2014-06-04, 07:41 | Link #33941 | |||||
Meh
Join Date: Feb 2008
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But hey, good attempt at trying to put words in my mouth, it always amuses me when people try to pretend like they were on the right side all along after they get corrected. Quote:
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Easily? Since where did I say it was easy? Nobody ever finds it easy to throw oneself to almost certain death, but people do it anyway, it’s not something you sit there and think about for 15 minutes, you do it because those people next to you are your fking brothers. It’s why people jump on grenades, it’s why people repeatedly expose themselves to enemy fire to recover wounded men, it’s why people have gone to certain death to save their fellow troops. Before you decide how incredulous the things that the men and women in the military would do for one another based on the ****-all you know about them, maybe you should’ve tried to read the history behind some of those MoH, Army/Navy Cross, Silver/Bronze Stars etc., and then realize that those only represent a tiny fraction of the things that people have done for each other. But I will give you this, not everyone is like that, there are plenty of shitbags in the military as well. A perfect example would be Mr. Deserter right here. Quote:
I value my life just fine thank you, but unlike you I actually understand the fact that mission accomplishment comes first because others are depending on me to do my part, and that more lives can be lost if I don’t. Imagine if people like you were the ones in Normandy, the whole damn invasion fleet would’ve went “LOL NOPE, not doing this! Funny Mustache guy can keep this continent, Peace out!” and turned tailed and ran. People are angry because one, good men died as a result of looking for this shitbag. Second, five senior enemy leaders were given up for this shitbag, all but certain to get back in the fight and likely costing more lives. Third, the shitbag gets treated as a fking hero. It’s rather obvious that you don’t know much about military culture in general, as I don’t think you appreciate just how ignorant and offensive some of the shit you wrote here is. |
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2014-06-04, 07:58 | Link #33942 | ||
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I think a good case can be made that the Pentagon (and/or the White House) would prefer to have flexibility over situations like this, and hence would consider that the easier and better course to maintain, rather than writing a new law. So public backlash is arguably most likely to just result in them making a different choice the next time a situation much like this one arises. I think that this situation probably demonstrates that these sorts of "grey area" situations should be handled on a case-by-case basis. Quote:
I'm certainly no legal expert on this, but I find this hard to believe. I mean, suppose his captives weren't willing to do a prisoner exchange at all. Would the US government then be legally obligated to do a rescue operation regardless of how dangerous that would be to the soldiers carrying it out?
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Last edited by Triple_R; 2014-06-04 at 08:14. |
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2014-06-04, 08:15 | Link #33943 | |
(ノಠ益ಠ)ノ彡┻━┻
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Join Date: Mar 2006
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1. What exactly were the terms being discussed between the US and the Taliban? How did they arrive at this agreement? 2. How much value do the detainees actually have? Are they actually a risk? 3. Why was there so much emphasis on getting this particular POW back? It's noted in several sources that this debate is not new in Washington, and political leaders in both parties were willing to go to extreme lengths for his return. 4. How accurate is the testimony that those men died because of him? Is it simply verbal, or were there investigations into the deaths that implicated him? There's more questions, but these are the kinds of things people should be discussing. Not the end result of him showing up in a press conference with Obama while the media spins up the 24/7 misinformation distraction department while both parties bicker at each other trying to score election points. I mean, I'm pretty sure the erection meter at Fox News is set on "this is like Benghazi after a bottle of Viagra" at the moment.
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2014-06-04, 08:40 | Link #33944 | ||
Meh
Join Date: Feb 2008
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2. Chances are if you have to ask, it’s something you’ll never find out either. For what it’s worth, the 5 detainees were deemed high-risk by the DoD, and frankly, if you’re the Taliban, are you really going to spend your one valuable chip to trade for nobodies? 3. Who knows, personally I think it’s primarily a PR issue, as it looks bad if you don’t at least try to rescue a POW. They may have been able to suppress the fact that he had likely deserted, but they can’t stop the Taliban from reminding people they’re holding an American prisoner. 4. I don’t know how much more clear cut that can be, he deserted, people were sent to look for him, and some died as a result. If he hadn’t left, there would’ve been no search missions to begin with. Quote:
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2014-06-04, 09:28 | Link #33945 |
Kurumada's lost child
Join Date: Nov 2003
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As are all the republicans spinning the news about this rescue, and it is all Just to get the president. How can all of these people be so hypocritical?
Although it is hardly surprising, had a republican president freed this soldier the fox news machine wouldn't be conflating any single problem. These politicians could care less about anyone or anything so long as it benefits them at a political level. It is truly disgusting. The same applies to the NRA and the republicans doing their best to stop smart guns, which could save lives, from taking a foothold in the US market. The conservative machine spins the news by claiming that smart guns are against freedom... etc etc, while the general conservative public just mindlessly agrees to anything that comes out of the chain of spinners. If I could brainwash these people I would make them say a mantra every day they wake up: "I am tolerant. I respect my fellow human beings. I empathize with the fortunes and misfortunes of my neighbors."
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Last edited by Solace; 2014-06-04 at 09:59. Reason: Removed comment. |
2014-06-04, 09:41 | Link #33946 | ||
Meh
Join Date: Feb 2008
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And no, this was not a “rescue”, this was a prisoner swap. Quote:
Last edited by Solace; 2014-06-04 at 09:59. Reason: Removed comment. |
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2014-06-04, 09:45 | Link #33947 | ||||
(ノಠ益ಠ)ノ彡┻━┻
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Join Date: Mar 2006
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But it would be useful to at least know the train of thought.
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I seriously doubt it's a PR problem. I believe they knew what the PR risks were and decided the trade was more valuable than how it looked. Quote:
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Too much tail wagging the dog, unfortunately.
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2014-06-04, 09:55 | Link #33948 |
Kurumada's lost child
Join Date: Nov 2003
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Because, this shouldn't be a big issue. The guy hasn't even arrived at US soil and he hasn't even spoken on his own defense in the first place. A rescue is rescue no matter what your beliefs are. Like I said, this is just political theater.
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Last edited by Sugetsu; 2014-06-04 at 10:11. Reason: Removed comment. |
2014-06-04, 10:22 | Link #33950 | ||||||
Meh
Join Date: Feb 2008
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Well, I wouldn’t hold my breath if I were you.
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Well, reports aren’t story novels, they’re for documenting events that occurred during the mission, nothing more, nothing less. Not to mention there are tons of stuff that simply don’t make it into the written reports. I’m sorry, but coming from personal experience, if one wants to know what actually happened, you go to the rank and file enlisted, few things ever get past the lance corporal underground. The thing that carried the most weight in that whole article was at the end, where the anonymous soldier says they were angry because too often that summer, the purpose of their patrols into dangerous areas was not ordinary wartime work like reconnaissance, maintaining a security presense, or humanitarian projects, but rather “to go look for this guy.” Quote:
More than a few people considers releasing 5 top Taliban commanders a “big issue”, or setting a very public precedent of directly negotiating with terrorists and putting a price on American heads a “big issue”, and for others still, the attempts to treat someone who abandoned his brothers in arms as some sort of hero, a very fking “big issue”. Quote:
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Berdahl, who were directly handed over by enemy forces to our people because we decided to given them back their leaders? That’s not a rescue, it’s a prisoner exchange. It’s just like in a bank robbery or any other hostage situation. When the police go in and take out the bad guys, that’s when you’ll see people say the hostages were rescued. When the hostages were let go in exchange for concessions from the authorities? You won’t see the word rescue used, but rather “release” or “exchange” Last edited by kyp275; 2014-06-04 at 10:45. |
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2014-06-04, 10:39 | Link #33951 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2008
Age: 36
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I wonder what the backlash would have been, if say, Obama refused the deal, and the Taliban started chopping off the guy's limbs and then eventually beheads him. And posts it on Youtube.
I don't think there ever was a "right" or "winning" solution for Obama and his government. I'm also not convinced that those 5 leaders are going to prove to be a problem now after being freed. They may have been dangerous when they were captured, but I believe their value and usefulness deteriorate with the passage of time. |
2014-06-04, 10:49 | Link #33952 |
Kurumada's lost child
Join Date: Nov 2003
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^ Exactly, no matter what Obama does, he is dammed if he does and dammed if he doesn't as the republican strategy since his election has always been, and always will be, to fight him on everything he stands for. Although, Obama has been smart enough to then embrace previously dear republican policies in order to make them look like hypocrites.
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2014-06-04, 11:01 | Link #33953 | |||||
(ノಠ益ಠ)ノ彡┻━┻
Moderator
Join Date: Mar 2006
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I'll make a note of that.
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1. They've been there for an extremely long time. Time changes people, including those you haven't seen in years. 2. There's just as much reason to believe they are a threat as reason to believe that aren't. 3. Releasing them has strategic value for military operations. For example, using them to flush out bigger fish. Quote:
The trade was done knowing the risk of backlash. This means the trade held more value than the risk, or it wouldn't have been done. Quote:
If there are "tons of stuff that simply don't make it into the written reports", that's a problem even outside of this event. But given that even this information had to be leaked to know about it (thanks Manning), I guess you have a point about how information isn't what it seems. As for the anonymous solider, this conflicts with other reports that state that they were focusing on the mission over his search, but that they would investigate information leading to his discovery if they were on a mission. I'm sure there were missions focused just on searching for him. The question is if the deaths were the result of that, or if they coincided with the time frame. Again, anecdotal evidence is not enough to ascribe responsibility. Quote:
You may feel the press conference was an insult. And honestly, I agree. But it's another in a long line of insults to the uniform and the people who serve it dutifully, and at this point getting outraged over it matters less than digging for the truth. Until then it's just a pointless distraction, like wasting commentary on his father's beard making him look like a Taliban: Quote:
Also, Duck Dynasty.
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2014-06-04, 12:42 | Link #33956 | ||||||
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2014-06-04, 13:43 | Link #33957 | |||||||
Meh
Join Date: Feb 2008
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Conversations, emails, mission briefings, etc. aren’t on those reports. It’s not as if the troops get their orders on a piece of paper, a significant amount of information is simply passed on verbally. A proper investigation is going to require correspondence from the higher levels and interviews of those who were actually on the ground, things that article simply do not have access to(and would be extremely worrying if it did). Quote:
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2014-06-04, 14:43 | Link #33959 | ||
I disagree with you all.
Join Date: Dec 2005
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2014-06-04, 14:47 | Link #33960 | |
Not Enough Sleep
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: R'lyeh
Age: 48
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Since he is the one who walk away first how would the US gov be leaving him behind if they negotiate for his release?
someone earlier made a post about people not being stuipd enough to go to afghan as tourist. well.... Quote:
i can't really decide which is more stupid, hiking in Iraq near the Iranian border or going to Afghanistan with pregnant wife as a tourist.
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Last edited by Xellos-_^; 2014-06-04 at 15:00. |
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