2009-10-14, 20:53 | Link #1 |
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Anime Suki's Spoiler Policy
I wanted to provide some feedback on Anime Suki's Spoiler Policy.
For the most part, I feel that the Spoiler Policy is very well-structured. I certainly see its rationale as it pertains to anime episodes, which are typically watched in, near, or shortly after, "real time" - hence drawing in fans and thread commentators that aren't necessarily fans of the source material. However, as it pertains to upcoming anime movies to be shown in theaters, and based on particular manga sections, or novel source material... My view here is that these discussions tend to naturally attract people who are fans of the source material being turned into the anime movie. In other words, there's already familiarity with the source material there for thread commentators. These discussions aren't likely to attract anime-only fans since the actual content of these movies won't be available for several months... as with live-action movies that are adaptations of, say, a popular cartoon series (Transformers, for example), the only people that'll be talking about the movie several months in advance are folks that are actually already fans of the cartoon/of the source material. Likewise, the same, I think, pretty much holds true for discussions on upcoming anime movies. So... I would argue that perhaps Anime Suki's Spoiler Policy should be edited to include a special exception for Movie Threads. It really has been my experience that these threads attract very few, if any, anime-only fans. While it would probably be a good idea to still insist upon using spoiler tags in these threads for the benefit of the few anime-only fans that may decide to check out the thread, I don't think that any more than this is necessary. Anyway, in the interest of full disclosure, I'm writing this post largely in response to recent moderator actions taken concerning the Haruhi Suzumiya forum's The Movie of the Disappearance of Haruhi Suzumiya thread. While these moderator actions are, of course, perfectly consistent with the Spoiler Policy itself, it does, for me, raise issues with the policy itself. Simply put, I believe that this Disappearance thread would be best served as the catch-all thread for Novel 4 discussion, particularly since Novel 4 discussion is likely going to be very dominant on the Haurhi subform for the next few months, and precisely because a movie of it is coming out. While I understand the admirable principles behind the Spoiler Policy of this site, I think that some... pragmatic alterations, perhaps... should be made to that policy to ensure that this forum is as strong and dynamic and conducive a place for healthy discussion as it can be (and that 'can be' has a lot of potential, frequently realized, to AS' credit). I fear that having Novel 4 discussions spread out between a few different Haruhi subforum threads (each arguably being a decent place for such discussions) will lead to disjointed Novel 4 discussion that would best be served as discussion all on one thread. The best thread for that purpose is, in my view, the Movie of the Disappearance of Haruhi Suzumiya thread. Anyway, that's just my take. Thanks for taking the time to read and consider it.
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2009-10-14, 21:44 | Link #2 |
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I think that I could make a pretty good case that this particular exception, were it approved, is not so far removed in principle from allowing people to discuss what is going to come in a full anime series before it airs. What makes a movie so special that it should be treated as a distinct case? After all, before an anime series airs, the people who will be most interested in the show and have the most to say are those who are already familiar with the source material. To say, "well it's a full series, so take your spoilers elsewhere" on the one hand, and also "well, it's a movie, so in this case spoilers are okay" seems... well, inconsistent. And I always prefer consistency unless there's simply no way around it.
In terms of the proposed exception, I don't really agree that these threads attract few or even fewer anime-only fans. It's simply that the anime-only fans do not have much to say at that point in time (other than "Are we there yet?"). They will, however, be interested in checking the thread regularly to see if any new news has been released about the movie -- for example, a release date, or a trailer, or any news from the staff. This is aside from spoilerific discussion of what will be contained within the movie, which many may prefer to keep a surprise. I think the idea of keeping the thread there for any legitimate production news and related discussion but without the end-game spoilers has some merit, and it is a bit more consistent with the traditional policy. For this specific case, given the amount of folk familiar with the source material, I would prefer for us to consider a specific spoiler thread for the movie, where those familiar with the novels can speculate in particular about the movie and its contents. I say that although I'm still not entirely convinced that the existing threads aren't good enough. (Why is this so different from normal anime spoiler speculation that it needs to be kept distinct? Is it really better to keep it distinct? What if people want to speculate beyond the scope of the topic, as seems to often happen for this series?) But I would certainly prefer a new thread be created for this specific group of fans, then to make a broad exception that seems to open the door to a complete redefinition of what a "spoiler" is on these boards (which, frankly, would take some time to work through, and by then the movie might be over!). Anyway, not sure if any other mods or admins will have their own thoughts or comments to add as well. Certainly all feedback is welcome. |
2009-10-14, 22:55 | Link #3 |
Obey the Darkly Cute ...
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I'd say that the "experienced viewer" threads (spoilerific) used to cover source-adaptation comparisons and other discussion are the best workaround for the whole problem.
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2009-10-15, 12:20 | Link #4 |
Hina is my goddess
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I've mentioned before that threads made before the release (all these "speculations and expectations" threads) will be filled with either spoilers, "zomg i can't wait for this!!!" post, or random theories that make no sense and nobody really bothers to read because everyone has their own theories. Guess which of these would likely generate the most meaningful conversation, and which is not allowed. No real meaningful discussions can be had if people can't even discuss the plot under spoilers.
But this isn't the first complaint i made about the spoiler rules. |
2009-10-15, 14:05 | Link #5 | |
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And to be clear, it's not that the discussion isn't allowed, it simply isn't allowed in that particular thread (according to the policy we have now). Also... I think that everyone admits that the Spoiler Policy isn't perfect, but that's because it attempts to be a compromise that covers a wide range of opinions about spoilers. There's just no way we can please everyone. So, in an attempt to have some sort of logic, we adopted the "on-topic" based system. For all the occasional kinks, it seems to generally serve the purpose. You have to remember that part of this was in response to the way spoiler tags used to be used before this current policy, where you might have pages upon pages of nothing but spoiler-tagged discussion, even if the source material had never been translated into English, and some felt that was inappropriate for a English community. (I remember being part of some of these long spoiler-filled discussions myself back when they were allowed.) So it's sort of like... no matter what you do, people will complain. It may be that the best you can hope for is a sort of happy medium where most can live with it, even if they don't think it's all that great. |
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2009-10-15, 16:57 | Link #6 | |
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I don't have hard and fast poll data, of course, but the impression I get from Haruhi's fan community here on AS, at least, is that the vast majority are familiar with Novel 4 and would like to be able to talk about it in the Movie of The Disappearance of Haruhi Suzumiya thread. If English translations of Novel 4 weren't available, I could understand strict refusals of novel discussions in the Movie thread, but given that they are translated into English...
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2009-10-15, 19:46 | Link #7 | ||
AniMexican!
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2009-10-15, 20:04 | Link #8 | |
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Regarding numbers... I could be wrong, but I'm inclined to think that it's simply that the difference between the level of participation of the novel-reading crowd (hardcore fan?) and the anime-only crowd (maybe casual fan?) is so enormous. Many novel readers can write essays on the most minute of Haruhi-related topics, but those who have not studied the franchise in that much detail have much less to say. If the topics became even more spoiler-laden, you would amplify that dichotomy even further. But if you're trying to count "uniques", I don't think that novel-readers are by any stretch the majority, though they're certainly the most "vocal" (in many ways). |
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2009-10-15, 21:18 | Link #9 | |
Hina is my goddess
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If the board is going to be so strict on spoilers threads should NOT be made before it can be discussed meaningfully. As a side, any discussion on "News" about the movie would probably be a bigger spoiler than any guesses based on the novel. So i really dont see how that is going to help generate discussion AT ALL. I trying my hardest not to hijack this thread, but what about animes without a subfourm? Why would anime watchers go into the novel thread, try to dig through just to get some guesses on future plots? What is the use of a spoiler tag if there is no legal use for it? |
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2009-10-15, 21:36 | Link #10 | |
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Haruhi-situation-in-particular anyway. I see where Daniel E. is coming from... but at the same time, your point about spoiler tags in general resonates with me. I guess, for me, I just don't see how having to wade through two or three pages of heavy spoiler-tagged discussion is any worse than, say, digging through the Haruhi or Nanoha images threads to try to find a certain image. That will probably be my final word on this topic, though. I respect what the moderators choose to do given current policy, and feedback given here on this thread.
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2009-10-15, 21:57 | Link #11 | ||||
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-- Let me explain what the other issue is that is really at play here, and the reason why we had to have this compromise. People really suck horribly at labeling their spoilers. You may or may not recall that back in the day the rule used to be that spoilers were allowed as long as they were properly labeled. We even gave examples about how to label your spoiler tags to make sure they were specific and descriptive so that everyone knew what they were going into. But barely a day went by when we'd have some moron post something like this. Spoiler for spoiler:
The problem was that the level of spoilers within threads was far too varied. You had people using spoiler tags to post their impressions of raws that were just released (which some people were okay with reading), and other people using the very same spoiler tags to post top secrets about things nobody wants to be told about, all with very little care paid to differentiate between the two. So people would get lulled into a false sense of security and be clicking away at spoilers (that were of the mild variety), until all of a sudden one of the spoilers in a long thread of mild spoilers would be an improperly-labeled "extreme spoiler", possibly some guy replying to another post and trying to be "helpful" (and they thought that since it was a reply, their spoiler didn't need a label). This happened quite often. So the decision was made to limit the type of spoilers that you could possibly find in an anime thread so that whatever spoilers are there are occasional and sporadic, and would never be too extreme. This way it's also much more clear-cut; no more arguments about whether something is or isn't "clearly labeled" -- it's either allowed, or it isn't. The topic-based system, with its limited exceptions, is at least understandable and provides some consistency that can be applied throughout the site. In general terms, from a moderator perspective, I would say that it's accomplished its purpose of reducing the overall amount of spoiler tags, and reducing the amount of "accidental spoilers" that people are subjected to. So, all that being said, you need to keep in mind that the current policy wasn't adopted in some sort of vacuum. We all know that the word "spoiler" means "it spoils the content of the show!", and so that it logically follows (policy excepted) that clicking it may cause you to be spoiled. But what you're proposing as an ideal state is actually the same thing that we had before, and it was as a result of our experiences in that prior state that we arrived at this new policy (after a great deal of discussion among the staff). So even if you say that you basically want us to return to the way it used to be, we'd still have to find a different way to overcome all the problems that this new policy was designed to solve. Perhaps these last few years of experience have uncovered some new opportunities or possibilities in this area, but it's not as if these sorts of issues weren't considered in the first place. I know that's probably way too much information, but if you really want to know why we have the policy we do, that's just another one of the reasons. From an outside perspective, I'm sure that many of the policies seem illogical and impractical at times, but chances are that, at the very least, it's the result of prior experience and change over time. (And also... I want to say that although I was part of these discussions, what we landed on wasn't my first choice, or necessarily the first choice of any of the given staff. We had to work hard to find something that would meet all the objectives and still be agreeable to (and enforceable by) everyone. So it's not like all of this is necessarily my personal point of view, but having been through all the long conversations that got us to where we are, I at least remember the hurdles that we were trying to overcome.) |
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2009-10-15, 23:00 | Link #12 | ||
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And a "reasonable prediction" is only so to novel readers. The novels are not some sort of universal and mandatory knowledge to all fans of the anime. Quote:
-Initial reactions to the anouncement -Discussion regarding the staff in charge of the movie (when/if it's announced) -How popular the movie could be in Japan (in comparison with other animated films) -Possibilities of the movie reaching theaters outside of Japan. -Etc. etc. For any comparison/discussion about how the movie will handle the plot of the books, you simply jump to the novel threads and voila! If you ran out of things to discuss, you simply take a break from the thread and wait until more info is available.
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2009-10-16, 08:23 | Link #13 | ||
Hina is my goddess
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I fully remember that spoiler tags use to be absolutely horrendous, but that should only serve to make people use better tag titles, and ban those who don't. I'm not looking for a return to the old rules, just a set of rules that would allow conversations, but with adequate protection for the people who don't like spoilers. Fully out banning the discussion seems incredibly extreme to me, but i digress... Quote:
allow me to sum up general discussions on the topics you have listed inital reaction = "zomg i love this so much" staff = "zomg xxx staff rocks so much and i watch everything by them" popularity = "zomg i love this so much and so does everyone else" exporting = "Dubs plz" Now you may say this is an unfair generalization of a few bad posters. But i have seen this on other sub-fourms. I'll admit discussion on the staff may be the closest thing to bring meaningfully discussion, but otherwise, initial reaction without plot is simply fandom, popularity is even more evident of this, and exporting... well i have not seen much discussion involving this but i would bet that it would be the same. In some cases, books/novels are way ahead. the show might cover chapter 20, when the manga is at chapter 100. Either you would have to dig through tems or hundreds of pages to find your answer, or you would have to make a post every time someone had a question, and that gets annoying for manga readers. Again, without meaningfully discussion, threads should not exist. if i can't discuss the plot and the thread is going to be filled with only fanboy antics, then you shouldn't make threads before its aired. Last edited by relentlessflame; 2009-10-16 at 09:59. |
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2009-10-16, 10:49 | Link #14 | |||
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The basic logic of the overall policy is rather straightforward: anything that's off-topic is not allowed, and anything that isn't discussing the specific medium of the thread is off-topic. We had to have a system, and this is what we have. So the answer to "why is it a problem?" is quite simple: it isn't allowed. And it isn't allowed because that's the basis of the policy. And the policy exists to reduce and restrict the use of spoiler tags in anime threads. So the fact that it succeeded in eliminating a use case for spoilers in an anime thread means that the policy accomplished one of its objectives (the other, and related, being to protect people from being unintentionally spoiled). Quote:
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But that aside... Heck, if "meaningful and insightful" is the new measuring stick, there are a lot of threads on this site that deserve some re-considering... |
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2009-10-16, 11:11 | Link #15 | |
Hina is my goddess
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Also i thought that the entire point of "limited fourms" was to weed out threads with no discussion. Your last post makes that seem incredibility contradictory. Again, AnimeSuki is a private entity and are free to set their own rules, i just find the spoiler rules incredibility unfair, restricting, and contradictory. |
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2009-10-16, 12:10 | Link #16 | |||
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I can at least say that the current policy, as written, does have a logic that can be followed and applied consistently throughout the forum. At least that's something. |
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2009-10-16, 14:15 | Link #17 | |
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If you think only novel discussions can be meaningful, then that's the only thing that will ever be meaningful to you. It's all a matter of perspective in the end.
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2009-11-11, 13:04 | Link #18 | |
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Something should be done about talking about source material in the adapation thread. Many times people start talking about the source material and says they aren't spoiling anything. Sorry but, telling me that new Character C makes Character A act different to Character B is a spoiler. It is hard to gauge and some source material discussion is to be expected, like comparisons or what was left out, BUT some people don't' care. They should use spoiler tags and they may be more inclined (or simply forced to) if the rules were changed to include something like that.
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Exactly. SeedFreedom thinks its too strict, and I think its not strict enough. I've gotten into some small squabbles over spoilers and even had my reputation attacked because of it. I do have one question, if I see a spoiler should I just report the post?
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2009-11-11, 13:25 | Link #19 | |
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The Report feature can be used for informing us of such instances. Please bear in mind that we (the Mods) are not familiar with the source material of all the series out there so we may not be able to respond in a timely manner in every case. |
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2009-11-11, 15:46 | Link #20 |
Hina is my goddess
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But i've seen some people complaining over a post basically saying "Stuff happens". That can't really be a spoiler. Of course stuff happens. Stuff always happens. Unless the show ends stuff will happen. Its got to be expected. For instance, a person said "Omg this character will get some development soon. Things are going to get interesting" is that a spoiler? I think at some point, especially if nothing is revealed people need to chill. Accidentally seeing "stuff happens" isn't the end of the world.
Directly adressing DragonZero's point, sure, maybe you can see a person saying "person A is going to change person B and C" a spoiler, but if nothing is exactly revealed, how is that a spoiler? For all you know, they get closer, drift apart, or even one kills another. Your excitement for the show should change because of that. If things become that restrictive people cant even say "stuff happens" then source readers will just be turned off by this board. I'm seriously having a lot of a harder time enjoying anime suki when everyone has to now say "Pm me for details, i cant tell you details of what cuse its a spoiler, but some kind of detail on the show". |
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spoiler policy, spoilers |
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