Penguin Drum - Episode 24 (END) Discussion / Poll

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by Kirarakim

Well even if this is all true and Shouma didn't want to sacrifice himself for Himari (and I am not sure I entirely agree but I don't entirely disagree either). I do think Shouma's Penguin was leading him to Ringo but not necessarily leading him away from Himari (who is still his sister) Just trying to show Shouma there was someone there specifically for him.

The penguin wasn't trying to do anything. The penguin was just a reflection of his heart. And what the penguin revealed about Shouma was that despite his best intentions (and Shouma certainly was a guy of good intention) his heart just wasn't into it. Into anything really. He was apathetic as fuck in general.

At the end he changed, of course, but whether he would have sacrificed himself for Himari is irrelevant, because only Kanba's light could save Himari. Shouma had light of his own but that light wouldn't have saved Himari because it was meant for someone else.

Shouma at the end understood this better than anyone, and that's why he chose to give back Kanba's "apple", to trust Kanba and believe that he would definitely save Himari.

[YayPepsi]

But for the most part he was just following on his brother. Shouma gives a few examples of this in the last episode: it was Kanba who had the idea of painting the house, and it was also Kanba who made a point of doing everything they could to make sure Himari would always smile.

I really liked that reveal. I always liked that little scene of them painting the house, but I like it even more now that I know that it was Kanba's idea. He always lived for Himari - he was so selfless when he was young, and he just wanted to see her smiling face. In fact, as a kid, he was selfless with pretty much everyone - Masako and Mario, giving Shouma half his apple, running out in the storm with Kenzan. It's tragic that such a kind young boy got so corrupted later in his life.

Anyhow, I pretty much agree with Kazu-kun. It was Kanba's goal much more than Shouma's goal to save Himari. After all, Himari was Kanba's world and his light. I don't think she had the same amount of importance for Shouma, though he loved her a lot as his sister and he wanted her to live.

[Utsuro no Hako]

"Apathetic" isn't the right word for Shouma. In the first episode, he's the one who flies into a rage at Himari's death, not Kanba. But although he thinks it's unfair, he's also resigned to it because he believes they're being punished for Kenzan and Chiemi's sins. The Princess of the Crystal is just prolonging the punishment by resurrecting Himari and Kanba's actions are only adding further crimes. He's a child who's been beaten so often that he just wants to retreat into a corner and be left alone.

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by Utsuro no Hako

"Apathetic" isn't the right word for Shouma.

I think it works, specially for what his penguin showed about him. For example, remember when Ringo fell into the pond back in episode 4? That was a pretty funny penguin joke, but moments like this showed there was a part of Shou that didn't care as much as he seemed to.

You're right that most of his inner apathy comes from being beaten by life so much, but it doesn't change the fact that there was always a part his heart that just wasn't into it.

In fact, the first time his penguin actually worked in sync with him is when he saved Ringo from the car. In that moment, his penguin threw itself in front of the car along with him, to save Ringo. Leaving aside the last episode, that was the only time when Shou's heart and actions where truly in sync.

[Kirarakim]

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

The penguin wasn't trying to do anything. The penguin was just a reflection of his heart. And what the penguin revealed about Shouma was that despite his best intentions (and Shouma certainly was a guy of good intention) his heart just wasn't into it. Into anything .

So the Penguin is a reflection of himself/his heart and it was his heart leading him to Ringo. That doesn't contradict what I said.

Anyways I see the whole connection between Shouma/Ringo & Kanba/Himari & I am not denying it but I guess where I disagree with you & Yay Pepsi is that everything is about these two pairings in the story (although I understand you guys aren't specifically saying this either)

Whereas Ringo might have been the PD for Shouma & Himari for Kanba. I think the importance is the connections formed between all the characters.

I do not think because Himari was Kanba's Penguindrum, that Ikuhara is denying that Shouma was Himari's. And I also think that what Kanba did for Shouma was important to Shouma too. I know you disagree but I think what they all shared really did make them siblings even if just in a metaphorical sense. Hence why I think it is important in the end that while Ringo's scar is from Shouma & Himari's from Kanba, the note to Himari is from both her brothers.

And while it's true it was Kanba's idea to paint the house, he convinces Shouma when he mentions it's for Himari. And when they are talking about their memories it's the memories of all 3.

I can take it further and say Ringo's love for Himari is also imprtant, as it was her words that initiated the fate transfer to save Himari.

Masako also has a connection with Kanba and her younger brother (and Masako was able to reach out to Himari to help save Kanba)

I think all these relationships are important in the end. Hence while I am sad Shouma & Ringo are separated, I know Shouma & Kanba have each other & Himari & Ringo have each other and I do believe these connections are important to the characters too.


Because I believe what Ikuhara was ultimately saying its our connections with other people that get us out that box, not just one "fated" person.

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by Kirarakim

Anyways I see the whole connection between Shouma/Ringo & Kanba/Himari & I am not denying it but I guess where I disagree with you & Yay Pepsi is that everything is about these two pairings in the story. Whereas Ringo might have been the PD for Shouma & Himari for Kanba. I think the importance is the connections formed between all the characters.

I don't know about Yay Pepsi, but I don't disagree with this. I just see it from a different angle (read below)

Originally Posted by Kirarakim

I do not think because Himari was Kanba's Penguindrum, that Ikuhara is denying that Shouma was Himari's.

Of course not, but it wasn't the "penguindrum" that could save Himari's life. That penguidrum was Kanba's. It just so happened that half of it was inside Shou. Well, it wasn't a coincidence (read below)

Originally Posted by Kirarakim

And I also think that what Kanba did for Shouma was important to Shouma too.

Of course it was. Without it, Shouma would have "died", in the same way Himari was "dying".

Originally Posted by Kirarakim

And while it's true it was Kanba's idea to paint the house, he convinces Shouma when he mentions it's for Himari. And when they are talking about their memories it's the memories of all 3.

That scene exemplifies the metaphor of "Kanba and Shouma sharing the apple" perfectly. Kanba convinces Shouma to do things for Himari = Kanba sharing his "apple Himari" with Shouma. And that gave Shouma a reason to live for, which was what he lacked. That's how I see it.

Originally Posted by Kirarakim

I can take it further and say Ringo's love for Himari is also imprtant, as it was her words that initiated the fate transfer to save Himari.

I agree, but I see it from a metaphorical perspective. Ringo's love for Himari inspired Shouma to believe in Kanba, which make the "miracle" possible. For me, that's what her "spell" means.

Originally Posted by Kirarakim

Because I believe what Ikuhara was ultimately saying its our connections with other people that get us out that box, not just one "fated" person.

I agree. Didn't I say that Shouma needed to believe in Kanba so that Kanba could believe in himself? And didn't I say that what inspired Shouma to believe in Kanba was Ringo's love (for him and for Himari).

All those are connections between people. I just see it from a more symbolic point of view. But we're not exactly disagreeing IMO.

[Kirarakim]

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

All those are connections between people. I just see it from a more symbolic point of view. But we're not exactly disagreeing IMO.

Perhaps not and maybe I am just misinterpreting what you are saying. And of course I do believe Ikuhara's works are purposely open to interpretation. I think Ikuhara would want us to discuss the series like this.

Anyways I think we largely agree about most things (and I know you were my Shouma/Ringo partner in crime ) so disagreeing about a few interpretations is no big deal.

[YayPepsi]

I don't know about Yay Pepsi, but I don't disagree with this. I just see it from a different angle (read below)

Same here. (I don't really have anything to add to what you said though, you pretty much said it all and I agree. )

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by Kirarakim

and I know you were my Shouma/Ringo partner in crime

I'm still are. I will ship these two for life!!!!

[Akiyoshi]

I barely understand a lot of stuff from the ginale but it was somehow touching as hell(or heaven?), like somewhere inside me i can understand what's happening but my coucnsious mind is unable to explain it.

A powerfull ending to a very weird series. I'll miss this little gem xD

[Utsuro no Hako]

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

I think it works, specially for what his penguin showed about him. For example, remember when Ringo fell into the pond back in episode 4? That was a pretty funny penguin joke, but moments like this showed there was a part of Shou that didn't care as much as he seemed to.

You're right that most of his inner apathy comes from being beaten by life so much, but it doesn't change the fact that there was always a part his heart that just wasn't into it.

And yet Shouma did save Ringo from drowning, and his actions throughout the first half of the series were directed at helping her, even at the expense of the quest for the Penguin Drum. He could do that because she's not a Takakura and doesn't share the curse Kenzan and Chiemi brought upon the family. That changed once he found out about Momoka and started to believe that Ringo was just another part of the punishment.

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by Utsuro no Hako

And yet Shouma did save Ringo from drowning.

No one was denying that. All I was saying is how his penguin showed that a part of him didn't care, and that's true.

[Crontica]

So Sanetoshi is a symbolism for Despair + Natural Disintegration

While Momoka is a symbolism for Magic + Transmutation, so what ever that diary contained was the trigger for numerous instances hey Triple H has a matching blood type for Himari! Or the brothers stumbling across a powerful book, sealing a deal with the devil, etc etc.

[lovestapler]

Oh my gosh. I can't believe it's over. No more Penguindrum Thursdays. D:

That said, the ending was so perfect. I love everything about this series. Easily one of my all time favourites. I'm always going to be searching for the next Penguindrum. (':

[Stealther]

The diary represented Ringo's penguin drum, her purpose of life. To become Momoka and get loved. Overall the penguindrum is mostly depicted as love/being loved in this series. Without a purpose in life you're not alive. Yuri's lost purpose was also connected to the diary, Momoka.

That's why the hat said the diary is PERHAPS the penguin drum. It is a purpose of life, but not necessarily the brothers' purpose. They had to find their own.

[Akiyoshi]

Originally Posted by Stealther

The diary represented Ringo's penguin drum, her purpose of life. To become Momoka and get loved. Overall the penguindrum is mostly depicted as love/being loved in this series. Without a purpose in life you're not alive. Yuri's lost purpose was also connected to the diary, Momoka.

That's why the hat said the diary is PERHAPS the penguin drum. It is a purpose of life, but not necessarily the brothers' purpose. They had to find their own.

Going by this train of tought Ringo is a hundred times more Badass than i tought, she got her purpouse in life effectively destroyed in Ep. 23 and she suffered deeply and desperate in a last effort to protect it, and, despite failing, despite having her penguindrum destroyed between her very own hands she steps up and go confronting Sanetoshi one last time. She may not have brawns but GOD that girl have GUTS!

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by Akiyoshi

Going by this train of tought Ringo is a hundred times more Badass than i tought, she got her purpouse in life effectively destroyed in Ep. 23 and she suffered deeply and desperate in a last effort to protect it, and, despite failing, despite having her penguindrum destroyed between her very own hands she steps up and go confronting Sanetoshi one last time. She may not have brawns but GOD that girl have GUTS!

The thing is that by the time it's destroyed, the diary is not her penguindrum anymore. I mean, at the beginning Ringo's purpose is indeed to become Momoka and be loved, but by the end of the series she's a totally different person, who instead of becoming Momoka just wants to be herself, and instead of being loved, is more concerned on giving love to others.

So yeah, I agree she's got a lot of guts, but more than that, she's got a very big HEART!

[Iron Maw]

Wonderful ending! Like some others in this thread, I don't completely understand what happened in this episode (as well the series in as whole), but the general idea is clear me. I don't think can say much then everyone else has.

I one thing I'm wondering about is the bit about Sanetoshi's past in the medical field. Perhaps some a event or events that in happened around that time might provide some insight into how came to his ideology and further leading him to terrorism.

[risingstar3110]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

In the end, Kanba and Shouma had each other. Their brotherly bond was reconstituted. Their sacrifice was both necessitated by the tragedies arising from family abandonment, but also helped to give Himari a family (and a close friend in Ringo, who is perhaps a sister-like figure to Himari now).

In their final acts, we see both the sad tragedies that can arise from familial abandonment and divisions, but also a hopeful message in how a new family (at least of sorts) can arise out of the ashes, as it did for Himari.

If you view the ending through this lens, I think it makes good sense thematically, and ties in nicely with everything that came before.


Ikuhara himself is not particularly fond of shipping. IIRC, he quipped that he wanted to kill off Tuxedo Kamen to keep him away from Sailor Moon, but Tuxedo Kamen had this habit of continuously coming back. Well, in MPD, he had his chance to kill off the male half of two prominent shippings, and he took it.

But again, this anime was never really about romantic love, but rather about familial love, and the importance of family in general.

Finally have time to watch this, and i definitely agree with the last line.

One of the main drive for everything in this anime is romantic love, from Kanba toward Himari,from Ringo toward Tabuki and later on Shouma. But by the end it's no longer matter. The brothers on their trips traveling through the galaxy (bromance!!) after sacrificing their life for what they loved and believed. Himari and Ringo are left behind, however are connected with the bonding by Shouma and Kanba, which clearly was assimilated to Tabuki and Yuri toward the ending.

Kissing and romantic feeling somehow no longer matter, once they all loved each other quite the same

Edit: btw, i think the apple sharing between Kan and Sho was actually apple sharing, literally the fruit of fate. Also, it was Shouma returning his favour in the end, as he was sacrificed in Ringo's place to stop Kanba from the point of no return. It really all comes back as a full circle

Edit 2:i don't think #3 left the note btw, it was Kan and Shou back when they sew back the teddy bear

[molitar]

Sorry this ending just plain sucked.. penguin hearts being apples.. apples representing fate.. penguin drum is an apple.. WTF? The symbolism of Love here is awful.. love and be FORGOTTEN! Become a NOBODY! NOBODY remembers you! WTF???

That is what the ending put out! Nothing more nothing less! Sorry but Love is to be remembered! To sacrifice and share in hopes and pains together! And when your gone you are remembered! The writer of this novel has a SICK view of Love reading all this crap symbolism! Because that is the ONLY thing this story put out! Fate can not be changed! Definitely an atheist because accepting Christ in your heart changes our FATE! We get salvation. Love means to sacrifice onself and be forgotten! Sorry but Christ was not forgotten, my father that passed away was not forgotten, as well as all the others I know that passed away.

So even trying to put some Christian view into this story does not work for me because the ending was just plain sick! It did not give hope but only gives despair. This anime gets the deleted from me because they sacrificed themselves to save the others to only be forgotten??? That is just too SICK of a story for myself.. the ending was painful.