[Game] Umineko - Spoilers, Theories, Interpretations

[Jan-Poo]

It looks like you completely and totally ignored all the lengthy explanations about visual conditions that make Shannon's and Kyrie's cases a lot different.

It is as if you say that if someone mistakingly consider someone dead in a dark room then everyone can make the same mistake under a bright sun.

[ijriims]

I think I need to analyse the situation more rigorously:

The reason that Shannon could fake her death was because her body was not seen. Then what kind of situation can it be?

Only 4 possible situations:

1-The body existed and that was Shannon's body.

2-The body existed and that was not Shannon's body.

3-The body did not exist as that was not human body at all (Mannequin, for example).

4-The body did not exist as there was nothing at all.

Let me ask you guys something first: what is the definition of body-double trick? Is it the use of another corpse, made alike your own body, to fake your own death? Or a broader definition, is it the use of anything (including body or non-body), made alike your own body, to fake your own death?

If what is meant by body-double trick is the first meaning, the use of psudo-body does not contravene the red texts.

Now go back to the analysis:


In the first case, Shannon did not fake her death. So rejected if Shannon did fake her death.

In the second case, Shannon played a body-double trick, as the body was identified as Shannon. It contravenes the red texts on both definition of "body-double trick".

In the third case, Shannon again played a body-double trick, it contravene the second definition of "body-double trick" but not the first one.

In the fourth case, Shannon did not play a body-double trick under both definitions. But it requires Hideyoshi and Kanon pretending there was a body in the garden shed.

So, in all your hypothesis that Shannon faked her death, which one was the case? Or I have not exhausted all the cases?

If the second one was true, then whether Battler saw the body was irrelevant (Shannon did put a body there to fake her death, it was true no matter Battler saw it or not). And this applied for Kyrie as well.

If the third one was true, then again whether Battler saw the body was irrelevant(same argument as above). And Kyrie could put the same trick here as well.

What matters was the fourth one, only in this case the fact that Battler did not see the body was relevant. In this case, since Kyrie's body was seen by Battler, I admit then she must be dead under the second definition of body-double trick. However, one needed to explain why Hideyoshi would pretend there was a body and how he knew the ring George gave was a diamond ring.


I think I have formally posted my argument. Hopefully someone could answer it for me.

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By the way, IIRC what Battler described clearly was Rudolf's face. Not Kyrie's one. And could we actually say that Battler examined the body clear and well at that moment? He thought his parents were dead and crushed in the face. I think it is realistic to say his psychological state at that time was not stable (you could reread the chapter to confirm this point), thus any careful examination by Battler was unlikely (at best, it was visual examination). In fact, only the adults were sober enough in that scene. I would say Hideyoshi handled the situation very well at that time, so his overlook on the fake body was unlikely (though there was always a chance since he only met her a few times per year).

What is amazing to me is that people said Shannon made a close-to-real model to fake her death but that was not a body-double trick, while Kyrie made a close-to-real model to fake her death and that was a body-double trick.

[Kitsu]

Never heard of use of make up and wax and other nice stuff to creat a "smashed half"? My old middle school first aid and paramedic team which I blonged too did that stuff for the school festival.

[chronotrig]

Originally Posted by Geekodot

Yes, he locked the door from the inside and just died with a stake stuck in his chest...

And why is that so unlikely? If the culprit left the room after wounding Gohda, Gohda would have 3 choices as long as he didn't truly die instantly: just lay there and die, leave the room to get help, or lock the door to prevent the culprit from coming back.

Since leaving the room to get help would actually require that he follow the culprit, I seriously doubt he'd even think about doing that. And since his corpse was found just inside the door, he wouldn't have to walk or even stand up straight to lock the door. If anything, this is probably the most reasonable solution to that closed room. This being Umineko however, that doesn't mean it's the true solution, of course.

[Kitsu]

And why is that so unlikely? If the culprit left the room after wounding Gohda, Gohda would have 3 choices as long as he didn't truly die instantly: just lay there and die, leave the room to get help, or lock the door to prevent the culprit from coming back.

Especially if you think that Kanon had a similair wound and was even able to pull the stake out.

[Geekodot]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

It looks like you completely and totally ignored all the lengthy explanations about visual conditions that make Shannon's and Kyrie's cases a lot different.

It is as if you say that if someone mistakingly consider someone dead in a dark room then everyone can make the same mistake under a bright sun.

In such a situation, I don't believe Shannon could lie completely calm with paint/blood all over her face while Hideyoshi observed her and not make any signs that she was alive. Also, Hideyoshi might have kept out the nice details about her crushed face because of George being there right? Makes more sense to me than if he mistaked her when she actually was alive.

Originally Posted by chronotrig

And why is that so unlikely? If the culprit left the room after wounding Gohda, Gohda would have 3 choices as long as he didn't truly die instantly: just lay there and die, leave the room to get help, or lock the door to prevent the culprit from coming back.

Since leaving the room to get help would actually require that he follow the culprit, I seriously doubt he'd even think about doing that. And since his corpse was found just inside the door, he wouldn't have to walk or even stand up straight to lock the door. If anything, this is probably the most reasonable solution to that closed room. This being Umineko however, that doesn't mean it's the true solution, of course.

Yeah, i thought about it like 2 min after I posted, but let it be because it was a pain... Just was confused by the damn magic scene into thinking it was an instant death.

[Kitsu]

In such a situation, I don't believe Shannon could lie completely calm with paint/blood all over her face while Hideyoshi observed her and not make any signs that she was alive. Also, Hideyoshi might have kept out the nice details about her crushed face because of George being there right? Makes more sense to me than if he mistaked her when she actually was alive.

Hideyoshi didn't observe her at all, the observer was Kanon. Hideyoshi didn't seem to be able to look at her for long.

[Ithekro]

Possibility 5. It is Shannon and she's not dead...she's made to look like she is dead. Halloween makeup...or better, but Halloween makeup would fit the time of year and not be science stuff or "small bombs" territory. Considering how effective the stuff can be, if well used, it is possible to make someone look like half their face is gone in low light conditions. Keeping her breathing down might be possible in such a low light condition...also to keep the smell of everyone else's bodies out.

Though it is difficult to fake a fully smashed face..Hollywood uses dummies made from casting of the actors involved if they have to make something like that.

[ijriims]

Originally Posted by Ithekro

Possibility 5. It is Shannon and she's not dead...she's made to look like she is dead. Halloween makeup...or better, but Halloween makeup would fit the time of year and not be science stuff or "small bombs" territory. Considering how effective the stuff can be, if well used, it is possible to make someone look like half their face is gone in low light conditions. Keeping her breathing down might be possible in such a low light condition...also to keep the smell of everyone else's bodies out.

Though it is difficult to fake a fully smashed face..they Hollywood uses dummies made from casting of the actors involved if they have to make something like that.

Show me a picture of such a makeup then I will instantly believe one could make up oneself to look like half of the face go missing. Not computer animation.

And to use your own body to fake your own death, does it qualify as a body-double trick?

But I admited I overlook this possibility.

[Geekodot]

Originally Posted by Kitsu

Hideyoshi didn't observe her at all, the observer was Kanon. Hideyoshi didn't seem to be able to look at her for long.

Well, Hideyoshi DID observe it.

[Kitsu]

No it doesn't count at all due the fact that there is no DOUBLE. And why do you forget that Kyrie and the oterhs were seen in the light of the outside but Shannon was hidden in a dark corner in which you can't see her clearly.

But hearing your posts you think that noone of the first twilight in Ep 1 can be the mastermind ecause no of them could have faked their deaths, right?

Well, Hideyoshi DID observe it.

For a little bit of time looking at her face in a really DARK corner in a moment of shock and disgust....most reliable witness ever..and yes I'm being sarcastic

[Geekodot]

Originally Posted by Kitsu

No it doesn't count at all due the fact that there is no DOUBLE. And why do you forget that Kyrie and the oterhs were seen in the light of the outside but Shannon was hidden in a dark corner in which you can't see her clearly.

But hearing youm posts you think that noone of the first twilight in Ep 1 can be the mastermind ecause no of them could have faked their deaths, right?



For a little bit of time looking at her face in a really DARK corner in a moment of shock and disgust....most reliable witness ever..and yes I'm being sarcastic

Ok, it's really pointless to argue much further about this... after all as long as the box isn't opened, both statements are equally true...

There isn't decisive proof that Shannon didn't fake her death and i've never said that it was impossible, just improbable and I still believe it is really unlikely.

[Ithekro]

http://www.stagnightofthedead.com/bl...-rocks-cannes/

Guy at the bottom appear to have most of his face removed. He doesn't look dead in the shot because he's being photographed for a what I assume in a make up test. Now put him in a dark room early in the morning.

(I found this by an image search for "movie dead makeup". I don't particularly like horror films myself. Or makeup of this kind.)

If you want Halloween style non-Hollywood stuff, just use "halloween" instead of "movie"...you'll find some fairly creative uses for makeup as well...some of which looks about as good as what Hollywood can do.

[Jan-Poo]

Well you know, I also said it isn't very likely ^^;

I was making a comparison with Kyrie in whose case faking her own death is practically impossible imho...

[Kaiba]

Originally Posted by Geekodot

How did Genji kill them inside the room?xD
Red text doesn't permit it.


-Natsuhi's room was exactly the same, just like usual
-The door and the windows were locked from the inside
-There is no fraud or trick, there is no means of secret passage and no hidden place
-Natsuhi's own key was in George's pocket and the inside of the room was closed off
-Only the five master keys were left, and 'Rosa' was holding all of them
-After the master keys came into Rosa's control, never did any of them leave her hands!
-Except for the time when she lent it to Battler to unlock Natsuhi's room.

Easy. When is it stated that George, Shannon, and Gohda were the only ones in the room when they died? Sure, a room can be locked to keep people out - but it can also be locked to keep people in.

By the way, IIRC what Battler described clearly was Rudolf's face. Not Kyrie's one.

However, if the anime and manga are anything to go by (and I believe they are), Battler clearly saw Kyrie's face, making this a moot point.

1-The body existed and that was Shannon's body.

2-The body existed and that was not Shannon's body.

3-The body did not exist as that was not human body at all (Mannequin, for example).

4-The body did not exist as there was nothing at all.

It's the first possibility. The body existed, it was Shannon's body, but Shannon wasn't dead.
As for Hideyoshi and Kanon, I submit a few things for them:
I'm going to go ahead and hurl in Jan-Poo's theory into this, in that fake murders were planned by Kinzo and such for the sake of solving of the riddle, but that the fake murders turned all too real. Hideyoshi, among others, was in on it, which was why he declared Shannon dead - he knew Shannon was faking, but he lied for an innocuous reason.
As for Kanon, where is it stated he saw her face? He identified the body, but giving his loyalties towards Shannon, I doubt he would bother examining a (fake) half-crushed face too closely.

Beatrice as a real person living on Rokkenjima and knew real magic

I don't get this, as I stated earlier. Either 1. Beatrice is one of the 17, which pretty much everyone acknowledges anyways or 2. Beatrice is not one of the 17, which obviously violates red truths. There's nothing to see here.

[Kitsu]

As for Kanon, where is it stated he saw her face? He identified the body, but giving his loyalties towards Shannon, I doubt he would bother examining a (fake) half-crushed face too closely.

Kanon was described to be staring down at her face for a really long time without saying much etc.

[Workworkwork]

Originally Posted by Kaiba

I don't get this, as I stated earlier. Either 1. Beatrice is one of the 17, which pretty much everyone acknowledges anyways or 2. Beatrice is not one of the 17, which obviously violates red truths. There's nothing to see here.

Beatrice IS one of the 17. She's just... in disguise as somebody for an unknown reason. Perhaps to do with Battler's sin. I'm talking about Piece-Beatrice. AKA Meta-Beatrices' piece. AKA the Blonde and Bouncy witch we know and love. Is that specific enough?

You fiends are trying to murder Beato just as heartlessly as Erika did!

[Kitsu]

Beatrice IS one of the 17. She's just... in disguise as somebody for an unknown reason. Perhaps to do with Battler's sin.

You fiends are trying to murder Beato just as heartlessly as Erika!

It's more like "Beatrice" doesn't really exists, I guess. Someone disguises as Beatrice maybe but I don't think it is the other way around. O btw didn't Battler promised to kill Beatrice anyway and isn't it ridicules to assume that the character of lets say "Jessica" is just a disguise for Beatrice. A character we learned so mcuh about in non-magic scenes and interacted so much with the detective is "fake". don't be unreasonable.

[Workworkwork]

Originally Posted by Kitsu

It's more like "Beatrice" doesn't really exists, I guess. Someone disguises as Beatrice maybe but I don't think it is the other way around. O btw didn't Battler promised to kill Beatrice anyway and isn't it ridicules to assume that the character of lets say "Jessica" is just a disguise for Beatrice. A character we learned so mcuh about in non-magic scenes and interacted so much with the detective is "fake". don't be unreasonable.

So you don't think Beato is real simply because there's no proof that she exists?

Battler saw her near the end of EP4, and I myself am surprised I am saying this, but I cannot wait for the anime's version to come out so people can stop saying "BUT IT WAS DARK AND FORGET ABOUT THE MOON AND THE LIGHTNING AND THAT PIECE-BATTLER SAW HER AND DESCRIBED SEEING HER CLEARLY, IT'S A SHAM!"

He did promise to kill her.

Buuuut, that could simply mean killing her meta-self, aka the reason she made the game to begin with. Or by discovering the truth, by which point she was dead anyway.

By the way, who the hell would Battler end up with, assuming Beato isn't real? An incestuous pedophile with two underaged fangirls, with one being his half-sister and the other his cousin?

[Ithekro]

Shipping is clouding your perceptions. The red says there are no more than 17 people on the island, this is true for all games, except when Erika is added and they cover that in red as well.

Therefore unless someone else (besides Kinzo) is dead and replaced by Beatrice..."Beatrice", as a person on the island, does not exist. If she is is present on the island, and all 17 people we know also exist on the island, than one of them is playing the role of "Beatrice".

There is no other way around that at this time.

Beato on the other hand, is a Meta character...she can stay as she is because it doesn't matter since she's not on the island...nor is Meta-Battler.

Human "Beatrice" either does not exist, replaced someone we know, or is being played by someone we know. Any of these will ruin a shipper's ideals....just which ship will sink is the question. (She can't be 1967 or earlier Beatrice, because they are dead...in red)