Madoka Magica - Episode 05 Discussion / Poll

[Midonin]

Spoiler for Madoka Magica 05 - Itoshita to Yasashisa to:

After two weeks of brutality and gloominess, it was nice to have a week where people weren't killed. I'm fully cognizant this may be setting up for things to get worse down the line, but as long as there is hope in this world, I'll take it where I can. Kyousuke is back in action, and he can play more than one song on his violin. To be a prodigy, you generally need that. The contract scene was sort of strange, though it does prove Kyubey's ears aren't just for decoration.

If there was ever a week capable of being called Chidamari Sketch, this week's Witch is a pretty good contender. The crayon and notebook backdrop was sufficiently bizarre, if quick. Perhaps that's a testament to Sayaka's swordplay. What will become of Kyoko is, of course, a mystery, but I hold out that, perhaps, she's not completely a villain herself.

[panzerfan]

What is a bit unsettling to me is how that Madoka is almost about to agree to the contract with Kyubey in the last minute of this episode to be frank. Everything else seem to be on a rather predictable path... although the conversation between Madoka and Homura proves interesting.

[Kaijo]

Originally Posted by panzerfan

What is a bit unsettling to me is how that Madoka is almost about to agree to the contract with Kyubey in the last minute of this episode to be frank. Everything else seem to be on a rather predictable path... although the conversation between Madoka and Homura proves interesting.

If that's true, it's likely Homura showed up to save Sayaka to prevent Madoka from making a contract. I'm almost a bit disappointed that Madoka is getting spared from making the hard decisions again and again, by other people making them for her. Until Madoka makes a stand herself, she's gonna remain Madoka Ikari.

As far as predictions go, if you change your story often enough, and make enough predictions, then statistically speaking, you're going to get some of them right. With each episode, the predictions change more and more, until we finally get to the end. If we look back at any of the early predictions, we'll just how badly wrong we were.

It's kinda like watching a batter step up to the plate, then predicting he'll hit it. He swings and misses. We predict another strike, and he hits it, so we predict he'll make it to first base. Booyah! I was right, he made it to first base! he's going to second? I don't think he'll make it and... he made it? But he won't make it to third... no wait, I think he will because he's almost there... and he made it! My corrected prediction was right! Since the ball is still being fumbled in the outfield, I can predict with 90% confidence he'll make it home... and see? I was right!

Edit: Curious, there seems to be multiple fansubbing groups for this, so which group is generally the faster release? PM me if you have a favorite speedy group (and I have all methods available to me to access a released fansub)

[Mentar]

Interesting details so far: (disclaimer: the way I understood them, I might be wrong)

o Kaijo should be pleased that the issue of "raising the dead" is finally addressed. Homura says it's not possible to resurrect anyone. So there ARE impossible wishes after all.

o Madoka wants Homura to be friends with Sayaka, to team up to reduce risk. Homura replies that MGs only fight for their wishes and give up on anything else. Madoka asks if that means that Homura has even given up on people in the past, and Homura answered that she did (!)

o QB tempted Madoka yet again to become a MG - to save Sayaka. Homura intervened to make sure that Madoka wasn't blackmailed into it.

o Kyoko was asking QB what the hell he was trying to pull here, and if this Sayaka dude actually signed up as MG for silly ideas like "fighting for justice".

Originally Posted by Kaijo

As far as predictions go, if you change your story often enough, and make enough predictions, then statistically speaking, you're going to get some of them right. With each episode, the predictions change more and more, until we finally get to the end. If we look back at any of the early predictions, we'll just how badly wrong we were.

Except that I didn't change my story at all (and still don't), I only accepted - before the episode aired - that the development would most likely be spread out over more episodes than I originally said. But if you can draw pleasure out of "neener neener neener", please be my guest.

Of course I'll adjust my speculations when there are developments that warrant that or contradict my assumptions, so you'll have even more fun in the future. I'm not arrogant enough to believe that I'm able to predict the whole show correctly after ep4. But it's interesting for me to collect puzzle pieces and trying to put them together. With some people (Key Board) this can be very worthwhile. And then there's other people...

[zato_1one]

I agree that the down fall of Sayaka will be related with Kamijo. But I doubt that he will dump her. He still need to do the rehabilitation and so far Sayaka was the only one (we know) who visited him. So, I doubt that he will have time to follow another girl.

Originally Posted by Kaijo

As far as predictions go, if you change your story often enough, and make enough predictions, then statistically speaking, you're going to get some of them right. With each episode, the predictions change more and more, until we finally get to the end. If we look back at any of the early predictions, we'll just how badly wrong we were.

It's kinda like watching a batter step up to the plate, then predicting he'll hit it. He swings and misses. We predict another strike, and he hits it, so we predict he'll make it to first base. Booyah! I was right, he made it to first base! he's going to second? I don't think he'll make it and... he made it? But he won't make it to third... no wait, I think he will because he's almost there... and he made it! My corrected prediction was right! Since the ball is still being fumbled in the outfield, I can predict with 90% confidence he'll make it home... and see? I was right!

I fully agree with this. Sometimes, I'm very annoyed with comments like "This is predictable"

[BaKaBaKaOtaKu]

W0O0OT!! EP 05 IS FAQING OUT!! but i'd be watching it later, l0l. i still need to go to my class..XDD

nobody died!?! ep 06 will have it then! and yey! guess the
plotholes aren't really plotholes! XDD BANZAI!! GEN FTFW! XDD

[momobunny]

It's true, many of our predictions were wrong and/or altered to be right. I'm glad that the predictions aren't all true though, like previously said it would be boring if they were.

[Kaijo]

Glad that raised the dead is established an impossibility; it's important to set the rules.

If Kyube doesn't remember making a contract with Homura, then it's possible Homura's wish was to wipe memories from both Madoka's and Kyube's mind. Making it another world would be needlessly complex, when a simple memory wipe and removal of powers would do.

Sayaka gets owned, and while part of that could be explained as Sayaka being new to this, there is also a very deliberate strength gap, too. The more witches you kill, the stronger you get? I'm also a bit disappointed because Sayaka was shown to have incredible speed in the last episode, and that aspect is sadly lacking here.

It's looking more and more like Kyube is a neutral. He wants to make Magical Girls to kill witches, so it would seem counter-productive to have MG's fight each other. Either he can't stop them (in which case he's powerless to do anything except grant wishes and make MG's), or he won't. If he can't stop them, then there should be no downsides to deciding not to kill witches. I'm almost wondering why Sayaka didn't say, "You want the witch? Fine, knock yourself out."

Still waiting for a fansub to really understand everything, though.

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by Kaijo

It's looking more and more like Kyube is a neutral. He wants to make Magical Girls to kill witches,

Isn't a neutral party such that doesn't take sides in the conflict? But if QB wants to make MGs to kill witches, as you said, it means he is against witches, which means he isn't neutral.

[Mentar]

Originally Posted by zato_1one

I agree that the down fall of Sayaka will be related with Kamijo. But I doubt that he will dump her. He still need to do the rehabilitation and so far Sayaka was the only one (we know) who visited him. So, I doubt that he will have time to follow another girl.

That's just one of many possibilities. Another would be that he'd simply concentrate on playing again instead of falling for Sayaka. Or that he falls down the stairs and dies... dumping her for another girl would only be the nastiest and most painful result I could come up with ^_^;

The core which I'd say is vital is that what Sayaka really wants is to be loved by Kamijo. And I think that she's going to be sorely disappointed there.

I fully agree with this. Sometimes, I'm very annoyed with comments like "This is predictable"

"This is so predictable" is my second-most-hated line after "This is so cliche". Especially since those people who give this kind of complaint tend to be really poor at predictions.

So far, the story has been really fascinating. Hope it keeps it up!

[Sheba]

Originally Posted by Midonin

Spoiler for Madoka Magica 05 - Itoshita to Yasashisa to:

After two weeks of brutality and gloominess, it was nice to have a week where people weren't killed.

I don't see where you have gotten this impression. Yes, this is a magical girl show where people can die, but this is nowhere Tomino style or Ga Rei Zero first episodes of KILL KILL KILL KILL. Uroboshi have the good taste to at least let his characters, those in this show, develop.

[Kaoru Chujo]

The Shaftiness of the visual side of this episode was outstanding. Such great angles and patterns.

And the music is just great. Even the OP, which was not written by Kajiura, and which I took a while to warm up to.

Highly enjoyable episode. For me, the show just gets richer, developing our expectations and then playing with them, so that there is an emotional charge underlying everything.

When Madoka and Sayaka were on the riverbank, I heard a bit of a Saitou Chiwa sound from Yuuki Aoi, at one point. I also heard how different her voice was from the more normal, but also excellent, Kitamura Eri. Ao-chan may sound odd or thin sometimes, but that is part of what enables her to make her character seem vulnerable, and actually to be feeling emotion rather than just acting it.

[Kaijo]

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

Isn't a neutral party such that doesn't take sides in the conflict? But if QB wants to make MGs to kill witches, as you said, it means he is against witches, which means he isn't neutral.

True, but the reason why I said he seems neutral, is because he doesn't stop MG's from fighting, either. If he were really against witches, then MG's fighting is contrary to his goal. Less MG's equal less people to fight witches, which means he has to find more MG's to replace them.

Kyube just "is." The fact that he seemingly lacks a lot of emotion, makes me think of him more as a robot with a programmed subroutine.

Originally Posted by Mentar

"This is so predictable" is my second-most-hated line after "This is so cliche". Especially since those people who give this kind of complaint tend to be really poor at predictions.

Careful there; considering you've had to change predictions several times, one could say you were really poor at them, too.

But if you can predict it, then it's predictable, by the literal definition of the term.^^

Considering it sounds like the very storyboard could undergo last minute changes, making predictions at all would only be for fun, anyway. If one of us were somehow right, it would only be due to random chance.

Anyway, I don't really predict, so much as analyze what has happened and what has been said, and attempt to postulate several possible reasons why. If I do anything that looks like a prediction, it's merely drawing out the possible logical conclusions that can be formed thus far. So it's more like a science experiment; "Here's my hypothesis, let's do the test/observe the experiment and see if it holds."

Unless a story wants to be entirely random, most plots do follow some kind of predictable story line. You can't write a story without tropes, after all, so the big question is which tropes the show plans to use (or subvert).

[Midonin]

Originally Posted by Sheba

I don't see where you have gotten this impression. Yes, this is a magical girl show where people can die, but this is nowhere Tomino style or Ga Rei Zero first episodes of KILL KILL KILL KILL. Uroboshi have the good taste to at least let his characters, those in this show, develop.

I never said he wasn't. I was simply saying that I appreciate the change in tone for this week's episode compared to the last two weeks into something that is, on average, more positive.

[Decagon]

I'm surprised people aren't wondering about how quickly Kyoko decided to kill Sayaka after Sayaka criticized her character--maybe it suggests she had some backstory we should be sympathetic about.

I liked how Sayaka's magic circle were measures.

[Seihai]

To address something different, I loved the action-filled scenes from when Kyoko appeared till Homura appeared to save Sayaka's life. It was just so cool.
Specifically:
- everytime Kyoko used her epic spear in "Schlangenform".
- when Sayaka negated Kyoko's dash thrust move by thrusting her own katana's tip against the spear's tip.
- the scene which looked like Homura froze time to save Sayaka. The slowmowed water drops emphasized the scene in an amazing way.

Also, Academy City's wind turbines invaded Madoka Magica! I figure someone will go on a rampage to destroy illusions.

Spoiler:

In the end this will all have been a part of the plan from upside-down-in-a-tube-guy! A la Crowley.

Originally Posted by Sheba

I don't see where you have gotten this impression. Yes, this is a magical girl show where people can die, but this is nowhere Tomino style or Ga Rei Zero first episodes of KILL KILL KILL KILL. Uroboshi have the good taste to at least let his characters, those in this show, develop.

Isn't it worse if characters get developed before they die?

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by Kaijo

True, but the reason why I said he seems neutral, is because he doesn't stop MG's from fighting, either. If he were really against witches, then MG's fighting is contrary to his goal. Less MG's equal less people to fight witches, which means he has to find more MG's to replace them.

Kyube just "is." The fact that he seemingly lacks a lot of emotion, makes me think of him more as a robot with a programmed subroutine.

I wouldn't call that neutral. Anyway, he needs to be given a motivation. Once that clear, we'll be able to see his true colors.

[monir]

That was an interesting episode. I found Madoka to be a bit annoying this time around even though her worries are perfectly understandable. She is worried about Sayaka and the danger Sayaka faces when she chose to become Mahou Shoujo. Madoka goes to talk to Homura about it. She tries to persuade Homura to work together with Sayaka cause their chance of survival rate increases when fighting a witch. She also wants Homura to not to get into fights with Sayaka like she used to do with Mami. Homura's reply is as blunt as ever and pretty much flat out reject Madoka's suggestion. Homura also adds that Madoka should pretty much give up on Sayaka and forget about her. The following is what I found the most interesting portion of this episode....

Homura hints at Sayaka's fate that is awaiting her just because of the reason that driven her to become a Mahou Shoujo.

Some of us in the thread has already speculated on the above and few of us went even further...

Back to the episode... The new girl in town is interested at testing out Sayaka, especially after learning about how she chose to become a Mahou Shoujo. Sayaka locates a barrier that is casted by a witch's familiar. Madoka wants to accompany her because she is worried about her. Sayaka locates the familiar and goes in for the kill. New girl shows up and intervenes. New girl lets that familiar escape to Sayaka's dismay. New girl says that you wait till that familiar becomes a witch itself and then go for the kill. It's much more fulfilling that way cause you get your hands on a Grief Seed. They argue. New girl takes it upon herself to teach the upstart n00b the ways of a Mahou Shoujo. Both of them start fighting. This is where I found Madoka a bit annoying to the goody-too-pant character she is and at her naiveté. She wants to know why these two are fighting instead of working together. She quickly ponders if there is anything she could do. Enter Kyube.

That little thing cutely suggest that there is something Madoka can do, that she can.... Kyube leaves the suggestion on the air in vague terms. Madoka grasps on it. Silly girl. She is ready to become a Mahou Shoujo. And that's when Homura enters the scene.

The only likable character in this series for me is Homura. There is a lot of things we don't know about her. Even Kyube isn't sure about Homura. When the new girl asks Kyube about Homura, Kyube couldn't provide any answer. Kyube couldn't even recall when was it that Homura signed her contract with it.

Homura is by far the most interesting and mysterious. I liked her directness to Madoka when she came to talk to her about Sayaka. In that conversation I found Madoka to be annoying and Homura to be ruthlessly pragmatic. It also sheds light on some of the theories that are here about the kind of motivation requires prior to signing up to be a Mahou Shoujo. Sayka's reason for becoming a Mahou Shoujo is flat out looked down by both Homura and the new girl in town.

Oh and, apparently the dead can't be revived, so that wish is also out of the question.

[Kanon]

Originally Posted by Mentar

Well, as I said, the story moved slower than I expected due to the extended first half, but at the moment - after watching 5 raw - I see no reason why I should alter this outline. I still think that in ep6, she will begin her descent. I still think that Kamijo will dump her, and all the rest. Maybe this will change with a sub, but at the moment - not so.

*shrug*

Seems like you misunderstood me. I said your prediciton for this episode were wrong (I don't know how I could have made it clearler). I never said your prediction for the whole show were wrong, un

Originally Posted by Mentar

So, I guess that next episode, Sayaka and Kyoko will have an initial clash (not necessarily a physical fight, but I expect Kyoko to bully her, and Sayaka will bite back), and the climax in the second half is going to be that Kamijo doesn't love her back like Sayaka wishes for... and that Sayaka begins her slippery slope down. Then, in ep6 she's going to begin her descent... and once she does become a witch, Kyoko will take advantage of it, kill her and collect the grief seed.

Anyone could have predicted that Kyouko and Sayaka would clash (I mean really, Kyouko herself announced it at the end of last week's episode). Sayaka's slippery slope down hasn't even begun. Nothing happened with Kamijo, at least not anything that would be bad from Sayak's viewpoint. So yes, your prediction for this episode were off.

I was just teasing you a bit. Should have guessed you'd get on the defensive right away.

[Kaijo]

I'm actually becoming a bit annoyed Homura. Sure, I can understand you don't want Madoka to become an MG (although why it's just Madoka and not anyone else is a bit strange, and would be something I'd question if I were Madoka). But her actions don't line up with her stated goals. At least, if Homura was previously friends with Madoka, then she should know the girl well enough to know that Madoka will always worry about her friends.

Thus, the best way to keep Madoka on the sidelines, is to team up with Sayaka and keep the girl alive. Hopefully she'll realize this after this clash. Otherwise, it just seems to be real strange inconsistency as a cheap way to drum up the drama of "will she/won't she become an MG? Look how we're torturing her!"

It's also strange that she wouldn't worry about Sayaka at all, and indeed, chalk her up to being dead. In one way, I can see it, because if Sayaka is an idealistic character in a cynical universe, then yeah, she's dead. But that means Homura is an author avatar; she shouldn't know this. In a cynical universe, only strength matters. At the least, if Homura values Madoka at all, then she should be trying to help Madoka's friend, because that would make Madoka happy.

This speaks to me that Homura isn't trying to prevent Madoka from being an MG out of any sort of friendship, but for another reason. Something that she perceives as being bad happening if Madoka does. But yet Madoka can't be outright killed, either.

Still, you dumb woman; you should team up with Sayaka, and reassure Madoka that everything will be fine and that you'll take care of everything, so Madoka doesn't need to become an MG.

And all we know so far, is that Homura says you can't wish back the dead. Time loops and world resets would technically bring back the dead, or perhaps Homura is lying. Only Kyube would know for sure, so if it's possible, then it's a nice misdirect that will catch a lot of people.