Macross Delta - Episode 24 Discussion / Poll

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by magnuskn

This episode is stupid. Windermere is stupid. This entire show is stupid.

Now suddenly Heinz has limits on his powers? When he could just declare war without consulting anyone?

As far as limits go, they looked pretty self-imposed.

Even now, though, I'm having trouble hating on Heinz.

He's quiet, obedient, polite. All great - and rare - qualities in a child. Shame he's the absolute ruler of a planet.

I'll grant that he may not be very intelligent, but honestly, at his age? "There are bad guys, let's superweapon them in the face till there are no more bad guys" might have made perfect sense to me. And he does seem more involved in, well, his own loneliness than in the larger picture of what his country (and what are nominally his government and his army) are doing, but again, child.

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by magnuskn

But what a waste of a Macross show. I really have to question what the hell Kawamori was going for and where it went wrong.

I wouldn't blame the guy so much. Almost every magazine article or interview on the show indicates most of his ideas were rejected or re-worked into something completely different. He's mostly in the project for his name, and to do storyboards for fight or concert scenes.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Tempester

Aside from Roid (who's definitely the big bad Grace-equivalent of Delta) and the heavily indoctrinated shitters like Bogue and the twins, I doubt Kawamori is aiming for the Windermereans to be the type of absolutely irredeemably terrible villains that you're supposed to love seeing BTFO'd by the heroes.

You're probably right. It probably says a lot that they've managed to make me loathe a little pre-teen shouta that's been presented as a serious character.

Still, I only need to squint a little bit to see Delta as a decently entertaining 80s Saturday Morning cartoon aimed at kids. That's probably more simplistic than a Macross show should be, but whatever, just give Freyja and Hayate and Mirage and Walkure good endings, and let the villains eat their just desserts, and I'll be happy.

Originally Posted by magnuskn

Still, at least Kawamori ain't exactly softening the Windermerans up for the great group-hug finale of the show, so maybe it won't end all with flowers and aces for them. That would please me greatly.

1. Roid should go, by death or imprisonment for war crimes.

2. Heinz should be removed from power, or reduced to a pure figurehead with actual responsible adults running Windermere.

3. Windermere should be occupied by NUN, or in the event of Total Savior Freyja, she can rule the planet if she wants.

4. I want to see at least one Aerial Knight go down in the next two episodes.

1 I'm confident will happen. 2 and 3 I'm not so sure of, but it's possible. 4 will probably happen, but it might just be Herman, which would be a little disappointing since Keith and Bogue and the brothers would deserve it a little more (a lot more in Bogue's case).

[HirouKeimou]

Ironically, while Frontier had it's main girls for a selling point, Delta has its music as it's main selling point; so there's a plus. In fact, I will not be surprised if the next album sells out like the first did.

People in Japan complain about the series in general like us, however, sales of the Blu-Rays and albums is contradicting it. Of course, people could be only buying the Blu-Rays for the first 13 episodes...

[magnuskn]

Seriously? Frontiers music was heads and shoulders above the really not that good music (as a totality, there are individually one or two songs which are really good) of Delta. I'm pretty sure that comparisons between sales numbers of Frontier to Delta albums would actually favor Frontier, since the series had pretty fantastic sales overall for its media.

[Darthtabby]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

As far as limits go, they looked pretty self-imposed.

Even now, though, I'm having trouble hating on Heinz.

He's quiet, obedient, polite. All great - and rare - qualities in a child. Shame he's the absolute ruler of a planet.

I'll grant that he may not be very intelligent, but honestly, at his age? "There are bad guys, let's superweapon them in the face till there are no more bad guys" might have made perfect sense to me. And he does seem more involved in, well, his own loneliness than in the larger picture of what his country (and what are nominally his government and his army) are doing, but again, child.

Heinz strikes me as wise behind his years, but too inclined to do what the adults around him say. He obviously cared about and wanted to understand why his enemies were fighting, but left judging them to elders who did not.

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by HirouKeimou

People in Japan complain about the series in general like us, however, sales of the Blu-Rays and albums is contradicting it. Of course, people could be only buying the Blu-Rays for the first 13 episodes...

If I'm not mistaken the second BD volume did around 7k. That's not good enough for a Macross show.

I think that's consistent with all the criticism this show is getting in Japan.

[Father Hentai]

Originally Posted by HirouKeimou

Regardless of the adults' choices of Windermere in the series, I'm concerned about how it'll end for the children of Windermere, especially if all of Windermere is punished or eliminated. It's one thing for killing those involved; however, I believe I'll be sick if babies or young children (ages 1 through 10, at most) are held responsible, too. So I hope a little bit of sympathy will be held for them...

Reminds me of my country. We (children and childrens children) are still blamed for killing millions of jews although we aren't even part of any nationalistic parties or have any ties to that past.

But it is our original sin.

[HirouKeimou]

Originally Posted by magnuskn

Seriously? Frontiers music was heads and shoulders above the really not that good music (as a totality, there are individually one or two songs which are really good) of Delta. I'm pretty sure that comparisons between sales numbers of Frontier to Delta albums would actually favor Frontier, since the series had pretty fantastic sales overall for its media.

I believe you're on soundtracks; I'm talking about vocal albums. Walküre Attack! hit gold on its first week; and I don't remember if Frontier ever even came close; and Frontier had three vocal albums. There's really no contest of which one is bigger on music sales.

Doesn't mean Frontier isn't good on vocal tracks (because I love a number of its songs).

Originally Posted by Father Hentai

Reminds me of my country. We (children and childrens children) are still blamed for killing millions of jews although we aren't even part of any nationalistic parties or have any ties to that past.

But it is our original sin.

Ironically, my country has racial issues of its own; if you live in a neighborhood occupied by Hispanic or Black people, you'll be ridiculed like it's a crime to live in your own country because they're blaming us, even now, even if we're not involved, for their countries having issues (or for prior issues/wars). Racial discrimination is a bitch, really.

[Thess]

This episode was... a mess. I would have liked it if the show didn't end in two episodes and there are millions of plot threads hanging. Of course, Chaos and Lady M are made suspicious again. Because we had so much resolution about Hayate's dad's bombing blues, so a new conspiracy is unveiled!!

I'm really, really into the side of the protoculture plot with Mikumo and Roid but it just seems wayyyy too late to get into it as bonus for everything else. I remember young Roid as a child said there was something he wanted to protect (was it the Star Singer legacy stolen later by Chaos, then?).

Two things that stood up as particularly terrible in this episode: those three stooges "juries" who were interfering with the trial, but it went well, at least, it'll take a bit of a push but it's set up. Heinz did reflect about how unhappy he is, but once again he's putting other views above his. He should take Keith's advice and follow his own wind, but I guess the three stooges served their purpose to give us shipping drama. I think they might want to make Heinz' moment of actually acting on his own feelings and singing with his heart instead because somebody tells him it's necessary a big deal (maybe relating to Keith).

The worst part I think is the "Herman becomes Mirage's stealth mentor" out of nowhere subplot. Excuse me? It's like they forgot Mirage had to solve her issues with flying by the book two episodes before the ending. So they slapped Herman on her case because he's the only guy in the goddamn cast (aside of Ernest) who is actually a trainer and great teacher, but the interaction came across as hilarious (specially with Herman scolding Mirage because she's not taking his advice instead of shooting her ass down during their battle ). It would have been a bit more organic if they (the trio) realized Herman is against Roid's plans and bonded, then Herman gives counsel, but not like this. I have no doubt Herman is the best teacher Mirage could ask for, but the way they went with it was badly written.

[Dash_Hunter]

Originally Posted by magnuskn

This episode is stupid. Windermere is stupid. This entire show is stupid.

Pretty much, I mean Hayate has been spouting nonsense for the past few episodes, almost every character is useless for the most part and their plans are really stupid. Like, you are saying that Mikumo is the one that can make the protoculture system explode, that's the whole point of the mission, and yet you let her go unguarded, just with Makina and Reina instead of going with Arad or at least Mirage who are soldiers that can protect her, these past 3 episodes were done just to let Roid get his hands on Mikumo.

Originally Posted by magnuskn

But what a waste of a Macross show. I really have to question what the hell Kawamori was going for and where it went wrong.

Kawamori wanted a completely different thing, teams of pilots aided by idols competing against eachother, no war, no windermere, no protoculture ruins, but the sponsors didn't liked it, so it was changed, and even when it was already changed they didn't follow all of his new ideas, like having Miarge be an ace like Messer.

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

If I'm not mistaken the second BD volume did around 7k. That's not good enough for a Macross show.

I think that's consistent with all the criticism this show is getting in Japan.

The days when anime sold 10k or more per volume are long gone, no anime is selling that much right now, Delta is doing as expected or even a little better than expected, the music is selling well and merchandise too apparently, but I expect a big drop in the sale numbers for the BD's after all of the the first cour's episodes are released.

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by Dash_Hunter

The days when anime sold 10k or more per volume are long gone, no anime is selling that much right now, Delta is doing as expected or even a little better than expected, the music is selling well and merchandise too apparently, but I expect a big drop in the sale numbers for the BD's after all of the the first cour's episodes are released.

With three episodes per volume, 7k doesn't even break even. I have serious doubts that's what they expected at the beginning. Though I'm sure it's not a surprise now considering how much complaint the series is getting. This number definitely reflects that.

But well, at least the music is still selling.

[Thess]

Originally Posted by magnuskn

This episode is stupid. Windermere is stupid. This entire show is stupid.

Now suddenly Heinz has limits on his powers? When he could just declare war without consulting anyone?

If you remember correctly, the one who declared war was Roid... who is the one running everything. Holy Knight, Prime Minister and Regent. Heinz is still a child, so he has the court handling things for him until he's older (and he spends most of his time unconscious in bed anyway). Heinz when he asks something he even says "I have a favor to ask". He doesn't order, he asks favors. Hell, he doesn't even think his opinion is worth anything. I'm sure the situation would have been different if Keith had become king, he wouldn't have let Roid pull this and take control, but he's not a child.

Anh_Minh lists very good points. You can see Hayate and Mirage turning to glare at everyone in that room, but they don't do this with Heinz. It was pretty obvious that he's a joyless manipulated kid who has never actually even done what he wanted in life (never actually sang with his heart and the idea was astonishing to him), and is (unknown to them) killing himself because the adults around him tell him that's what he has to do. It's blatant child abuse, but I doubt they'll point that out (I'll be pleased if they did). While I disliked the three 'wings', I actually liked the oppressive atmosphere of the trial. Heinz looks so small and trapped even in his own role. There is the seed of change planted but with the pressure there was no room to mull over it yet.

Delta needs more episodes. No way they can wrap this up well. Herman, Mirage's mentor stuff made me cringe.

[Triple_R]

I don't like hating on a kid, but still... Heinz has real power here, and at some level he must be aware of that (even Keith and Roid kneel before him). Given how short Windermerean lifespans are, and given the fact that his own father is dead, Heinz must have at least some understanding of death and of how war causes death. And Hayate, Freyja, and Mirage all said enough that it should have given Heinz serious pause and reflection.

Heinz probably isn't bloodthirsty, per se. He's probably choosing to wash his hands of things as much as possible, and defer to adults. But in the process, he is at least enabling terrible wrongdoing. I'm fine with Heinz meeting with a merciful fate, but he hasn't been a good King, in my view.

And there are acts and decisions that are so vile that I find the "but s/he's just a kid!" arguments hard to swallow.

[Stark700]

The Walkure despair ;_;

I wonder how Roid learned the weird phrase that triggers Mikumo to sing this episode. Hopefully they'll settle this whole Hayate and Keith rivalry soon, I can imagine one last battle for them.

Also I really hope Makina doesn't die. Freyja is also showing signs ...

[Thess]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

I don't like hating on a kid, but still... Heinz has real power here, and at some level he must be aware of that (even Keith and Roid kneel before him). Given how short Windermerean lifespans are, and given the fact that his own father is dead, Heinz must have at least some understanding of death and of how war causes death. And Hayate, Freyja, and Mirage all said enough that it should have given Heinz serious pause and reflection.

Does he, really? Roid answers to him or does Roid manipulates him into thinking he does? Because Roid even told him that his opinion didn't matter and he believed it. Did you forget they shove him into a position of power and war just after his father died and he didn't have any single emotional support to lean on? He couldn't even get to grieve his loss.

Heinz did pause and reflect, for the span of time we have in a show. If it was his call, they wouldn't have introduced three juries out nowhere and made his presence there like a wallflower. There's an ongoing arc of Heinz never actually doing what he wants to do or follow his heart. If he did, his song would have color. Call me crazy, but it seems his storyarc is for him to finally listen to his wind/heart/feelings, instead of playing sacrificial pawn to whatever Roid and others had told him to believe. To 'break free', in a sense. Because with all the wings symbolism surrounding the scene, Heinz resembles more and more a caged songbird than a fierce leading eagle.

If this happens, it won't be 't overnight, at least, it won't happen until we get a dramatic cue for it. And probably it'll be connected to Keith's actions.

Heinz probably isn't bloodthirsty, per se. He's probably choosing to wash his hands of things as much as possible, and defer to adults. But in the process, he is at least enabling terrible wrongdoing. I'm fine with Heinz meeting with a merciful fate, but he hasn't been a good King, in my view.

I don't think anyone agrees he's a good king, mostly because he's a sickly 9/10 years old whose father just died, his brother had refused to act as one, and the rest are either worshiping him as some kind of flawless god (thus not criticizing him for mistakes he would needed to smooth over) or telling him his opinions are meaningless while he agonizes on his death bed. Oh and he has to deal with some war situation without any experience.

I'm sure if he were older, the circumstances would be different, but he's a child who is obedient to adults and looks for guidance. And the adults he's surrounded with, except for a few, aren't very reliable.

And there are acts and decisions that are so vile that I find the "but s/he's just a kid!" arguments hard to swallow.

I disagree with you. But again, I don't see Heinz as a king leading a galactic war (where is the war, by the way? The scriptwriters and Heinz forgot about it because he questioned why the matters of the cluster are so important to people born outside of it like Hayate or Mirage. Did he forget about the galactic war declaration? It seems that way. God, the writing is just bad. I miss the first half of the show), I see him as a child being abused by adults who are using him as a weapon and killing him in the process.

[SleepingTerror]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

And there are acts and decisions that are so vile that I find the "but s/he's just a kid!" arguments hard to swallow.

Doesn't help he hasn't shown a single sign of feeling guilty or regretful. Sure, he might not actually have any power, but has he actually tried doing something? [no]
Any sympathy for him is but an excuse for his actions. I would legit feel bad if he felt bad. But he really hasn't shown much emotion for either side.

[Tempester]

Originally Posted by Thess

Delta needs more episodes. No way they can wrap this up well. Herman, Mirage's mentor stuff made me cringe.

It didn't need more episodes, it needed better time management and trimming of plot threads. Too many plot threads were introduced and then either abandoned completely or postponed so they could suddenly jam them in the last 2 episodes (because everyone likes rushed finales).

It's 2 episodes from the end and we haven't seen Lady M at all despite her being repeatedly referred to as a key player in the plot, yet they had the audacity to throw away 3 whole episodes with Mikumo in a coma and Chaos being uncooperative and still not reveal Lady M during that timeframe despite it being a perfect opportunity to do so.

And what happened with that conspiracy involving the evul NUNS higher-ups? Did they really spend tons of exposition and conflict on that and then just throw it away?

This is the same type of problem that Charlotte and several other original anime eventually fell victim to, bloating and diluting the plot by setting up too many extraneous subplots and postponing all of the actual plot thread conclusions for later. Do these staff not understand the appeal of balancing conflict and catharsis?

One of the great things about the first half of Delta was how snappy and satisfying some of the drama was, like how Hayate got over his first kill in one episode (instead of moping about for several episodes like what happened in the recent Chaos arc), and how Kaname got over Messer's death in the following episode. The second half of Delta just isn't as pleasant to watch because so many plot threads are being delayed for the GRAND (badly-paced) FINALE. We still have Herman firmly on the Windy side despite it being established for a long time that he's averse to the recent political decisions, we still have Bogue not either KIA or developed into a better character, we still have Heinz in his seemingly permanent state of slight doubt but lingering trust in the manipulative adults around him, we still have Keith wavering between disgust and respect for Roid like he was for most of the show, we still have Chaos being secretive and Lady M hiding somewhere, we still don't know if Berger is truly neutral or if he has a grand evil plan up his sleeve, and we still have NUNS bigwigs sitting in the corner twiddling their mustaches. Why the hell has none of this been solved yet? We're two episodes from the end, for god's sake!

[Jimmy C]

Originally Posted by Stark700

I wonder how Roid learned the weird phrase that triggers Mikumo to sing this episode.

That phrase was used during Heinz coronation. It appears to be used as some kind of "hail the king" salutation currently. It originally might have been used to control the Star Singer.

[Triple_R]

One thing I think most of us can agree on is that the 2nd cour's pacing is too slow, and it's seriously hurt some of the characters.

It's abundantly clear that yes, the original plan was 13 episodes and a movie, not 26 episodes. It's pretty clear they had to think of all sorts of little diversions and scenarios to fill up the added run-time caused by shifting from a movie to 13 anime episodes. Berger's exposition episode, the whole Mikumo rescue operation drama (and Walkure being imprisoned because of it), the "fix the ship" episode that started cour 2, and maybe even the trial in this episode, were probably all hastily created just to fill-up all the added run-time. The original 13 episodes + movie idea probably had much cleaner and smoother plotting/characterization.

The good news is that the padding probably ends next episode. The bad news is some characterization damage has already been done, and the first cour's excellent sense of forward momentum has been destroyed here in the 2nd cour.