2009-08-26, 02:28 | Link #1001 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2005
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2009-08-26, 02:41 | Link #1002 |
Koh nara dekiru!!!
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: August 17th - 31st
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"I close my eyes, only for a moment, and the moment's gone
All my dreams, pass before my eyes, a curiosity Dust in the wind, all they are is dust in the wind. Same old song, just a drop of water in an endless sea All we do, crumbles to the ground, though we refuse to see Dust in the wind, all we are is dust in the wind Don't hang on, nothing lasts forever but the earth and sky It slips away, all your money won't another minute buy Dust in the wind, All we are is dust in the wind" |
2009-08-26, 10:23 | Link #1005 | ||
Member
Join Date: Feb 2009
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Second, yes, Light didn't want to inspire vigilantes - that was just an obvious repercussion of his actions which he was too deluded to notice. But seriously, people look up to their idols and follow their examples. Kira wasn't just a hero to these people, he was worshipped like a god - and he himself wanted to be seen as such. And didn't he take the mantle of L so that he could both eliminate the chance of the police catching onto him, and so that he could have access to higher-ranked criminals that he couldn't get access to beforehand? Third, that's a freakin' pathetic way of showing your principle, as taking the law into his own hands is exactly what Light does. If he really cared about law and order, he'd have stuck to working hard within the system to improve it and make things better. All you did was point out why Light's plan couldn't have worked in any world other than a disgustingly cynical one. Quote:
If Death Note means anything, it means a criticism of our affluent society, and how isolated and excessively introverted we have become. To that end, naturally, you are correct in that the improvements in the world have come with a negative. But it's quite easy to fix; just stick your head outdoors and say hello to people. Be friendly, get involved in communities and the like. Heck, even chatting on a forum or blog is opening up. And those who actually completely isolate themselves are, thankfully, in a small minority.
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2009-09-12, 21:45 | Link #1006 |
Eternity Wish
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Above the Sky
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Let's look at one of the greatest ethical dilemmas ever proposed - the trolley problem: (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethical_dilemma)
If a trolley is hurtling down a track towards 5 people. You are on a bridge under which it will pass, and you can stop it by dropping a heavy weight in front of it. As it happens, there is a very fat man next to you - your only way to stop the trolley is to push him over the bridge and onto the track, killing him to save five. The further development of this example involves the case, where the fat man is, in fact, the villain who put these 5 people in peril. Should you proceed? In this instance, pushing the villain to his death, especially to save 5 innocent people seems not just moral but to some, imperative and just. A utilitarian view asserts that it would be not only permissible, but, morally speaking, the better option (the other option being no action at all). It might also be justifiable to consider that simply being present in this situation and being able to influence its outcome constitutes an obligation to participate. If this were the case, then deciding to do nothing would be considered an immoral act.
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2009-09-13, 03:48 | Link #1007 |
Banned
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^ The above question assumes that it is all about numbers. Kill a few to save many. Yet, there are people more usefull to society than others. A thousand beggers offer less to the world than a single small factory manager.
Also, it assumes that it is evil to kill and the killer must be punished or it will repeat itself. |
2009-09-13, 05:40 | Link #1008 | ||
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Join Date: Jul 2009
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2009-11-15, 19:47 | Link #1009 |
Junior Member
Join Date: Nov 2009
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i see light's intentions, absolutely i do, but what he fails to realize is that people can change.
he killed them off before they could pay for their crimes and become better people. and maybe the jail system we have now doesn't change people like that. what we need to do is find a way to do that. there is a reason why someone commits a crime. sometimes it's not even their fault. sure they made the choice to do it, but most times it was a greater influence than what it seems. :/ society needs to change, but not in kira's way. light was smart, but failed to realize everyone is human. |
2009-12-13, 21:08 | Link #1012 | |
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Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: United States--- California
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2010-05-08, 01:23 | Link #1013 |
Junior Member
Join Date: May 2010
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Here's my theory the only reason why humanity isn't perfect because it would be boring with everyone acting the same!!!! God gave us choices whether good or bad. If you pick a bad choice, you eventually learn from your lesson. Plus, Kira said he could be god??? Newsflash!!!!! Kira can destroy lifes while God can destroy AND create lives OR give second chances. While Kira it's just one chance and you're a gonner. Again it would be boring if everyone were perfect acting like little robots. God gave us FEELINGS and CHOICES. If Kira did succeed, everyone will start to act like mindless robots. NOTHING is 100%
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2010-05-08, 02:04 | Link #1014 | |
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Thus, Kira was wrong. He was no god, he was no divine punisher. He was a cocky arsehole who wanted to feel superior by having power over life and death... on the expense of everyone else. |
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2010-05-15, 10:28 | Link #1015 |
O_O
Join Date: Oct 2006
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I think this difference of opinion is basically because people have different premises. For example, I do not think that god certainly exists. I have an open mind to the possibility, but I don't see any reason as to believe blindly that he does. I believe we are all just physics, chemical reactions, etc - our thoughts and reactions to situations included.
So, from my point of view, there is no right or wrong, some people are just more capable of either convincing people to be in a certain way or forcing people to obey their rules ('cause he can). I would be one of the people who would like Kira, since his ideas of who should live or die are similar to mine (rapists, war-lords, assassins), although I would have to have a bit more proof of what they did rather than just a "the police caught him and they say he's a murderer". What I would not like about him would be the fact that, if he got too scared that someone was too curious, he would kill the person, which would be a problem if he got neurotic and started thinking everyone was on him. But, I hardly would be able to do anything, as I am not near as smart as him, and I would never get close to who he was. Then, there are the people who don't like what he does. From his point of view, the ones who object to him (at least from what I remember) peacefully wouldn't make a difference, and wouldn't die or anything, they would just ramble. The ones who defied his rules (rapists, pedophiles, etc) would die. And then there would be the ones who are smart enough to get close to him - these would be rare, and probably die along the way, but it's a risk when taking down someone so powerful. In the end, I believe there is no absolute right or wrong, there is no ultimate justice, people just do what they think is right and some are better at changing people's minds or forcing people to obey them than others. |
2010-05-16, 18:15 | Link #1017 |
anime freak
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Brazil
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I think in real life Kira wouldn't be so sucessfull. A single human's perception is too small to be able to track all criminals.
Criminals + cops also would do something so Kira wouldn't be able to track criminals, like hiding their identities or prohibing media covering. Kira would have hard time tracking common criminals, not to say the elusive ones. And people would have fear of being notorious, and not of commiting crimes. Even if Kira would have found a way to keep well informed, the result would be nothing more nothing else than living in a government where cops would execute people without trials. People would live in fear of police and media, and crimes wouldn't end. |
2010-05-16, 18:23 | Link #1018 |
O_O
Join Date: Oct 2006
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But that's just it: he did what HE thought was right, and fought till the end to do it. He betrayed, cheated, did everything that most of us consider horrible, but in his mind (and maybe the minds of others) it was the right thing to do.
L did what people who feel opressed do (or think of doing) - try to find a way to reinstate the right order of things, in his point of view, even at the risk of his own life. Light might have felt opressed by society, and found the means to put the world "on the right path". If there were a world-dictator, who had the power to do whatever he wanted, and 95% of the world agreed with his ways. Suppose you were in the 5%. What would you do? Your options would be either accept that "that's the way things are" or try to do something about it, in which case your best bet would be try to unite with some people that also don't like the reality they are in. These must also be very trustworthy, so as not to tell on you because of fear. Then, you would try to overpower the dictator, be it convincing the world that you are right or by force. Great, let's suppose that you managed to beat the guy and your idea of a perfect world is now reality. The thing is, the situation above is the same for any "right" and "wrong". The 95% of the world could be agreeing with either Light or with L. You could be a "Jesus-like" guy, and be fighting against "what is wrong", or you could be a dictator, fighting against "what is wrong". The one who finds a way to convince people or force them to do what he thinks is right would be the "winner". I am not saying that it's useless to do anything, just that I think the argument "it's the right thing to do" should be changed to "in my point of view, it's the right thing to do". I'm not excusing what he did (as I don't agree with everything he did, so I do think he was wrong in many aspects) nor am I invalidating any ideas of right or wrong, whichever they are. @hierophant I actually think that most of the World would agree with eliminating rapists, pedophiles, psicopathic murderers, etc. Especially if they were victims. It is true, people would not be afraid of commiting crimes, only of the crime appearing in media - but for you to think that it's not any divine power eliminating people (divine power which would be all-knowing and omnipresent), you would have to be pretty smart. You would have to realize what L first realized in the story - what is needed to kill. This would require some access to police archives and such. The one who realizes this could not reveal his knowledge in public, because of the risk of being killed, so this would limit a lot of his actions, and so on. Being from a country where there are lot's of bad people, I only think most people would be against Kira if they knew it was a person and not a god, and if he started killing innocent people. Otherwise, most people would think it was great that something was eliminating assassins, rapists, etc. Personally, I'm pro-kill in regards to confirmed pedophiles, rapists, emotionally unstable assassins (at least for now, that a cure is not possible). See that there is a "confirmed" condition in what I said, as there has to be undeniable evidence of the person doing the crime, and he MUST have done the crime. A person who had pedophile-desires but doesn't act on them, and asks for help - I don't think he should die, since he was able to control himself and ask for help. In cases of "I saw him do it" or anything like that, I don't think the death penalty should be blindly dealt, as there are many false statements. As for the rest of the situations - it is a very long discussion that I think would be off-topic. And I do agree with you about the government-censorship, the difference would be that it would be difficult to not-believe that there was a God eliminating people. Plus you would have to evade people who would be pro-Kira, as they would probably tell on you. Last edited by Slave0fLife; 2010-05-16 at 18:49. Reason: +response to hierophant |
2010-05-17, 06:10 | Link #1019 |
Banned
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In Kira's world, anyone condemned by a court is the same as being sentenced to death.
Anyone openly not agreeing with him is sentenced to death. Anyone who worships him in a way he doesn't fancy is sentenced to death. Any girl getting close to Light is sentenced to death. Anyone being at the wrong time at the wrong place is sentenced to death. Anyone Kira doesn't like the way he looks is sentenced to death. (random words) is sentenced to death. Where is the justice in all this? Nowhere. Except if what a delusional megalomaniac with God syndrome and complete lack of sympathy for human life thinks it's right, counts as justice. ...which doesn't. |
2010-05-17, 11:00 | Link #1020 | |
O_O
Join Date: Oct 2006
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Usually, since no one has god-like powers, the only way to impose your ideas of right and wrong is to gain power by manipulating/convincing/joining people who have beliefs similar to your own - the more people there are, the more powerful the idea is, and it is then more likely to be established as a rule. I say impose because it is very rare to find someone who agrees with you on everything, and any "punishment" you give to someone because he/she thinks differently would be imposing. The "cheat" with Light is that he found a way to impose his ideas of right and wrong (be them megalomaniac as they were) without the need for anyone else. Today, democracy is usually the system used because the number of people counts to gain power. But, essentialy, power is what really counts. If you gain power to do anything you want, and no one could touch you or do anything even though they wanted to, you could establish "the new world" as you wished - be it leaving it like it is now, making minor changes or even making major changes. Just a reminder, I don't agree with most of what Light did. I just know that I would probably die trying to find a way to fight against him, since he had much more power and was a lot more intelligent than I am. Would my death while trying to defeat him be wrong? To me, it certainly would, but to him, it would not. But in the end, both of us would be trying to fight for what we believe in with what we have - the problem is I would have lost |
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