[MANGA] Bleach Chapter 428 Discussion

[Fran~]

Originally Posted by Gin

Kubo already explained how she got her powers, and there has been nothing what so ever to indicate that she lost her powers and din't just take her hair pins off. I could swear that Ive explained this to you before.

BTW... Kubo is contradicting himself, he gave 2 versions totally different about Orihime's power.

1. The version of Shun'o (one of the Shun Shun Rikka).
2. Ai-chan's version.

Both are different: Shun'o told Orihime that they were her own Spiritual Power that was awakened from outsides influences, yes, i thought about the Hogyoku, but Shun'o told Orihime that they can be seen by Ichigo because they were born thanks to him (ch43).... Ai-chan was explicit that the source of her power is the Hogyoku (ch 401).

So, is it because Ichigo or the Hogyoku?.

[quigonkenny]

Of course, it could be something very simple that we're ignoring. Ichigo has no more spiritual senses, so maybe we're just seeing what he's seeing. We've yet to see anything spiritual yet. No Afro-san, no hollows, no dead spirits (other than a short scene that clearly and overtly shifted to Karin's POV). It's a little subtle for Kubo, but stranger things have happened...

[Gin]

Originally Posted by Fran~

BTW... Kubo is contradicting himself, he gave 2 versions totally different about Orihime's power.

1. The version of Shun'o (one of the Shun Shun Rikka).
2. Ai-chan's version.

Both are different: Shun'o told Orihime that they were her own Spiritual Power that was awakened from outsides influences, yes, i thought about the Hogyoku, but Shun'o told Orihime that they can be seen by Ichigo because they were born thanks to him (ch43).... Ai-chan was explicit that the source of her power is the Hogyoku (ch 401).

So, is it because Ichigo or the Hogyoku?.

Can't it be both? Ai-chan said that people with twice the reiatsu of a captain can temporarily force the Hogyoku awake. What did Unohana say about Ichigo's reiatsu? I don't think Ichigo's monstrous reiatsu activating the Hogyoku contradicts anything, it just clarifies how Ichigo was able to give his friends super powers just by being near them.

[Alchemist007]

I don't remember the reiatsu part but the 'enormous desire' part I do. And I know that Chad wanted to use his powers to protect and Orihime wanted to be useful.

Originally Posted by Gin

Kubo already explained how she got her powers, and there has been nothing what so ever to indicate that she lost her powers and din't just take her hair pins off. I could swear that Ive explained this to you before.

This ended with you giving up due to it being something like:

Spoiler for graphic?:

In a repetitive fashion.

[Wiggy Fuzz]

Originally Posted by Fran~

BTW... Kubo is contradicting himself, he gave 2 versions totally different about Orihime's power.

1. The version of Shun'o (one of the Shun Shun Rikka).
2. Ai-chan's version.

Both are different: Shun'o told Orihime that they were her own Spiritual Power that was awakened from outsides influences, yes, i thought about the Hogyoku, but Shun'o told Orihime that they can be seen by Ichigo because they were born thanks to him (ch43).... Ai-chan was explicit that the source of her power is the Hogyoku (ch 401).

So, is it because Ichigo or the Hogyoku?.

if it's true that ichigo got his power through the intervention of the hogyoku, then it's technically indirectly involved in orihime gaining her power.

kind of like how one man and his gun may have started the events that lead up to world war one, it was only one thing he did that set the ball rolling for all the future events.

of course, if it turns out ichigo was going to get all this power anyway, regardless of the hgyoku, then there's egg on aizen's face for his lame manga extending monologue about the blasted orb.

[ronin myael]

i think what aizen said about the hougyoku bringing everything together didn't include ichigo gaining shinigami powers. it might have influenced it but it didn't give him that power. ichigo is the son of a shinigami, a powerful one to boot, and from when he was very young he already possessed incredible reiatsu that attracted hollows, he could see ghosts, interact with them, etc. i don't think that's the hougyoku's doing, it merely gave him an opportunity to protect his friends and family, something that he failed to do when his mother was killed by a hollow. he had always blamed himself for that and swore to protect his family from then on. ichigo was born half-shinigami, so when rukia transferred her powers to him it awakened that part of himself. so it might be that the hougyoku brought rukia to him so that he would become a shinigami himself. same thing with chad and inoue. their spiritual powers were weak before ichigo gained his shinigami powers. if i remember correctly, i think it was said that chad and inoue gained their powers from ichigo because he couldn't contain his reiatsu that it oozed into his friends who badly desired to protect him too. correct me if i'm wrong.

as for how ichigo might be able to get his powers back, i'm guessing that it has something to do with the kurosaki family secret. he might need to discover who he really is and where he came from. finding out the truth might be the answer to gaining his powers back. i don't think he lost it though. he is half shinigami, after all. it's merely dormant, i think. it can be awakened again. isshin regained his powers after 16 years but then again maybe he didn't really try to get it back. he was happy being human, he had a wife and kids. but in ichigo's case, there might be a faster solution.

[sayde]

Originally Posted by Fran~

i thought about the Hogyoku, but Shun'o told Orihime that they can be seen by Ichigo because they were born thanks to him

What they state is that Ichigo and those like him can see the Shun Shun Rikka. In other words, anyone with awakened spiritual awareness can see them.

Originally Posted by Fran~

Ai-chan was explicit that the source of her power is the Hogyoku (ch 401).

So, is it because Ichigo or the Hogyoku?.

With regards to Orihime, this is what I think...

When Orihime was told that they were born thanks to Ichigo, it wouldn't be entirely incorrect to consider it a *minor* retcon depending on how you want to look at. Because it wouldn't be very hard to see the Shun Shun Rikka being mistaken on the exact cause of their own creation.

Having no idea what the Hōgyoku was, all they knew was that Ichigo's spiritual energy is the main reason for awakening Orihime's own spiritual energy and thus her own unique ability. Now what the Shun Shun Rikka didn't know (and couldn't have known) was that while Ichigo may have been responsible for awakening Orihime's spiritual energy, it was the Hōgyoku responsible for allowing her awakened energy to manifest itself into what it did. But don't blame them too harshly for their ignorance. Afterall, even Kubo didn't know the Hōgyoku had anything to do with any of this at the time he wrote chapter 43.

So in the end, the Shun Shun Rikka's ability ended up being only half of the explanation. Because without Ichigo, Orihime wouldn't have awakened her spiritual energy. As a result, she would've continued to lack the power needed for the Hōgyoku to act on her desire. And without the Hōgyoku, Orihime wouldn't have had anything to manifest her awakened spiritual energy into the ability known as the shun shun rikka.

So in the end, the Shun Shun Rikka ended up being only half correct behind the cause of their own creation. But in all fairness, Kubo himself definitely didn't know at the time he wrote chapter 43, that there would be a 2nd cause for the Shun Shun Rikka's creation in the form of the Hōgyoku--which is why you may consider it a minor retcon. I say "minor" because nothing has really been contradicted here. The only thing that's changed is an added detail from the way I see it.

[Fran~]

Originally Posted by sayde

What they state is that Ichigo and those like him can see the Shun Shun Rikka. In other words, anyone with awakened spiritual awareness can see them.

And that's because they were born THANKS TO HIM... i'm quoting literally what Kubo Tite wrote back in ch.43

Originally Posted by sayde

With regards to Orihime, this is what I think...

When Orihime was told that they were born thanks to Ichigo, it wouldn't be entirely incorrect to consider it a *minor* retcon depending on how you want to look at. Because it wouldn't be very hard to see the Shun Shun Rikka being mistaken on the exact cause of their own creation.

Having no idea what the Hōgyoku was, all they knew was that Ichigo's spiritual energy is the main reason for awakening Orihime's own spiritual energy and thus her own unique ability. Now what the Shun Shun Rikka didn't know (and couldn't have known) was that while Ichigo may have been responsible for awakening Orihime's spiritual energy, it was the Hōgyoku responsible for allowing her awakened energy to manifest itself into what it did. But don't blame them too harshly for their ignorance. Afterall, even Kubo didn't know the Hōgyoku had anything to do with any of this at the time he wrote chapter 43.

Nah... I don't buy so easily Ai-chan's theory. Because Orihime was far from the Hogyoku. I can buy hollowfication, Rukia's power... even Ichigo's power. Because Urahara, Rukia, Ichigo were near the Hogyoku. Besides, Orihime's power aren't suited for battle.

Ai-chan was wrong, the Hogyoku refused him as its master, Ai-chan failed to understand the Hogyoku, that was the final reason why he lost... so i will not take for granted his explanations about it.

What the Hogyoku is?... i think that even Kubo doesn't know yet what it is

We're skipping something important: there is another theory about the Hogyoku, Ichigo told it to Urahara back in ch422:

was Aizen really rejected by the Hogyoku?...
My dad told me that the hogyoku's power is to realize what's in the heart of those around it...
So if that's true, maybe Aizen lost his powers because that's what he wanted.

After that he explains his theory about Ai-chan's loneliness, basically he desired to be a regular shinigami.

What's odd to me, because Orihime's power are SO CLOSE to the Hogyoku's because as Hachi told her, it's like her hairpins are some kind of Zanpakutou and that her powers are not suited for battle, but if she insists, the way she must fight is focusing in "how she WANTS to do it" not "how to do it"...

So... Orihime's power ¿=? Hogyoku's power...

[maewie]

*sigh*
....The way Bleach is going these days is just tragic. First the wierd aftermath of the defeat of Aizen, then the timeskip..and then this pathetic attempt to revive Bleach back to its origins. Instead, it only show of clearly cut off from continuity Bleach is at the moment.

Fix up your loose ends, Kubo; before venturing to new characters and new loose ends. (especially butlers and maid in victorian costymes, thats Kuroshitsuij, not Bleach)

/rant over Sorry..just disappointed lately

[Kookee2k2]

Originally Posted by Fran~

BTW... Kubo is contradicting himself, he gave 2 versions totally different about Orihime's power.

1. The version of Shun'o (one of the Shun Shun Rikka).
2. Ai-chan's version.

Both are different: Shun'o told Orihime that they were her own Spiritual Power that was awakened from outsides influences, yes, i thought about the Hogyoku, but Shun'o told Orihime that they can be seen by Ichigo because they were born thanks to him (ch43).... Ai-chan was explicit that the source of her power is the Hogyoku (ch 401).

So, is it because Ichigo or the Hogyoku?.

or ichigo is a byproduct of the hogyoku, or something that envolved isshin in wanting to have kids with a mortal woman but was a soul reaper so, hogyoku hax made him temp mortal... n such... yeah. I dont make sense

[Fran~]

Originally Posted by Kookee2k2

or ichigo is a byproduct of the hogyoku, or something that envolved isshin in wanting to have kids with a mortal woman but was a soul reaper so, hogyoku hax made him temp mortal... n such... yeah. I dont make sense

Is Masaki a mortal woman?... i will not take anything for granted.

[secretzfan]

Originally Posted by Fran~

BTW... Kubo is contradicting himself, he gave 2 versions totally different about Orihime's power.

1. The version of Shun'o (one of the Shun Shun Rikka).
2. Ai-chan's version.

Both are different: Shun'o told Orihime that they were her own Spiritual Power that was awakened from outsides influences, yes, i thought about the Hogyoku, but Shun'o told Orihime that they can be seen by Ichigo because they were born thanks to him (ch43).... Ai-chan was explicit that the source of her power is the Hogyoku (ch 401).

So, is it because Ichigo or the Hogyoku?.

That can easily be explained though. If Aizen made her powers he also could have made those fairies says that

[Fran~]

Yeah right

Aizen made nothing about her powers, he didn't know her...

[sayde]

Originally Posted by Fran~

Nah... I don't buy so easily Ai-chan's theory. Because Orihime was far from the Hogyoku.

Except, she wasn't. Orihime came in close proximity with the hogyoku on several occassions prior to obtaining the shun shun rikka just by coming into contact with Rukia. So I'm not sure how you can say she was "far from the hogyoku".

Originally Posted by Fran~

Besides, Orihime's power aren't suited for battle.

I don't see how that's relevant. I know the manga states that she cursed her own powerlessness. But since when did obtaining power necessarily have to mean obtaining an ability suited for battle? The ability to heal, protect, and support others can easily be considered power enough.

[solidguy]

i miss ai-chan

[Fran~]

Originally Posted by sayde

Except, she wasn't. Orihime came in close proximity with the hogyoku on several occassions prior to obtaining the shun shun rikka just by coming into contact with Rukia. So I'm not sure how you can say she was "far from the hogyoku".

Well, that's why i say that Kubo is in a mess now... because hogyoku's power can be the solution to everything. If the Hogyoku grants wishes, why nobody asks him to stop Ai-chan's madness?.

Isshin was near Rukia, he got his powers back... ok... granted
Keigo and Tatsuki were next to Rukia and Ichigo almost the same time that Orihime and they got nothing... and they were at the edge of death. Tatsuki knows Ichigo for far more time than Orihime... a girl who can really kick your butt got nothing from the Hogyoku?...

That's Kubo's logic?.

I remember how a lot of people fear this back then when Kubo wrote that Orihime's powers weren't healing powers, but powers that reject events. Now he made the same mistake: The Hogyoku grants wishes, but not for everybody, just the ones Kubo wants to.

Originally Posted by sayde

I don't see how that's relevant. I know the manga states that she cursed her own powerlessness. But since when did obtaining power necessarily have to mean obtaining an ability suited for battle? The ability to heal, protect, and support others can easily be considered power enough.

Blame Kubo, i was quoting him, that's what Hachi told Orihime after healing Tsubaki. Again, Orihime's power aren't about healing... she rejects events!.

This is not a problem of characters, the problem is how Kubo was inconsistent with the events. Why Orihime got powers and not Tatsuki?.

[secretzfan]

Originally Posted by Fran~

Yeah right

Aizen made nothing about her powers, he didn't know her...

Aizen: Who said that?? I could have know about her from the beginning after all I was the one who brought her to you people and now you all hate her just as planned

[sayde]

Originally Posted by Fran~

Well, that's why i say that Kubo is in a mess now... because hogyoku's power can be the solution to everything. If the Hogyoku grants wishes, why nobody asks him to stop Ai-chan's madness?.

In the process of trying to come up with a dozen different plot holes related to the hogyoku, did you forget that the Hogyoku can only manifest the desires of people who already have the power within them to make it happen?

So no, wishing Aizen dead or wishing he be stopped wasn't going to make the hogyoku magically kill him or give anyone a magic strength boost to do the job. Yamamoto was the only person who had the strength necessary to pull that off. Unfortunately, by the time he learned of Aizens betrayal and was able to be somewhat near the Hogyoku, he had no desire to stop him since he already thought they did (until the Negacion came down to save him). And by that point, the Hogyoku wouldn't have been able to act on Yamamoto's desire to stop Aizen because he didn't have the power needed to break through the negacion. It's also safe to assume that by the time Aizen obtained the Hogyoku and merged with it, the orb stopped granting wishes to anyone but him.

Originally Posted by Fran~

Isshin was near Rukia, he got his powers back... ok... granted

Why are you implying that the hogyoku was the reason Isshin was able to get his powers back when we've no idea exactly how that's happened at this point?

Originally Posted by Fran~

Keigo and Tatsuki were next to Rukia and Ichigo almost the same time that Orihime and they got nothing... and they were at the edge of death.

Keigo and Tatsuki apparently never had as deep of a desire to gain strength as Orihime and Chad did. Besides, once again, the Hogyoku can only act on desires and wishes if the person in question has the power to make it happen. So the hogyoku was able to act on Orihime's behalf because Ichigo had awakened her latent spiritual energy enough. The same can't be said for Keigo and Tatsuki, who didn't awaken their spiritual energy and awareness as quickly as Orihime did and who arguably never "cursed their own powerlessness from the bottom of their hearts".

Originally Posted by Fran~

Tatsuki knows Ichigo for far more time than Orihime... a girl who can really kick your butt got nothing from the Hogyoku?...

That's Kubo's logic?.

Yes. Tatsuki already knew how to "kick your butt". So why would she constantly habor such insecurities and desires for more strength when she probably already felt quite capable of having the power needed to protect her friends whenever she was around Rukia (and the hogyoku)? Besides, the one time she might've felt that way around Rukia was the same time she got KO'd and mind wiped. So if she ever did have any genuine desire to acquire spiritual power while Rukia was around, it's doubtful for the Hogyoku to have acted on her wish in that state. Especially when she didn't start developing spiritual awareness till after that event.

Same goes for Keigo. I can't recall him in a situation where he'd have a deep and strong desire to gain spiritual power during the moments where Rukia and the Hogyoku were around nor do I see him always feeling like that. I also don't think he awakened his own spiritual awareness enough in time for the Hogyoku to do anything for him.

Originally Posted by Fran~

I remember how a lot of people fear this back then when Kubo wrote that Orihime's powers weren't healing powers, but powers that reject events. Now he made the same mistake: The Hogyoku grants wishes, but not for everybody, just the ones Kubo wants to.

True. At the end of the day, Kubo does have ultimate control over the matter. But still, I don't think it's very hard to make sense of this within the context of the story. The problem you can't see passed is the fact that there exist 3 requirements that had to have been met for the Hogyouku to have granted anyone of Ichigo's friends special abilities.

1.) They had to have a passionate and strong desire for spiritual power. And that would only happen to those around Ichigo who were capable of witnessing spiritual phenomena and able to realize that the power they desired was one that would allow them to stand up to spiritual forces.
2.) They had to have awakened their own spiritual energy enough for the Hogyoku to manifest their powers into a spiritual ability
3.) The above 2 conditions had to have been met at a time when Rukia was close by.

So Keigo and Tatsuki don't qualify.

Originally Posted by Fran~

Blame Kubo, i was quoting him, that's what Hachi told Orihime after healing Tsubaki.

Once again, I just don't see how this is relevant. Hachi revealing to Orihime that her abilities aren't suited for battle wouldn't change the fact that the Hogyoku did indeed grant her power--just not in the form of a powerful offensive ability. It still doesn't make her powerless or contradict what Aizen said.

Originally Posted by Fran~

Again, Orihime's power aren't about healing... she rejects events!.

You definitely don't have to remind me of that. When I stated that she obtained the ability to heal, protect, and support others, I was implying that this is what she uses her powers of rejection for primarily.

Originally Posted by Fran~

This is not a problem of characters, the problem is how Kubo was inconsistent with the events. Why Orihime got powers and not Tatsuki?.

Based on the things I stated above, I'm not seeing the inconsistencies.

[Mr. DJ]

Originally Posted by Gin

Can't it be both? Ai-chan said that people with twice the reiatsu of a captain can temporarily force the Hogyoku awake. What did Unohana say about Ichigo's reiatsu? I don't think Ichigo's monstrous reiatsu activating the Hogyoku contradicts anything, it just clarifies how Ichigo was able to give his friends super powers just by being near them.

I'm pretty sure it can be both, there is always the added plot line later "do you know the truth behind your birth?"

[secretzfan]

Originally Posted by quigonkenny

Dude, Tite doesn't have to. I can explain how she took off her hairpins. It's a little difficult to follow, though, and might be a spoiler.

Spoiler for hairpins:

Orihime: "Guys, I feel like I need to take off my hairpins. I see you guys without your special power items all the time. How do you do it?"
Chad: *looks down at his bandaged arms* "I have to bodily rip them off my arms each time. It hurt a lot at first, but after the top 6 lavers of my skin stopped growing back, it just itches more than anything."
Ishida: "I store my bow up my ass. It's an ancient Quincy tradition my grandfather spent many years teaching me."
Ichigo: "I was the same as Ishida, minus the Quincy/grampa thing... That's why I got into so many fewer fights in school when I was a Shinigami. Having a 5-foot sword up the ass really messes with your mobility."
Tatsuki: "I don't know about special powers items, but maybe you should just try to remove them like normal hairpins, and see how that goes."
Ichigo: "Tatsuki, you dumbass... You sure don't know about special power items. No way it's that painless. She's probably gonna bleed like a fountain from her temples until she puts them back on, if it doesn't kill her instantly."
Ishida: "I find the latter quite impossibly incongruent with your powers, since they remove themselves as part of your ability. You might as well try it, though. You never know until you try."
Chad: "I'll have some bandages ready for you."
Orihime: "You reall think this might work, Tatsuki? Well, I'll try..." *nervously reaches up to her hairline and slowly...carefully...removes the hairpins, putting them in her purse* "Huh... That wasn't as difficult as I thought it would be..."
Chad: "...Lucky bitch..."

A scene like that should have been shown then otherwise it is just bad writing.

In fact there is some other stuff weird about Kubo latley and his art
He didn't draw Grimmjow with his hollow mask in the latest chapter

*EVERYBODY GETS QUIET!!!*