The Second Battle of Orb

[coba]

Originally Posted by Paladinoras

You are not getting my point here. The Orb defense will be breached, yes, Djibril will be caught faster, yes. So, if Djibril had been caught and potentially killed, what remaining reason does Dullindal have of finishing off Orb? He will lose credibility as remember, his policy was AGGRESIVE SELF-DEFENCE. A load of bull, but they cannot betray that principle. And if they do kill Cagalli, the ZAFT forces will be in for a rough fight. A VERY ROUGH FIGHT!!!.

First of all, even without the interference of SF, the time needed for ZAFT to find out thelocation of Djibril is the same. Remember, ZAFT has already tried to locate Djibril way before SF gets involved in the battle and they still can't find them. The situation will be the same in the sense that htye can locate Djibril when he launch in the shuttle. There is no proof to say otherwise since Djibril launch from Seiran's secret base which the ZAFT troop does not know.

Howeve, if Lacus' MSes (SF, Dom) are not around, what happen is that first Cagalli is killed by Destiny and then Destiny will go rampage on the rest of the Orb's MS. Similarly, the other ZAFT MS who proceed to the inner half of the island will also cause more destruction (the DOMs trio are the one who destroy most of the ZAFT MSes on the island). In other word, if the help hasn't arrived on time, the Orb will likely losses their leader as well as suffer higher military casualities. And you all know that to kill the dragon, it is better to cut the head first. If Orb really did suffer that casualties, it will create a significant chaos since they won't have any leader which makes it easier for Dullindal to occupy the Orb.

No, just because ZAFT consist mainly of Coordinators does not mean that they produce better MS. Proof: They did not make the Gundams first, ne?

There is a flaw in your argument. Zaft is the first side who manufacture the MS way before Orb can. Second, those Gundams are not even complete. The OS of the Gundam is not even completed if not because of Kira. In fact, you have to remember that the one who create a Gundam is Morgenrete (sp?) who is a company in Orb with the back up of Atlantic Federation (Blue Cosmos).

Really, and how would you know Orb has a limited amount of manpower? Not once in the anime is it shown that they lack manpower to put up a decent fight. In fact, PLANT's population is not exactly mind-blowing. The original prediction of the First Bloody Valentine War was that the EA would wipe out the ZAFT forces without breaking a sweat, due to their heavy advantage in manpower. But that was not the case. . . In fact, I think that comparatively speaking, PLANT has about the same population as any Earth country .. . Based on my calculations, from the Gundam Official website, the surface area of PLANT should be around 2400 km squared. Not that big really. .. .

Then please proof it that the amount of Orb's MSes can rival the amount of ZAFT Mses during the battle. If you don't believe me, please re-watch the anime again and you can see how many ZAFT's MS versus Orb's MS. Also I don't know where you get the 2400 km sq, but I think it is more than that based on the description of Plant I got from the Gundam official website. I believe PLANT is made up of 120 disks colony that is connected by 30 km hub.

The Carpentaria base has been exhausted. You don't expect ZAFT to keep cranking out new suits, rite? And oh yeah, I forgot one thing. GOUFs WERE RARELY USED IN THE SECOND BATTLE OF ORB!!! They were specifically used for homeland defense, i.e, PLANT!

Please go to Random curiosity and GSD ep 40 and you can see how many Gouf present. Like I said before, it is easy to manufacture the MS, but it is hard to train a pilot. One of the advantage of ZAFT is defintely the number of pilots they have compare to Orb.

No, a lot of their main forces had been destroyed, but the EA is by no means a spent force. They still had millions, yes, MILLIONS of soldiers left. And they could be rebels, I don't think that the Blue Cosmos has been totally wiped out.

After the HB battle, the EA force on the earth officially surrenders to ZAFT though. That's the reason why Lacus says that Dullindal will get to Orb next since the EA are no longer against him on earth

Just because they did not show it, does not mean THEY don't HAVE it.

Unfortunately, there is no other proof to say that Orb has submarines.

Lolz, US never invaded mainland Japan. Gotta brush up on your history eh? They dropped the A-Bombs, so they surrendered. And one difference here, during World War 2, Japan was practically fighting alone. Germany had been defeated and the US could literally onto Japan. ZAFT, however, still had to take care of the EA remnants. May not be many left, but there are still thousands of troops left.

What I meant is the IwoJima campaign. The Japanese troops fought galantly against the Americans to protect the soil. However, they could only prolong the battle and still lost the battle in the end. Also, US hadn't even sent their forces from Europe to attack Japan when the Japanese surrender ( I watched the Band of Brother and how some of thesoldiers are expected to be sent to the Pacific after they defeat the NAzi, but they already heard that the Pacific war is already over by then). So they don't need to even concentrate all of their forces to defeat Japan.

[PzIVf3]

Zaft should have success complete overwhelmed all over the perimeter in the first phase even Orb defenders could not deployed all their forces at the same time while they standing by.

[RAVNEN]

Originally Posted by PzIVf3

Zaft should have success complete overwhelmed all over the perimeter in the first phase even Orb defenders could not deployed all their forces at the same time while they standing by.

I agree,after all ZAFT probably the luckiest side in CE. They the first to develop MS,got all the coolest & strongest military asset & get to destroy Earth military big time in Seed.EA only manage to do a number of mass murder act which is futile effort.ZAFT own the Seed universe.

[Paladinoras]

Originally Posted by coba

First of all, even without the interference of SF, the time needed for ZAFT to find out thelocation of Djibril is the same. Remember, ZAFT has already tried to locate Djibril way before SF gets involved in the battle and they still can't find them. The situation will be the same in the sense that htye can locate Djibril when he launch in the shuttle. There is no proof to say otherwise since Djibril launch from Seiran's secret base which the ZAFT troop does not know.

No, the time would be faster, cause there would be no two god MSes blocking their path and full-bursting at their army, leaving more people to focus on finding Djibril. In fact, Djibril would escape later, leaving ZAFT more time to find him. Why? Well, he won't have Orb troops chasing him, now would he? He would delay his departure as he would stay "safe" longer. Sure, more ORB troops will die, but he will also certainly die faster.

Originally Posted by coba

Howeve, if Lacus' MSes (SF, Dom) are not around, what happen is that first Cagalli is killed by Destiny and then Destiny will go rampage on the rest of the Orb's MS. Similarly, the other ZAFT MS who proceed to the inner half of the island will also cause more destruction (the DOMs trio are the one who destroy most of the ZAFT MSes on the island). In other word, if the help hasn't arrived on time, the Orb will likely losses their leader as well as suffer higher military casualities. And you all know that to kill the dragon, it is better to cut the head first. If Orb really did suffer that casualties, it will create a significant chaos since they won't have any leader which makes it easier for Dullindal to occupy the Orb.

By the time Cagalli fought Destiny, she had already restructured the defense. If she dies, well, the only thing that the ORB forces will do is fight harder. True, sometimes if the head is killed, the rest of the army will be in chaos, but the ORB forces still had the figure of Kisaka and other military leaders to lead them. Plus, they will fight even harder now. . . And the DOM trio did not do much really, they destroyed a couple of MSes, yeah, but they were not THAT important to save them.

Originally Posted by coba

There is a flaw in your argument. Zaft is the first side who manufacture the MS way before Orb can. Second, those Gundams are not even complete. The OS of the Gundam is not even completed if not because of Kira. In fact, you have to remember that the one who create a Gundam is Morgenrete (sp?) who is a company in Orb with the back up of Atlantic Federation (Blue Cosmos).

So? Just because they were the first to build it, does not mean that their MS is inherently better. Hell, the Gundams were an original design and only their OS was not complete. Had they been given more time, they would've made it Natural-capable. It's only that the ZAFT had stolen it. And sides, take for example, the Ford. They produced the first car, but hell, they sure as hell ain't making the best cars in the world now. . .

Originally Posted by coba

Then please proof it that the amount of Orb's MSes can rival the amount of ZAFT Mses during the battle. If you don't believe me, please re-watch the anime again and you can see how many ZAFT's MS versus Orb's MS. Also I don't know where you get the 2400 km sq, but I think it is more than that based on the description of Plant I got from the Gundam official website. I believe PLANT is made up of 120 disks colony that is connected by 30 km hub.

Put it that way, I can't. The opposite goes the same for you. And rewatching GSD is not something I wanna do anytime soon. And sides, as far as I can remember, only one side of the battle was shown. And it was shown that there were still MSes spread throughout the island, helping people evacuate.

How do I get those figures?

These hourglass-style structures consist of two disc-shaped living areas, each ten kilometers in diameter,


And there are roughly 120 colonies, so, 20 x 120 = 2400 km

Not that big.

IN fact, if ORB is really modelled after New Zealand-esque islands, it would be well over 200 000 km large.

Originally Posted by coba

Please go to Random curiosity and GSD ep 40 and you can see how many Gouf present. Like I said before, it is easy to manufacture the MS, but it is hard to train a pilot. One of the advantage of ZAFT is defintely the number of pilots they have compare to Orb.

Again, how would you know the number of ZAFT pilots is more compared to ORB? The ORB forces had enough forces in the First Bloody Valentine War to hold back the Earth forces, who had the Calamity, Forbidden, and Raider Gundams. And a fresh supply of Strike Daggers. Orb had a few M1 Astrays and Freedom and Justice and Buster.

Originally Posted by coba

After the HB battle, the EA force on the earth officially surrenders to ZAFT though. That's the reason why Lacus says that Dullindal will get to Orb next since the EA are no longer against him on earth

EA, not Blue Cosmos. There were still a lot of rebelling members of Blue Cosmos who are radical enough to keep fighting.

Originally Posted by coba

Unfortunately, there is no other proof to say that Orb has submarines.

And there are no other proof that say that ORB has NO submarines either. .

Originally Posted by coba

What I meant is the IwoJima campaign. The Japanese troops fought galantly against the Americans to protect the soil. However, they could only prolong the battle and still lost the battle in the end. Also, US hadn't even sent their forces from Europe to attack Japan when the Japanese surrender ( I watched the Band of Brother and how some of thesoldiers are expected to be sent to the Pacific after they defeat the NAzi, but they already heard that the Pacific war is already over by then). So they don't need to even concentrate all of their forces to defeat Japan.

Oh, ok, FYI, those were not mainland Japan. Mainland Japan is considered to be the four main islands that make up Japan, the Shikoku, Honshu, Kyushu, and Hokkaido islands. And they have never been entered by a foreign power before World War 2. And even then, the Americans did not colonize them, they just set up a government there.

Lol, sorry if I sound weird. Love Japan .. .

[coba]

Originally Posted by Paladinoras

No, the time would be faster, cause there would be no two god MSes blocking their path and full-bursting at their army, leaving more people to focus on finding Djibril. In fact, Djibril would escape later, leaving ZAFT more time to find him. Why? Well, he won't have Orb troops chasing him, now would he? He would delay his departure as he would stay "safe" longer. Sure, more ORB troops will die, but he will also certainly die faster.

If you watch the anime carefully, you realize that the ZAFT already sent their advanced troops to look for Djibril way before the Lacus' Mses. In fact, they have already arrived in some of the government buildings (like Serian's house) way before the battle is even began. The ZAFT froces could not find Djibril because first, Orb soldiers (the traitor ones) moved him secretly to the Serian's secret base (it seems every noble family in Orb like Shahaku or Seiran has their own secret base) that nobody else know about. When the ZAFT advanced their forces, Djibril already arrived in the secret hideout of the Seiran.

For illustration, the estimate timeline of the Battle is looks similar like this:

0:00 Zaft lauchs their advanced MS consists of Babii to look for Djibril in the mainland

0:03 Djibril is already in the car heading toward the secret base when he saw the Babii

0:10 The ZAFT force land in the beach

0:12 Djibril already arrived at Seiran's base. Nobody in Orb's command know where he is (Remember, Cagalli also send Orb's soldier to look for him and they could'nt locate him due to the traitors.

0:15 Destiny joins the fight. Cagalli arrives with Akatsuki

0:17 SF arrives

As you can see, there is no indication whatsoever that the involvement of SF will speed up the time necessary to locate Djibril (the Orb soldiers who are familiar with their own backyard could not even locate Djibril).

By the time Cagalli fought Destiny, she had already restructured the defense. If she dies, well, the only thing that the ORB forces will do is fight harder. True, sometimes if the head is killed, the rest of the army will be in chaos, but the ORB forces still had the figure of Kisaka and other military leaders to lead them. Plus, they will fight even harder now. . . And the DOM trio did not do much really, they destroyed a couple of MSes, yeah, but they were not THAT important to save them.

Kisaka is not a leader, in fact his status is only a Colonel and will be outrank by other (like the one who hit Yuuna in the first place). If Orb has another leader beside Cagalli, why no one stepped up before Cagalli arrives ? The problem is that aside from Cagalli, the rest of the Orb parlement are pro-Seiran and coward. THat's the reason in the first place why nobody set up the defense.

If you watch carefully, Dom's trio are the one who are responsible to destroy any ZAFT MSes that has landed in the shore; they are practically the last defense of Orb against MP MS. They are also pretty effective actually: just think about it, in the average of less than 1 minutes, they manage to destroy 5 MSes.

So? Just because they were the first to build it, does not mean that their MS is inherently better. Hell, the Gundams were an original design and only their OS was not complete. Had they been given more time, they would've made it Natural-capable. It's only that the ZAFT had stolen it. And sides, take for example, the Ford. They produced the first car, but hell, they sure as hell ain't making the best cars in the world now. . .

It just show that thier technology is still way better than the other nation. Remener, ZAFT also manage to create NJ who BTW no one on earth can create the Canceller. Your analogy with the car can also be applied to the Gundam case. And regarding the software, I do believe Erica admit that they won't be able to finish the OS if not because of Kira in GS.


Put it that way, I can't. The opposite goes the same for you. And rewatching GSD is not something I wanna do anytime soon. And sides, as far as I can remember, only one side of the battle was shown. And it was shown that there were still MSes spread throughout the island, helping people evacuate.

How do I get those figures?

These hourglass-style structures consist of two disc-shaped living areas, each ten kilometers in diameter,

And there are roughly 120 colonies, so, 20 x 120 = 2400 km

Not that big.

IN fact, if ORB is really modelled after New Zealand-esque islands, it would be well over 200 000 km large.

You probably have to square the diameter don't you ? Also, the area is not a good representation of the populatio. For example, Canada has huge area but less people compared to India.

Again, how would you know the number of ZAFT pilots is more compared to ORB? The ORB forces had enough forces in the First Bloody Valentine War to hold back the Earth forces, who had the Calamity, Forbidden, and Raider Gundams. And a fresh supply of Strike Daggers. Orb had a few M1 Astrays and Freedom and Justice and Buster.

You do know that they are losing right. That's the reason Cagalli's father decide to commit suicide.

EA, not Blue Cosmos. There were still a lot of rebelling members of Blue Cosmos who are radical enough to keep fighting.

Eee you do know that the BC membership consists of rich guy ordering around right. And most of them are arrested after the HB's battle. In fact, if you want to take about rebellion, ZAFT will probably face more difficulties against the South Americans or Desert rebellions.

And there are no other proof that say that ORB has NO submarines either. .

Then please give me a proof that you ever saw the Orb's submarine either in anime or manga. If you want to play an if game, I can also claim that ZAFT has another super carrier during the Orb's invasion.

[PzIVf3]

[QUOTE=Paladinoras;2021287]

By the time Cagalli fought Destiny, she had already restructured the defense. If she dies, well, the only thing that the ORB forces will do is fight harder. True, sometimes if the head is killed, the rest of the army will be in chaos, but the ORB forces still had the figure of Kisaka and other military leaders to lead them. Plus, they will fight even harder now. . . And the DOM trio did not do much really, they destroyed a couple of MSes, yeah, but they were not THAT important to save them.

Its impossible to set up the defense quickly while there all over the perimeter even there small units of survivor from Cagalli is not strong enough to counterattack.

Again, how would you know the number of ZAFT pilots is more compared to ORB? The ORB forces had enough forces in the First Bloody Valentine War to hold back the Earth forces, who had the Calamity, Forbidden, and Raider Gundams. And a fresh supply of Strike Daggers. Orb had a few M1 Astrays and Freedom and Justice and Buster.

Its impossible to mass produce millions of Astray in a island like Hawaii. Orb is not a major M.S. industrial state.

And there are no other proof that say that ORB has NO submarines either. .

Submarine is a offensive weapon its primary mission to seek & destroy not for defense. Orb can't built a offensive weapon while there are Neutral even there are part of EA they have no time to manufacture submarine.

[Paladinoras]

Originally Posted by coba

If you watch the anime carefully, you realize that the ZAFT already sent their advanced troops to look for Djibril way before the Lacus' Mses. In fact, they have already arrived in some of the government buildings (like Serian's house) way before the battle is even began. The ZAFT froces could not find Djibril because first, Orb soldiers (the traitor ones) moved him secretly to the Serian's secret base (it seems every noble family in Orb like Shahaku or Seiran has their own secret base) that nobody else know about. When the ZAFT advanced their forces, Djibril already arrived in the secret hideout of the Seiran.

For illustration, the estimate timeline of the Battle is looks similar like this:

0:00 Zaft lauchs their advanced MS consists of Babii to look for Djibril in the mainland

0:03 Djibril is already in the car heading toward the secret base when he saw the Babii

0:10 The ZAFT force land in the beach

0:12 Djibril already arrived at Seiran's base. Nobody in Orb's command know where he is (Remember, Cagalli also send Orb's soldier to look for him and they could'nt locate him due to the traitors.

0:15 Destiny joins the fight. Cagalli arrives with Akatsuki

0:17 SF arrives

As you can see, there is no indication whatsoever that the involvement of SF will speed up the time necessary to locate Djibril (the Orb soldiers who are familiar with their own backyard could not even locate Djibril).

Yes. Then Djibril escapes. And ZAFT forces could only devote Luna and a few grunts to pursue him. And as wonderful as Luna is, she can't aim for s***.
Had SF and IJ not been there, more people could pursue him, i.e, Shinn. And with Destiny, Djibril could be killed easily.

Originally Posted by coba

Kisaka is not a leader, in fact his status is only a Colonel and will be outrank by other (like the one who hit Yuuna in the first place). If Orb has another leader beside Cagalli, why no one stepped up before Cagalli arrives ? The problem is that aside from Cagalli, the rest of the Orb parlement are pro-Seiran and coward. THat's the reason in the first place why nobody set up the defense.

No, the reason was that they felt that they had a mindless sense of loyalty to whoever the leader of ORB is. No matter how much they hate the person leading them, he/she is still the leader of ORB and to them, they are trying their best to protect ORB. And no one stepped up before Cagalli showed up because although Yuuna is a complete idiot, he is still the head of the country and the ORB officers are too honorable to beat him up and take his power. This is like, Japan, really. Todaka, for example, is far from a coward and is not pro-Seiran. But he would charge the Takemikazuchi at the ZAFT forces. For what?

Originally Posted by coba

If you watch carefully, Dom's trio are the one who are responsible to destroy any ZAFT MSes that has landed in the shore; they are practically the last defense of Orb against MP MS. They are also pretty effective actually: just think about it, in the average of less than 1 minutes, they manage to destroy 5 MSes.

Really now, grunt suits are not hard to kill. Even by another grunt suit. The grunt suits the DOMs destroyed are also not the GOUFs. They only destroyed the crappy and outdated GINNs, ZAKUs, and GOOhns. The ORB army would really would not have a problem dealing with them, although with a loss of a few men.

Originally Posted by coba

It just show that thier technology is still way better than the other nation. Remener, ZAFT also manage to create NJ who BTW no one on earth can create the Canceller. Your analogy with the car can also be applied to the Gundam case. And regarding the software, I do believe Erica admit that they won't be able to finish the OS if not because of Kira in GS.

No, no. Their technology is better, but that does not necessarily mean that they always crank out the best MP MS. Even the Freedom and Justice took inspiration from the GAT-X series, who was made by. .. not ZAFT. Neutron Jammers are completely different from mobile suits... Just because I make good handphones does not mean I make good cars. . .

And about the OS, Kira just helped to improve the M1 Astray's OS, and made it more suitable for Naturals. The OS was by no means unusable by Naturals at the time. It was just harder for them.

Originally Posted by coba

Put it that way, I can't. The opposite goes the same for you. And rewatching GSD is not something I wanna do anytime soon. And sides, as far as I can remember, only one side of the battle was shown. And it was shown that there were still MSes spread throughout the island, helping people evacuate.

How do I get those figures?

These hourglass-style structures consist of two disc-shaped living areas, each ten kilometers in diameter,




You probably have to square the diameter don't you ? Also, the area is not a good representation of the populatio. For example, Canada has huge area but less people compared to India.

Fine, fine, if you wanna be picky.

Area of one living space:
=3.142 x 5 x 5
=78.55 km squared

Living space in one colony
=78.55 x 2
=157.1 km squared

Total area of PLANT
= 157.1 x 120
= 18852 km squared.

And. . . it is still not that big.

And PLANT would not have that many people. Junius Seven had around 243 000 people. So in 120 colonies, the total population would be around :

=120 x 243 000 = 29 million people

And may I remind you that a lot of them are civilians and have fought one Bloody Valentine War, previously.

And even Hawaii is nearly 28 000 km squared in area.

So, yeah, ZAFT is pretty small... .

Originally Posted by coba

You do know that they are losing right. That's the reason Cagalli's father decide to commit suicide.

Actually, they still had a chance, had Uzumi not told the Archangel and the Kusanagi to leave ORB and head to space. The Freedom, Justice, and Buster could have taken on the ORB forces while ORB cranked out more M1's. Although eventually, they would have lost. But the Earth forces at the time could crank out Strike Daggers like crazy. ZAFT can't do the same thing.

Originally Posted by coba

Eee you do know that the BC membership consists of rich guy ordering around right. And most of them are arrested after the HB's battle. In fact, if you want to take about rebellion, ZAFT will probably face more difficulties against the South Americans or Desert rebellions.

No, that was Logos. And just because they were captured does not mean that extremist soldiers influenced by their ideals will not fight with Coordinators.

Originally Posted by coba

Then please give me a proof that you ever saw the Orb's submarine either in anime or manga. If you want to play an if game, I can also claim that ZAFT has another super carrier during the Orb's invasion.

Yes, They had one. A Vosgulov class which could handle 4 mobile suits. ZAFT, I mean. Orb had the Aegis class battleship. And the Archangel . .

[coba]

Originally Posted by Paladinoras

Yes. Then Djibril escapes. And ZAFT forces could only devote Luna and a few grunts to pursue him. And as wonderful as Luna is, she can't aim for s***.
Had SF and IJ not been there, more people could pursue him, i.e, Shinn. And with Destiny, Djibril could be killed easily.

Yeah s oyou do agree that the SF/IJ's involvement doesn't really change the timeline. The only thing that they changes is the fact that the ZAFT would probably shoot down Djibril's shuttle if they weren't there

And no one stepped up before Cagalli showed up because although Yuuna is a complete idiot, he is still the head of the country and the ORB officers are too honorable to beat him up and take his power. This is like, Japan, really. Todaka, for example, is far from a coward and is not pro-Seiran. But he would charge the Takemikazuchi at the ZAFT forces. For what?

Actually, the rest of thep arlement is under Seirans and you know they basically are a bunch of coward who can't lead the country. Most of Orb's soldiers are loyal to the Orb (like what Todoka said that they fight for Orb, not Yuuna), but they need a leader. The only one who can serve as a good leader is only Cagalli (and probably Sahaku). If she is dead, the Orb's defense will once again will becoem disarray.

Really now, grunt suits are not hard to kill. Even by another grunt suit. The grunt suits the DOMs destroyed are also not the GOUFs. They only destroyed the crappy and outdated GINNs, ZAKUs, and GOOhns. The ORB army would really would not have a problem dealing with them, although with a loss of a few men.

The Orb's side are already overrun by the ZAFT grunt suits. That's the reason why you got so many ZAFT grunts (especially when you consider that the amphibian Goohns can be far away from the beach) on the inside of the island. They already breach the beach head which can only happen because ZAFT's MS is pushed back.

No, no. Their technology is better, but that does not necessarily mean that they always crank out the best MP MS. Even the Freedom and Justice took inspiration from the GAT-X series, who was made by. .. not ZAFT. Neutron Jammers are completely different from mobile suits... Just because I make good handphones does not mean I make good cars. . .

Eee. first of all, the Gouf is definitely an upgrade version of Zaku. Murasame can only fight equally with Zaku. For analogy, Zaku & Murasame can be thought as 4th generation jet fighter while the Gouf is a 4.5th generation fighter. It was clearly written in the manual kit that the Gouf is manufactured to give a superiority to ZAFT.

Also, you have to remember that the side create something first does not mean that they will always have more advanced technology/build better product. The Murasame is created to counter ZAKU. However, the Gouf is created to surpass the Zaku (well, they are created like 1-2 years after the ZAKU). Unfortunately, the Orb hasn't had anytime to create a better MP MS.

And about the OS, Kira just helped to improve the M1 Astray's OS, and made it more suitable for Naturals. The OS was by no means unusable by Naturals at the time. It was just harder for them.

Still, those Gundam is not a complete product.

Fine, fine, if you wanna be picky.

Area of one living space:
=3.142 x 5 x 5
=78.55 km squared

Living space in one colony
=78.55 x 2
=157.1 km squared

Total area of PLANT
= 157.1 x 120
= 18852 km squared.

And. . . it is still not that big.

And PLANT would not have that many people. Junius Seven had around 243 000 people. So in 120 colonies, the total population would be around :

=120 x 243 000 = 29 million people

I am not really so sure about the PLANT configuration, but I thought Junius seven is not a main city (I believe it is an agrucltural colony). And may I remind you that a lot of them are civilians and have fought one Bloody Valentine War, previously.

And even Hawaii is nearly 28 000 km squared in area.

So, yeah, ZAFT is pretty small... .

But not all islands in Hawaii are packed with people

Actually, they still had a chance, had Uzumi not told the Archangel and the Kusanagi to leave ORB and head to space. The Freedom, Justice, and Buster could have taken on the ORB forces while ORB cranked out more M1's. Although eventually, they would have lost. But the Earth forces at the time could crank out Strike Daggers like crazy. ZAFT can't do the same thing.

Actually, they don't have any chance at all. The EA MSes already reach the vicinity of Morgenrete building which is in the inside of the island. The Orb's defenders in the sea and beach are already overrun. That's the reason why they hurry up to lauch the Kusanagi.

No, that was Logos. And just because they were captured does not mean that extremist soldiers influenced by their ideals will not fight with Coordinators.

This is kinda confusing but most of the BC members are Logos (but not vice versa). The ones in the HB are the Blue Cosmos mebers who hate the coordinators. They are the one who are behing the creation of the GAT, Phantom Pain, Requiem, etc.

[PzIVf3]

Really now, grunt suits are not hard to kill. Even by another grunt suit. The grunt suits the DOMs destroyed are also not the GOUFs. They only destroyed the crappy and outdated GINNs, ZAKUs, and GOOhns. The ORB army would really would not have a problem dealing with them, although with a loss of a few men.

You underestimated the size of the mass superiority even Orb got the best quality M.S. but not quantity. Orb can't simply put the defense much longer that they don't enough replacement of spareparts and pilots. Even there production is not fast to complete a single Astray and put to combat.

No, no. Their technology is better, but that does not necessarily mean that they always crank out the best MP MS. Even the Freedom and Justice took inspiration from the GAT-X series, who was made by. .. not ZAFT. Neutron Jammers are completely different from mobile suits... Just because I make good handphones does not mean I make good cars. . .

And about the OS, Kira just helped to improve the M1 Astray's OS, and made it more suitable for Naturals. The OS was by no means unusable by Naturals at the time. It was just harder for them.

Heine Westenfluss piloted the Gouf and performs well battling against the Astrays with his major hard battle experience.

Yes, They had one. A Vosgulov class which could handle 4 mobile suits. ZAFT, I mean. Orb had the Aegis class battleship. And the Archangel .

And the Archangel is not an officially named as a submarine class and not part of the Orb Navy. They just converted orthodox secrets.

[RAVNEN]

Murasame is better than Zaku in term of agility & speed.While Zaku excel in versatilabilty & firepower thanks to it unique Wizard packs.See how 3 Murasame with battle experience can take down Chaos gundam.So Murasame strength lies in number.Zaku can act with small force,Luna & Rey Zaku give some trouble to EA druggies & Orb forces with their combination of versatilabilty & firepower.

Gouf is stronger & have advanced weaponry,so it's better than Zaku & Murasame.The orange one that Heine pilot is the exprimental one,then Zaft mass produced Gouf to enhanced their military asset. So it come to pilot ability or attribute to make a MS stronger.

I think ORB does'nt have submarine,they only have battleship.Considering their country is sorrounded by water,it make sense they have lot of battleship.In GS I see they deploy many battleship while in GSD they also deploy some battleship.With Orb military base is target by Zaft,they need battleship because it can be mobilize faster & can be mount more weaponry than submarine.

This thread has become two way war between two Seed Fanatic,which I think is cool. Maybe after this I only listen to their argument,which is fun & enlighten indeed.

[Paladinoras]

Originally Posted by coba

Yeah s oyou do agree that the SF/IJ's involvement doesn't really change the timeline. The only thing that they changes is the fact that the ZAFT would probably shoot down Djibril's shuttle if they weren't there

I never disagreed that SF and Ij's involvement change the timeline. I say that the battle will be over quicker. Which is true . . .

Originally Posted by coba

Actually, the rest of thep arlement is under Seirans and you know they basically are a bunch of coward who can't lead the country. Most of Orb's soldiers are loyal to the Orb (like what Todoka said that they fight for Orb, not Yuuna), but they need a leader. The only one who can serve as a good leader is only Cagalli (and probably Sahaku). If she is dead, the Orb's defense will once again will becoem disarray.

And Parlement =/= military.

And if Orb's soldiers are fighting for Orb, then why the hell would they be in chaos if Cagalli dies? The military of Orb is already very advanced and structured. They are not a group of thugs that will go crazy when their leader dies. The military power of Orb has always been and will always be. . great. They are not as weak as to go crazy if Cagali dies. In fact, they will fight harder. Like hell.

Originally Posted by coba

The Orb's side are already overrun by the ZAFT grunt suits. That's the reason why you got so many ZAFT grunts (especially when you consider that the amphibian Goohns can be far away from the beach) on the inside of the island. They already breach the beach head which can only happen because ZAFT's MS is pushed back.

Just because the ZAFT army has overrun the beachhead, does not mean that they will take ORB easily. Especially if Cagalli dies, they will fight till the end for Orb.

Originally Posted by coba

Eee. first of all, the Gouf is definitely an upgrade version of Zaku. Murasame can only fight equally with Zaku. For analogy, Zaku & Murasame can be thought as 4th generation jet fighter while the Gouf is a 4.5th generation fighter. It was clearly written in the manual kit that the Gouf is manufactured to give a superiority to ZAFT.

Okkkayyy. Fine, lemme pull something out from my Seed Astray MS list. At the Second Battle of Orb, other than the Murasames, ORB forces also have the MVF-M12A Ootsukigata, which has the MULTI-LOCK ON SYSTEM. Makes cleaning ZAFT MSes a little bit easier. They also have the the M1A Astray, which has a sniper rifle and increased mobility instead of the regular M1 Astray. They also have the M1 Astray Shrike, which can hover in air and land. GAT-X105+P204QX Lightning Strike Gundam is also said to be there.

And btw, the ZAKUs and GOUFs were designed at the same time.. so, they should be fairly equal in strength.

And here, lemme compare the armaments of the Murasame and the GOUF:

Murasame : Fixed armaments: 2 x M2M5D 12.5mm CIWS, fire-lined, mounted in head; 4 x M2M5D 12.5mm CIWS, mounted on wings, operable only in mobile armor form; Type 70J Kai beam saber, stored on hips, hand-carried in use; Type 72 high-energy beam cannon, mounted on back, operable only in mobile armor form; anti-air missile launcher (4 x Type 66A air-to-air missile "Hayate"); shield, mounted on left arm in mobile suit mode

Optional hand armaments: Type 72 Kai "Ikazuchi" beam rifle, power rating unknown


And the GOUF: Fixed armaments: 2 x MA-M757 "Slayer Whip" heat rod, mounted on forearms, produces electrical shock; 2 x M181SE "Draupnir" 4-barrel beam gun, mounted on forearms; MMI-558 "Tempest" beam sword, stored inside shield, hand-carried in use; shield, mounted on left arm
Optional hand armaments: none

A little bit unbalanced eh?

And the Murasame had a gross weight of 46.8 tonnes, while the GOUF is 72.13 tonnes.

The Murasame is also shorter, being 17.21 metres tall while the GOUF is 19.2 metres tall.

So irregardless of what the booklet says, the stats speak for themselves. The Murasame is smaller, better equipped, and lighter, making it more agile. . .

So ORB forces had no real threat of being outdated.

Originally Posted by coba

Also, you have to remember that the side create something first does not mean that they will always have more advanced technology/build better product. The Murasame is created to counter ZAKU. However, the Gouf is created to surpass the Zaku (well, they are created like 1-2 years after the ZAKU). Unfortunately, the Orb hasn't had anytime to create a better MP MS.

Read above.

Originally Posted by coba

Still, those Gundam is not a complete product.

And neither was Freedom when Kira first took it.. . Your point?

Originally Posted by coba

I am not really so sure about the PLANT configuration, but I thought Junius seven is not a main city (I believe it is an agrucltural colony). And may I remind you that a lot of them are civilians and have fought one Bloody Valentine War, previously.

I am taking an average here. When REQUIEM blew PLANT up, Januarius 1 to 4 and December 7 and 8 to be exact, the death toll was around 1.5 million people. Which averages around 210 000 per colony.

In fact, I just found a source that says that PLANT's total population is 25 million.

Originally Posted by coba

But not all islands in Hawaii are packed with people

Yes, and not all colonies in PLANT are packed with people.. . .

Originally Posted by coba

Actually, they don't have any chance at all. The EA MSes already reach the vicinity of Morgenrete building which is in the inside of the island. The Orb's defenders in the sea and beach are already overrun. That's the reason why they hurry up to lauch the Kusanagi.

Really? Well, it has been a while since I last watched Seed. So forgive me. But I always thought that Freedom can get them out of ANY situation.

Originally Posted by coba

This is kinda confusing but most of the BC members are Logos (but not vice versa). The ones in the HB are the Blue Cosmos mebers who hate the coordinators. They are the one who are behing the creation of the GAT, Phantom Pain, Requiem, etc.

Okkkayyy. Thanks, I guess.

Originally Posted by PzIVf3

You underestimated the size of the mass superiority even Orb got the best quality M.S. but not quantity. Orb can't simply put the defense much longer that they don't enough replacement of spareparts and pilots. Even there production is not fast to complete a single Astray and put to combat.

And ZAFT did not have that much MS really. And ORB is known for it's military might AND industrial capability. Don't forget that they still have colonies in space.
And I told you already, this is different. The EA forces in SEED had a LIMITLESS amount of people and MS to fight with. ZAFT, however, had been fighting for well over 6 months and many people and MS had been destroyed. And with a population of over 25 million, it is really hard to keep attacking ORB.

Originally Posted by PzIVf3

Heine Westenfluss piloted the Gouf and performs well battling against the Astrays with his major hard battle experience.

And this is important .. . .why?? Isn't Heine WAY dead by then?? And isn't he a member of FAITH? And isn't he actually a GOOD pilot??

Originally Posted by PzIVf3

And the Archangel is not an officially named as a submarine class and not part of the Orb Navy. They just converted orthodox secrets.

And again, this is important . .. why?? Just because I don't register my gun in the police station, does not mean I can't kill a man with it. . .

[PzIVf3]

And ZAFT did not have that much MS really. And ORB is known for it's military might AND industrial capability. Don't forget that they still have colonies in space. And I told you already, this is different. The EA forces in SEED had a LIMITLESS amount of people and MS to fight with. ZAFT, however, had been fighting for well over 6 months and many people and MS had been destroyed. And with a population of over 25 million, it is really hard to keep attacking ORB.

Zaft has many occupied country and vast resources to produce many types of M.S. even at space they have many military colonies to create Fleets. Orb a small island is not large enough resources itself to become military might and industrial capability. Whats the connection of the Orb colonies do they have with only civilian population with a security forces like Heliopolis. Do they have war production in there?

And this is important .. . .why?? Isn't Heine WAY dead by then?? And isn't he a member of FAITH? And isn't he actually a GOOD pilot??

Heine is member Faith why?? He has destroyed a great number of mobile suits and several battleships during the Bloody Valentine and Second Battle of Jachin Due so he has acceptable to promote Faith. Thus he has giving a new Gouf and perform well against the Murasame and Astray even he battle Gaia. And what about Orb? How many are they left during the 1st battle of Orb and in space? Now Orb is rebuilt and rearm after the battle in space. Does the Orb new pilots has battle experience? Don't tell me you didn't watch as you said from the previous post and so all of your answer in this thread are not true correct?

[RAVNEN]

Originally Posted by PzIVf3

Heine is member Faith why?? He has destroyed a great number of mobile suits and several battleships during the Bloody Valentine and Second Battle of Jachin Due so he has acceptable to promote Faith. Thus he has giving a new Gouf and perform well against the Murasame and Astray even he battle Gaia. And what about Orb? How many are they left during the 1st battle of Orb and in space? Now Orb is rebuilt and rearm after the battle in space. Does the Orb new pilots has battle experience? Don't tell me you didn't watch as you said from the previous post and so all of your answer in this thread are not true correct?

Yup,I agree about Heine got FAITH membership.He has indeed destroy so many MS. I've heard some people talk about his appearance when EA attack PLANT with Nuke using Windam in GSD & he kill some enemy MS there. In Jachin Due he got to pilot GUAIZ expreimental firearms,because he an ace.He got killed by Gaia because godly Freedom interfere & because of his stupidity for not take notice of Gaia condition.

Orb only relies on Mongoerate to produce their MS forces.So they cannot chunk out more MS during any kind of war.After all they were caught unprepared from Zaft attack without any proper defense.Orb is an island nation & has no natural resource, I bet they import many of MS raw material from other country. Maybe they got cut off from mainland supply line by ZAFT because their involvement with EA.That why they could'nt chunk out more MS.

I agree with all of PzIVf3 opinion,cookies for all.

[Dark Shikra]

Lol this thread is funny.

There are people who don't reply accordingly, people who just reply for I-don't-know-what-reason, people who reply just for the sake of replying and people like me, who got nothing better to do but read and decided to say this.

And in case I am off-topic I am going to say this.coz 4tran sounds kind of scary.

Originally Posted by P..something

Heine is member Faith why?? He has destroyed a great number of mobile suits and several battleships during the Bloody Valentine and Second Battle of Jachin Due so he has acceptable to promote Faith. Thus he has giving a new Gouf and perform well against the Murasame and Astray even he battle Gaia. And what about Orb? How many are they left during the 1st battle of Orb and in space? Now Orb is rebuilt and rearm after the battle in space. Does the Orb new pilots has battle experience? Don't tell me you didn't watch as you said from the previous post and so all of your answer in this thread are not true correct?

Since when is Paladinoras doubting Heine's abilities?? And I don't even get why are you talking about Heine when Paladinoras and coba was talking about the two nation's technology. Who the hell cares about Heine's MS skills? Mind to explain?

..and someone even agree with you. Well, not to say you said anything wrong either. You just replied out of context... and did not answer why that point was even important. Paladin was asking why the sudden topic about Heine was important....... and then magically you guys drifted from that topic -__________-

That is also why this thread is funny. especially the Stellar thing(I think its still up there).. that was even funnier but it is off-topic...damn.

[PzIVf3]

Originally Posted by Dark Shikra

Lol this thread is funny.

There are people who don't reply accordingly, people who just reply for I-don't-know-what-reason, people who reply just for the sake of replying and people like me, who got nothing better to do but read and decided to say this.

And in case I am off-topic I am going to say this.coz 4tran sounds kind of scary.



Since when is Paladinoras doubting Heine's abilities?? And I don't even get why are you talking about Heine when Paladinoras and coba was talking about the two nation's technology. Who the hell cares about Heine's MS skills? Mind to explain?

..and someone even agree with you. Well, not to say you said anything wrong either. You just replied out of context... and did not answer why that point was even important. Paladin was asking why the sudden topic about Heine was important....... and then magically you guys drifted from that topic -__________-

That is also why this thread is funny. especially the Stellar thing(I think its still up there).. that was even funnier but it is off-topic...damn.

Its not about Heine skills. Its about experience pilots that has advantage than non-experience. EA and Zaft has many major battles through space and earth than the Orb. That's why Orb was defeated on the 1st battle of Orb against the EA experience they shown how poorly defense they made and not fully prepared. Even the Minerva they have more experienced pilots that's why Orb forces made poor result that they don't have experienced pilots.

The Gouf was made purpose for those who has experienced pilot as you can see Izack was using it and the Strike Freedom encounters 25 Gouf wearing red uniform that can indicate there are experienced pilots.

[RAVNEN]

Originally Posted by Dark Shikra

Lol this thread is funny.

There are people who don't reply accordingly, people who just reply for I-don't-know-what-reason, people who reply just for the sake of replying and people like me, who got nothing better to do but read and decided to say this.

And in case I am off-topic I am going to say this.coz 4tran sounds kind of scary.



Since when is Paladinoras doubting Heine's abilities?? And I don't even get why are you talking about Heine when Paladinoras and coba was talking about the two nation's technology. Who the hell cares about Heine's MS skills? Mind to explain?

..and someone even agree with you. Well, not to say you said anything wrong either. You just replied out of context... and did not answer why that point was even important. Paladin was asking why the sudden topic about Heine was important....... and then magically you guys drifted from that topic -__________-

That is also why this thread is funny. especially the Stellar thing(I think its still up there).. that was even funnier but it is off-topic...damn.

Ha...ha...ha...yup this is thread is the funniest,can't get enough of it. Anyway Heine thing is about manpower thing,that why he got involve. Even if Orb nation did create a kickass,uber godly & super mambo jumbo MS they can't win because they haven't had enough & skillful pilot for it.That one of the reason why Orb will invetably lose that battle.

Anyway,welcome to the club of 2nd Battle of ORB.Don't worry there's no Stellar thing again.I'm not agree blindly to somebody,it' because he got the point & I admire people who stay true to their opinion.Cookies for you.

[coba]

Originally Posted by Paladinoras

I never disagreed that SF and Ij's involvement change the timeline. I say that the battle will be over quicker. Which is true . . .
.

Well if the timeline doesn't change, it means that the battle will not be over quicker right ? The only thing that different is that the ZAFT can probably kill Djibril before his shuttle is out of reach and the Orb will likely suffer more loss at the same time.

And if Orb's soldiers are fighting for Orb, then why the hell would they be in chaos if Cagalli dies? The military of Orb is already very advanced and structured. They are not a group of thugs that will go crazy when their leader dies. The military power of Orb has always been and will always be. . great. They are not as weak as to go crazy if Cagali dies. In fact, they will fight harder. Like hell.

As crazy as it sounds, most of those Orb's military can't do anything when nobody leads them. Just see what happens before Cagalli shows up in the battle of Orb, everything is so messed up. Most of them knows that Yuuna is so stupid, but nobody does something about it (at least those military commander should take over in prganizing the defense).

Just because the ZAFT army has overrun the beachhead, does not mean that they will take ORB easily. Especially if Cagalli dies, they will fight till the end for Orb.

But Cagalli suprisingly is the only one who can organize the defense. Before she shows up, the Orb's defense is heavily pushed by the ZAFT.

Okkkayyy. Fine, lemme pull something out from my Seed Astray MS list. At the Second Battle of Orb, other than the Murasames, ORB forces also have the MVF-M12A Ootsukigata, which has the MULTI-LOCK ON SYSTEM. Makes cleaning ZAFT MSes a little bit easier. They also have the the M1A Astray, which has a sniper rifle and increased mobility instead of the regular M1 Astray. They also have the M1 Astray Shrike, which can hover in air and land. GAT-X105+P204QX Lightning Strike Gundam is also said to be there.

You just list the different type though. It doesn't mean that they have a lot of it.

An

d btw, the ZAKUs and GOUFs were designed at the same time.. so, they should be fairly equal in strength.

No, Gouf is rolled out later. Zaku has been exist way before ep 1 of GSD while the Gouf is introduced in ep 20. Gouf's desing is actually an improvement to the

And here, lemme compare the armaments of the Murasame and the GOUF:

Murasame : Fixed armaments: 2 x M2M5D 12.5mm CIWS, fire-lined, mounted in head; 4 x M2M5D 12.5mm CIWS, mounted on wings, operable only in mobile armor form; Type 70J Kai beam saber, stored on hips, hand-carried in use; Type 72 high-energy beam cannon, mounted on back, operable only in mobile armor form; anti-air missile launcher (4 x Type 66A air-to-air missile "Hayate"); shield, mounted on left arm in mobile suit mode

Optional hand armaments: Type 72 Kai "Ikazuchi" beam rifle, power rating unknown


And the GOUF: Fixed armaments: 2 x MA-M757 "Slayer Whip" heat rod, mounted on forearms, produces electrical shock; 2 x M181SE "Draupnir" 4-barrel beam gun, mounted on forearms; MMI-558 "Tempest" beam sword, stored inside shield, hand-carried in use; shield, mounted on left arm
Optional hand armaments: none

Eeh all your stuff you list doesn't prove that Murasame is a better MS than the Gouf. F-14 Tomcat can bring a better armament than the F-22. but F-22 is still a superior fighter. Gross weight doesn't change anything. Su-33 is heavier than most of the fighter aircrafts, but they are still more advanced.




A little bit unbalanced eh?

And the Murasame had a gross weight of 46.8 tonnes, while the GOUF is 72.13 tonnes.

The Murasame is also shorter, being 17.21 metres tall while the GOUF is 19.2 metres tall.

So irregardless of what the booklet says, the stats speak for themselves. The Murasame is smaller, better equipped, and lighter, making it more agile. . .

So ORB forces had no real threat of being outdated.

Read above.

And neither was Freedom when Kira first took it.. . Your point?

My point is that creating something first doesn't equal to more advanced (something that you said before). It doesn't really mean that because Orb creates the Gundam first, they will be still more advanced. I told you before that the ZAFT's technology is on par of the Orb. After all, both nations use coordinator to develop their technologies.

I am taking an average here. When REQUIEM blew PLANT up, Januarius 1 to 4 and December 7 and 8 to be exact, the death toll was around 1.5 million people. Which averages around 210 000 per colony.

In fact, I just found a source that says that PLANT's total population is 25 million.



Yes, and not all colonies in PLANT are packed with people.. . .

And how many Orb's population is ? You have to remember thta ZAFT also uses those grunts from the former EA.

Really? Well, it has been a while since I last watched Seed. So forgive me. But I always thought that Freedom can get them out of ANY situation.

Lol, GS is still close to reality while in GSD, Freedom trasforms into a God

And ZAFT did not have that much MS really. And ORB is known for it's military might AND industrial capability. Don't forget that they still have colonies in space.
And I told you already, this is different. The EA forces in SEED had a LIMITLESS amount of people and MS to fight with. ZAFT, however, had been fighting for well over 6 months and many people and MS had been destroyed. And with a population of over 25 million, it is really hard to keep attacking ORB.

Actually both Orb and ZAFT probably can roll out MS as much as they want, but they have lack of people. Orb is also in disadvantage due to their nature as a neutral country. Most people moves to orb to live peacefully. It is probably really hard to recruit people to military.

[Paladinoras]

Originally Posted by PzIVf3

Its not about Heine skills. Its about experience pilots that has advantage than non-experience. EA and Zaft has many major battles through space and earth than the Orb. That's why Orb was defeated on the 1st battle of Orb against the EA experience they shown how poorly defense they made and not fully prepared. Even the Minerva they have more experienced pilots that's why Orb forces made poor result that they don't have experienced pilots.

The Gouf was made purpose for those who has experienced pilot as you can see Izack was using it and the Strike Freedom encounters 25 Gouf wearing red uniform that can indicate there are experienced pilots.

. . . the Gouf is a MP MS. Which means anyone can use it, experienced or not experienced. And it is a bit OBVIOUS that people with EXPERIENCE can fight BETTER than people with NO EXPERINCE!!!!!

No.. . Orb was not defeated in the 1st battle of Orb because their pilots were inexperienced. It's because there were WAY too many mobile suits for them to cope with. This not like a Jet Li movie where pilots and mobile suits have unlimited stamina and could take on dozens of mobile suit at once. Well, non-main character pilots, at any rate..

And LOL, why the hell did you bring up Strike Freedom? This is like saying Bush is an awesome president and use the recent economic crisis as a supporting argument!!

Kira took them out in 2 AND A HALF MINUTES!!! They must be pretty damn good to last that long, eh?

And again, I don't see how this is important, Heine was dead, Yzak was in space. Only grunts handled the GOUF. . your point?

Originally Posted by coba

Well if the timeline doesn't change, it means that the battle will not be over quicker right ? The only thing that different is that the ZAFT can probably kill Djibril before his shuttle is out of reach and the Orb will likely suffer more loss at the same time.

I meant the whole battle of GSD as a whole, not just the Battle or Orb. And sides, Djibril begins his escape from ORB as the three DOM Trooper units of the rogue Clyne Faction arrive to join the battle. So, had the DOM Trooper's not showed up, Djibril would die easy.

Originally Posted by coba

As crazy as it sounds, most of those Orb's military can't do anything when nobody leads them. Just see what happens before Cagalli shows up in the battle of Orb, everything is so messed up. Most of them knows that Yuuna is so stupid, but nobody does something about it (at least those military commander should take over in prganizing the defense).

No, they can't do anything when a retard is leading them, which is also true for practically every nation out there. And as I said before, the Orb military does not do anything about Yuuna, because they are bounded by their code of honor to obey him, as he is the leader. It's samurai mentality, really, even if your Daimyo is an idiot, you cannot betray him as it would break every single code of Bushido. .

And in the Second Battle of Orb, they could not take over in organizing the defence, because they weren't told that ZAFT was going to attack them. They thought that Yuuna had solved the problem diplomatically, and sides, ZAFT attacked suddenly. And again, the Orb forces did not want to act on their own accord as it would mean disobeying their leader's authority, which is bad.

Stupid, I know, but kind of honorable in a way.

Originally Posted by coba

But Cagalli suprisingly is the only one who can organize the defense. Before she shows up, the Orb's defense is heavily pushed by the ZAFT.

Because an idiot is leading them which have no military skills whatsoever and are moving units from different places to other places where they are not as needed.

Originally Posted by coba

You just list the different type though. It doesn't mean that they have a lot of it.

Actually, there should be an equal amount of Ootsukigatas and Murasames as their basic design is similar. It even says so in the MSV design booklet. It's just that Bandai does not want to show it in the anime so that more people would want to buy the MSV booklet. ..

Originally Posted by coba

An
No, Gouf is rolled out later. Zaku has been exist way before ep 1 of GSD while the Gouf is introduced in ep 20. Gouf's desing is actually an improvement to the

Yes, but they are designed at the same period of time. And even if the GOUF's design is supposed to be an improvement. . The stats speak for themselves. Murasame is just plain better.

The GOUFs, I think were meant to handle the EA's Windams and Strike Daggers.
And in that aspect, they excel very well, as the GOUFs certainly outshine the EA MS..

But it's not the same case for Orb, I don't think ZAFT had actually thought about fighting them. . .

Originally Posted by coba

My point is that creating something first doesn't equal to more advanced (something that you said before). It doesn't really mean that because Orb creates the Gundam first, they will be still more advanced. I told you before that the ZAFT's technology is on par of the Orb. After all, both nations use coordinator to develop their technologies.

But you also claimed that the ZAFT forces are better because they created the first MS. . . so, you are basically arguing with yourself now..

And Orb technology is more advanced because they have the best of both worlds, so to speak. Coordinators help them, but talented Naturals also would not mind in helping them. And Naturals have shown themselves to be pretty adept in making better MP MSes... While ZAFT could only use Coordinators. . .

Originally Posted by coba

And how many Orb's population is ? You have to remember thta ZAFT also uses those grunts from the former EA.

Nobody knows. I should say around 20+ million. They should have a substantial amount of people, considering they accept everyone and that a lot of people WANT to go there. And if ZAFT uses grunts from former EA, it would be terrible as well, as there is a chance that they would betray ZAFT. Plus, let's not forget that Orb also harbor EA grunts who went there on their OWN FREE WILL. Makes fighting a little bit easier.

Originally Posted by coba

Lol, GS is still close to reality while in GSD, Freedom trasforms into a God

True, true. Although seeing Kira pwn everyone is not such a bad thing. .

Originally Posted by coba

Actually both Orb and ZAFT probably can roll out MS as much as they want, but they have lack of people. Orb is also in disadvantage due to their nature as a neutral country. Most people moves to orb to live peacefully. It is probably really hard to recruit people to military.

Yes, both ZAFT and Orb has a limited amount of population, although both are military and industrially powerful. And no, ORB is not at an disadvantage because of that. In fact, it is also an advantage because more people who have lived in ORB for a long time would now want to protect that peace and make it everlasting. Remember the ORB's principle? "Orb will not attack another nation, will not allow another nation to attack them, and will not intervene in the conflicts of other nations."

[coba]

Originally Posted by Paladinoras

I meant the whole battle of GSD as a whole, not just the Battle or Orb. And sides, Djibril begins his escape from ORB as the three DOM Trooper units of the rogue Clyne Faction arrive to join the battle. So, had the DOM Trooper's not showed up, Djibril would die easy.

The SF & the Doms surely helps to minimize the casualties in Orb's side. But, it does not really mean that the ZAFT can easily kill Djibril. The problem is that the ZAFT can't even locate where Djibril is during the battle of Orb thanks to those traitor from Orb as well as the Serians' family.

No, they can't do anything when a retard is leading them, which is also true for practically every nation out there. And as I said before, the Orb military does not do anything about Yuuna, because they are bounded by their code of honor to obey him, as he is the leader. It's samurai mentality, really, even if your Daimyo is an idiot, you cannot betray him as it would break every single code of Bushido. .

Remember what Orb needs is someone who can organize their defences, and nobody in the military does that. They don't really have to betray Yuuna during the battle of Orb (in fact, Yuuna is screaming for someone to take ocntrol in the defense). The problem is that aside from Cagalli, the Orb does not have a respectable and reliable leader. All the good leaders in the parlement commit suicide with Uzumi (I still think they did a stupid action since Cagalli was left alone without the guidance of the more experience parlement member). The rest of the surviving parlements (led by the Seiran) are the incapable ones.

And in the Second Battle of Orb, they could not take over in organizing the defence, because they weren't told that ZAFT was going to attack them. They thought that Yuuna had solved the problem diplomatically, and sides, ZAFT attacked suddenly. And again, the Orb forces did not want to act on their own accord as it would mean disobeying their leader's authority, which is bad.

If you watch the episode again, they already know that the ZAFT will invade them. The ZAFT deamnd is clear: surrender Djbril or they are going to invade. Just looks all the reaction on Cagalli as well as the commander in the Orb's HQ when they heard Yuuna's answer. However, for some reason, the Orb's commander does not even prepare for anything. Just compare it with Orb under the old parlement (Uzumi and co.). They react quickly when they have other sides send their forces to Orb's border.

Because an idiot is leading them which have no military skills whatsoever and are moving units from different places to other places where they are not as needed.

Yuuna is not really responsible for Orb's defense during the battle though. I believe he arrives late to the main HQ.

Yes, but they are designed at the same period of time. And even if the GOUF's design is supposed to be an improvement. . The stats speak for themselves. Murasame is just plain better.

Actually they are not designed at them same time ( I don't know why you get the idea that they are designed at the same time). The Gouf is clearly developed at the later time. I believe Heine's Gouf is one of the first prototypes of the Gouf (and it was intorduced in ep 20. Remeber, Heine still uses Zaku druing episode 10-12) while the Zaku has been around for almost four years. Similarly, the Murasame has been around for as long as the Zaku.

And no, your stats do not prove that the Murasame is better than Gouf. Like I said before, the F-14 Tomcat's armament is better than the F-22, but F-22 is clearly more superior. The dimension also does not prove anything. The Russia's Su-30/33 are bulkier than the F-18, but they are the better fighter aircraft.

The GOUFs, I think were meant to handle the EA's Windams and Strike Daggers.
And in that aspect, they excel very well, as the GOUFs certainly outshine the EA MS..

The Goufs also outshine Murasames in most occasion in the anime. I d obelieve if you count it properly, you will get more scene where the Gouf destroy Murasame instead of the other way around.

But you also claimed that the ZAFT forces are better because they created the first MS. . . so, you are basically arguing with yourself now..

And Orb technology is more advanced because they have the best of both worlds, so to speak. Coordinators help them, but talented Naturals also would not mind in helping them. And Naturals have shown themselves to be pretty adept in making better MP MSes... While ZAFT could only use Coordinators. . .

First of all, I believe if that the Orb's science and technology is probably as advanced as the ZAFT (you can trace back my posts to prove this). And no, the Orb technology is not more advanced than the ZAFT. In fact the point is discussed by Erica Simmons in GS. She mentioned how the Orb's technology can rival the ZAFT because they let the coordinator to work in the Morgenrete. After all, the coordinator is basically a human whose gene is altered so that he/she can use his/her potential to the fullest. And no, the naturals (EA/BC) do not really develop their own MS (that's the reason why they use Morgenrete in the first place. In fact, the Eurasian federation also employ the coordinator as long as they can achieve their objectives); they mostly just copy the technology.

However, at this time, I do believe that the ZAFT has a better MP MS than the Orb. For analogy, I used the Korean war. The allied forces (ZAFT) possess the F-80 (Zaku) while at the same time, the communist (Orb) boast the Mig-15 (Murasame). As you can guess, the F-80 (Zaku) is slightly inferior to the Mig-15 (Murasame). Due to this, during the duration of the battle, the allied (ZAFT) intorduce the newer plane -F-86 (Gouf)- which outperforms the Mig-15. In our case though, unfortunately, the Orb does not have enough time to roll out a better MP MS. I believe they could probably manufacture a better MP MS than the Murasame based on their technology, but unfortunately they chose not to.

Nobody knows. I should say around 20+ million. They should have a substantial amount of people, considering they accept everyone and that a lot of people WANT to go there. And if ZAFT uses grunts from former EA, it would be terrible as well, as there is a chance that they would betray ZAFT. Plus, let's not forget that Orb also harbor EA grunts who went there on their OWN FREE WILL. Makes fighting a little bit easier.

Well they lost alot of people too after the event in the GS though (especially the coordinators who decide to immingrate back to the PLANT). Initially, people want to go to Orb because they think they can get peace (just like Shinn's family) since Orb is a neutral country. However, the frist battle of Orb proves otherwise. And the EA grunts used by ZAFT (or Dullindal to be exact) are the one who believe in Dullindal (they also come on their own free will as shown in the anime before the ZAFT attacks the HB).

Yes, both ZAFT and Orb has a limited amount of population, although both are military and industrially powerful. And no, ORB is not at an disadvantage because of that. In fact, it is also an advantage because more people who have lived in ORB for a long time would now want to protect that peace and make it everlasting. Remember the ORB's principle? "Orb will not attack another nation, will not allow another nation to attack them, and will not intervene in the conflicts of other nations."

The problem with Orb is that they are technically a neutral country. People want to go to the Orb because they want to live in peace, not to join a military (for example Shinn's family). Going back to the GS, Orb always have a lack of military personnel. Why, because they are not really planning to attack other nation. They are just like Swiss in the real world.


On the other hand, although ZAFT probably do not have large population, they are already in the constant battle. The ZAFT is probably an expert in the recruitment. That's the reason why they probably have more people enroll in the military.

[PzIVf3]

. . . the Gouf is a MP MS. Which means anyone can use it, experienced or not experienced. And it is a bit OBVIOUS that people with EXPERIENCE can fight BETTER than people with NO EXPERINCE!!!!!

No.. . Orb was not defeated in the 1st battle of Orb because their pilots were inexperienced. It's because there were WAY too many mobile suits for them to cope with. This not like a Jet Li movie where pilots and mobile suits have unlimited stamina and could take on dozens of mobile suit at once. Well, non-main character pilots, at any rate..

And LOL, why the hell did you bring up Strike Freedom? This is like saying Bush is an awesome president and use the recent economic crisis as a supporting argument!!

Kira took them out in 2 AND A HALF MINUTES!!! They must be pretty damn good to last that long, eh?

And again, I don't see how this is important, Heine was dead, Yzak was in space. Only grunts handled the GOUF. . your point?

Because you didn't watch to get the point. Orb has severe disadvantage there resources are too thin to absorbed their losses including pilots that have not yet experienced at war to counter more experienced both EA and Zaft which is why I including Heine with his Gouf is made purpose for experienced pilots to counter Orb Murasame, there are both fairly equal but the only thing the difference is the battle experience which is why Orb forces made poor result battle against the Minerva that they don't any experienced pilot. So the result why Orb is almost defeated without the help of far more superior technology is the Strike Freedom.

See why the difference Kira using his Strike against the Zaku and Gouf there both equal performance match but Kira facing his experience pilots(Zaku) and more experience pilots (Gouf). That's why the Strike Freedom outclass the Zaku and Gouf with far more advanced performance technology only.