Mobile Suit Gundam: Iron-Blooded Orphans Episode 9 Discussion / Poll

[Arya]

Originally Posted by Kurohane

Crank attempted to win the duel. Whatever small chance he had, he planned to use Kudelia as a bargaining chip against his superior, so that everyone could live.

My interpretation is different in that once Mikazuki learned there was no condition for winning, he just didn't care anymore. If anything, the fact that there's no malice is what makes it more disturbing.

Yep, Crank went to win. The fact that he didn't think and didn't give any condition if Tekkadan had won already set the "duel" as unfair.
About Mika, he understood Crank's way of thinking, actually it was something he was doing for his men (in a way his family), despite being unfair, but yeah, in the end he didn't care much because of it. The fact he didn't wait for Crank to end his speech also implied how he killed him out of his own decision. He just reached the conclusion there wasn't any good keeping him alive, he wouldn't have any value alive and so he stopped the chit-chat.

About the malice absence, Mika is disregarding everything unnecessary in order to be Orga's sword. And, as far as he is concerned, malice is not something necessary.

Originally Posted by Tactics

I do agree that Kudelia is the weakest although understandable considering her background.

I'd like she started being a bit more self-confident. The fact she asked Mika out of all people (and later Fumitan) gave the measure of how insecure she is. She didn't do it to break the mob boss pressure, but she do asked for an actual response.
Probably that's why I find this relation the only one weak. Her constant and inexplicable relying on Mika weakens her character IMHO. She even brought him up with Atra, but don't remember what she said, still it felt like uh?

[Skaddix]

What role cant see Kudelia doing much besides speeches...this ends in war no group gets up economic and political control for free, Gjhallahorn aint going out quietly. I guess she is technically Political Leader though

[kari-no-sugata II]

Originally Posted by LoweGear

This is another thing I like about IBO, and one that I think is related to the reason a lot of the people I know who didn't like or have become tired of Gundam before like Iron Blooded Orphans: namely, the character development is front and center here, and the show takes its time to make the characters more human in lots of ways. The only real stumble the series did that in IMHO was in episode 1, but that had action to compensate. afterwards though, the series slowly but surely makes sure that the viewers see the characters as people, even despite having only small glimpses of them from time to time.

And as shown in the last two episodes, having more glimpses of how the characters can act in different situations gives them a lot of depth. Orga is the perfect example as much of said character building is on him: we first knew him as a ruthless hardass who'll do anything for his group, then later we see that he does have ideals which he wants to uphold no matter if it's inconvenient (hence why he didn't just hand off Kudelia to Gjallarhorn), and now in the past two episodes we're discovering not just his inner motivations from which the two aforementioned sides of him come from, but also see that despite all that, he still knows how to laugh and have a good time like everyone else, and all presented in a way that doesn't feel forced or unnatural simply because they've dedicated the time to show it, which wouldn't be possible if it was truncated to just a couple of lines of dialogue inbetween action. He's badass without being a hardass (I admittedly borrowed this expression from someone else), competent without being a deus ex machine, and finally also a good friend and leader who cares about his non-blood family.

Mika also benefits from the same attention to laying out the cards in that he's no longer just a stoic super pilot: he has dreams and motivations that aren't just tied into fighting, and while he's clearly antisocial he's not unfriendly either, and in fact can crack a smile and wit whenever he needs to, even if it's not often. And while the initial impressions of him did peg him as something of Orga's brainless lackey, it's becoming increasingly clear that this isn't the case, and that Mika's willingness to follow Orga without question is mainly because his trust really is that deep, and that he still has his own rather pointed opinions on certain issues, like those that Kudelia is tackling. He's no supersoldier like Heero Yuy or Setsuna F. Seiei, but Mika has more relatable and visible humanity in him than with the aforementioned former examples.

Of the protagonist trio though, Kudelia has the weakest in the department due to some repetition of her resolve which is true, but even here by slowly hammering in what Tekkadan is going through, Kudelia's shifts in viewpoint becomes a lot more believable, especially in this recent episode where she accepts that she's going to see a lot more blood spilled before she's done, and yet she has to go ahead anyway in order to achieve her desire. I also like the fact that Kudelia's plans to make Mars prosper in peace isn't rooted in some lofty idealogy like "lay down arms" or "if people didn't hate" like in other Gundams, but in the reality of economic prosperity and the means to do so, thus preventing her from becoming a propaganda mouthpiece like some of her archetype were bound to do in previous series.

This and a lot more are part of why I'm liking IBO even without the action.

Good post!

Another thing I think they did well is to keep the story relatively simple and grounded with a clear emphasis on the protagonists.

Putting it another way: the characters are well thought out, the plot is well thought out and the setting is well thought out. Very little that seems forced, silly, unnecessary etc.

[hai_san]

For me the best ep so far, dunno why perhaps i am gunho about ceremonies and kimonos... perfect ep for a "background" slice of life without any fighting scenes.

[Thess]

Originally Posted by Arya

About the malice absence, Mika is disregarding everything unnecessary in order to be Orga's sword. And, as far as he is concerned, malice is not something necessary.
I'd like she started being a bit more self-confident. The fact she asked Mika out of all people (and later Fumitan) gave the measure of how insecure she is. She didn't do it to break the mob boss pressure, but she do asked for an actual response.
Probably that's why I find this relation the only one weak. Her constant and inexplicable relying on Mika weakens her character IMHO. She even brought him up with Atra, but don't remember what she said, still it felt like uh?

I don't think that's bad: Mika inspires people, not just her. Mika just gave her advice and she took all the choice on herself. She always knew the answer, but she was hoping she wouldn't be the one who to pull the trigger.

Actually I appreciate they are taking their time to examine her self-doubts. She's extremely lonely. But Tekkadan and the Turbines rely on the strength of family while Kudelia was betrayed by her own family and she hasn't 'found' a new family yet. She is Tekkadan client, but, unlike Atra and Fumitan, she's not fully accepted in the fold. At least she doesn't feel like "part of them" yet. I personally like the direction her character is taking because it feels like there's a pay off and that people aren't making everything easy to her. I absolutely despise when a character is universally loved, perceived as flawless except for the naivety (which means they are "pure") and only people who challenge them are 'misguided' or 'evil'.

Originally Posted by Nvis

You have a ship full of guys and a ship full of girls.........what can possibly go wrong?

It's a ship full of mothers married to one guy, and another filled with orphan kids who are all underage. That's why they are acting like surrogate parents to the orphans. Even if they are MILF, they think of them as children. I, for one, is extremely amused they didn't go for the cliché route to give the boys romantic interests and, instead, created a far more meaningful bond: family. At most the new woman might become Orga's pseudo girlfriend.

Edit: Great post, LoweGear. I agree absolutely with most of your points, though I don't feel Kudelia is the weakest, it's just the one that feels more isolate, so she lacks the morale Mika and Orga have (who are really good characters I didn't think I would like so much).

[Skaddix]

Really I think Kudelia's Problem is that a lot of love interest suffer in action movies or shows....she is worthless in combat. Fumitan is on the comms at least. Atra is the cook I guess but you dont expect much from her. Everyone else is a pilot, away team, on the bridge or in the mechanic room. All she does is vacillate over whether she is okay with people dying for her. She is not contributing much to Tekkadan now maybe she helps when she gets to Earth (that seems to be like half season before we get there though) but while teaching kids gives Atra more to do...we are not being asked to take Atra seriously as a Leader. Kudelia has issues with the mantle that Orga has but without actually delivering results....her claim to fame is one speech (offscreen) and a decent I mean realistic platform. But we haven't seen much to show her as charismatic leader capable of running a potential government. Mika has more Charisma...it goes without saying Orga does while also coming across as way more capable of running any government that this Mars Independence results in.

[Thess]

Originally Posted by Skaddix

Really I think Kudelia's Problem is that a lot of love interest suffer in action movies or shows....she is worthless in combat. Fumitan is on the comms at least. Atra is the cook I guess but you dont expect much from her. Everyone else is a pilot, away team, on the bridge or in the mechanic room. All she does is vacillate over whether she is okay with people dying for her. She is not contributing much to Tekkadan now maybe she helps when she gets to Earth (that seems to be like half season before we get there though) but while teaching kids gives Atra more to do...we are not being asked to take Atra seriously as a Leader. Kudelia has issues with the mantle that Orga has but without actually delivering results....her claim to fame is one speech (offscreen) and a decent I mean realistic platform. But we haven't seen much to show her as charismatic leader capable of running a potential government. Mika has more Charisma...it goes without saying Orga does while also coming across as way more capable of running any government that this Mars Independence results in.

Huh? Kudelia is paying them as their client. She's the reason why they still existed and could scrap by. How is that "not contributing much"? Kudelia and Orga are leaders but their battles are different: Kudelia's in a journey and her real fight starts on Earth. Orga is a military field leader and not diplomatic. Kudelia is doing a good job because if she wasn't, she wouldn't have been targetted as much.

[Skaddix]

How is Orga not diplomatic? He spends a good deal of his time negotiating with various people and showed some actual acumen paying severance packages and not executing all of the First Group.

Sure Kudelia provided money granted wasnt even her money but again I havent seen a damn thing that makes me think this girl has what it takes to run any government. She is good at speeches apparently....navigating politics is one giant question mark. All of Kudelia's "Good Work" was offscreen...Show Not Tell. And all we have seen is her having panic attacks, needing constant pep talks and fighting with Atra over Mika.

[kari-no-sugata II]

Originally Posted by Thess

Actually I appreciate they are taking their time to examine her self-doubts. She's extremely lonely. But Tekkadan and the Turbines rely on the strength of family while Kudelia was betrayed by her own family and she hasn't 'found' a new family yet. She is Tekkadan client, but, unlike Atra and Fumitan, she's not fully accepted in the fold. At least she doesn't feel like "part of them" yet. I personally like the direction her character is taking because it feels like there's a pay off and that people aren't making everything easy to her. I absolutely despise when a character is universally loved, perceived as flawless except for the naivety (which means they are "pure") and only people who challenge them are 'misguided' or 'evil'.

I agree with nearly everything you say but I would suggest she's not "integrated" rather than not "accepted". She's definitely accepted but she doesn't have a defined role - she only gets to do things when she volunteers. I guess you could say that there is a small wall between them still. She's the client and their interaction is temporary - she's not part of the "family" even if she's a "friend of the family".

Kudelia's overall characterisation and development is very interesting. Bit by bit she is changing. When episode 1 came out, I remember a number of readers wondering if she would be a "peace princess" type (or similar label) but instead she's going to Earth while being warned that what she's trying to do could trigger a war and even if she gets what she asks for it won't be easy to deal with the consequences. She accepts those warnings and is pressing ahead anyway. This isn't really a new concept for her, really, but more that her determination has increased even though the potential downsides have become much clearer. She is the agent of change while those opposing her want to keep the status quo.

My only complaint is they've left her a bit too vaguely defined, which results in me feeling frustrated. This clearly seems deliberate - there's very little we know about her that the orphans don't know. This means we have to guess some of her backstory and recent history.

My current best guess is her recent history is as follows: until that speech she was unknown except as her father's daughter, ie nobody special or interesting. I'd guess that her speech actually said little new - the problems of Mars and potential solutions almost certainly would have been raised before. Mars has slowly earned some autonomy over the years so it's far from unprecedented. I'd guess she managed to do (probably by accident) what all politicians try to do - frame the debate in a simple, straightforward and realistic seeming way that also had the right amount of emotional appeal. So she came from nowhere with a simple speech that captured the spirit of the times, leading to all the small factions rallying around her.

I'd guess she wasn't expecting the reaction she got at all - which clearly seems to have been big enough that even people outside of Mars are aware of it. But, since she is a sincere and serious person, she didn't let it go to her head and pressed ahead. She's smart, educated, has her eyes open, is open to new ideas etc but also green/untested and a bit naive. Slowly she is being tested. Slowly her naivety is fading. There's nothing indicating she could be fully ready by the time she reaches the Earth but it also seems that her request is likely to be granted if she can actually get to Earth. It's looking like her biggest problems will not be the politics on Earth but getting there in the first place, accepting the potential consequences along the way and dealing with the actual consequences.

Currently the "endgame" looks likely to be a war with Gjallarhorn vs everyone else. Unless the series ends with that war just getting started then I'd guess there won't be a second season, or if there is then it'd be a very different type of story.

[Skaddix]

I do wonder how Gjhallahorn has a power base....by that I mean they seem to be run by Seven Rich Famalies but they dont seem to have any actual territory. I guess they could have a few special administrative regions like Hong Kong.

[kari-no-sugata II]

Originally Posted by Skaddix

I do wonder how Gjhallahorn has a power base....by that I mean they seem to be run by Seven Rich Famalies but they dont seem to have any actual territory. I guess they could have a few special administrative regions like Hong Kong.

At the end of the war they seemed to have huge power - they could decide the fate of nations and worlds. I'm more curious about their economic base - how are they funded if they're purely a military organisation (if they are)?

On a side note, it seems possible that Gjallarhorn might start a war because people aren't grateful enough for them ending the previous war

[Skaddix]

Well they are going to have to since the 4 Earth Powers, MARS and JUPITER dont like them.

[Arya]

Originally Posted by Thess

I don't think that's bad: Mika inspires people, not just her. Mika just gave her advice and she took all the choice on herself. She always knew the answer, but she was hoping she wouldn't be the one who to pull the trigger.

Actually I appreciate they are taking their time to examine her self-doubts. She's extremely lonely. But Tekkadan and the Turbines rely on the strength of family while Kudelia was betrayed by her own family and she hasn't 'found' a new family yet. She is Tekkadan client, but, unlike Atra and Fumitan, she's not fully accepted in the fold. At least she doesn't feel like "part of them" yet. I personally like the direction her character is taking because it feels like there's a pay off and that people aren't making everything easy to her. I absolutely despise when a character is universally loved, perceived as flawless except for the naivety (which means they are "pure") and only people who challenge them are 'misguided' or 'evil'.

Well, I also think she is lonely and that she is sorta left out, or that she feels that way, feeling that stems from her inability to find a place/role that fits her in this new family. And if anything I think the end of episode addressed it overcoming it. The final remark Orga reworded changing it from personal to an inclusive "we all" stroke me like it served to let Kudelia feel included into the circle, or so her surprised response looked to me.

Back to the point I made, the fact is that if you portray a dynamic between two characters where one is inspirational to the other, I'd expect some progression from the other part to show how this inspiration influenced said part to give consistency to it. If it is fruitless the result is a pointless dynamic. And that's more or less where I'm finding myself when I look at Kudelia and Mika. I don't see a real dynamic.
And that's not still a problem for me, I'm just pointing it out, since it's something expected, Mika is not interested directly in Kudelia's path if not for what it could bring for Tekkadan. Or so it seems. So it's somehow obvious that his response to Kudelia results not being particularly relevant. This is more glaring when on the other face of the coin you have Orga who is also inspirational that is doing things (that she saw herself) far more akin to the path Kudelia is pursuing.
It's like kudelia is making little steps because she is looking in the wrong direction.

Now, the little detail Kudelia has been calling Orga Boss suggested me that she never looked at Orga because he looked out of her reach, a grown up. This idea fits with the portayal of Orga as the leader and on a meta level the parent of Tekkadan (but somehow put Kudelia into a kid). Still I find odd how Kudelia didn't see Orga efforts inspirational given the path she is following.

And to be clear, I'm not really complaining, I have zero problems with feeling frustrated by a character, but if it will be meaningful in the big picture sooner or later. I'm still not sure that's the case.


@kari-no-sugata II: that's also my take on Kudelia past. It seems likely given her portrayal so far.

[Skaddix]

I think the Kudelia-Mika dynamic was always going to suffer because it has to go against Orga-Mika which is better in everyway except maybe romantic and even that is debatable. But its also because Orga and Mika both drive each other and are worried about letting the other one down and getting left behind. Whereas Kudelia looks up to Mika but Mika isnt really concerned about what Kudelia's doing. I agree Kudelia aligns better with Orga. Mika is the guy who is really good at fighting but only does it because he has too for Orga and the Family...he much rather be on the Farm. Sure Orga does things for Mika and Family but he is the guy who is much more actively trying to change the world. Mika wouldnt have cared if Tekkadan did smaller missions as long as the gang stayed together....even without what Orga believes is pressure from Mika....cant see him being satisfied with that. Kudelia is also more in the changing the world business and there is nothing to suggest she wants to retire to the farm after she does that.

[kari-no-sugata II]

Originally Posted by Arya

Now, the little detail Kudelia has been calling Orga Boss suggested me that she never looked at Orga because he looked out of her reach, a grown up. This idea fits with the portayal of Orga as the leader and on a meta level the parent of Tekkadan (but somehow put Kudelia into a kid). Still I find odd how Kudelia didn't see Orga efforts inspirational given the path she is following.

There's a subtle thing here... Kudelia and Fumitan both call Orga "dancho-san" while the rest of the orphans say "dancho" but I don't see a way to translate the distinction into English so both just end up being "boss" I guess. Kudelia and Fumitan are using -san since they're not part of the group - ie it implies that they are outsiders. Maybe a way to keep this distinction would be if dancho-san was translated as "captain" or something to differentiate them to the others since "boss" feels a bit misleading.

She switches to calling him "Orga" at the end of this episode (I'm not quite sure why, though possibly as a way to be more familiar with him). I wonder if she will continue that - quite possibly.

I think she has picked up some things from Orga, but yeah, so far it's mostly been her and Mika.

[Skaddix]

Not that Mika is bad for advice since he looks at thinks in a special way and an outside the box thinker is always useful...however her field of interest aligns far closer to Orga....funny she gives him more of honorific considering she is a Princess but who knows maybe she is just being formal.

[Thess]

Originally Posted by Arya

Back to the point I made, the fact is that if you portray a dynamic between two characters where one is inspirational to the other, I'd expect some progression from the other part to show how this inspiration influenced said part to give consistency to it. If it is fruitless the result is a pointless dynamic. And that's more or less where I'm finding myself when I look at Kudelia and Mika. I don't see a real dynamic.

I think there is a real dynamic, because they haven't established common ground except in little things. That's what Kudelia is struggling in general, as a symbol for her path. Mika has changed in his attitude toward Kudelia noticeably. Right, she's not his priority but she shouldn't be other than their business association.

Originally Posted by Arya

Now, the little detail Kudelia has been calling Orga Boss suggested me that she never looked at Orga because he looked out of her reach, a grown up. This idea fits with the portayal of Orga as the leader and on a meta level the parent of Tekkadan (but somehow put Kudelia into a kid). Still I find odd how Kudelia didn't see Orga efforts inspirational given the path she is following.

I think in the case of Orga-Kudelia-Mika relationship is that Kudelia and Orga both find inspiration in Mika and had push provided by his presence, a common ground. I also feel like while Mika is the element that is present when Kudelia feels unstable, Orga's the one who hears about her determination and resolution. It's like Mika questions her of what she'll do, while she finishes her resolve near Orga or for Orga to witness. The same happened in episode 3.

Originally Posted by kari-no-sugata II

I agree with nearly everything you say but I would suggest she's not "integrated" rather than not "accepted". She's definitely accepted but she doesn't have a defined role - she only gets to do things when she volunteers. I guess you could say that there is a small wall between them still. She's the client and their interaction is temporary - she's not part of the "family" even if she's a "friend of the family".

That's a good way to describe her.

Originally Posted by kari-no-sugata II

She is the agent of change while those opposing her want to keep the status quo.

This is exactly why I find her interesting vs the regular mecha princess. She just cut a deal with the Mafia, taking responsibility for the bloodshed and sticking to her principles to get what has to be done.

Originally Posted by kari-no-sugata II

My only complaint is they've left her a bit too vaguely defined, which results in me feeling frustrated. This clearly seems deliberate - there's very little we know about her that the orphans don't know. This means we have to guess some of her backstory and recent history.

I agree with this. We know she's a University student, so she might be a genius in her field. I suspect we're supposed to learn more about her eventually.

Originally Posted by kari-no-sugata II

It's looking like her biggest problems will not be the politics on Earth but getting there in the first place, accepting the potential consequences along the way and dealing with the actual consequences.

And this is important, because it's testing her resolve: is she ready to pay the price for her goal? I think she'll become someone who can shake Mika's hand without hesitation because she, like Mika, would get her hands dirty to achieve her dream.

[Skaddix]

Sure she is inspired by Mika like Orga but that is kinda where it ends...the dynamic is not the same because while Mika pushes Orga to be better, Orga also pushes Mika to get better its symbiotic. Not one sided.

Of course next week, we get Mika and Atra so that should be interesting

[Thess]

Originally Posted by Skaddix

Sure she is inspired by Mika like Orga but that is kinda where it ends...the dynamic is not the same because while Mika pushes Orga to be better, Orga also pushes Mika to get better its symbiotic. Not one sided.

I don't think it'll remain like that. The handshake thing between Kudelia and Mika, where she's acknowledged, has to happen eventually. Mika just doesn't have a lot of interest in politics, he's recently learned what Kudelia wanted and he approves of it. But this can't happen yet, because it's a major ongoing storyarc. This doesn't mean she'll interfere with his dream or his relationship with Orga, I think she's complimenting them in fields they can't reach once she does her job. She allowed them to stay together thanks to her money and her efforts for independence would allow Mika get his dream farm, IMO.

[Skaddix]

Really I think Mika has acknowledged Kudelia but he doesnt care about Politics nor do I see much to suggest that Mika is all that interested in changing the world...making things better for his family sure...actively changing the world sure if a guy like Orga thinks its a good idea.