(L) Re:Creators

[magnuskn]

Originally Posted by GMT

The problem is that the writing in this show really isn't that good. It's cute. It uses cute little tricks to make itself look clever. The problem is that it doesn't really seem interested in exploring the premise of "anime characters get transported to the real world and have to deal with it."

Its creators stated that they were trying to pitch an anime battle-royale for years along the vein of what would happen if some franchise got matched up against some other franchise. Except thanks to copyright laws, this is the show they gave us instead.

The whole "anime characters go IRL" thing seems to be window dressing for the fights. It's mostly handled by dry info-dumping, where the show flagrantly violates "show, don't tell." Lots of info-dumping that says "look how clever we are! We came up with this neat premise! Do you see how much thought we put into it?" Yes, they did put a lot of thought into it ... but the thinking apparently gets suspended when it comes time to fight.

The Tokyo of Re:Creators seems curiously empty ... there's always huge empty spaces for anime characters to get into fights without the pandemonium and collateral casualties having overpowered brawls in mega-metropolises ought to have. It's also amazingly claustrophobic ... characters always seem to be running into each other when it's convenient for the plot. The world of Re:Creators is just a battle stage for the obvious expy of some well known anime franchise to go up against the obvious expy of some other well known anime franchise. The consequences are relatively minimal, and only come up when the show feels like it's obligated to pay lip service to its premise.

This last episode was a really clear example of how poor the writing is. Mamika's death was handled in the most ham-handed way possible. When she was introduced, it was obvious that she was going to get killed off. She kept popping off death flags in virtually every episode she was in. She fit into the cliche of the bad guy with a heart of gold, who questions what side they're really working for, has a face-heel turn, and then sacrifices themselves heroically. Only they had to cram in the other cliche of the tragic romance, where one person magically lives long enough after a mortal wound to die in the arms of the one they love (or who knows them best.)

Since Mamika represents what passes for character development in this show, and her development is as cliche as can be, nobody else gets any real character development that doesn't fit the well-worn trope they represent. One might argue Sota is getting character development, but he's ticking off the boxes of the traumatized, reluctant hero; who spends time gazing at his navel, struggling with the ghosts of his past, before he emerges to be the hero his position in the story would suggest that he is. Nobody else progresses beyond their initial motivations and character archetypes.

I think that's why the writing is starting to piss people off. They were seduced by the premise, and the promise that the show would try to do that premise justice. But the show's writing is starting to show that the writers haven't really put more than initial effort into fleshing out the consequences of the premise they sold at the start. The premise is showing hints of only being there to enable anime characters that wouldn't otherwise meet to get into fights. Mamika died for honor ... and our amusement.

I woke up with a headache this morning, so I'll just say I fundamentally disagree with your opinion. The show has clearly shown that it put thought into its premise and has spent time setting up possible avenues to explore it, shutting off others on its way. Characters have been growing throughout and people like Alice are clearly set up to keep growing as characters.

The show did itself no favor with the heavy coincidence laden approach to last episode. But the fact that so many people are suddenly slamming the entire show shows more that some people were only waiting for it to make a stumble so that they could shiv it. Typical internet hater brigade stuff.

[FlameSparkZ]

Man, what an episode. Magane sure is making the most of the situation to entertain herself.

And to make things worse, they also have Alice to deal with.

[DemonneoPT]

Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor

I’m actually experiencing the opposite of that. The first time I read the premise, I kinda expected a mindless brawl show between various animangames characters brought to life IRL. I expected the show not to touch various serious themes that can be brought up when you bring fictional characters to life in favor of the battles. In short, knowing the premise, my expectation was quite low (unlike many people, I do not worship the similarly-premised Fate anime series nor put them on my top 5-10 of my all-time greatest anime). But to my pleasant surprise, R:C actually took the more cerebral path and actually addressed various interesting issues that I myself will question when fictional characters come to life. So far, I think the show have addressed around 50-60% of IRL issues that I can come up with (still addressed though, not all of them are solved). I consider that an achievement for a show with an arguably nonsense premise which caters to tweens and teenagers (yes, don’t forget the main target audience of this show). The show is not perfect in addressing the IRL issues but considering the alternative (aka. mindless brawls), I actually feel that I got myself a good deal when I watch R:C. I can’t remember other anime shows with this premise treated its subject matter to R:C’s level of seriousness.

In short, instead of treating R:C like a “glass half empty”, I treated it like a “glass half full”. I guess those who are furious and severely disappointed by the show so far are those “glass half empty”-people or those who expected so much more. For the latter, I seriously gotta ask: what is your basis for such high expectation? The premise & synopsis certainly didn’t promise something highbrow; The previous work of the studio is Aldnoah which is quite bad when it comes to writing; The previous work of the writer is Black Lagoon which is a fun ride with enough level of seriousness but was never on Monster or Death Note-level; The previous work of the director is a mixed bag (F/Z is pretty good while Girls Bravo is quite bad). All of them combined should only produce a moderate expectation at best.

Note: I already understand the disappointment of those who expected R:C to be nothing more than brainless wall-to-wall action as Harry Dresden’s post in past pages already represented them well (for better or worse).

I expected a mix between sick action moments and exploring the interesting issues and questions when fictional characters come to life. Not just one of the options. So far, the action part is almost non existent with a few exceptions and even tho the show is indeed adressing some pertinent ideas with it's main theme i can't really say the approach to it is being the best. Massive info dumps through Meteora's mouth (a boring character which does not help the case either, just like Souta) and over the top coincidences to make the plot moving forward are hardly the most exciting way to tell the story and taking it seriously imo. All i see is a cool theme being wasted with poor writing and lack of action scenes, to at least, make up for it. True, the show can still entertain otherwise i would not be here, but i can't really say i'm having the time of my life watching it either...

[GMT]

Originally Posted by magnuskn

I woke up with a headache this morning, so I'll just say I fundamentally disagree with your opinion. The show has clearly shown that it put thought into its premise and has spent time setting up possible avenues to explore it, shutting off others on its way. Characters have been growing throughout and people like Alice are clearly set up to keep growing as characters.

The show did itself no favor with the heavy coincidence laden approach to last episode. But the fact that so many people are suddenly slamming the entire show shows more that some people were only waiting for it to make a stumble so that they could shiv it. Typical internet hater brigade stuff.

You seem to be ignoring the undercurrent of skepticism that's greeted this show since the first episode. The show's obsession with desert-dry exposition was pointed out as early as episode two, for example. The show's pacing problems have been pointed out all along. But it was acknowledged that some shows find time to find their stride; and that this show might somehow turn out better than its studio (known only for Aldonah.Zero and Beautiful Bones: Sakurako's Investigation) and its writing staff would suggest.

Yes, the show has intriguing, even promising elements. It's also shackled to poor writing choices. Episode 9, pretty much, encapsulates everything that's wrong with the show's writing and compresses it to critical mass. That's why the discontent is suddenly so vocal. It makes the show's flaws very difficult to ignore.

As an aside: It is difficult to take seriously your assertion that characters are set up to grow in this show; when your first example is Aliceteria. How has she grown as a character? She's always presented as a character with a profound ignorance of things beyond her preconceptions. Just like Meteora is always Exposition-chan, and Selesia is always the plucky shounen protagonist, always willing to walk into a fight where the chances of her getting her ass kicked approach 100%, because it's the right thing to do.

I've yet to see any character in this show progress in a meaningful fashion. Or, at least, not in a fashion that doesn't trace well-worn writing cliches associated with the characters' archetypes. I suppose one might try to suggest that such character development will take time to happen; but an interview with Mamika's VA already suggests that the back half of the show is going to introduce new characters; so I should probably adjust my expectations of this show downward and simply enjoy it for the fluffy bit of otaku bait that it is.

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

Originally Posted by DemonneoPT

I expected a mix between sick action moments and exploring the interesting issues and questions when fictional characters come to life.

IMO that's exactly what R:C is doing so far but probably not to the degree that you like. And let's face it, writing this kind of story is kinda hard and needed better resources. You have to juggle between the action and all the bureaucracy, explorations and various implications and effects of the fictional characters (with powers) who are brought to life and living IRL. Not even Fate/Zero or Stay Night is this complex. If you remember those shows, almost every big events, issues & problems from the magus society that can expose their world to the 'muggle world' can be solved with magic be it by hypnosis or other cover-up methods (there's no such convenience in R:C, even Meteora's restoration magic can't work IRL). Even the servants who can turn invisible and not needing food nor shelter is a more convenient concept compared to the creations in R:C. I'd give R:C a bit more slack coz it has to deal with a lot more complexity and actual Japanese government agency, not some made-up magical government body like in Fate anime. Their effort to tackle the issues alone is admirable for a show aimed at tweens & teenagers.

But of course that doesn't stop me from criticizing this series for its flaws and mistakes like I did some pages ago. For me, criticizing and enjoying can be done at the same time with the right show.

[magnuskn]

Originally Posted by GMT

.
You seem to be ignoring the undercurrent of skepticism that's greeted this show since the first episode. The show's obsession with desert-dry exposition was pointed out as early as episode two, for example. The show's pacing problems have been pointed out all along. But it was acknowledged that some shows find time to find their stride; and that this show might somehow turn out better than its studio (known only for Aldonah.Zero and Beautiful Bones: Sakurako's Investigation) and its writing staff would suggest.

Yes, the show has intriguing, even promising elements. It's also shackled to poor writing choices. Episode 9, pretty much, encapsulates everything that's wrong with the show's writing and compresses it to critical mass. That's why the discontent is suddenly so vocal. It makes the show's flaws very difficult to ignore.

As an aside: It is difficult to take seriously your assertion that characters are set up to grow in this show; when your first example is Aliceteria. How has she grown as a character? She's always presented as a character with a profound ignorance of things beyond her preconceptions. Just like Meteora is always Exposition-chan, and Selesia is always the plucky shounen protagonist, always willing to walk into a fight where the chances of her getting her ass kicked approach 100%, because it's the right thing to do.

I've yet to see any character in this show progress in a meaningful fashion. Or, at least, not in a fashion that doesn't trace well-worn writing cliches associated with the characters' archetypes. I suppose one might try to suggest that such character development will take time to happen; but an interview with Mamika's VA already suggests that the back half of the show is going to introduce new characters; so I should probably adjust my expectations of this show downward and simply enjoy it for the fluffy bit of otaku bait that it is.

I'm enjoying myself immensely, so I guess I got other standards than you.

Aliceteria has been built up as a character, even if it is in a way which makes her an overimpulsive character. Her connection to Mamika was genuine, it was touched upon that she seems to lose all those she gets emotionally connected to and hence she is overreacting and jumping to conclusions. The show has spent time on making it clear what kind of character she is and so her behaviour makes sense. Depending if the writers keep her alive, she is clearly slated to overcome those personality weaknesses.

Meteora is not always only about exposition. More and more she has turned out to be the emotional center of the show for the other characters, who have grown to respect and like her. For the last two episodes, she spent the majority of her time being an emotional anchor for Sota.

And I repeat my assertion that people are just waiting to shiv this show, because they want it to fail to fulfil some grudge they have towards the production studio. Yes, Aldnoah Zero had a ton of writing problems and I don't look back fondly on that show. But I don't pre-condemn a new show by another writer just because it was produced by the same studio.

The assertion that episode nine coalesced the perceived problems in the show when those problems mentioned (overexposition and stagnant characterization) were exactly not the problems of this episode also makes no sense.

[Solace]

Originally Posted by GMT

The problem is that the writing in this show really...

Amazing post. It's exactly how I feel about the show. I do enjoy it, don't get me wrong, but it's amazing how mediocre it is given how much potential it has.

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by magnuskn

And I repeat my assertion that people are just waiting to shiv this show, because they want it to fail to fulfil some grudge they have towards the production studio. Yes, Aldnoah Zero had a ton of writing problems and I don't look back fondly on that show. But I don't pre-condemn a new show by another writer just because it was produced by the same studio.

Though I'm not that vocal, I think all of GMT's criticisms were justified. And I liked Aldnoah Zero. It's good points were enough to make me forgive if not forget the problems in its writing. Not so much Re:Creators. They need either cooler fights with more music or, I don't know, step up the writing.

[magnuskn]

The problem with the assertion that the show isn't interested in dealing with the implications of anime characters transported to the real world is that this assertion is utter bullshit.

The show has spent entire episodes dealing with those aspects. And that segment has been heavily criticised for not going balls to the walls with action, with people calling the show boring and exposition laden. IMO, the show cannot possibly deal with all possible aspects and still tell its main story. But the writers did a good job in exploring a good number of them.

[RDNexus]

Let us do it this way... If it were you guys, how'd have you written the plot so far?

[magnuskn]

I'm pretty happy with the plot, so no big rewrites for me. Only some touch-ups:

- Have someone question Meteora's theory on the world ending.
- Have Sota feel more obviously guilty for keeping things to himself (for two entire days, OMG!)
- Have Maganes powerset include "High amounts of luck to be in the right place at the right time"
- Have Sota tell Meteora and Yuya about him being blackmailed by Magane, so that them showing up makes more sense.

[FlameSparkZ]

Originally Posted by magnuskn

I'm pretty happy with the plot, so no big rewrites for me. Only some touch-ups:

- Have someone question Meteora's theory on the world ending.
- Have Sota feel more obviously guilty for keeping things to himself (for two entire days, OMG!)
- Have Maganes powerset include "High amounts of luck to be in the right place at the right time"
- Have Sota tell Meteora and Yuya about him being blackmailed by Magane, so that them showing up makes more sense.

^I wonder though...maybe Magane's author wrote her like that in the story, and it also applies in the "real world"?

The same happened with Alicetaria, Yuya and Meteora...probably just plot tho

[magnuskn]

Well, Magane just wandering into the damnedest situations is kinda the most obvious problem with the show, IMO. ^^

[Darthtabby]

This show certainly has its flaws writing wise, but so far my only major complaint is that Episodes 2-5 were very exposition heavy (I think the show hit its stride with Episode 6). Abuse of coincidence to keep the story moving is something I can roll with if there are things I like about a show.

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by xrick

Let us do it this way... If it were you guys, how'd have you written the plot so far?

More fights set to more music. Also, have the fights be a bit more decisive than "they decide to stop at some point before anybody dies". You can only do that so many times. But hey, as far as I'm concerned, put enough "cool" and you don't need good writing.

(Though maybe I wouldn't have Sota spill the beans to Mamika only to then clamp down with Meteora. And less "Magane's there by coincidence." She's either there because she has the means and the will to involve herself, or she isn't there at all.)

[Random14]

I don't like the psychotic characters so I'm put off by Magane's continuous luck more than others. The sad thing is that given the setting, she could literally have high Luck as an in-universe plot device to move the plot along. That would be overpowered, but then we also have a giant robot that so far seems unopposed.

The saddest thing about Alnoah Zero is that it probably would have been better if it had just ended at the first half, as a "bad ending" for almost everyone involved. I remember one review I read literally said they kind of wish the second season had never been made. Sad end, but at least would have avoided all the problems of the second half.

I don't mind the talking and exposition (in limited amounts), I'm actually a bit disappointed we haven't gotten more interaction between the Creators and Creations. Like last episode we met with two more Creators, Yuya attacked his writer, and suddenly it turned into a comedic moment and cut away. The ending is just everyone having fun, and I was kind of hoping that would help draw Sota out of his shell too.

A lot of the show so far have been the "heroes" wandering around looking for Altair and her allies, having a fight, then one side retreats. Mamika's character growth could have changed the dynamic of Altair's group, but she dies before passing on important information to anyone trustworthy. And Magane clearly doesn't mind just watching the world burn, which I find boring compared to the ongoing mystery behind Altair. Not just Sota's link to her, but also how she came to life, just how powerful she is, etc. We see her sitting around a lot, if Meteora's theory is correct, you'd think a giant battle royale would further her goals.

We'll see if Alice can actually grow as a character, otherwise we could end up with two Creations down already, which seems kind of early for a two-cour show. The show hasn't gone off the rails yet but the flaws are getting more annoying.

[drawr]

Originally Posted by GMT

The problem is that the writing in this show really isn't that good. It's cute. It uses cute little tricks to make itself look clever. The problem is that it doesn't really seem interested in exploring the premise of "anime characters get transported to the real world and have to deal with it."

How I've been feeling about the show for a while. I had issues before but in light of recent changes and well...I was wondering why Mamika was getting developed while everyone else had nothing going on, and now she died and everyone else still has nothing. You could pick and choose any creation(except maybe Altair) and remove them or exchange them for others, and nothing would really change. Aren't they supposed to be the main characters? Yes they are so inconsequential. Selesia hasn't done anything for 2? Episodes, or hell even 3 and now. She fought a bit but she had no meaningful dialogue. You could replace her with another fighter and vice versa.

Selesia's still MIA. Is she with Rui, investigating the explosion? Can they be allowed to do anything? What are Altair and Blitz doing in the wake of the attack? What does Blitz even do? How did the government cover it up when it was so massive? I really wish we got any of this rather than Makagami toying with dumb characters for over half an episode because it felt like a massive waste of time. I'm not feeling this plotline of Mamika revenge/misunderstandings as an interesting way to end the first "season". But revenge is the main villain's motivation as well, so I guess I had my expectations too high. But with new characters on the way are the ones we have now still going to be ignored? Blitz and others may as well be brand new characters themselves when the 2nd half starts.

And before I forget, I'm disappointed by how shallow the creator-creation relationships are. No one is probing their creators about why they wrote them this way or made their world like this. It's like one side feels complete contempt and is against reasoning and the other doesn't question their creator's decisions at all. Selesia/Rui do a bit, but it was all shallow complaints for comedic scenes. The show overall takes itself seriously but for the most obvious and unique aspect to it, it really falls short imo.

[xizro345]

PV for episode 10:

[Vaans]

Either Alice is dumb or just bad writing?

[BBOvenGuy]

Originally Posted by drawr

I was wondering why Mamika was getting developed while everyone else had nothing going on, and now she died and everyone else still has nothing.

This is exactly my problem. I may be biased, though, because it's exactly what I would have done, take the silly magical girl and make her the more well-rounded person. But then they threw it all away, so what was the point?