if they had a e-sports scene they are pretty minuscule compared to the one's I've mentioned. To give you an idea of how big they are, pro gamer salaries are often times larger than even a lot of the traditional sports. They earn six-digit salaries, excluding any tournament or prize winnings which for tournaments like dota can get up in the tens of millions if you're the winning team. And it's nearly done via "streaming" and online distribution.

Anime is the same. Japan is slow to realize that online distribution and streaming is how the rest of the world consumes anime whilst they still largely rely on the DVD/Bluray sales model. They risk falling behind even further if they don't adapt.

[Marcus H.]

It's easy: The copyrights holders are AGAINST it. They don't want streaming to eat into their physical sales.

That's weird since that shouldn't be a problem in the West. If they want a show they watch, they will get it regardless of whether it is available via streaming or not.

Is Japanese consumer culture at play here?

[SeijiSensei]

Originally Posted by Flower

To me this implies that it is NOT readily available and easy to watch on all the channels - for whatever reasons. What could be some of the reasons that might contribute to such a statement? Does Japan also have a similar tv model as America of "commonly available broadcasting services" where the streaming of programs and the like are more "general" and limited, and then have "cable or satellite options" where multiple channels (or countries) would be readily available for extra $?

Yes, Japan has a mix of terrestrial, cable, and satellite channels. Which of these are premium services requiring a subscription fee I do not know. I do know that some anime is carried on NHK BS1, TBS, WOWOW, and Fuji.

[Flower]

Thanks for all the answers folks. I think I have a much better general idea of things to be able to think about questions like this in the future.

[Flower]

Originally Posted by Pocari_Sweat

...Japan is slow to realize that "streaming" is how the rest of the world consumes anime whilst they still largely rely on the DVD/Bluray sales model. They risk falling behind even further if they don't adapt.

I wonder if they rely as heavily on the physical medium model as much in the past?

Earlier posts seem to indicate that the ground is slowly shifting money is being made off of anime related events, merchandise, etc., etc. and crossing over into other multimedia itself.

While the Japanese people seem to be a much more "hands on" people in terms of multimedia (books, discs, figures, etc. ) the fact that the disc sales seem to be much lower on average could be (perhaps?) a hint of sign of a slow movement more towards accepting "digital mediums"?

I wonder if "falling further behind" or even the fact that the rest of the world consumes anime through streaming is seen as a "problem" by the Japanese companies in the first place? We see it as a problem or "falling behind" because it is a service we wish for and are willing to pay for (to a degree). Perhaps the best argument we can bring is the "untapped source of possible $" angle?

Not trying to "argue a position" here, more so musing aloud on the subject, I guess....

[Archon_Wing]

Gouging a super niche audience that seems to grow even more niche every day that isn't exactly known for their economic power for all that money on a declining format? Pretty crazy to think that even blurays are old hat. I'm getting old.

Surprised it lasted that long. Maybe I'm just mad because I'm not rich and I think anime is still expensive given our prices.

[Moroboshi-kun]

Here are some actual facts of the matter:

From 2005 to 2015 the disc sales of "Animation for Grown-ups Domestic" has decreased from 18.4 million units to 11.7 million units (=decrease of 36%).

At the same time new anime series made has increased from about 130 series to about 250 series, i.e. roughly doubled.

It is fairly easy to conclude that the disc sales per series has gone down a lot.

This year statistics are not available yet of course, but the striking phenomenon has been the lack of hit series (i.e. series with average disc sales over 10'000 units). Last year there were 15 hit series, and so far this year there are 2 certain series from winter+spring and one certain series from summer, and couple of series which may or may not make it. Either we have massive fall season, or we come short dramatically.

[Guardian Enzo]

One thing that has to happen is that schedules have to get smaller - we don't need to see this many series produced. Putting together my Fall preview it's striking that the schedule is absolutely huge, and how few of them look really interesting.

There's a finite amount of spendable cash, because the target audience for anime is so tiny to begin with where disc buying is concerned. How can bloated production counts like this be sustainable?

[Moroboshi-kun]

The number of series is not necessarily what matters most, work comes from the animated minutes.

And interestingly enough, we are still below the top number of animated minutes reached in 2006 (or we were in 2014 from where we have the latest statistics, probably this year we will be at 2006 level).

The count of new series has ballooned, but so has the count of short-form anime too.

[SeijiSensei]

Originally Posted by Moroboshi-kun

The number of series is not necessarily what matters most, work comes from the animated minutes.

That might be true from a studio's perspective but not, I think, from the perspective of the production committee. Each new series requires administration, marketing, and similar overheads that have little to do with the length of the series. In terms of overheads, it probably costs about as much to mount a 13-episode production as a 26-episode series except for the week-to-week oversight involved.