2012-09-02, 09:43 | Link #30321 |
Human
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Crime Scene
|
If we're going to a "The meaning of a Name" discussion, let me plug this out of my chest.
I was watching Beelzebub, and seeing something about a girls vs boys quarrell. The words were repeated enough times for me to catch that danshi=boys and Yoshi=girls. When Kanon tells Jessica his real name in his last moments (don't remember what EP), he says that his name is "Yo...shi...da". Now, I'm NO EXPERT in Japanese, but hearing it so much has given me the idea that "da" is like "I'm". Like in Persona 4 "Kuma-da" means "I'm a bear". So Kanon was saying 'Yoshi da'. In other words, 'I'm a woman'! And Jessica went mad and died. XDDD This is proof #XXXX that Yasu is originally a girl. Lion gender is revealed! No, really. If we're talking about meaningful names, THIS is the one to talk about. You see? Trying to suppose something based on a name ends in something like 'that'. But... not sure if 'that' made too much sense or I'm starting to believe my own bullshit. Extra: Rose symbolism? U serious? So maybe Ryuukishi knows that a red rose means passional love. That explains Rosa's outbusts, Yasu's golden land being full of them, the motive of the crimes, the single minded .... nah, holly shit, he's serious. Well, everyone can be a troll, you see. It depends on how well you can BS you way around the line of hated troll and 'kinda makes sense' troll. That's why no-one is telling him to shut his trap. Other edit: I re-read my post and realized that it came out wrong. I seriously believe that all that name thing and rose symbolism is BS... It's hard when you can't use properly a language -_-U
__________________
Last edited by Patchwork Chimera; 2012-09-02 at 10:02. |
2012-09-02, 09:54 | Link #30322 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2011
|
Ep 8 Chap 7 is out but the only relevant part about the tricks I could make out watching the pictures is that Shannon and Kanon knows very well how to trick others into believing they're dead with a hole in their chest... which doesn't really come as a surprise for anyone. Funny how to show they're faking Ange merely tickles them... Oh Battler, if only you thought to tickle corpses...
I think there might be the explanation about how to murder someone in a room closed by a chain... but I can be wrong though or it can be one we've already guessed how it worked. For who's interested in how the plot is developing as it's different from EP 8 Spoiler for Spoilers for Ep 8 chap 7:
Last edited by jjblue1; 2012-10-16 at 16:39. |
2012-09-02, 10:40 | Link #30325 | ||||
Goat
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Gnawing away at Rokkenjima
|
Quote:
Although, I must admit I didn't buy ShKanon until it was forced down my throat in EP6. It just seemed too far-fetched my first time through. Needless to say, I've warmed to it since. Quote:
Since you seem to expressing honest confusion now, I'll explain: You don't know what it means for logic to be "valid". I realize you were intending it by it's general meaning, but it's actually a formal term regarding logical inferences. I'll just give some examples: Spoiler for so as not to take up space for those who don't give a shit:
Quote:
Quote:
And in KnownNoMore's defense about the Rose thing, even he said it wasn't exactly a very compelling clue, just something he noticed. |
||||
2012-09-02, 10:51 | Link #30326 | |
"Senior" "Member"
Join Date: Jan 2012
|
Quote:
There is a huge difference between KnownNoMore's "Rose Symbolism" and the meaning of "Ikuko". Using roses as a hint would be a device for the story that has nothing to do with the story itself and is just adressed at the reader. The meaning of "Ikuko" is a whole different matter. In the Ikuko=Yasu theory, at some point Yasu would have to come up with a name for herself: "Hmmm, how should I name myself?" This is something that the character had to do herself. She chose the name herself. In the context of Ikuko=Yasu, it has a direct relation to the story. This is less of an "asspull" than the Ikuko=RandomStranger version which basicly claims: "yea.... so her parents used the name 'many children' for her... and that seeming to be a parallel to Yasu? Meh just a coincidence".
__________________
|
|
2012-09-02, 10:56 | Link #30327 |
Human
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Crime Scene
|
@wanderer: I was trying to make an example of the fragile nature of some affirmation made by someone who believes that everything must have a hidden meaning and how it's all better if that someone twists the inconveniences to make their reasoning fit some parameter. I actually don't know sh^t about japanese, but the logic sounded cool so why not? That's what's been happening over here anyway.
So Joshi sounds exactly like Yoshi, eh, what? Troll logic still valid. Because, as your example with the bible, I freaking said so. And, as your example with the bible, you acknowledge things like that. That's not how a debate works, dude, and no matter how many circular logic you use to try justifying, it doesn't make it any less logical fallacy that it was before. Nobody here is eating it. Now I'm not saying that you're a troll and everything you say is BS, in fact you bring some good points, but at least give it a rest about what is and is not logic. -- About Ikuko to GreyZone: Try and ask Rudolf where the hell Battler came from. Did he know he was going to be trapped in an endless fight with a witch? How about Maria? She took your point of view about names and ended believing herself to be daughter of the holy spirit. That's a precedent about what overthinking a character's name does to one...
__________________
Last edited by Patchwork Chimera; 2012-09-02 at 11:54. |
2012-09-02, 11:52 | Link #30328 | |||||
Detective, Witch, Pirate.
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Ruins of the Golden Land
|
Quote:
Quote:
One thing is sure: The duel wouldn't have come to a conclusive result yet, so her choice might have been a vastly different one. Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Or maybe it is. Maybe Ryukishi07 chose that name because Ikuko continues Yasu's tale by writing forgeries. That seems like a more natural conclusion that : "SHIT! Her name's meaning is kinda tracing back to her, they're the same person!". Reasoning of that level would be like saying "Shannon and Kanon have to be the same person! They look awfully similar and their names sound almost the same!". You see? It doesn't really work this way, does it? That's what I mean when saying 'evidence'. The same point could have a vastly different effect if it was soemthing like "Shannon and Kanon have to be the same person! They're never seen together by anyone except servants who have an unreliable perspective!". Obviously we understand which of the two "proves" the point.
__________________
|
|||||
2012-09-02, 11:53 | Link #30329 | |
"Senior" "Member"
Join Date: Jan 2012
|
I just realized something:
Ushiromiya Battler is Ushiromiya Asumu's son.This refers to Asumu's stillborn child. It could also make sure that "Battler" can die, but because it only refers to the stillborn child, he can still be alive. The same way, "Beatrice" can be dead. You can even Pick from 2 generations in this case. Quote:
__________________
Last edited by GreyZone; 2012-09-02 at 15:30. Reason: Some corrections... |
|
2012-09-02, 12:05 | Link #30330 | ||
Human
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Crime Scene
|
Quote:
So, Battler's mom is Asumu's son. Asumu is the grandmother of a transgender mother of Battler? Wait, my english is that bad? Where did that thing came from? Am I misunderstanding it? Quote:
Then we have how Ikuko didn't know Tohya was Battler still later. Wouldn't Yasu recognize her dream man if she found him in the street?
__________________
|
||
2012-09-02, 12:08 | Link #30331 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2011
|
Quote:
Same for Maria. Or Rudolf who plays playboy like Rodolfo Valentino. With Ange likely they wanted to use the quote that she can look like an Angel and Eva might be Eva because she's the first female while Rosa gets the name because the sentence 'Maria's Rose' get a more interesting meaning. And there are many other chara who have a name because that name works for the setting they're in (though I don't know if them all can work). It's rather common really in anime and manga to have a character being given a name by his author because the name will fit with how the character is or what he will do and that's why in some series the English character page carefully report the translations of names and surnames as something meaningful. Of course the parents of said characters had no idea of all this. It's the author that uses the names as Easter eggs. So yes, it makes sense to wonder if, when Ryukishi choses Ikuko as the name for the person saving Battler, he was thinking at it as a hint for Ikuko's true identity or if he just chosed it as a red herring. Honestly I doubt he chose it at random, though the WHY he chose it is up to personal interpretation. For all we know Yasu might not be the real kid of Beatrice 2 but she could have persuaded herself she is, while the real kid would be Ikuko... sort of like Battler isn't Asumu's kid but he thought so. And no, I don't believe in this. It's just another example on how much we can stretch reasoning since the boundaries aren't that binding. It is. I was honestly very wary of it but so far I'm loving it. That's exactly how I wanted the visual novel to be. |
|
2012-09-02, 12:50 | Link #30333 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2011
|
Yes, I don't believe it to be true either, after all Yasu complained in red about being saved and receiving a horrible wound... though she didn't say when or how she received it so we can force a blue truth that says she wasn't talking about that specific fall from the cliff... or that Genji and Co lied to her to get her to play a role in her little mummery and she reacted badly... again, not that I believe in any of this, it's just funny to work out solutions... but yes, if it were to be true it would be... interesting...
|
2012-09-02, 14:10 | Link #30335 | ||||
The True Culprit
|
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
"Battler is alive and he's an amnesiac writing stories" is not the premise; I mean, shit, it's lateness aside it's really only relevant to Ange's subplot and to point out that, yes, there is another survivor, hurray. It's basically the ending.
__________________
|
||||
2012-09-02, 14:51 | Link #30336 | |
Human
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Crime Scene
|
Quote:
"The real Beatrice III died before being born, and you are a random fukuin orphan that has a terrible injury in a vague part of your body. All that angst, all that pain and the deaths of all the family... did you know, Yasu? You are not even Beatrice's daughter. *Cackle cackle*" "I am-- I am... Kinzo's ughr.. Beatrice's daughter... no! It can't be!" "Now you know what Battler felt! You are not an Ushiromiya! Kyahahahahaa!" And all the witches laughed like mad. Then, as anything family related in the gameboard, Yasu would realize that who her father was is of no consquence... because she is already dead and the angst about her parents wasn't as problematic as the messy lovelife she had. It actually was a good thing, since now she wasn't into some incestuous shit with her supposed family. And that, the not-incest thing, is what makes it a golden truth in my head. Long life Non-Ushiromiya Yasu! And yeah, maybe IRL all that coincidence about names would be crazy, but in his work it might have a meaning. Doesn't mean that the meaning is something that can be decided just because it sounds pretty. Maybe Ryuu was thiking about reindeers when he named Rudolf, who knows?
__________________
Last edited by Patchwork Chimera; 2012-09-02 at 15:04. |
|
2012-09-02, 14:55 | Link #30337 | ||
"Senior" "Member"
Join Date: Jan 2012
|
Quote:
but at the same time I wanted to write "Ushiromiya Asumu is Ushiromiya Battler's mother".... and then... well i mixed them up xD Quote:
My problem is, if we take everything with Ikuko=RandomStranger, it would play out like that: "Boom, Rokkenjima exploded, only survivors: Eva, Battler. Eva waits in Kuwardorion and is found later, while Battler escaped by boat. He reaches land looks for some kind of civilization and then just randomly gets hit by a car and gets amnesia. Then 'coincidently' the driver of that car, instead of calling the police and ambulance, just 'finds him cute and wants to take him home' and actually does just that. Then she creates a new identity for Battler and makes money from his Rokkenjima forgeries". Well and a Ikuko=Yasuda scenario as i see it (there could be other possible versions of this theory) could go like that: "In Rokkenjima Battler got injured after Eva escaped for Kuwadorian, Yasu took Battler to the boat. Then they escaped to the house she has secretly ordered to be built in the last 2 years. There she realizes that Battler has amnesia. At first she tries to make him remember, but soon gets confronted with the fact that every attempt to make him remember gives him huge headaches. She creates a new identity for herself and for Battler (Battler and Beatrice 'die'), lets him be checked secretly by a surgeon and gets to know about the brain injury. Following that Ikuko makes the decision to make Battler forget about the incident by lying to him and telling him fake stories (the ones we see in EP8). After Tohya stabilizes, she tries to make him remember by using the forgeries, so she suggests to him to do a "roleplaying" of the rokkenjima incident under the excuse that she needs it as inspiration for her own writing (Meta scenes). First she uses the 2 message bottles, that she threw into the sea shortly before, or after the incident, after they were made public. Then she writes banquet. After the "roleplaying", she published it and is surprised that it became a 'best seller'. Then she wrote Alliance and End (while End was based on a witch hunter forgery). After End Tohya remembered what happened at the incident, but it was not subtle enough and Tohya's brain injury became a big problem which led to the operation, which paralyzed his legs. But because Tohya remembered the past, he also realized that Ikuko is Yasu and finally understands her. But instead of telling it to Ikuko outright, he decided to tell her by making his own forgery which he calls Dawn. As I think, neither Ikuko nor Tohya have anything to do with the creation of Requiem and Twilight. Later, to not confuse Yukari too much, they decide to hide the fact that Ikuko is Yasu." Well I think this scenario can still be polished a lot, but this is the general direction in which I interpreted what happened after the Rokkenjima incident.
__________________
|
||
2012-09-02, 16:11 | Link #30338 | |||
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2011
|
Quote:
Quote:
You hear the name Rudolf, hear how his character is and connect him to Rodolfo Valentino pretty easily. Now yes, it could be a coincidence if it wasn't for the fact that in Umineko there's plenty of them and some of them are really pretty obvious. Ryukishi knows readers, expecially Japanese ones who're more used to this and can easier find the connections, are going to catch up on this. Chosing a name that, for them, has a rather obvious meaning and that can be used to make a certain connection has to have a purpose. It's either a hint or a red herring otherwise he would have picked up one who really meant nothing or, even better, Ikuko would have ended up nameless and meaningless. It's different for us. Most of the western names doesn't have an obvious meaning so, if we've to write a tale, often we end up chosing them because they're cute and if we call the prince... let's say, Gilbert, it's because we like the sound of it, not because of its meaning (noble youth) but it's hard to think that Ryukishi would chose Ikuko at random without even figuring that his readers might wonder what he was trying to say with that name with that meaning. Quote:
But yes, car put aside, the whole a random stranger pick him up as if he was an abandoned kitten and hides and take care of him feels forced. If that's the truth it's a bad plot twist. |
|||
2012-09-02, 17:51 | Link #30339 | |||
Goat
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Gnawing away at Rokkenjima
|
Quote:
Quote:
And I don't acknowledge what Biblical apologists say about the veracity of the Bible. What I acknowledge is that I cannot prove to them that the Bible is false if they assume by definition that it isn't. Basically, it means trying to prove the Bible is wrong to people like that is a waste of time. Quote:
I get it. Touya is Kenta-Kun. |
|||
2012-09-02, 19:19 | Link #30340 | |||
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2010
|
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Also, it's Tohya who creates his new identity, since he's apparently incapable of "being" Battler ever again. Ikuko just named him I would also mention that your Ikuko=Yasu scenario still pretty much amounts to an amnesiac Battler being kidnapped and used as a creative cash cow. And is counter to how we're told that he actually was highly against ever getting that operation. Also, I think people put too much stock in the fact that Yukari described Ikuko as feeling very youthful and un-aging. After all, she was ALSO described as "far older than me", and Yukari is at least 38 when they meet. Hell, in 1986, Ikuko had that extreme little reaction to thinking Battler saying she looked 18. I don't find it hard to think she just aged really well ("it wasn't because she was good with makeup or dressed like a younger woman") and had a certain jubilance you mught not expect from a woman her age. |
|||
|
|