Madoka Magica - Episode 04 Discussion / Poll

[Haak]

Damn, this show is just getting better and better.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Miyuki-ism

Maybe Madoka is being greedy and doesn't want to wish anything because she doesn't want to die like Mami, or she's actually just following Homura's advice.

It's not that she doesn't actually wish for it. It's that she's not even shown thinking abut it, or asking out-loud about it. Whether or not Mami can be wished back from the dead really is a 800 lb elephant in the room that nobody seems to want to bring up.


Consider that Madoka shows great guilt, in this episode, over choosing to not be a magical girl. You can only feel guilt when you really consider an alternate course of action (i.e. "I should have done this instead", or "I shouldn't be making the decision that I'm making right now").

So, as scared as Madoka is of choosing to be a magical girl, it's not a choice that she has completely ruled out. In other words, she's still weighing the pros and cons of being a magical girl. In that state of mind, she really ought to be wondering if she could wish Mami back from the dead.

[Haak]

Can you wish for something like that? I dunno why but for some reason I thought there were limitations to these wishes...

[MeoTwister5]

Well if Homura could have in theory gotten Kyubey to manipulate time for Madoka's sake, then raising the dead isn't out of the question.

Which again brings me back to how the theory of Kyubey's power or the ultimate goal of the entire cycle reeks very much of F/SN Holy Grail.

[PastPrime]

Originally Posted by Mentar

Yep, 100% on target. And one thing more:

Spoiler for stay away if you haven't watched ep4 yet:

I'm pretty happy because I picked up a critical flag for my main theory (Madoka and Homura have a shared joint past): During the bridge scene, Homura's reaction to Madoka's outburst that she'd NEVER EVER forget her shows that Madoka HAD forgotten her actually. And in my opinion, this is because Madoka HAD been a MG in the past, and Homura wished her out. Removing her from the grinder required that Madoka would forget about her prior life, and so, Homura. It's like Homura said: Madoka is too caring - the only way to protect her would be to keep Madoka _ignorant_ of what's really happening.

For Sayaka, things developed 100% as predicted, and I see no point to make any alterations. I foresee that Kamijo will forsake Sayaka, the only question is how brutal he's going to be when he dumps her. Sayaka will feel totally cheated and crushed, and she'll refuse to hold up her end of the MG bargain, because she didn't get what she wanted (remember Mami's warning from ep3?) - and so, she is going to be used to demonstrate the passivity rule of the blood grinder, turning her into a witch. And heck - she'll accumulate enough grief all by herself too, with Kamijou. Only one addition to last week's prediction: After turning into a witch, she will be killed by the new MG from the end of ep4. And with the disturbingly genki preview Urobuchi Gen gave Sayaka at the end of the episode, I expect her to meet her end at the end of ep5 already. No longer than ep6.

I also feel I can see the overarching theme rising out of the mists: It's about Madoka overcoming her fears and becoming a _real_ Magical Girl. The "yuuki" aspect emphasized in this show, much more than the lip service of most other MG animes.

So, as extension to my theories up to now, I say that Madoka's "wish", to call it, is going to be exactly what she told Mami: She wants to be useful as a _real_ Magical Girl, out of a feeling of duty and with the intent to truly help people and NOT as a means to an end (doing it for the wish from QB). And by becoming a true MG without the motivation of a selfish wish, she is _really_ going to gain the power to do true miracles.

I want to watch the ep with subs once more before sorting my thoughts, but IMHO this is going to be the main theme of the show. Madoka overcoming her fears, gaining true courage and becoming a real MG, other than the "fakes" that are currently active.

Spoiler:

I will have to credit you with being right on with your predictions. But I think that I was right on one point. From her conversation this episode, I think that Homura is a LOT older that she looks. I don't know if it has to do with being a Magical Girl, or is related to her wish, but I don't think she has aged for a very long time. That is why she has seen so many Magical Girls die. That would explain a number of things. She doesn't make friends because it hurts more when you are leaving close friends and she would have to move and start a new life every few years. And she is so good in school because she has gone over the same material countless times. Perhaps you are right about her wishing Madoka out of being a Magical Girl, or perhaps Madoka is the reincarnation of a former friend or partner or just reminds her of a former friend or partner.

[Haak]

Originally Posted by MeoTwister5

Well if Homura could have in theory gotten Kyubey to manipulate time for Madoka's sake, then raising the dead isn't out of the question.

Which again brings me back to how the theory of Kyubey's power or the ultimate goal of the entire cycle reeks very much of F/SN Holy Grail.

Oh dear God, now I can't help but think Homura is Madoka's future self, Archer-style. DX

[spawnofthejudge]

Originally Posted by Haak

Oh dear God, now I can't help but think Homura is Madoka's future self, Archer-style. DX

I'm less inclined, as there seems to be a little too much... ah... self-affection.

Homura's wistfulness about Madoka seems consistent with a close friend, but not with... herself.

[Sheba]

Originally Posted by Haak

Can you wish for something like that? I dunno why but for some reason I thought there were limitations to these wishes...

I am more worried about crazy shit like this.

"Are you sure that the Mami you brought back is 100% vanilla Mami?"

[PastPrime]

Originally Posted by zato_1one

Bringing back Mami is not going to help because they will still fight till death again and again. I'd say that wish was not the problem any more. They (at that time) were too fear to get involve in this MG business. About the limitation of wish, I think that it will be revealed later.

I think that Mami's death fulfilled the contract. If she is brought back she would not be a Magical Girl unless she made a new contract.

[MeoTwister5]

Originally Posted by Haak

Oh dear God, now I can't help but think Homura is Madoka's future self, Archer-style. DX

Okay I actually wasn't even considering that but thank you for inserting selfcest into my mind.

Seriously though I wouldn't be surprised of the source of their wishes is really some yet unknown malevolent force and the possibility that Homura might even know something about this.

[Kagayaki]

The only two wishes that we've actually seen have been souped-up healing magic, so it's hard to actually tell how powerful the wishing system is. I assume you can't ask for more wishes or for omnipotence.

The thing to remember is that the wish-granter probably isn't on our side. I'd imagine that something like wishing away all the witches would go against Kyubey's self-interests, so even if he had the power to fulfill that wish, he probably wouldn't grant it (although he might trick the girl into thinking he has?)

Essentially, there are many wishes you could make that would let you avoid paying the price associated with being a magical girl or destroy the system Kyubey has put in place. I'm sure that you could never get Kyubey to fulfill any of these wishes honestly and without any catches.

Part of the question is how much power Kyubey has, where it comes from, and why he wants to grant wishes and create magical girls, none of which we know for certain yet.

[Genten]

Oh, Sayaka.

Spoiler for Episode 4:

Why!? I mean, I knew it was going to happen but. . . still *cries*

I'll start with Kamijou, who doesn't deserve the Sayaka love he gets. Seriously, the guy's an ass. How does he repay this girl who constantly talks to him, hopes for a recovery, and sacrifices herself for him? By saying that she's a horrible person and that she's torturing him by bringing him music that he, by the way, asks for himself. The guy doesn't deserve to get movement in his fingers back. Sayaka needs to ditch him and get with me Madoka.

Ehem, I'll say more about that in the Sayaka thread, though. Let's focus on the actual episode. Because I'm obessed with lists (seriously, I love them almost as much as Mikado and Sayaka) I'm going to make one of the things of interest (for me) in this episode:

• We get more insight on the relationship between Sayaka and Kamijou.
• We also get more information on Kyubey.
• Also expanded is the world of Puella Magi and how they operate.
• Homura has tried to protect other girls before or at least has seen many of them die.
• Sayaka becomes a magical girl.
• A new character is introduced, Sakura Kyoko.
• More information about how Witches operate is released.
• We get a little more information about Mami.

I'll skip the first as I'll save it for the Sayaka thread and start with Kyubey. Who else got the chills when Sayaka looked through the window and we saw the shadow of Kyubey in her eye? That probably creeped me out the most, of all the episodes, because it so effectively symbolizes the destruction of Homura and Mami's advice and actions and shows that Kyubey has won. Kyubey has contracted many girls, we can assume, and we can also assume that Homura and Mami are his most succesful prospects. The two have probably had to watch, as Homura puts it, "too many to count" magical girls dying. Both reacted in different ways: Mami, for reasons unclear, continued to operate under Kyubey's orders until she killed herself. Homura rebelled against the contractor and tried to keep girls from becoming Puella Magi. I think Homura's actions say more than anything that while contractors are powerful they are not powerful enough to kill a Magi of their own accord.

Kyubey is smart, though, and plays the hand he's dealt with the best of his ability. He basically guilt trips Madoka and Sayaka into becoming magical girls: by saying he's 'disapointed' (or something to that effect) that the two won't become Puella Magi he wears down their resolve. He also associates with Sakura, who is probably another Puella Magi looking for more territory. Perhaps contractors don't specifically call out girls, per se, but control a certain amount of territory. Any potentional Puella Magi in this area default to the contractor that controls it. Perhaps switching territory means switching contractors as well: it would work well for Kyubey, who would put another magical girl under his belt.

The territory thing is an interesting concept. It basically hints that Puella Magi are similar to vultures: once one has died her territory is up for grabs and it's usually first come, first serve, unless you want to duel the controller for it. Mami is very powerful: she would effectively control her territory and scare away competitiors. I assume that having more than one magical girl in an area wouldn't be a problem unless they tried to kill each other. It could also be the case that girls under the same contractor can't kill each other: it would work against the contractor's main goal, which is to continue playing the game.

Cities are prime real estate because they have so many people, and with people come lots of problems. Daten City The city where Madoka and Sayaka live is one of these mega centers for witches, meaning lots of chances for grief seeds. Speaking of witches, I knew that they could effect people with a Witch's Kiss but I didn't know that they could suck people into their layers. Madoka is not connected with Kyubey when the witch takes her. This either means that the witch can take anyone or Kyubey was maintaining a bond with Madoka, unknown to her, to persuade her to become a Puella Magi.

The last thing that I found of interest are the little things dropped about Mami. Mami, and all magical girls, are perfect warriors for contractors: they fight to preserve themselves and their wishes, without realizing they're fighting for a higher power, and they can die without a body ever being found. If we assume the only way to kill a magical girl is by a witch, Puella Magi are somewhat immortal: immune to disease and injury by a non-magical source. So if a Puella Magi dies by a witch the body will never be found and the work of contractors and magical girls can remain hidden. It's a sad existence, even in death.

[Serperior]

This episode was awesome, yet at the same time creepy.

In the next episode, I'm guessing Kyouko (voiced by Ai Nonaka!!) will demand a fight with Sayaka. Sayaka will accept even though she's just a rookie (she said to Madoka that she's quite good even though she's a rookie, if I'm not mistaken) and lose.

Finally, I was really creeped out when Sayaka saw Kyubey out the window. It's like.. Kyubey's expecting it.

[Kaijo]

Originally Posted by Kanon

She's not being greedy, she's just scared, which is completely natural considering what she witnessed. She knows that making a wish condemns her to a life of figthing which will almost inevitably end gruesomely for her. In these conditions, I don't know about you, but I'd think twice before wishing someone I barely knew back to life.

I really can't blame Madoka for choosing to stay away for that magical girl business.

Maybe she is. And maybe she would choose to stay out of the MG business even IF she could wish Mami back.

The point is, we SHOULD see her thinking about it. It's a perfectly logical and valid point to consider. We don't know the limitations of the wishing system, and until we do, it's the big elephant in the room that characters in the show are avoiding.

Let me be clear, that I have no problems with Madoka going, "I could wish Mami back... but.. I'll be a magical girl and I can't... I'm so sorry Mami, I'm too scared!"

I have no problems with Kyube going, "There are some things you can't wish for. Bringing back the dead is one of them" or "You can't wish away all witches forever; it's not within my power." Even Genie from Aladdin had specific rules.

The point is, until we know those rules or see the characters consider them, it will forever loom overhead as a big point the writers are avoiding answering. And that's bad writing, unless he does plan to solve everything at the end with a wish or two.

Also, other than that, I think the series is fairly good. It's just that wish systems in stories have huge potential to make the characters stupid in order for the plot to work *coughcoughNEVERENDINGSTORY2AND3coughcough*. I'd rather not see that happen here.

[Skyfall]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

It's not that she doesn't actually wish for it. It's that she's not even shown thinking abut it, or asking out-loud about it. Whether or not Mami can be wished back from the dead really is a 800 lb elephant in the room that nobody seems to want to bring up.

But the very reason she feels guilt is likely because she can't bring herself to become a MG for Mami's sake. I don't believe this needs to be said out loud, i am sure she was thinking about, but in the end is too scared to take that option, hence the guilt. It's not like she has much else to feel guilty for - she feels guilty for not being up to the task when she could potentially bring her friend back. She might even be scared of asking about it, because an actual confirmation that revival is an option would torment her even more - it's one thing to suspect (and it's bad enough on her), it's another to have it confirmed by Kyubey - she still wouldn't be able to do it, but would feel even more crushed by guilt. It's a very human reaction, and i am impressed the show took it indeed.

[Triple_R]

I agree entirely with Kaijo's last post.

That precisely sums up my take on the particular topic of discussion, as well as Madoka as a whole.


Really, it's mostly just a nitpick for me. It doesn't significantly erode my enjoyment for this anime, or my assessment of it.

At least not yet.

At some point, though, this wish system really needs to be tested, or questioned. It'll be disappointing if nobody does this, imo.

[Kazu-kun]

"You're too kind. Don't forget. That kindness may yet bring a greater tragedy."

Love this line. It makes me think Homura is not just protection Madoka. I think she knows that if she makes a contract with Kyubey, there'll be more consequences that just Madoka meeting a gruesome dead. At this point I almost convinced that Madoka making a contract, regardless of what she may wish for, will not save anyone, but rather bring the world to hell....

Really looking forward to next episode!!!

[GDB]

Originally Posted by omimon

I don't if anybody mentioned this but I think what the zombies were making was mustard gas. Can anyone help me with this, the only bottle I could see was "Super wash".

They were trying to create toxic chlorine gas. If you mix chlorine-based cleanser with an acid-based cleanser, you release toxic chlorine gas.

[Kaijo]

Originally Posted by Skyfall

But the very reason she feels guilt is likely because she can't bring herself to become a MG for Mami's sake. I don't believe this needs to be said out loud, i am sure she was thinking about, but in the end is too scared to take that option, hence the guilt. It's not like she has much else to feel guilty for - she feels guilty for not being up to the task when she could potentially bring her friend back. She might even be scared of asking about it, because an actual confirmation that revival is an option would torment her even more - it's one thing to suspect (and it's bad enough on her), it's another to have it confirmed by Kyubey - she still wouldn't be able to do it, but would feel even more crushed by guilt. It's a very human reaction, and i am impressed the show took it indeed.

As I pointed out, you may be right, but we need to be shown this. To do otherwise is bad writing.

If you really need to be made aware of the problems with wish systems, I suggest you watch the Neverending Story 2 and 3. Better yet, watch the Nostalgia Critic's review of those two movies.

If you can end your series on a happy note with a wish that was available from day 1, it's bad writing, plain and simple. It means you need to make your characters dumb as dirt in order for the plot to work.

[Kanon]

Originally Posted by Skyfall

But the very reason she feels guilt is likely because she can't bring herself to become a MG for Mami's sake. I don't believe this needs to be said out loud, i am sure she was thinking about, but in the end is too scared to take that option, hence the guilt. It's not like she has much else to feel guilty for - she feels guilty for not being up to the task when she could potentially bring her friend back. She might even be scared of asking about it, because an actual confirmation that revival is an option would torment her even more - it's one thing to suspect (and it's bad enough on her), it's another to have it confirmed by Kyubey - she still wouldn't be able to do it, but would feel even more crushed by guilt. It's a very human reaction, and i am impressed the show took it indeed.

Exactly. The reason Madoka felt so miserable and guilty in this episode is that she is aware it should be possible to bring Mami back to life (Kyubey clearly told her he can make any kind of miracles happen), but chooses not to because she's scared. I don't think this needs to be spelled out to us. The implication seen in the episode are enough. Take the scene at Mami's apartment for example: Madoka breaks down into tears and asks for Mami's forgiveness for being weak. "Weak" meaning she doesn't have the resolve and courage to become a magical girl, and therefore can't do anything for Mami.

Incidentally, the very reason she didn't ask Kyubey if it is possible to bring Mami back to life is that she's afraid of the answer. She would feel even more terrible if she knew for sure she could wish her back, but was too scared to do so. By remaining in the dark, she can try to convince herself there is nothing she can do, and thus alleviate her guilt a little.