2010-08-24, 15:46 | Link #801 | ||
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Any way you slice it, we have a problem. If she knows and didn't set it and is the culprit, she's killing everyone for theatrics when a bomb would do just as well. If she knows and did set it, killing is too risky. If she doesn't know, the story is wrong. There's a way out of that, but it forces us to reconcile either that the bomb can be triggered in another way or the true culprit also has access to the gold room and sets the bomb him or herself every time we reach Oct. 5, but never sooner than that (or it would explode on the 4th/5th instead of the 5th/6th). In most of these cases, Yasu is innocent. Mostly. Quote:
Yet both Rudolf and Kyrie have trouble bringing George and Jessica down with their guns, and Kyrie manages to wing Eva twice. Even if Kanon is trained, if the guns aren't very reliable it isn't going to matter. One prospect, I suppose, is that all the guns are intentionally sighted incorrectly, and Kanon (or Yasu or "the culprit" or whoever you want to pretend it is) has trained himself to use the guns with the misplaced adjustment. But that's barely foreshadowed in any way; Rudolf's complaint is the first time the guns are said to be off-sighted.
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2010-08-24, 15:52 | Link #802 |
Storyteller
Join Date: Aug 2009
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It's been a while since I've read it and I can't check it now but isn't there a window in the garden shed? It was shown in ep4 when Battler found Gohda and Kumasawa's corpses there and at least I don't remember them locking and seeing anything but the main door in ep1.
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2010-08-24, 15:55 | Link #803 | |
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Join Date: Feb 2008
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As for the events in Lyon's world, yes, that could have been a lie, or things could have been different. At this point, it's hard to say. Anyway, as for Dine's 12th... Kyrie was no mastermind. I mean, she definitely was a killer, but none of these things seemed to have been planned by her, she simply went along with the flow of things. As far as the 12th is concerned, this game hasn't really done anything wrong, since, whether she killed people or not, you could still say the mastermind is still Yasu - of course, that's how it'd seem to be now; it may have been someone else.
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2010-08-24, 16:02 | Link #804 | ||
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That rule would have been much to easy to go around. Dine's rules are just a bit too exact and restricting to actually be used in Umineko's context, therefore I'm still reluctant to really want them to count. Quote:
And @Renall: Concerning the bomb business. We have to distinguish between the solution we seek for each individual Episode and that which we seek for THE truth. If we are searching for the truth there are some other things we also have to take into consideration. - There IS an explosion. - Eva survived the incident. - Eva being in Kuwadorian after the incident is only possible if she knew both about the tunnel and the bomb. This means that we also have to take into consideration that in the real truth Eva does get to the Gold Room. So we have to assume that there is a certain truth to Episode 7's Tea Party.
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2010-08-24, 16:04 | Link #805 | ||
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2010-08-24, 16:24 | Link #806 | |
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Plus if the culprit finds out about Kuwadorian, you just ruined everything.
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2010-08-24, 16:36 | Link #807 | |
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Join Date: Aug 2010
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Also I really need to improve my Japanese. I got the entire Kyrie argument wrong. Now with a dictionary in hand, this is easier. I wonder if Ryuukishi did the right thing by bringing Dine into the mix. I have a feeling it wasn't his original plan, and the rules will end up severely underused. He just did it because the Dine rules showing up at some point were probably speculated a lot(I just caught up with the series, so I wouldn't know.) Even as a die hard Golden Age fan, I don't expect all mysteries to follow Dine. It is way too restrictive. But if Ryuukishi really manages to make Umineko appear this flexible despite being bound by Dine chains the whole time, I will have to tip my hat off to him. |
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2010-08-24, 17:02 | Link #808 |
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I kind of wonder if Wright wasn't meant to appear earlier still; there's the whole LIG reference issue, though when he did finally appear he was named WIL in the code. Who, if anyone, LIG was supposed to be is still unknown, but it seems like there was an idea that got discarded at some early point.
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2010-08-24, 17:03 | Link #809 | ||||||||||
Guitar Man
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Brazil
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Just my stupid one week late rambling...
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All in all, the main point of EP7 was to give a contrast to how a far behind event affecte the world of 1986, and say clearly what it was. Quote:
By this moment, after all that drama with Battler+Shannon, Beatrice ('whoever' is playing her role) was already resigned to die if she lost in her own game. Offer guns to dangerous greedy adults by now, is no big deal. She was giving up everything she had anyway. It's just that we are not shown for sure why she didn't care about her life so badly if she lost the game (Or maybe I just didn't notice, which would be no surprise ). The idea of the 'Beatrice' at this scene being just a piece of paper with 'congratulations' written and some written explanations don't seem bad, though Just a quote: ……魔女はベッド脇のテーブルへ歩み寄る。 そこで初めて一同は、テーブルの上に何が置かれていたかに気付いた。 それは、4丁ものライフル銃だった。弾が詰められたケースも置かれている……。 魔女はテーブルの上に転がる鉛弾の一つを指で弄りながら、表情ひとつ変えずに告げた。 「もし。皆さんが碑文の謎を解けずに今夜を終えたなら。……私は碑文に従い、13人を殺す殺人事件を起こす つもりでした。」 Quote:
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My guess is that it was some kind of red herring. Maybe there really was some person there who YASU admired (by the name of shannon or not). The twist was when YASU becomes a 'witch' and abandon 1976-Shannon. It might mean that sempai was just going away. Again. Just my 2 cents. Quote:
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How about: Battler's sin+Battler coming back in 1986 --> Letter proposing the riddle --> Adults trying to solve it -> Find the gold... and so on... Battler's sin would be a requirement. Just a guess, though. Quote:
Didn't know it existed... Quote:
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It was late at night between days 4 and 5. There would still be a whole day until the explosion. At that point in time, they don't know the radio and other means of comunication will fail the next day (I'm supposing it from previous EPs. Maybe in this scenario, the radio won't fail at all). Maybe they don't even know they'll be completely isolated there the next day. Krauss and Natushi died. People will notice their absence the very next morning, for sure. Commotion. People contact the outside, the police. This can't be good. A single contact from Rokkenjima saying things are strange there might cast suspicion on the survivors later on, and spoil the cover of the explosion. Who knows, maybe everybody would be taken to the station to give some explanation that very October 5th (They don't know the conditions of the next day). The plan was to kill everyone before they even know what is happening.
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2010-08-24, 17:23 | Link #810 | |
Back off, I'm a scientist
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: In a badly written story.
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Alternatively, lure everyone into a room, destroy the means to unlock it from inside, lock it from the outside. Make sure there is no phone inside. I mean, come ooon, character who is portrayed as probably the smartest of the lot can't think of that, or numerous other safer ways to get everyone killed? Really?
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2010-08-24, 17:30 | Link #811 |
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That's really the problem. We're told Kyrie is smart; we're even shown she's smart in the Jessica fight in ep6, constructing a closed room to protect herself. And her solution is to shoot people? And not even double-tap Eva (and the others) to make damn sure she's dead?
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2010-08-24, 17:55 | Link #812 | |
Guitar Man
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Brazil
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Didn't think of that But I'll try to save my point anyway But then you'd have to make sure ALL means of communication are destroyed. If there's a secret mansion Kuwadorian, why not a secret radio? One that only Kumasawa or Genji know? Or 'Shannon'... Or Nanjo, too? And what if it is somewhere in the study? Or even in Kuwadorian? Whatever... ---- edit: Not that I think Kyrie's behaviour the most plausible, with that homicide spree. Certainly there might have been other solutions. But killing everybody is an efficient one too! Just a bunch of kids and some scattered servants. If no one notices what is happening with the others, it's an easy task with a shotgun and some skill.
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Last edited by theacefrehley; 2010-08-24 at 20:11. |
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2010-08-24, 20:22 | Link #813 |
Guitar Man
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Brazil
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Just a random thought I had while reading you guys discussing about YASU turning gold into that 1 billion cashcard.
I don't undersand much about legal aspects of the issue, but would it make things easier for YASU if Kinzo's assets and fortune were not legally his. Like, you go check the documentation and stuff and everything is on, for example, Genji's name, instead of Kinzo's? Like some maneuver by Kinzo. (Or maybe Genji is actually pretty rich and is the one solving money issues for YASU , just kidding) Does it make sense with Umineko world? Like the mess that made Krauss hide Kinzo's death (EP5)?
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2010-08-24, 23:39 | Link #814 | |
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Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Floor eh duh?
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I mean,I think that Yasu makes a lot of sense,but that's just it.It just makes sense.That's all it does.Just because it makes sense,doesn't mean it's the all mighty truth,if you're following me. You went quite into depth on how it doesn't make sense,but for you reasons why it does,you just made a list. Could you please explain why you can say those statements with certainty? |
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2010-08-25, 02:50 | Link #815 |
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Join Date: Jul 2010
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I am not going to scour this thread to see if this was linked or not, http://gaslight.mtroyal.ab.ca/vandine.htm
It is simply the 20 wedges of fun unabridged. If we examine the story in this light, and assuming Ryokishi has written in his true culprit in this manner, it is but simple deduction to anounce the killer and the "truth". |
2010-08-25, 05:14 | Link #816 | |
Back off, I'm a scientist
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: In a badly written story.
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Like I explained previously, Japanese inheritance law in 1986 prevents Kinzo from leaving anything to any single specific person, at least 50% will have to be distributed between his immediate children and their spouses if any survive. Letting the law handle the issue will also result in having to pay a 70% tax on the valuation of any property in Kinzo's name, and you have to pay it before you can sell anything. This is impossible to do even if the family finances are in good shape, as it is perfectly normal to have less liquid cash than property -- often, much less. (As a side note, I have a roundabout confirmation that Ryukishi is aware of the legal considerations -- A certain Witch Hunter's interview tape mentions the Marusoo company chairman making the necessary arrangements when it appears he is heading for his death.) Mind you, that doesn't include the metallic gold itself, which actually has to bypass the law entirely for other reasons. So Kinzo has to pull one of a range of legal tricks if he wishes any specific singular person to have everything -- most of them are based on the concept of limited liability holding company which is the actual owner of the property in law, and is in turn owned by Kinzo, because that greatly simplifies the required paperwork, reducing all the various properties that need to be juggled to a single one. The magnitude of legal tricks required will nevertheless greatly increase if Kinzo wishes to leave everything to a single unspecified person who satisfies a certain condition after Kinzo himself is dead. Like solving the epitaph. The most reasonable way to do this involves handing the ownership of the holding company to someone while Kinzo is still alive, while leaving the shares of the company in trust with Kinzo himself so that he keeps the use of them while he is alive. The moment Kinzo dies, ownership reverts to person he is effectively borrowing them from, bypassing inheritance law altogether, and that person can then be required by Kinzo to do as he wishes -- possibly, with a legal contract charging them to do so, though whether such a contract is legal to make in Japan depends on a lot of factors and only a specialist would be able to tell. Which essentially means that at the moment Kinzo's death is registered, someone else owns everything instantly, if he wants to pass his wealth on at all, and if the trust mechanism is in use, that someone else has owned everything well before Kinzo actually died -- Kinzo just had the use of it. This someone can, in theory, be Genji or Kumasawa. However, being the owner of the holding company does not necessarily mean controlling it directly -- in most jurisdictions, the powers of the company owners are limited to directing the policy of the CEO, appointing the CEO and dismissing the CEO, and maybe sitting on the board of directors if one exists, but most of the rest of activities require CEO's personal involvement. And that CEO is almost certainly Krauss, otherwise he simply can't embezzle Kinzo's funds. Which means it's impossible to siphon any money out of Kinzo's legally owned property without asking Krauss to do that, or without replacing him as CEO. Mind you, that does not touch on the issue of gold at all. Gold is not a legally owned property, and would it become one, it would probably go under the laws governing buried treasure. I have so far failed to find the relevant Japanese laws, but my guess would be that when discovered, it would become the property of whoever owns Rokkenjima land itself. It is possible for Beatrice herself to be that executor-owner, and there's red in Ep5 implying that she basically is, if the gold is owned by whoever owns the land according to the law. The first letter also makes far more sense if it is not considered a death threat, but a threat of keeping the entirety of the Ushiromiya properties to herself with gold and all, as she owns it anyway already.
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2010-08-25, 08:22 | Link #817 |
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This is also indirectly supported by the Krauss/Leon setup in that world as depicted in ep7. Krauss has the properties in holding for Leon and what is most likely happening there is that Kinzo is transferring the Ushiromiya holding companies to Leon with Krauss acting as CEO until Leon turns 20. So it's obvious that Kinzo and Krauss are aware of the proper way to manage company asset transfers when a clear head is known.
This also may explain Eva's need to sell Kinzo's books even though she supposedly had the gold (although it's very likely the gold was simply lost to her in the explosion, but if the bank card really exists then it's possible she still had that asset) and was the sole heir; as the heir in estate law terms, she was paying on 70% of everything she and her siblings owned, which also included considerable debts; if the bank card is real, she at least had that to soak the debts, but she'd be selling a lot of the family's property to stay afloat after taxes.
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2010-08-25, 08:48 | Link #818 |
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Join Date: Aug 2010
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Ok, sorry for the abrupt change in subject guys, but I'm curious as to how exactly the Yasu solution satisfies the "Who am I?" riddle at the end of Episode 4.
Thats something that really needs to be cleared in order to be certain of the correct answer, I believe. |
2010-08-25, 09:14 | Link #819 | |
Back off, I'm a scientist
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: In a badly written story.
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As argued previously, Yasu who is both the bomber and the "culprit", that is, the one who commits the observed murders, is highly irrational and very hard to forgive, which Battler nevertheless does. Numerous reasons for Yasu to be the bomber without any intent to kill anyone except the "culprit" exist, as I also listed above. Some of them are actually good reasons.
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