What makes a good translation?

[babbito2k]

I think translators are entitled to take liberties with their work. The English language has its own flow and rhythm. Allowing that rhythm to express itself makes for a more enjoyable experience.

I remember this controversial line about chocolate because I saw it translated as "Yes, I want to be chocolate in my next life" (in a different fansub I guess). Maybe I'm stupid or something, but I got stuck on that line -- it sounded like a really dumb thing to say in a straightforward conversation. I don't know enough about Buddhism to be able to work out how being reincarnated as something you like to eat works out as a goal ?_?;;;

All I could think of was that Nagisa is so dopey and greedy that she had no idea what she was saying; the listener let it go because she was busy with something else. I was watching a fairly simple kid's show; there were other things going on in that scene to pay attention to.

So I don't really have any problem with the idea that this sentence could be handled differently even to the extent of changing the meaning without diminishing my enjoyment of the line or scene.

[The Yellow Dwarf]

Originally Posted by NoSanninWa

To summarize that wonderful post The Yellow Dwarf just made, since too many people zoned out midway through it.

Sorry, I'm never too good at distilling my own thoughts.

Originally Posted by Quarkboy

Ah, but here you have lost something important in your analysis... context and speaker. Now, I can't blame you since I didn't explain them, however this line is spoken by Nagisa, the main character, who is a relatively stupid middle school student. In fact, her general ignorance and shallow perception is a common theme in the show. In my opinion this subtext is in fact NOT part of the author's intent, and having Nagisa say something which sounds poetic would be out of character. To a native speaker, would any of this subtext you say be apparent? No, because it has nothing to do with the story. The only intended meaning was her great love of eating chocolate. One can argue whether that is better portrayed in the literal translation, but as for your claim that the non-literal loses fundamental poetic properties, I say the line never had them in the first place.

So to summarize, poetry should be kept as such, but remember that sometimes what is simple in one language is poetic in another.

I have to once again point out that the intepretation of the original text by the translator is one of the key responsibilities of a translator. As such, your intepretation of the text determines partially how good your translation is. I'm not saying your translation in this particular example is a bad one, I'm simply pointing out the alternative intepretation of the text possible that is lost in translation. How important the loss is to the greater body of the work largely depends on how people choose to view it; but a "good translator" will be keen to keep the most coherent and apparent subtext intact, or at least keep it in consideration.

I think what I am trying to say is that, beyond simply "catering to a target audience." the translator is also a re-teller of the original text who needs to intepret the original at least fairly accurately; and the skills required for that goes beyond simply finding correspondence of signs from one language to another (that is, going from word to word), or making simple editions to the original text to fit the sensibilities of the target audience.

(Side Note: When I used the word "poetic", it was solely directed to Shinkai Makoto's "「世界」ってことばがある," which I find to embody a sort of non-subjective melancholy that I find typically East-Asian. It had nothing to do with eh...the chocolate thing.)

[kujoe]

Wow. That was one great post back there Yellow Dwarf. A wonderful read. And yes, I did read all of that. Needless to say, I definitely agree.

Personally, I wish American anime companies have translators with that kind of view. Thanks for sharing your thoughts.

[kaerichi]

Dude with the stuff. These are some absolutely wonderful responses here, and I thank you all. Keep 'em coming!

Originally Posted by NoSanninWa

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dorfl
EDIT: It says 17+36+4 voters, but at the bottom it says 46 votes. Is it that my math is just bad or is something fishy going on?

Something fishy is going on. The poll allows people to vote for more than 1 options. Blame the poll maker.

Yep, blame me. Since this forum allows for polls with more than one answer checked, I thought I'd see how many people checked both #1 and #2 when given the option.

Interestingly enough, even with that, #2 is winning out. Like several of the posters here, I tend towards #2, with the caveat that most of the time #1 is perfectly sufficient, and going beyond a literal translation is not called for. The fun comes in situations where the literal translation either has no direct equivalent in English (examples being honorifics- a wide range of opinion here about those- and common phrases like itadakimasu, etc) or a literal translation would not get the spirit of the line across. I will give some ultraquick examples (if you're interested, both from Gundam Seed Destiny ep 7):

Konna koto bakari ga tokui demo, shou ga nai.
--> Lit., Even if/though I'm good at (only) things like this, there's nothing to be done.
----> Fig., Though I may have a talent for things like this, it doesn't do me any good.

In this case, which was just uppermost in my head, I think there's a clear difference between the straight literal translation of the line and the translation going for the spirit of the line, and I think the spirit version is more appropriate, because it retains the original subtext.

Kare ga kawaisou da!
-->Lit., He's pathetic!/ He's in pain!
---->Fig., I feel sorry for him!

Same here, although it has that meaning because it depends heavily on its context. These are both examples of Japanese phrases that can mean a lot of different things, and the dictionary English translation is not going to cut it for all of those situations. I think that taking that extra leap beyond the 'vanilla' version means going by #2.

Originally Posted by kujoe

Translating can be a headache sometimes. And for me, it's really a struggle between literal translation and cultural transliteration.

Originally Posted by babbito2k

I think translators are entitled to take liberties with their work. The English language has its own flow and rhythm. Allowing that rhythm to express itself makes for a more enjoyable experience.

I agree here too. Any story is not necessarily better in one language versus another. When translating, don't we have a responsibility to the English language to use its phenomenal breadth, rhythm and power? Don't we have a responsibility to the characters to let them speak just as beautifully and make them sound just as cool in English?

Originally Posted by Quarkboy, re the Chocolate Line

I'm glad this got some response, I figured it would be controversial. Let add one thing, the show this is taken from is (as might be obvious to some people) is "Pretty Cure", a show designed for young girls and aired early mornings. Indeed, had the intended audience been older people I would have left it unchanged. But my thought process goes like this: Would a 11 year old american girl (the corresponding american audience) understand what is meant by the original phrase? Not neccesarily. In an anime designed for more mature viewers, cultural references like this should be left in.
Now this begs the question: "Isn't the audience of fansub viewers (the subject of this poll) destinctly DIFFERENT then the audience of the original Japanese anime?" And should the translator take that into account? I feel to keep the overall intent of the show as being aimed at young people more important than the (perhaps unfortunate fact) that fansubs are primarily watched by 15-25 year old males.

Originally Posted by Dragosmore

I think 2 can really go too far at times. Right now I'm watching Viz' Hana Yori Dango and the amount of simplification and re-wording things is unbelievable ...I assume they do this because there's an American audience but doing something like that in my opinion, really insults the creators and scriptwriters for the series.

Originally Posted by Quarkboy

It's almost a federalism type argument: should the translator trust in the viewer's ability to properly understand the cultural aspects of the translated text, or should he (or she) take it upon himself to determine how much to rephrase those concepts into english versions to best suit the intended audience.
Obviously either extreme spells failure.

Originally Posted by The Yellow Dwarf

However, I think that while it is good to see translators keeping the interest of their particular preconceived target audience in mind, it is equally (if not more) important to keep the interest of the original author's intention in mind, and in particular, the significance of the diction of the original text. This, I think, is one of the two greatest challenges in translation (the other being finding a stylistically similar way of conveying the same message in the language the work is being tranlsated into).

Those are the magic words. When I wrote the three poll options, I had three things in mind:

#1 the text, the only concrete link to meaning we have
#2 the author and their intention
#3 the audience and their reception

The three poll options are supposed to signify which of these you hold to. If anyone's familiar with literary theory, they'll know that we have just tapped into a discussion that's been going on for decades ... and of course that no one of these options is 'right'.

[kujoe]

Originally Posted by kaerichi

The three poll options are supposed to signify which of these you hold to. If anyone's familiar with literary theory, they'll know that we have just tapped into a discussion that's been going on for decades ... and of course that no one of these options is 'right'.

I'm also quite familiar with literary theory--in a "love it" and "hate it" kind of way. I'm just not sure if we're actually delving into literary theory, critical theory or cultural studies. All these categories can be confusing sometimes.

All in all, my preference lies between option 1 and 2, but with a little bias for option 1. I think my opinion is best worded out as, "closest as possible to the original without resorting to shortcuts or banal dumbing down of meaning." Moreover, if a particular line has an artistic or "poetic" manner to it then as much as possible, I would like to see this aspect preserved. Keep those metaphors, and keep those figures of speech--or in other words, keep it genuine. And as Yellow Dwarf has demostrated a while ago, if going for the literal can achieve this, then please don't be afraid keep it that way.

Anyway, this is just an opinion of mine.

This is also brings me to another point--which I should've mentioned early on. If a translator is going to be translating a particular work from Japanese to English, then it goes without saying that he/she, along with the editors should also have an intimate grasp on the English language itself. I shouldn't even have to emphasize this actually.



**Just in case someone is wondering, I'm only referring to subtitles. Dubbing on the other hand, demands adjustments due to voice-acting, timing and lip-synching issues. It's another animal entirely in my opinion.

[Heibi]

Originally Posted by babbito2k

I think translators are entitled to take liberties with their work. The English language has its own flow and rhythm. Allowing that rhythm to express itself makes for a more enjoyable experience.

I remember this controversial line about chocolate because I saw it translated as "Yes, I want to be chocolate in my next life" (in a different fansub I guess). Maybe I'm stupid or something, but I got stuck on that line -- it sounded like a really dumb thing to say in a straightforward conversation. I don't know enough about Buddhism to be able to work out how being reincarnated as something you like to eat works out as a goal ?_?;;;

All I could think of was that Nagisa is so dopey and greedy that she had no idea what she was saying; the listener let it go because she was busy with something else. I was watching a fairly simple kid's show; there were other things going on in that scene to pay attention to.

So I don't really have any problem with the idea that this sentence could be handled differently even to the extent of changing the meaning without diminishing my enjoyment of the line or scene.

As to changing the meaning:
I remeber a Group(who will remain nameless) who subtitled Macross Plus in free form way. The excuse was "We wanted to give the audience an idea as to what was going on"

The whole script was littered(an appropriate metaphor) with mistrandlated and completely bogus lines. Visualize to fighters shooting at each other above a city. Example follows:

Isamu: It looks like you're trying to kill me!
Guld: Well, it looks like you're trying to kill me!
Isamu: I'll kill you first!
Guld No, you'll die first!
(As close as I could remember since I trashed their translation after we corrected it)

Corrected translation:
Isamu: You're the one who borrowed my "Guns" CDV and you still haven't given it back!
Guld: Well you dissappeared seven years ago!

And they continue to talk about their high school years during the entire battle. The unnamed group(And some here may know who they are) didn't even come close. Not in the entire battle. And most of the script. We had to re-translate about 80% of their script.

So, sorry, I can't even remotely agree with the notion of changing the meaning.

Heibi
Central Anime

[ChoBaka]

I don't see anything wrong with how that chocolate line was translated. I'd guess that when that line was made up by the script authors, they weren't putting some deep and philosophical meaning into it such as in the 'There is a word called "WORLD" line. To me, wanting heaven to be full of chocolate conveys about the same amount of affinity for chocolate as wanting to be born as the said material. The former is something someone would say in English, while the latter is not (unless, of course, you know some Japanese, but even then it's a bit unusual). In fact, when I was studying Japanese in college, a translation like 'being reborn into chocolate' would actually get less marks than the 'heaven full of chocolate' translation for being too literal (and slightly awkward). Of course, that one instance mentioned before about the 'There is a world called "WORLD" and the English dub...that's a totally different story. I don't think that the dub even conveys a roughly similar meaning. But in this case the situation is quite different; the disparity in meaning between the two translations is minimal, while one conveys the local language better than the other.

[AnimeFangirl]

You see, the problem I have with that whole chocolate line is:
1. Being reborn as chocolate is not such a hard concept for any intelligent human being to grasp. Harsh, perhaps, but true. Even with the excuse that your audience is 11, which I doubt but let's not quibble, they're still in 5th grade not kindergarten.
2. More importantly, THAT'S NOT WHAT SHE SAID!! I want to hear what the character actually said, not what the translator decides she should've said because it's hard for kids to understand or it sounds dumb. I don't like translators interjecting their own opinions into the text unless it is absolutely necessary, and in this case it's not.

[SirCanealot]

Originally Posted by Dorfl

2. More importantly, THAT'S NOT WHAT SHE SAID!! I want to hear what the character actually said, not what the translator decides she should've said because it's hard for kids to understand or it sounds dumb.

One thing that always ANNOYS (yes, it does; nothing I can do though except learn Japanese fully) me about translations is, not reading what a person says is the CRUX of the problem. Even with my extremely limited knowledge of Japanese, I still, every now and again, pick up little bits here and there that aren't at all reflected in the subtitle script. Like the difference between a character using "boku" and a character using "ore". Or characters playing around with honorifics, I can understand to some extent.
The point I'm trying to make is, saying "THAT'S NOT WHAT SHE SAID!!" is a bit of a concrete statement. You're NEVER hearing what s/he said; from a certain point of view, you're ALWAYS hearing what the character has said from the view point of the translator.
That's translation for you. If you really wanted to read what the character said, with no English-mangling what so ever, wouldn't it turn into "boku (no direct translation - an example) bus go later make tea purple monkey dishwasher"?

As I said, I disagree with that change, but I FULLY apriciate the different view points surrounding the change.
"Abosolutely necessary" is fully an opinion that you hold yourself.

Not meaning to jump on you or anything, Dorfl, just trying to expand on your thoughts... or something

[AnimeFangirl]

I'm talking about "I wish to be reborn as chocolate" versus "I wish heaven was made out of chocolate," not "Chocolate as reborn wish I." Grammar, spelling, a little rearranging of word order, all this goes without saying for me. It's the meaning I'm concerned about.

[raikage]

And yet some idioms are translated. Should that be the case?

Example: 風邪をひいた (kaze wo hiita) - to draw a cold
The English version of this would be to catch a cold.

Which would people prefer in this case? Would the change be noticed? Is it even relevant?

Or, take the Initial D stage 4 manga/anime:

The manga translation:
(Putting a pro driver in this course is like) a bear that's found its honey.

The anime translation:
(Putting a pro driver in this course is like) putting a fish in water.

I don't have the raw manga, and I'm not exactly sure what they're saying.
The two have slightly different connotations, and neither may be an exact translation (in fact, the anime version is an English idiom).

Would the "bear" translation be appropriate? Would it throw off the viewer for a second - being an idiom many might be unfamiliar with?

[lomeando]

I'm appalled at option 3, as well as by the number of people that actually voted for it.

This is a very simple concept: Do not insult the intelligence of your audience. Because that is precisely what it is, an insult. First off, if you assume your audience will not understand something nor not "feel comfortable", you will always be wrong. Someone out there would have understood, someone out there would've appreciated the cultural differences, rather than feel "uncomfortable". How comfort has any bearing, I have no idea. I was always told it is challenge and conflict that are engaging.

There may be plenty of people out there who will not understand, but this just means they are ignorant, not stupid. Ignorance can be cured. Have you never re-read a book you first read as a child, and been amazed at the layers of subtext and meaning that you did not even suspect existed before? The book did not change; you did. After a few years of watching anime, your supposedly ignorant audience will be much more familiar with customs, traditions, idioms, etc., and they will not want their hands held. But you can't go back and fix your translation. Your audience learns; your audience grows. If, perchance, they encounter something they don't understand, they can look it up! Or they can stop trying to pretend they're interested in Japanese culture and go watch Cartoon Network.

In short: if you cater to an ignorant audience, you insult those who aren't ignorant, and one day those who are may learn enough to be insulted, too; if you cater to an intelligent audience, you reward those who aren't ignorant, and perhaps motivate those who are to improve themselves.

Having dealt with option 3, I tend to try to avoid option 2 as well, because it relies solely on the translator or editors' understanding of what the author intended to say. This has gotten me into trouble in the past. I missed a reference, changed something I thought was innocuous, and got complaints from people who knew better, and rightly so. You'll never avoid this problem entirely, but you can certainly work to reduce it.

[Quarkboy]

This has really turned into an interseting thread....

Let's throw another one of mine into the fray, and see what people think.

It actually happens RIGHT before the now infamous chocolate line, after Nagisa is informed that the chocolate is FREE, she says
"Yatta! Ittadakimasu!"
and takes a box. Now often a group would leave ittadakimasu untranslated, perhaps with a note, or would translate it as "Let's eat", "Thanks for the food" or something like that. In this case I felt none of that worked, since Nagisa had no intention of eating the chocolate there on the street. In fact, the literal translation would be "I'll take this". This of course, in no way express the JOY in which she says this line, and loses frankly all the meaning behind it. I chose to translate this line as

"Alright! Free chocolate!"

Totally non-literal... I was thinking in this vein, Nagisa is acting in this scene like the proverbial "kid in a candy store". Were an english speaking kid presented with this situation, the joyful exclamation of obtaining said chocolate wouldn't be "I'll take this!" but in fact would be something more like "Free chocolate!". Here the literal translation fails IMO because it conveys a completely different TONE then the original.
Those people who cringe at hearing one thing and reading another will probably hate this even more then my previous line.

You might argue, for instance, that this joy I'm trying to portray in the translation is already conveyed through the sound of Nagisa's voice, and that even without a knowledge of japanese it is evident, and therefore unnecessary to modify your translation to express it. I have always felt that any translation should stand alone, even without the sound. What do other people think?

[Lina Inverse]

Originally Posted by Quarkboy

Again, I site an example:

A literal translation was something like "I like chocolate so much I hope I am reborn as a chocolate!"

The notion of reincarnation is prevalent and common in eastern culture, but in western culture (the primary audience for english fansubs) it is often viewed as somewhat odd, and that statement probably would seem like a really dumb thing to say (even more so than to a japanese person).

I chose to translate it as: "I like chocolate so much I hope that heaven is made of chocolate!"

Completely nonliteral, but I feel it conveys the intended meaning (that she really really really loves chocolate) to the intended audience (namely, westerners) better than the literal translation.

Now this a prime example of a very bad translation
You arbitrarily change what is said, distorting the meaning, removing buddhist views and imposing christian views onto the viewers
If I would find a translator of some fansub group doing this bs, this would be a clear sign for me to drop it like a hot potato (who knows how much other arbitrary changes there still are) and never touch anything of this group again!
If it need be, a footnote can be included, or a notice at the very beginning, but arbitrary changes are urusenai! (unforgivable)

[Lina Inverse]

Ok, I'll contribute my 2 cents also to this post (Euro cents, which are clearly more worth than dollar cents! )

Originally Posted by Quarkboy

It actually happens RIGHT before the now infamous chocolate line, after Nagisa is informed that the chocolate is FREE, she says
"Yatta! Ittadakimasu!"
and takes a box. Now often a group would leave ittadakimasu untranslated, perhaps with a note, or would translate it as "Let's eat", "Thanks for the food" or something like that. In this case I felt none of that worked, since Nagisa had no intention of eating the chocolate there on the street. In fact, the literal translation would be "I'll take this". This of course, in no way express the JOY in which she says this line, and loses frankly all the meaning behind it. I chose to translate this line as

"Alright! Free chocolate!"

Not quite as bad as the previous line, but still an ugly and arbitrary change
The most you could do here is "Hooray! Let's eat!". This further enhances the joy about finding the chocolate which is already conveyed by the voice.
Of course she has an intention to eat the chocolate! You don't have any joy in getting chocolate if you don't intend to eat it!
She might not eat it right on the spot, but she'll definitely eat it.

[babbito2k]

Originally Posted by Lina Inverse

an ugly and arbitrary change

If you have been reading the posts you should realize that "arbitrary" does not apply to these lines. That word implies that no thought went into the decisions made, whereas Quarkboy has carefully explained the thinking involved.

[Quarkboy]

Originally Posted by Lina Inverse

Ok, I'll contribute my 2 cents also to this post (Euro cents, which are clearly more worth than dollar cents! )

Not quite as bad as the previous line, but still an ugly and arbitrary change
The most you could do here is "Hooray! Let's eat!". This further enhances the joy about finding the chocolate which is already conveyed by the voice.
Of course she has an intention to eat the chocolate! You don't have any joy in getting chocolate if you don't intend to eat it!
She might not eat it right on the spot, but she'll definitely eat it.

But I claim in fact that that translation is simply WRONG. Nagisa is not using Itadakimasu in the sense of the traditional before meal saying, but is in fact using it as the humble form of morau, to recieve. To clarify, If nagisa spoke the complete sentence, she would have said: "Yatta! Watashi wa anata ni kono choco wo itadakimasu" which is the humble form of "Kono choco wo moraimasu", I receive chocolate. The notion of eating anything is nowhere in the original japanese text.

Say for instance, that it wasn't chocolate at all that she was taking, but a coupon for free chocolate. The original japanese text could stay exactly the same, but your translation would have to be changed to make sense.

[K_R]

I've been thinking, why do you people even care? It's not like you know Japanese to be able to tell the difference or even understand the implicit Japanese meaning to certain phrases, thus ruling out literal translations. And if you did know Japanese, why are you wasting time waiting for a fansub?

As a (former) translator, I think to myself, what is the most natural way to express, in English, what the character is saying. It has to flow well and read as if it was written in natural English. If you want to go literal, might as well sub the thing in Japanese, because it's not going to make much sense.

Quarkboy has the right idea about it, here. Although, I would probably not use the same words as he did. Maybe "I love chocolate so much, I wish I could be chocolate!" Makes more sense to a western viewer and retains the implicit meaning (being chocolate).

By the way, "All right" is two words.

[SirCanealot]

Originally Posted by K_R

By the way, "All right" is two words.

And, "Alright" is, well... one ^^

[AnimeOni]

Originally Posted by K_R

I've been thinking, why do you people even care? It's not like you know Japanese to be able to tell the difference or even understand the implicit Japanese meaning to certain phrases, thus ruling out literal translations. And if you did know Japanese, why are you wasting time waiting for a fansub?

As a (former) translator, I think to myself, what is the most natural way to express, in English, what the character is saying. It has to flow well and read as if it was written in natural English. If you want to go literal, might as well sub the thing in Japanese, because it's not going to make much sense.

Quarkboy has the right idea about it, here. Although, I would probably not use the same words as he did. Maybe "I love chocolate so much, I wish I could be chocolate!" Makes more sense to a western viewer and retains the implicit meaning (being chocolate).

By the way, "All right" is two words.

Also, as a former translater myself, I prefer the literal sense and sometimes I place both meanings and let the encoder decide how to do it. Some groups provides both translation on the subs and let people decide what they want.