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Old 2012-10-30, 16:22   Link #31041
jjblue1
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Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
In the EP8 battle for the Golden Land, the goats claimed Kanon didn't exist. Jessica argued back pointing out how Kanon appeared and was witnessed at the school festival. She didn't mention anything else.

So it's not written records, nor is it his coworkers' memories which serve as the best objective evidence for Kanon's existence. No, it's a bunch of kids at school who saw him show up to their school festival as "Jessica's boyfriend". That's apparently it.
Well, this isn't really reliable as proof there's no other info about Kanon's existence as the goats also say that Shannon is an illusion and we know there should be written records about her existence as she went to school.
Interesting enough all we get as comeback is that George says he won't let someone bully his friends.

Is even less of a proof than saying that Kanon was seen by Jessica's friends.

So it's either:
- those goats didn't check if there was proof of Kanon & Shannon's existence
- George & Jessica countered with the first thing that came to their mind

Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Here's the thing though: The police believe over a dozen people are dead. They need to track down and talk with a lot of people besides Eva: relatives, servants who weren't on duty that day, people that had seen the victims recently, Kawabata (well they won't need to find him since he reported the event and is probably cooperating), etc.

The police will want an accounting of everybody who was on that island, because they have precious few identifiable remains. Bear in mind it's a private island, so they can't just psychically know who was actually there, and they may find evidence that shows merely that some people were supposed to be there. For example, Ange was probably supposed to be there, but she wasn't, and the police would try to find that out.

Inevitably, they will ask the other servants who was supposed to be on duty for that weekend. The question is, what will those servants say? We can be all but certain that they'd mention Genji and Kumasawa, most of them probably knew Gohda was sure to be there... and... who? Shannon seems to have been Yasu's proper servant face, so they most likely would say she was supposed to have been working that weekend. Would they mention a Kanon at all? There's two scenarios here as I can see it:
  • The servants do mention that a servant named Kanon was supposed to have been working with Shannon that weekend. The police investigate, and find... what, exactly? They're going to ask questions about who knew him well, when he came to the orphanage, when he started working, what his real name is and any documentation that exists about him, whether any known relatives were ever located for him, etc. They might even try to find his parents somehow if they're desperate for leads. None of that is going to turn up, is it?
  • The servants don't mention anybody named Kanon. Just Shannon/Genji/Kumasawa/Gohda, all of whom are people with identifiable lives outside Rokkenjima. This would satisfy police investigation... right up until the message bottles claim there was another servant present. At this point the police go back to their witnesses, who continue to claim they've never heard of anybody named Kanon. The police should probably become immediately suspicious of the message bottles at that point.
But apparently neither of these things happened, or if they did, we know nothing about it other than the claim in ep8 that Kanon doesn't exist... which would rightfully follow from any investigation into him unless Yasu/Genji went to such ridiculous lengths as to forge paperwork for him, and even then there won't be anybody who knows him and perhaps most critically, no school records whatsoever. Yasu/Shannon, remember, goes to school. I presume under her real name. People would know of her and have seen her around at school, even if they didn't know her very well. This would be true of many of the servants, most likely. Kanon would have to live in the same places as Shannon and the other servants and go to school with them (or at least to a school in the area). Nobody at school will have ever heard of him. Nobody at any school would have heard of him.

Again, how would this not set off red flags for the police? As far as they know, there may have been an uneducated, undocumented, mistreated slave boy on the island whose very existence has been wiped out by the explosion. Or else the message bottles are inserting a person who doesn't exist.
Very well written. The only thing that can be said is that I've read in Japan you can choose not to go to high school so Kanon didn't need to go to school at the time of the Rokkenjima incident though he should have gone to school prior to it and there should be records about it so yes, the police should have noticed that there was something definitely suspicious about him...
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Old 2012-10-30, 16:55   Link #31042
Kealym
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Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
Well, this isn't really reliable as proof there's no other info about Kanon's existence as the goats also say that Shannon is an illusion and we know there should be written records about her existence as she went to school.
Interesting enough all we get as comeback is that George says he won't let someone bully his friends.

Is even less of a proof than saying that Kanon was seen by Jessica's friends.

So it's either:
- those goats didn't check if there was proof of Kanon & Shannon's existence
- George & Jessica countered with the first thing that came to their mind
I would disagree. The goats said Kanon was an illusion, made up by Jessica out of loneliness, and she replied that "my friends saw him!"

The goats said Shannon was an illusion, that George was an anti-social shut-in, and that their love was not genuine. Of these points, George only addressed the one about him personally, saying something like "I was anti-social, but I DID have confrontations to help people who were friendly to me", something like that. Quibbles, yes, but to me it seemed again like Ryu just dodging having to answer for something.

For example, goats attack Shannon on the idea that she only approached George for his money (having apparently dropped the accusation that she just didn't exist AT ALL), and her response is "I wrote letters". He attacked again with "You can lie in a letter", and her response to beat him was essentially "Dude, stop being a jerk."

The entire Golden Land battle is like that ... it's like, this weird point in the narrative where yeah, I'm enjoying the epic music and cool fight scene, but it's kind of jarring to see the humans talking entirely out of their Meta-asses to defend themselves. I was SOOOOOO anxious to see if Ghoda would have a moment to shine in there. Alas, I dreamed too big.

To go further, c'mon, not all of the fighting stayed in the abstract. Almost all of the confrontations Erika gets in are just "cool fighting", so, let's not forget Ryu's love of shonen-style funsies. "At least I remember to tie my shoes!", c'mon guys.
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Old 2012-10-30, 18:46   Link #31043
chronotrig
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Originally Posted by Kealym View Post
To go further, c'mon, not all of the fighting stayed in the abstract. Almost all of the confrontations Erika gets in are just "cool fighting", so, let's not forget Ryu's love of shonen-style funsies. "At least I remember to tie my shoes!", c'mon guys.
Well, even Erika's fighting style fits in with her laziness as a writer. If we view both sides as competing authors...

Battler: "I attack with a roundhouse kick to your face. How do you respond?"
Erika: "I...was never there to begin with."
Battler: "............"
Erika: "I was over here."
Battler: "Rosa anticipated that you would try to dodge, so she was able to spot you quickly and fired."
Erika: "I was never there to begin with either."
Battler: "...Seriously?"

...Basically, Erika never anticipates her opponent or sets up plans ahead of time. She just makes a lame excuse afterwards.
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Old 2012-10-30, 21:04   Link #31044
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Inevitably, they will ask the other servants who was supposed to be on duty for that weekend. The question is, what will those servants say? We can be all but certain that they'd mention Genji and Kumasawa, most of them probably knew Gohda was sure to be there... and... who? Shannon seems to have been Yasu's proper servant face, so they most likely would say she was supposed to have been working that weekend. Would they mention a Kanon at all?

Again, how would this not set off red flags for the police? As far as they know, there may have been an uneducated, undocumented, mistreated slave boy on the island whose very existence has been wiped out by the explosion. Or else the message bottles are inserting a person who doesn't exist.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Episode 4
; また、当時の島の状況についても非常に詳しく描写されており、@右代宮家に勤務したことがある元の使用 人たちは、間違いなく内部に詳しい人間が書いたに違いないと証言しました。」\
`Also, it depicted the current situation on the island at the time in great detail,`@` and the former servants who used to work for the Ushiromiya family gave testimony that it had definitely been written by a human who knew the inside details of the island."`\
Whether the servants knew that Kanon was supposed to be on duty that weekend or not, they'd know whether such a person had ostensibly lived on the island or not.
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Old 2012-10-31, 04:01   Link #31045
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Originally Posted by Kealym View Post
The entire Golden Land battle is like that ... it's like, this weird point in the narrative where yeah, I'm enjoying the epic music and cool fight scene, but it's kind of jarring to see the humans talking entirely out of their Meta-asses to defend themselves.
I enjoy it that way. It's basically saying that there's no proof that they were good people, there's still some evidence for it.

The whole point is, again, it's a cat box. The goats were trying to eliminate the concepts of the "good versions" of the people in the box using evidence from outside of the box, but those "good version" concepts were still pretty tenacious. They were difficult to completely destroy because there was still some out-of-the-box evidence here and there testifying to their "goodness".

That was my take on it, anyway.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Here's the thing though: The police believe over a dozen people are dead. They need to track down and talk with a lot of people besides Eva: relatives, servants who weren't on duty that day, people that had seen the victims recently, Kawabata (well they won't need to find him since he reported the event and is probably cooperating), etc.
Honestly, it seems like Kawabata should have a pretty good idea who was and who wasn't on the island, since he's the one who ferried them.

Or did people go to and from the island another way?
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Old 2012-10-31, 09:17   Link #31046
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There would've been people already on the island, and in theory Krauss had a boat of his own. It's possible that someone could've been living there who never left, or who arrived some other time, or who left some other way. Kawabata would be able to tell them everyone he took to or from the island over the past few weeks, but the police can't be absolutely certain that the only people on the islands are the ones Kawabata could account for.

This is especially true if he doesn't ever remember taking Kanon. Actually, Kawabata would be a huge thorn in a Shkanon Prime scenario, as there's no way for Yasu to travel both to and from the island as Shannon and Kanon. She could go as one and come back as the other, but she'd have to then go back as the other or he's going to get suspicious. So for Shkanon-in-reality to work all that well, either Shannon or Kanon (or both of course) would have to be considered on-duty at all times.

EDIT: Oh, and Kawabata happens to know there's a second port on the island which he hasn't been to in many years, so he'd actually be one of the people least certain about whether anyone else could've come or gone from the island without his boat, because he knows there's somewhere else a boat could leave from.
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Old 2012-10-31, 13:54   Link #31047
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That's assuming that Kawabata is the only boatsman the Ushiromiyas ever hired. Sure he seems to be their main guy, but what if he's not available when Jessica needs to go to school?
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Old 2012-11-01, 07:25   Link #31048
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
She could go as one and come back as the other, but she'd have to then go back as the other or he's going to get suspicious. So for Shkanon-in-reality to work all that well, either Shannon or Kanon (or both of course) would have to be considered on-duty at all times.
That's one way to do it, but there's another. She could go to Rokkenjima as one person and leave as the same person, then go as the other and leave as the same person. Basically, it's the reverse, where one would have to be considered off the island at all times.

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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
EDIT: Oh, and Kawabata happens to know there's a second port on the island which he hasn't been to in many years, so he'd actually be one of the people least certain about whether anyone else could've come or gone from the island without his boat, because he knows there's somewhere else a boat could leave from.
Yes, but he also knows that that other port is a secret. If Kawabata supposes that people are using that other port, then he's supposing something funny is going on.

But, well, just the fact that he knows of the other port and had kept it a secret for so many years already means that he'd been bribed or something. Given that, I wonder what he told the police after the incident, and what he might not have.
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Old 2012-11-01, 08:43   Link #31049
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Yes, but he also knows that that other port is a secret. If Kawabata supposes that people are using that other port, then he's supposing something funny is going on.
Not necessarily. He knows it was secret back when he was making trips out to it, but he hasn't really been there in years. It's true that nobody's probably asked him to "drop me off around the back of the island," but he can't be certain that for example Krauss doesn't know about Kuwadorian and keeps a boat there for emergencies or pleasure or something. And as was said, Kawabata might not be the only person the family uses. It's possible Genji sometimes ferries people back when they're sick or something for all that he knows, or another captain is contacted.

Still, if anything, he would probably be the one to find Eva's discovery at the back side of the island curious. He hasn't been there in over a decade. What was she doing there? And why wasn't anybody else there?

Whether he would talk about it is another question. He seemed very reluctant to even bring the subject up to anyone but Ange. But would he talk to police? It'd be hard to say, because Kuwadorian would be public knowledge regardless of whether he talked about it or not. It's possible he just spoke strictly about his work taking people to the main port and left out entirely his 50s and 60s activities. The pressure on him may be what caused him to be so standoffish about it until Ange convinced him of who she was. I don't think he was bribed recently however; maybe back in the 60s by Kinzo, but probably not recently. It's questionable, I think, whether anyone in 1986 other than Genji/Kumasawa (Yasu included; why would Yasu know this?) knew about his activities in the 50s/60s at all.
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Old 2012-11-01, 10:43   Link #31050
Kiltias
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By the way, what's the deal of Ryukishi implying the use of the fairy tale of Hänsel and Gretel in the story?


EG:
Their father was in second marriage with a wife who was a schemer and versions exist where she is
1 - Just their stepmother
2 - Their biological mother

Ange = Gretel

She tried to get rid of the kids so that she and her husband have the money the have for themselves and is implied to be the Witch in the Story as when the Witch died so did their mother.
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Old 2012-11-01, 14:21   Link #31051
RandomAvatarFan
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Quote:
Their father was in second marriage with a wife who was a schemer and versions exist where she is
1 - Just their stepmother
2 - Their biological mother

Ange = Gretel

She tried to get rid of the kids so that she and her husband have the money the have for themselves and is implied to be the Witch in the Story as when the Witch died so did their mother.
Huh... that's interesting. It's funny because at the end of the series, the two theories that are clashing are the Yasu Culprit Theories (To Accept Beatrice) and the Kyrie Culprit Theory (The theory Bern used to attack Ange and Lion)

Taking a risk at sounding like KNM, I wonder if Kyrie Theory was the Theory we were supposed to find.

It's the truth that Eva tried hiding from Ange.
It's the truth that Yasu tried hiding from Battler.

Even still, the motive seems to be even weaker than the Yasutrice theory. But we do have:

Kyrie's and Rudolf's heads were completely smashed in EP1. They could have been anything or anyone. The identity of all victims were guaranteed, but just leaving some bloody clothes around doesn't mean that a body was inside of them.

I may be able to use a Kyrie Culprit Theory for EP2. All it said was "regardless if they were living or dead, six people definitely went through this door." It doesn't say anything about whether or not the six people at the table are dead or alive. Yasu may be an accomplice. Or when Yasu found out that Jessica was killed, and that Battler's parents killed her, Yasu killed her Kanon personality.

However at that time, Yasu still had the master key. But when Beato announced in red during the 4-6 twilights that "there are only 5 master keys" she never said that each servant was holding them. It's possible that Kyrie took "Kanon"'s key and killed George, Gohda, and Shannon.

EP3: Rudolf was the one who "found" the key on Shannon's body. He really had it the whole time.
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Old 2012-11-01, 14:28   Link #31052
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Again though, you run into problems both of motive and MO. Why was Kyrie doing it? And if she was, why did she use the methods she did (methods which appear to be at odds with the LOL SHOOTING SPREE theory presented in ep7)? What did she and Rudolf know about the explosion, if anything? If they didn't know, how did they expect to get away with it? When did this plan come up? Was it before they knew about the witch's game or was it made up on the spot once that factor came into play? What would they have done if it hadn't? Could Kyrie have had any sort of forewarning (the letter from Battler?)?

As always, motive creates the biggest problem. The only beef we know about is her hatred for Asumu, who (1) isn't an Ushiromiya by birth and wasn't when she wronged Kyrie and (2) is long dead. It'd be hard to generalize her desire to kill Asumu to a desire to kill just anyone, especially since Kyrie was almost maddeningly specific in hating Asumu in particular.
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Old 2012-11-01, 15:05   Link #31053
theacefrehley
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I may be able to use a Kyrie Culprit Theory for EP2. All it said was "regardless if they were living or dead, six people definitely went through this door." It doesn't say anything about whether or not the six people at the table are dead or alive..
It is said they were dead when they were found. Check EP4 Tea Party.
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Old 2012-11-01, 15:05   Link #31054
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Seriously don't have time to reply to earlier messages but will whenever I do find it as far as the whole Shkanon stuff is concerned.

Still I wanted to say this : what kind of motives are you looking for? "Parasites made them do it", "they had a really horrible life", "they're nuts and or/melodramatic" or "they are total jerks".

I'm honestly asking, what kind of motive would be satisfying to you all, because I personally cannot see any really satisfying motive within the realm of mystery.
I don't mean acceptable, I mean something that would satisfy most fans and Will's "heart" thing.
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Old 2012-11-01, 15:07   Link #31055
Kiltias
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Well there is alot that can be interpreted from the Tale.

Gretel turned into a servant of the witch while Hänsel was trapped into a cage by her as the witch was cannibalistic.(Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't Beatrice force Rosa to eat the remains of her family?)

Hänsel and Gretel after killing the witch came across a large area of water, unable to cross it until a white duck came along and carried them over.
Another version mentions how it was a white bird that showed them the way home, the same bird that brought them to the witch, while the other birds were eating away the crumbs spread by them to find their way home.
What if those birds refer to the family as in look the emblem.

There is also the mention that the witch had quite the treasures in her house.

"Kinzo told me there are wolves in the forest."
Wilhelm Grimm mentioned in 1856 that there is also a Wolf with the Witch.

The father of the 2 also faked the sound of the knocks he makes when cutting down a tree by binding an branch to a tree in combination with the wind.

Wilhelm also mentioned that the Witch was rather sharp as she was like a Animal in noticing people getting close.

Hans Jörg Uther mentions how the story is a polarization between good and evil supported by opposites.
Parental and Witchhouse.
Mother and Witch.
Seperation and Reunion.
He also mentioned how the children ascend from the dead that was supposed to be their fate but that fate was cast upon the mother/witch.

Quote:
Again though, you run into problems both of motive and MO. Why was Kyrie doing it? And if she was, why did she use the methods she did (methods which appear to be at odds with the LOL SHOOTING SPREE theory presented in ep7)?

What did she and Rudolf know about the explosion, if anything?

If they didn't know, how did they expect to get away with it? When did this plan come up? Was it before they knew about the witch's game or was it made up on the spot once that factor came into play? What would they have done if it hadn't? Could Kyrie have had any sort of forewarning (the letter from Battler?)?

As always, motive creates the biggest problem. The only beef we know about is her hatred for Asumu, who (1) isn't an Ushiromiya by birth and wasn't when she wronged Kyrie and (2) is long dead. It'd be hard to generalize her desire to kill Asumu to a desire to kill just anyone, especially since Kyrie was almost maddeningly specific in hating Asumu in particular.
I seem to remember Kyrie or Rudolf mentioning in EP 7 how the Gold will be theirs.It was after killing Gohda.
Same applies for the tale as money is the reason why they abandonded the kids.

Rest of course is hard to explain, though ever since seeing the tale I'm just saying that Kyrie might be the mastermind.
I point again to her Chessboard logic and the roles of Bishops.
They are called Bishops because during Medieval times they were highly manipulative,setting the norms and laws with their movement pattern symbolizing their snake like movements and actions in addition that Bishops are aka called Hunters.

I'm saying, Kyrie plays a major role somehow having manipulated alot of events and might be THE direct opposer to Yasu in terms of killing.
Yasu started the Witch Game, Kyrie intended to use it for her own advantage.Rudolf being a pawn for her.
Hence how he suspected his death in EP 1.
They DID knew something.

I'm going with:
Kyrie is the true mastermind having manipulated the events or simply used the Witch Game for herself.

Last edited by Kiltias; 2012-11-01 at 15:31.
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Old 2012-11-01, 15:47   Link #31056
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Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
I enjoy it that way. It's basically saying that there's no proof that they were good people, there's still some evidence for it.

The whole point is, again, it's a cat box. The goats were trying to eliminate the concepts of the "good versions" of the people in the box using evidence from outside of the box, but those "good version" concepts were still pretty tenacious. They were difficult to completely destroy because there was still some out-of-the-box evidence here and there testifying to their "goodness".

That was my take on it, anyway.
Mmm, yes, I feel mostly the same, especially since the description of how their guns worked in that final battle seemed to be like, say, "Hey, I was TOTALLY capable of murder! *bam* What, you say I killed my daughter? I loved my daughter, though, just ask the other PTA soccer moms!".

I guess I meant moreso their kind of ... cheerful indifference towards the fact they were exploded to death.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Again, how would this not set off red flags for the police? As far as they know, there may have been an uneducated, undocumented, mistreated slave boy on the island whose very existence has been wiped out by the explosion. Or else the message bottles are inserting a person who doesn't exist.
Sudden flashback to the scene in EP2 where Natsuhi told Shannon she couldn't eat until she'd cleaned ALL the things.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiltias View Post
By the way, what's the deal of Ryukishi implying the use of the fairy tale of Hänsel and Gretel in the story?


EG:
Their father was in second marriage with a wife who was a schemer and versions exist where she is
1 - Just their stepmother
2 - Their biological mother

Ange = Gretel

She tried to get rid of the kids so that she and her husband have the money the have for themselves and is implied to be the Witch in the Story as when the Witch died so did their mother.
Ange is Gretel, the sister who saved her brother from the witch's imprisonment

Quote:
Originally Posted by theacefrehley View Post
It is said they were dead when they were found. Check EP4 Tea Party.
Yup.
The six people were already dead by the time they were discovered!
All were killed by other people!
All six were genuine victims, and did not take part in a mutual murder!
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Old 2012-11-01, 21:28   Link #31057
Kiltias
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kealym View Post


Ange is Gretel, the sister who saved her brother from the witch's imprisonment
Totally ignoring the part that the Witch in the tale is implied as their mother and when the witch died so she?
Seeing that the mother of Hänsel and Gretel is named as their biological but in other version their stepmother, and being displayed as a schemer that is badly out for money to the point of sacrificing the kids is more than enough reason to look into.
Especially when we have several indications of Kyrie being deep in this, question is just how much.
Though I'm not gonna argue about Kyrie being the sole person part for Battler and Maria wearing a Cross making them White,Black and Red which are just by chance the actual colours of Chess Pieces.
Then again it might indicate Kyrie is deeply religious as it also looks a tad like the Christian Flag in addition that her name also refers to God/Lord.

Quote:
The six people were already dead by the time they were discovered!
All were killed by other people!
All six were genuine victims, and did not take part in a mutual murder!
Scuse me, this is probably cause English isn't my mother language but does the second red mean each one of them was killed by someone else than the other?

Last edited by Kiltias; 2012-11-01 at 21:55.
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Old 2012-11-01, 21:33   Link #31058
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Whenever a red like that comes out it usually means that the deaths were homicides and not accidents or suicide.
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Old 2012-11-01, 21:58   Link #31059
Kiltias
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Meh.Perhaps that could have been worded better, looks kinda weird to me.Anyway, thank you.
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Old 2012-11-02, 07:52   Link #31060
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Still I wanted to say this : what kind of motives are you looking for? "Parasites made them do it", "they had a really horrible life", "they're nuts and or/melodramatic" or "they are total jerks".

I'm honestly asking, what kind of motive would be satisfying to you all, because I personally cannot see any really satisfying motive within the realm of mystery.
I don't mean acceptable, I mean something that would satisfy most fans and Will's "heart" thing.
In my view, the only motive that can possibly be used to make the murderer look even slightly sympathetic would be that they genuinely believe that carrying out the ceremony and making everyone believe in the witch WILL lead to everyone being revived in the Golden Land.

I think people would like Yasutrice a lot more if the motive was presented as something like this (as EP4 seemed to be leading to), rather than focusing on her conflicting love for three different people which is really not a motive for mass murder by any stretch of the imagination.
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