AnimeSuki Forums

Ithekro · 2013-03-30, 00:48

I wonder if there are more than just 16 city ships for Japanese schools? We only know of 16 that participated in this tournament. Ooarai didn't participate for about 20 years. Plus if the tournament structure has been the same, that means there was another school that participaed instead of Ooarai (16 schools in eight brackets up to the Finals).

That doesn't mean the other school closed down. it is possible some other school decided to end their tank program. Or that out of all the schools they have a lottery and some aren't picked that year. Ooarai's entry was kind of random to begin with. (The student council talking to the administrator flashback in episode 9 sort of makes their description to the student body of what the education department's desire for more sensha-do programs in episode 1 sort of suspect).

Random Wanderer · 2013-03-30, 00:53

While they are cities, the series appears to be using "school" logic for them. Think about it. Who was the organization that was spoken to when the decision was made for the school to be shut down? Not a mayor. Not any sort of town leadership. It was brought to the Student Council. And the Student Council was able to decide on a course of action that would determine the future for the entire ship, without having to consult with anyone. They had the authority to decide for everyone on the ship. Because the ship is their school, and they are its Student Council.

The series treats these ships with school dynamics. Even large portions of their crew are apparently made up of students. Any insistence that it logically shouldn't be that way is overriden by the simple fact that it IS that way, like it or not.

Ithekro · 2013-03-30, 01:01

Does the school do lessons in three 8 hour watches so the girls that run the ship can get there lessons and yet still run the ship in standard naval fashion?

RX-78GP04G Gerbera · 2013-03-30, 01:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Random Wanderer

While they are cities, the series appears to be using "school" logic for them. Think about it. Who was the organization that was spoken to when the decision was made for the school to be shut down? Not a mayor. Not any sort of town leadership. It was brought to the Student Council. And the Student Council was able to decide on a course of action that would determine the future for the entire ship, without having to consult with anyone. They had the authority to decide for everyone on the ship. Because the ship is their school, and they are its Student Council.

The series treats these ships with school dynamics. Even large portions of their crew are apparently made up of students. Any insistence that it logically shouldn't be that way is overriden by the simple fact that it IS that way, like it or not.

Yeah, that's something that can be overlooked at times; the fact that, at the end of the day, it's still just an anime. As realistic as they may want to make them in some way, it's still just an anime, so there will more than likely be times where "real world logic" just can't be applied for one reason or another simply BECAUSE it's an anime using its own brand of logic, as ridiculous as it may seem.

willx · 2013-03-30, 01:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by RX-78GP04G Gerbera

Yeah, that's something that can be overlooked at times; the fact that, at the end of the day, it's still just an anime. As realistic as they may want to make them in some way, it's still just an anime, so there will more than likely be times where "real world logic" just can't be applied for one reason or another simply BECAUSE it's an anime using its own brand of logic, as ridiculous as it may seem.

Magic carbon lin-.. er, student council and aircraft carrier sized ship-management goodness?

arkhangelsk · 2013-03-30, 01:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ithekro

I wonder if there are more than just 16 city ships for Japanese schools? We only know of 16 that participated in this tournament.

I don't deny the possibility that there are more than 16 city ships, but as long as there are not grossly more ships, my point of Oarai's relative importance will still hold.

Quote:

Ooarai didn't participate for about 20 years. Plus if the tournament structure has been the same, that means there was another school that participaed instead of Ooarai (16 schools in eight brackets up to the Finals).

That doesn't mean the other school closed down. it is possible some other school decided to end their tank program.

Or maybe we had team (KMM?) that was the Seed - that's how such problems are often solved.

Quote:

Or that out of all the schools they have a lottery and some aren't picked that year.

The idea there was a lottery would seem to be out of line with MEXT's request to increase investment in tankery - they tell people to put effort and then they won't let them even compete?

If a lot of ships don't participate in the tournament at all, the more Tankery looks absolutely unpopular. Yeah, OK, Erika said that teams that would embarass Tankery just shouldn't participate, but still considering the composition of some of the teams, that bar must be rather low. If so many ships don't meet that low-bar...

Quote:

Ooarai's entry was kind of random to begin with. (The student council talking to the administrator flashback in episode 9 sort of makes their description to the student body of what the education department's desire for more sensha-do programs in episode 1 sort of suspect).

Lies are best cloaked in truth. Besides, the administrator's willingness to agree puts some teeth into the idea that Japan really was eager for more tankery candidates.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Random Wanderer

While they are cities, the series appears to be using "school" logic for them. Think about it. Who was the organization that was spoken to when the decision was made for the school to be shut down? Not a mayor. Not any sort of town leadership. It was brought to the Student Council. And the Student Council was able to decide on a course of action that would determine the future for the entire ship, without having to consult with anyone. They had the authority to decide for everyone on the ship. Because the ship is their school, and they are its Student Council.

The series treats these ships with school dynamics. Even large portions of their crew are apparently made up of students. Any insistence that it logically shouldn't be that way is overriden by the simple fact that it IS that way, like it or not.

I did not say they weren't a school first. But for one thing, they are still for all the declining attendance a very large school, and for another thing, it is undeniable they are a city as well. So IMHO you can't just cut and paste the standard "close-school" difficulty level onto our current situation while completely ignoring the little detail they are a city with real families aboard as well, or ignore their relative rarity by pretending they are just as unimportant in the grand scheme of things as the real Oarai Prefectural High.

Gravitas Free Zone · 2013-03-30, 01:29

This kinda takes Absurdly Powerful Student Council to new heights, though.

(Shouldn't the council be a bit larger also?)

Sumeragi · 2013-03-30, 01:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by arkhangelsk

I did not say they weren't a school first. But for one thing, they are still for all the declining attendance a very large school, and for another thing, it is undeniable they are a city as well. So IMHO you can't just cut and paste the standard "close-school" difficulty level onto our current situation while completely ignoring the little detail they are a city with real families aboard as well, or ignore their relative rarity by pretending they are just as unimportant in the grand scheme of things as the real Oarai Prefectural High.

As I said, Japan is a country willing to shutting down entire towns through annexation if it serves no purpose. That's what has been going on in the past decade, with various towns being consolidated directly to a larger city, closing of regional offices, subsidized moving of families.

arkhangelsk · 2013-03-30, 01:49

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Municip...tions_in_Japan

Please tell me that this voluntary process bears any resemblance to what was about to befall Oarai. Sure, because it may have been de jure classified as a School rather than a City, MEXT might have gained the legal power to force compliance, but since it is de facto a city, the backlash won't be smaller for it.

Ithekro · 2013-03-30, 01:51

Plus they could always move those people to the actual town of Ooarai. Or go to where the students go.

One might note that the familes of some of the students were not on the city ship. Many live in the actual town in the mainland. Yukari's was on the ship, but Hana and Mako's were not. (Miho's was not either but she's a transfer student). No clue about Shiori' or any of the other girls.

Sumeragi · 2013-03-30, 01:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by arkhangelsk

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Municip...tions_in_Japan

Please tell me that this voluntary process bears any resemblance to what was about to befall Oarai. Sure, because it may have been de jure classified as a School rather than a City, MEXT might have gained the legal power to force compliance, but since it is de facto a city, the backlash won't be smaller for it.

Yes, it resembles what would have fell upon Ooarai. Only difference is, the anime made it sudden so as to make it dramatic. Any closing of schools/towns would have had prior notification, not this kind of "we're closing next year, and we're letting only a select few know" which can only happen in fiction.

arkhangelsk · 2013-03-30, 02:00

Did the first sentence on consensus completely blow past you? That's not a trivial difference, you know? No matter how you play it, we saw real families on that ship, and MEXT's actions are equivalent to 強制疎開 (forced evacuation) by government fiat. I'm sure that they followed the law, but it'll be very hard to believe they really think they can do this without a very strong backlash.

Sumeragi · 2013-03-30, 02:05

Because, my dear arkhangelsk, "consensus" isn't always the nice consensus you think it to be, especially in Japanese politics. "Encouragement" goes a long way towards compulsory "consensus".

Wild Goose · 2013-03-30, 02:22

So basically the federal Japanese government bullies the small towns into getting its way?

Sumeragi · 2013-03-30, 02:24

Not just the federal government, the prefectures also have a hand. After all, most of the money subsidizing those small towns come from the prefectures, so there is also an interest for the prefectures to see consolidation.

arkhangelsk · 2013-03-30, 02:25

Oh, that's always true everywhere, and voluntariness is generally incomplete, but we are not even seeing the facade of "consensus" this time, are we? As you yourself point out, we barely even see notification - and they definitely so no sign of trying pressure tactics first.

I really don't get this. Everyone seems very eager to insist that Oarai wasn't just an easier (OK, this is undeniable or they'd have picked someone else to start with) victim, but an easy one. That Oarai didn't just happen to have 6 points on its "Closability" Matrix and the next worst had 5.8 so Oarai got nicked. Instead, everyone wants our protagonist school to have a Closability of 10 while everyone else has 1 or 2.

And there seems at least as little evidence to support this version, so I wonder why it seems so desirable.

Sumeragi · 2013-03-30, 02:27

Drama. Is there any other reason for pulling out such a sudden move without public notification, especially in fiction?

Anh_Minh · 2013-03-30, 04:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by arkhangelsk

I actually agree with most of what you say. However, Oarai, while one of the smallest, is still one of a very limited number of schoolships - its relative value is still much higher than the real Oarai Prefectural High.

As for the characteristics part, I agree, and that's why KMM is high on the list - it is supposed to be the German school, but even Guderian quotations are given in Japanese. So it is weak on the national characteristics scale. It might be renowned for the tank fleet, but over the past two years this has turned into a joke, so a positive now turns into a negative.

KMM has been in the finals of the IH for at least the last 12 years, and only lost the last 2. That's not actually a bad performance, and I doubt anyone's going to look closer at whether they're actually skilled or not.

And if they do look just a bit closer? Well, they lost once to Pravda, another powerhouse, and to Oarai, who, while dark horses themselves, beat two powerhouses on their way to the top.

arkhangelsk · 2013-03-30, 05:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

KMM has been in the finals of the IH for at least the last 12 years, and only lost the last 2. That's not actually a bad performance, and I doubt anyone's going to look closer at whether they're actually skilled or not.

And if they do look just a bit closer? Well, they lost once to Pravda, another powerhouse, and to Oarai, who, while dark horses themselves, beat two powerhouses on their way to the top.

You are probably right that the bureaucrats usually don't look that closely.

However, let's get back to the little revelation they apparently have an "Armored Department" (kikouka) instead of just a Tankery elective. Which means that one of their specialties is professional tankers, which are presumably supplied to the SDF and Senshado organizations upon graduation. Their Sensha-do team should be a cut better than all the others just as we expect a Professional team to be significantly better than an amateur one.

Their loss this year (definitely) and last year (almost certainly, considering they still apparently had the superior fit), is a symptom of very poor training in their tankers, and thus, their alumni. Since these didn't just happen all of a sudden, but is a multi-year process, it can be inferred (unless the SDF and Senshado organizations have no standards at all) that complaints about the declining alumni quality have been swimming around for at least several years.

However, from what little we can see in the show Nishizumi students have infiltrated in substantial strength in the SDF (Chouno Ami being one) and presumably Senshado organizations. That would create a base of support that can act as "authorities" to muddle the waters and prevent the bureaucrats (who probably don't know a PzI from a Maus) from getting a true picture even if they want to. As long as KMM wins in Senshado by hook-or-crook, their backers can use that as evidence they are still All Right.

But now we have these two losses. No matter how you write it, they had been winning and now they've lost two years straight. Last year I suspect they blew up Miho's rescue for all was it worth to muddy the waters but this year there's not even that excuse.

Will even bureaucrats investigate more closely? Will the critics' voices be paid more heed? I suspect yes. At the very least, the balance of power would shift.

An armored department that doesn't produce the goods is an obvious waste of money. And that's a big, obvious risk factor for KMM that as far as we know is not shared by others. Maybe it has redeeming strengths elsewhere? Maybe another school has an even bigger weakness? I don't know. All I know is that is KMM has this big weakness.
=
Well, I could be wrong. Maybe there really is enough money to keep everyone running. I won't mind that outcome.

Still, so we can get on to the next phase rather than going back and forth unproductively, allow me to ask "It is clear that many of you think that no school should (or have to) be closed. I propose we agree to disagree on this issue.

However, given that one of the schools will have to replace Oarai on the chopping block, based on the horribly limited amount of information we have, what school do you think it will be?"

MarkS00N · 2013-03-30, 06:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by arkhangelsk

You are probably right that the bureaucrats usually don't look that closely.

However, let's get back to the little revelation they apparently have an "Armored Department" (kikouka) instead of just a Tankery elective. Which means that one of their specialties is professional tankers, which are presumably supplied to the SDF and Senshado organizations upon graduation. Their Sensha-do team should be a cut better than all the others just as we expect a Professional team to be significantly better than an amateur one.

Their loss this year (definitely) and last year (almost certainly, considering they still apparently had the superior fit), is a symptom of very poor training in their tankers, and thus, their alumni. Since these didn't just happen all of a sudden, but is a multi-year process, it can be inferred (unless the SDF and Senshado organizations have no standards at all) that complaints about the declining alumni quality have been swimming around for at least several years.

However, from what little we can see in the show Nishizumi students have infiltrated in substantial strength in the SDF (Chouno Ami being one) and presumably Senshado organizations. That would create a base of support that can act as "authorities" to muddle the waters and prevent the bureaucrats (who probably don't know a PzI from a Maus) from getting a true picture even if they want to. As long as KMM wins in Senshado by hook-or-crook, their backers can use that as evidence they are still All Right.

But now we have these two losses. No matter how you write it, they had been winning and now they've lost two years straight. Last year I suspect they blew up Miho's rescue for all was it worth to muddy the waters but this year there's not even that excuse.

Will even bureaucrats investigate more closely? Will the critics' voices be paid more heed? I suspect yes. At the very least, the balance of power would shift.

An armored department that doesn't produce the goods is an obvious waste of money. And that's a big, obvious risk factor for KMM that as far as we know is not shared by others. Maybe it has redeeming strengths elsewhere? Maybe another school has an even bigger weakness? I don't know. All I know is that is KMM has this big weakness.
=
Well, I could be wrong. Maybe there really is enough money to keep everyone running. I won't mind that outcome.

Still, so we can get on to the next phase rather than going back and forth unproductively, allow me to ask "It is clear that many of you think that no school should (or have to) be closed. I propose we agree to disagree on this issue.

However, given that one of the schools will have to replace Oarai on the chopping block, based on the horribly limited amount of information we have, what school do you think it will be?"

I will put my bet on Yogurt or the school that uses Japanese tanks...
It doesn't make sense that a champion school striped down for only two loses, no matter how silly it might seems...
Afterall, the ration of winning vs losing is pretty much weight on winning rate, especially when these defeats are in finals, unlike Saunder for example who lost in preliminary...

Cutting budget doesn't constitute actual lack of cash...
Oarai's cutting most certainly comes from pure consideration: What is Oarai benefit?
With diminishing student, no particular specialty, Oarai is waste of budget...

Also, remember that there are 100.000 people in KMM...
There are a lot more people to move and if KMM shut down there are a lot more jobless people compare to Oarai's 30.000 people...
Is it really beneficial to close KMM?

2013-03-30, 00:48	Link #5841
Ithekro Gamilas Falls Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Republic of California Age: 46	I wonder if there are more than just 16 city ships for Japanese schools? We only know of 16 that participated in this tournament. Ooarai didn't participate for about 20 years. Plus if the tournament structure has been the same, that means there was another school that participaed instead of Ooarai (16 schools in eight brackets up to the Finals). That doesn't mean the other school closed down. it is possible some other school decided to end their tank program. Or that out of all the schools they have a lottery and some aren't picked that year. Ooarai's entry was kind of random to begin with. (The student council talking to the administrator flashback in episode 9 sort of makes their description to the student body of what the education department's desire for more sensha-do programs in episode 1 sort of suspect). __________________

2013-03-30, 00:53	Link #5842
Random Wanderer Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2007	While they are cities, the series appears to be using "school" logic for them. Think about it. Who was the organization that was spoken to when the decision was made for the school to be shut down? Not a mayor. Not any sort of town leadership. It was brought to the Student Council. And the Student Council was able to decide on a course of action that would determine the future for the entire ship, without having to consult with anyone. They had the authority to decide for everyone on the ship. Because the ship is their school, and they are its Student Council. The series treats these ships with school dynamics. Even large portions of their crew are apparently made up of students. Any insistence that it logically shouldn't be that way is overriden by the simple fact that it IS that way, like it or not. __________________

2013-03-30, 01:01	Link #5843
Ithekro Gamilas Falls Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Republic of California Age: 46	Does the school do lessons in three 8 hour watches so the girls that run the ship can get there lessons and yet still run the ship in standard naval fashion? __________________

2013-03-30, 01:51	Link #5850
Ithekro Gamilas Falls Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Republic of California Age: 46	Plus they could always move those people to the actual town of Ooarai. Or go to where the students go. One might note that the familes of some of the students were not on the city ship. Many live in the actual town in the mainland. Yukari's was on the ship, but Hana and Mako's were not. (Miho's was not either but she's a transfer student). No clue about Shiori' or any of the other girls. __________________

2013-03-30, 02:22	Link #5854
Wild Goose Truth Martyr Author Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Doing Anzu's paperwork. Age: 38	So basically the federal Japanese government bullies the small towns into getting its way? __________________ One must forgive one's enemies, but not before they are hanged.Heinrich Heine. *I believe in miracles.* Order of Freelance Mages (Goose's Nanoha OC Project)

2013-03-30, 01:29	Link #5847
Gravitas Free Zone Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2012	This kinda takes Absurdly Powerful Student Council to new heights, though. (Shouldn't the council be a bit larger also?)

2013-03-30, 01:49	Link #5849
arkhangelsk Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2007	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Municip...tions_in_Japan Please tell me that this voluntary process bears any resemblance to what was about to befall Oarai. Sure, because it may have been de jure classified as a School rather than a City, MEXT might have gained the legal power to force compliance, but since it is de facto a city, the backlash won't be smaller for it.

2013-03-30, 02:00	Link #5852
arkhangelsk Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2007	Did the first sentence on consensus completely blow past you? That's not a trivial difference, you know? No matter how you play it, we saw real families on that ship, and MEXT's actions are equivalent to 強制疎開 (forced evacuation) by government fiat. I'm sure that they followed the law, but it'll be very hard to believe they really think they can do this without a very strong backlash.

2013-03-30, 02:05	Link #5853
Sumeragi Banned Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Dai Korai Teikoku	Because, my dear arkhangelsk, "consensus" isn't always the nice consensus you think it to be, especially in Japanese politics. "Encouragement" goes a long way towards compulsory "consensus".

2013-03-30, 02:24	Link #5855
Sumeragi Banned Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Dai Korai Teikoku	Not just the federal government, the prefectures also have a hand. After all, most of the money subsidizing those small towns come from the prefectures, so there is also an interest for the prefectures to see consolidation.

2013-03-30, 02:25	Link #5856
arkhangelsk Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2007	Oh, that's always true everywhere, and voluntariness is generally incomplete, but we are not even seeing the facade of "consensus" this time, are we? As you yourself point out, we barely even see notification - and they definitely so no sign of trying pressure tactics first. I really don't get this. Everyone seems very eager to insist that Oarai wasn't just an easier (OK, this is undeniable or they'd have picked someone else to start with) victim, but an easy one. That Oarai didn't just happen to have 6 points on its "Closability" Matrix and the next worst had 5.8 so Oarai got nicked. Instead, everyone wants our protagonist school to have a Closability of 10 while everyone else has 1 or 2. And there seems at least as little evidence to support this version, so I wonder why it seems so desirable.

2013-03-30, 02:27	Link #5857
Sumeragi Banned Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Dai Korai Teikoku	Drama. Is there any other reason for pulling out such a sudden move without public notification, especially in fiction?