[Game] Umineko - Spoilers, Theories, Interpretations

[ALPHA-Beatrice]

Originally Posted by GreyZone

That is exactly what I was saying... it is similar to the solution of EP2TL1. Basically: The scene where people were claiming to hear a knocking sound was a lie, just like the magic battle in EP3 between Beato and Virgillia was a lie and just like the door in EP2TL1 was never locked.

Opps, my blue truth ended up strengthening your argument. Mostly because I meant No one would mishear a knock that didn't exist.

(But my other blue is still effective. That's a valid interpretation)

I think both the knock and the letter are real, the only reason it's a riddle is that Erika/Bernkastel focused far too much on the people "inside the mansion", when in truth it could've easily been done by anyone outside of the mansion.

[GoldenLand]

Originally Posted by ALPHA-Beatrice

I think both the knock and the letter are real, the only reason it's a riddle is that Erika/Bernkastel focused far too much on the people "inside the mansion", when in truth it could've easily been done by anyone outside of the mansion.

How could anyone outside the mansion have easily made the knock and left the letter?

[ALPHA-Beatrice]

Originally Posted by GoldenLand

How could anyone outside the mansion have easily made the knock and left the letter?

Person "X", let's say Kuwasawa tells the group she left something at the mansion and goes to get it back. With a valid reasoning, not even Lady Erika suspects her. Kuwasawa slides the letter through a shaft in the door and knocks on the door before leaving.

The only red truths surrounding those who weren't at the mansion are:

Before the family conference, Erika, George, Jessica, Maria, Nanjo, Gohda, and Kumasawa left the mansion and moved to the guesthouse.

At 24:00, only Erika, George, Jessica, Maria, Nanjo, Gohda, and Kumasawa existed outside the mansion

It was impossible for anyone outside the mansion to influence anything inside the mansion around the time of the family conference.

What's important about the first Red Truth is that they 'moved to the guest house' but they weren't Placed inside the guest house

In other words, no one was able to objectively confirm their location. It's not even given the power of the Red Truth. It's just assumed they moved to the guest house, eventually.

Lambda-sama confirms the meaning of the first red with the second red.

You might think the third red negates my theory, but it doesn't negate my theory As long as the person could have placed the letter and knocked from outside of the mansion

And I showed an example of just such a theory.

[GreyZone]

[...]This means it was impossible for any character within the mansion to be the source of a knocking SOUND. ......And 'any character' refers even to unobserved people that no one has noticed.
It was impossible for anyone outside the mansion to influence anything inside the mansion around the time of the family conference.
Basically you can translate that to: No one inside the mansion caused a knocking sound and no one outside the mansion is able to create a knocking sound that can be heard inside the mension
Result: No human on the island could have created a knocking sound at that time, that could be heard by those in the dining hall.
And the conclusion in simple terms: There was no knocking sound at that time!

Unless you can find a flaw here, this is checkmate.

[ALPHA-Beatrice]

Originally Posted by GreyZone

[...]This means it was impossible for any character within the mansion to be the source of a knocking SOUND. ......And 'any character' refers even to unobserved people that no one has noticed.
It was impossible for anyone outside the mansion to influence anything inside the mansion around the time of the family conference.
Basically you can translate that to: No one inside the mansion caused a knocking sound and no one outside the mansion is able to create a knocking sound that can be heard inside the mension
Result: No human on the island could have created a knocking sound at that time, that could be heard by those in the dining hall.
And the conclusion in simple terms: There was no knocking sound at that time!

Unless you can find a flaw here, this is checkmate.

My Blue Truth: Even though the 'sound' was heard inside the mansion, the 'knock' is caused by an outside action. In other words, a knock doesn't invalidate the ruling that no one inside the mansion could have caused it.

Blue Truth #2: That statement of Lambda-Sama's refers to the possibility that 'Person X' hid inside the mansion. It doesn't invalidate any outside influence.

[GreyZone]

Originally Posted by ALPHA-Beatrice

My Blue Truth: Even though the 'sound' was heard inside the mansion, the 'knock' is caused by an outside action. In other words, a knock doesn't invalidate the ruling that no one inside the mansion could have caused it.

[...]In other words, all of them would correctly distinguish a knocking sound of something truly hitting the door, and they definitely wouldn't mishear it. It's totally impossible that any sounds except hitting that door directly would be misinterpreted as a knock!!
'To knock' means someone hitting a door with their hand.

Originally Posted by ALPHA-Beatrice

Blue Truth #2: That statement of Lambda-Sama's refers to the possibility that 'Person X' hid inside the mansion. It doesn't invalidate any outside influence.

Let it be known that at 24:00, except for Krauss, Natsuhi, and Genji in the second floor corridor and all of the people in the dining hall, no humans existed inside the mansion.

And this should deny it completely:
At 24:00 in the guesthouse, George, Jessica, and Maria were alive and in the second floor cousins' room. Nanjo, Gohda, and Kumasawa were on the first floor.

Again, unless you find a flaw, this is check mate.



EDIT:
I just realized a small mistake by Erika and Bern: Bern said "From 24:00 until morning, a living Kinzo could only have existed inside Natsuhi's bed. And last night, Natsuhi also slept in that same bed." But the red truth above contradicts that. She made a FALSE RED TRUTH. Plot hole detected!

[Kealym]

Spoiler for Regarding Knocks and Letters:

Let me try and sum it up, quickly, by looking at the most important reds, right from the scene itself.

• Let it be known that at 24:00, except for Krauss, Natsuhi, and Genji in the second floor corridor and all of the people in the dining hall, no humans existed inside the mansion.
• In short, this means it was impossible for any character within the mansion to be the source of a knocking SOUND. ......And 'any character' refers even to unobserved people that no one has noticed.
• It was announced in red that no one in the mansion placed the letter in the hallway.
• At 24:00, only Erika, George, Jessica, Maria, Nanjo, Gohda, and Kumasawa existed outside the mansion
• It was impossible for anyone outside the mansion to influence anything inside the mansion around the time of the family conference.
• None of the characters misidentified a knocking sound.

Based on these things, we're only really left with two possible solutions. The extremely obvious (and I would say properly hinted) solution is simply There was no knock. If there was a letter at all, it was probably brought openly by Shannon and Kanon at that time.

The other, if I recall from prior discussion, involves someone from the Guesthouse group making the knock at a time prior to midnight, having altered the grandfather clock to create the wrong impression of the time, though this kind of theory has stumbling blocks all over the place.

So, There was no knock. It's so simple there's almost nothing to discuss, and it fits way way better with the themes of the EP than anything else, to boot.

Spoiler for Regarding Gaap:

I mean, just reread EP7, it literally shows us Yasu just making Gaap up out of nothing. At conception, Gaap was supposed to be Beatrice, and even when Yasu became Beatrice, Gaap was still a witch. That is to say, she was not based on something very explicit, just the idea that "sometimes my stuff goes missing." The specificity of the "demon Lord Gaap, with the power of instantaneous travel" was almost definitely something Maria suggested later when they were playing around.

Furthermore, we're explicitly told that Yasu's friendship with Jessica was not one of notable depth, so it would be odd to assume there was a Jessica=Gaap correlation, and inserting Jessica into this would mean that she had spent years pranking the servants and stuff, and that she was in any way trying or complicit with strengthening "Beatrice's" presence, which is at odds with most of Jessica's characterization.

Furthermore furthermore, in Our Confessions, Beatrice opens up a lot more regarding her role as a good storyteller, who likes to create interesting characters to keep things fresh - she literally makes up Flauros on the spot, decides she's going to be a cute cat-girl, and says "Flauros. It has been a while" as though we're supposed to know who this person is.

Sooooo a vessel is not strictly necessary. Or, id we really must assign one, it's probably just Yasu herself, since she's the one either A. losing track of her own belongings or B. pulling pranks on others. Frankly, "Yasu already HAS too many personalities!" is just a silly argument against it, since anything more than one is already stretching things. We're already talking about a story where, depending on how you slice it, there at least three, and possibly upwards of 17 otherwise distinct characters you could call "Beatrice" and still be "not wrong, exactly".

Spoiler for Responding to Renall:

Originally Posted by Renall

The text is vague, but conceded. Erika definitely sees everyone in the next room over. I suppose it doesn't actually specify she ever saw who was in the cousins' room, so that accounts for the possibility that lying about Kanon's very existence was part of the deception (but the adults, at least Krauss and Hideyoshi, have to be in on it).

Anyway, there's a bigger problem here that I just noticed: Erika is the one who suggests putting Kanon in the cousins' room. Specifically, she suggests putting Genji and Gohda in the cousins' room as they are biggest threat, and Kanon because he is also male. There doesn't appear to be any logic provided whatsoever for Shannon being separated from Kanon other than that.

So... was that just pure luck? Granted, there are potentially ways Battler could've gotten around it (George refuses to be separated from Shannon, forcing Erika to make him swap places with Kanon, etc.), but it doesn't appear that he had any specific hand in it. Unless he was just banking on Erika separating the men and women... and I'm not sure why. I'm not sure it's "Battler wrote Erika's piece to do this" as Meta-Erika seems to be implying it was her idea. It's not fatal to Genius Battler, but it means he'd have to have done something entirely different to set up the Logic Error solution because it wouldn't have worked without that particular separation.

Yeah, we need ... I dunno, you might actually need everybody except Erika to be in on it by the end of things. All the FT victims were faking, noone in Rudolf's room causes a ruckus over an entire person just not being there, and meanwhile in Hideyoshi's room (sorry, 'next room over' always throws me and I can't remember which was which) Shannon apparently just hops right out the damn window, what HAS to be less than a few minutes after Erika walked out of it, and they didn't even know she was headed to the mansion.

Actually, this related to your other point but, I can only assume Battler constructed a FULL LENGTH game for Dawn, with multiple places where a Logic Error could happen, because even with Genius Battler in effect, he would be in a really awkward narrative situation if the game's plot had to advance past the issue of the Guest Room, at all

[DokEnkephalin]

Episode 8 reveals Why Fandom Can't Have Nice Things: All the Goats!

Seriously, R07 casts the audience as literal consumers of media so much that it's starting to hurt my feelings.

Originally Posted by Kealym

Spoiler for Regarding Gaap:

I mean, just reread EP7, it literally shows us Yasu just making Gaap up out of nothing. At conception, Gaap was supposed to be Beatrice, and even when Yasu became Beatrice, Gaap was still a witch. That is to say, she was not based on something very explicit, just the idea that "sometimes my stuff goes missing." The specificity of the "demon Lord Gaap, with the power of instantaneous travel" was almost definitely something Maria suggested later when they were playing around.

Furthermore, we're explicitly told that Yasu's friendship with Jessica was not one of notable depth, so it would be odd to assume there was a Jessica=Gaap correlation, and inserting Jessica into this would mean that she had spent years pranking the servants and stuff, and that she was in any way trying or complicit with strengthening "Beatrice's" presence, which is at odds with most of Jessica's characterization.

Furthermore furthermore, in Our Confessions, Beatrice opens up a lot more regarding her role as a good storyteller, who likes to create interesting characters to keep things fresh - she literally makes up Flauros on the spot, decides she's going to be a cute cat-girl, and says "Flauros. It has been a while" as though we're supposed to know who this person is.

Sooooo a vessel is not strictly necessary. Or, id we really must assign one, it's probably just Yasu herself, since she's the one either A. losing track of her own belongings or B. pulling pranks on others. Frankly, "Yasu already HAS too many personalities!" is just a silly argument against it, since anything more than one is already stretching things. We're already talking about a story where, depending on how you slice it, there at least three, and possibly upwards of 17 otherwise distinct characters you could call "Beatrice" and still be "not wrong, exactly".

None of this eliminates the possibility of Jessica as vessel for Gaap, or any of the support for. It doesn't appear that Yasu made any of the characters out of nothing; there was always some interaction informing her model of her characters. That Jessica wasn't close with Yasu doesn't mean they didn't interact at all, and Yasu could've been left with just enough impression to imagine a headstrong, haughty prankster with mysterious powers. Someone who isn't under anyone's power but would be helpful to friends, someone independent and spirited -- someone who Jessica would be more comfortable being than the persona her mother and father obligate her to adopt. Yasu's impression could've perpetuated long after Jessica and Shannon did become close, and even become stronger the more Jessica showed that side of herself even more.

That a vessel is required doesn't further require that the vessel be present and performing the role at all times -- only that it had to have existed. Gaap's vessel certainly would need to be there along with Genji and Kumasawa and Sakuturo and the Stakes while roleplaying with Maria. While Maria may accept someone acting a character as being that character, swapping roles right in front of her would be too confusing for her to accept. That Yasu "has too many personalities" would be a silly argument, and you could have only read that by eliminating the rest of it: that another personality, especially in this situation, overstresses suspension of disbelief, for the readers and for Maria.

[Kealym]

/shrug

Never said it was literally impossible for Jessica to be a vessel for Gaap, I suppose Ryu could always do an interview after the fact and claim that was always his intent. Just that, for the story in front of us, it's a very weak argument and really messy with how both Jessica, and Yasu's friend-creation-factory are characterized. The support is very insubstantial ; I can just as easily claim Gaap's vessel was Natsuhi or Godha.

Also, of course Yasu interacted with Jessica, that should be obvious. Jessica is probably her best friend.
Also, of course the vessel doesn't have to be present and performing at all times, that should be obvious, too.

Also, I haven't neglected to read your other posts, but you bring up the topic by saying

Originally Posted by DokEnkephalin

Yeah, it's not strictly necessary, but having a physical analogue would fortify character integrity for Yasu, Beatrice and Maria. It could be Beatrice playing the role, since Gaap originally was Beatrice, but she's already multiple-personality overloaded, and that may be enough to shatter Maria's willing suspension of disbelief (not to mention mine.)

So, I assume you think Yasu's "multiple-personality overloaded" self would shatter Maria's willing suspension of disbelief (the same disbelief that apparently extends so far she gives Beatrice permission to possess her body so they can hang out. I'm not saying Maria is stupid (well, she kind of is, but I prefer to say 'pure-hearted' ), but she's already suspending her disbelief quite a bit. She's 9, and has quite the imagination, and it's not like she was ever sitting across from a busty blonde woman in a ball gown on any of those times they playes together.

And if Yasu also bearing the 'Gaap, my good friend' persona is the straw that broke the camels back on how many personalities became too many personalioties, than ... you are a stronger man than I, I'll put it that way.

Anyway, you do make a good point that a vessel would fortify integrity, but there isn't a clear analogue for Gaap like there is for the others, no person who fits the role with the overt tells that Kumasawa and Genji had, no specially mentioned objects (there IS the doll Jessica finds in the VIP room, but it doesn't fit much with Gaap's image at all). It really just seems Gaap exists mostly as a concept. Perhaps she and Maria just used a drawing when they were getting their witch on, or maybe some old dolls that Jessica used to have, and Yasu went out of her way to get a red dress for it, I'unno.

[GuestSpeaker]

Let's not forget that Virugilia was originally supposed to be a completely different character, and one who was unlikely to have any sort of vessel. I guess we could say that the vessel thing was something Ryu thought up after that change, but it certainly wasn't always his goal.

Regarding ep 5, what do you guys think Ronove meant by "it lacks love"? I have begun to think it was because Lambda changed Yasu's primary motivation from Battler's love to basically torturing Natsuhi (usually just a secondary goal)


Also I was thinking about the reset Ange goes through in ep 8, and the manga does somewhat justify it by saying that after Bern's red in the ep 7 teaparty that Ange basically rejects the idea that her parents are to blame and once again desperately swings back to Eva. Maybe epiphanies on forgiveness are easier to hold when someone is holding a gun to your head (plus technically if her school-mates said it, it was before her journey anyway)

[GuestSpeaker]

Also going back to that older discussion over stealing the gold, I wouldn't say there is NO evidence that Bice and Kinzo conspired together. It is often talked about how Kinzo and Beatrice had a "contract" together for the gold, and we know from ep 4 that kinzo once chose to kill everyone else to save himself and his beloved. Knowing Bice's characterisation, I feel she wouldn't just be a passive flower awaiting rescue by Kinzo and believing whatever lie he told her about why all her escorts were dead. In fact, we are constantly told that Beatrice offered Kinzo all the gold in exchange for his soul...

[ALPHA-Beatrice]

Originally Posted by GreyZone

[...]In other words, all of them would correctly distinguish a knocking sound of something truly hitting the door, and they definitely wouldn't mishear it. It's totally impossible that any sounds except hitting that door directly would be misinterpreted as a knock!!
'To knock' means someone hitting a door with their hand

Of course, my theory doesn't violate that red. I'm saying that the knocking noise was Obviously caused by someone outside of the mansion knocking on the door.

Because of that red truth about no one inside the mansion being able to make the knock, and because of the red truth saying no one would 'mishear' a knock.

We can damn well confirm the possibility that a knock did in fact occur.

Originally Posted by Greyzone

Let it be known that at 24:00, except for Krauss, Natsuhi, and Genji in the second floor corridor and all of the people in the dining hall, no humans existed inside the mansion.

And this should deny it completely:
At 24:00 in the guesthouse, George, Jessica, and Maria were alive and in the second floor cousins' room. Nanjo, Gohda, and Kumasawa were on the first floor.

Again, unless you find a flaw, this is check mate.

**sips tea and pours you a cup** As always, Chaos Sorcerer this is truly fun.

Was the 'knock' specified to 24:00 on the game board? If it wasn't....

Then one of the people outside of the mansion during the Family Conference placed the letter through the shaft and knocked on the door before 24:00

I mean, it can't be more than a couple of minutes from the Mansion to the Guesthouse, and typically speaking it might take just that amount of time for the startled Ushiromiya family members to answer the door.

It's as Battler said, in this world there are multiple interpretations as long as they don't contradict the known facts. My theory isn't trying to deny your theory, in fact it can't. Because both of our theories need a certain red truth from Lambda to confirm or deny them.

"Absolutely no living person touched the letter."

If a red statement similar to that were made, then that would destroy my theory(and confirm yours). But Lambda did the opposite, she stated that there was a knock and that no one would "mishear" that knock.

Due to Knox's 9th, we can presume the possibility that those in the mansion did indeed fabricate this story. But if we did, we'd fall to the fallacy of another of Knox's rules

Knox's 6th: It's forbidden for accident or intuition to be used as a detective technique

And claiming that they'd all lie is the same to me as a crutch for solving this particular riddle, especially if no red truth pertaining to this specific riddle didn't point to this possibility.

[GoldenLand]

Originally Posted by ALPHA-Beatrice

Was the 'knock' specified to 24:00 on the game board? If it wasn't....

Then one of the people outside of the mansion during the Family Conference placed the letter through the shaft and knocked on the door before 24:00

The knock was specified to 24:00 multiple times on the game board, yes. More specifically, it was specified to 24:00 according to the large clock in the hallway. Also, about an hour beforehand, Shannon and Kanon arrived to serve tea, and multiple characters confirmed that there was no letter in the hallway at that time. Of course, those statements are not in red.

What we do have in red is that It was impossible for anyone outside the mansion to influence anything inside the mansion around the time of the family conference.

[DokEnkephalin]

Originally Posted by Kealym

The support is very insubstantial ; I can just as easily claim Gaap's vessel was Natsuhi or Godha.

That claim would not be made as easily; its not in either of their character to roleplay with Beatrice at all, much less play a role like Gaap.

Also, of course Yasu interacted with Jessica, that should be obvious. Jessica is probably her best friend.

But notice that Gaap appeared before Yasu became familiar with Jessica, when Jessica was still an enigmatic and vibrant figure, easily interpreted as larger-than-life when Yasu was still a child. Jessica was 'Milady', but not someone who regulated her life as Natsuhi did, someone who appeared at her own whim and could entertain herself at the servant's expense. Jessica could be playing the role for Yasu even before she knew this is how Yasu viewed her. Later she could also play it knowingly to entertain Maria -- whether or not she was in the know about Beatrice's role as successor, whether or not she was love with Shannon at this time, she would still be having fun with her friend and cousin.

Anyway, you do make a good point that a vessel would fortify integrity, but there isn't a clear analogue for Gaap like there is for the others, no person who fits the role with the overt tells that Kumasawa and Genji had, no specially mentioned objects (there IS the doll Jessica finds in the VIP room, but it doesn't fit much with Gaap's image at all). It really just seems Gaap exists mostly as a concept.

The purely conceptual personification makes sense with Knox and Willard, as they're both representatives for the human, mystery side and they were both introduced as pieces from outside the board. Gaap was a personality cultivated from within the setting.

Alright, let's look at why Gaap without a vessel would be an inconsistency in the setting. First, every other character has a vessel except those possessed by Yasu herself. Out of those, Beatrice and Kanon were formulated in Yasu's imagination before making their appearance, Kanon in greater detail while Beatrice was still gaining in complexity.

Shannon seems like the outlier, but I propose there was a Shannon, a supportive mentor who roomed with Yasu in the beginning, someone Yasu idolized and idealized beyond her actual character. This person left at the same time the entire servant staff turned over and Yasu, now believing herself Shannon, remained in a single room. Turning out the entire staff at once seems unlikely as a coincidence, since the household had a system of non-uniform, rotating terms that, like most Japanese institutions, relied on seniority to smooth the transition between veteran and neophyte members. I would say Genji 'graduated' the old familiar faces before they became aware enough to question an uncomfortable truth, and replaced them with servants unfamiliar enough to never notice. I couldn't conclude that Yasu killed the real Shannon; it would be such a distortion of the 'love as motive' theme of the episode as to invalidate it.

Unlike Shannon, Kanon and Beatrice, Gaap arrived without Yasu's prejudice of what she should be like, a fully formed personality. Just like Ronove revealed aspects of Genji's true personality, and Virgilia revealed aspects of Kumasawa's, Gaap showed the flamboyant energy Jessica only gets to express on stage.

[ALPHA-Beatrice]

Originally Posted by GoldenLand

The knock was specified to 24:00 multiple times on the game board, yes. More specifically, it was specified to 24:00 according to the large clock in the hallway. Also, about an hour beforehand, Shannon and Kanon arrived to serve tea, and multiple characters confirmed that there was no letter in the hallway at that time. Of course, those statements are not in red.

What we do have in red is that It was impossible for anyone outside the mansion to influence anything inside the mansion around the time of the family conference.

See, I guess here I'm wondering what the word "influence" means. If someone slips a letter through a door shaft, and knocks on the door, both of these things are occurring from the outside.

In other words The letter is a foreign object. It can only come from the outside, if it exists at all. Because it's a foreign object, it doesn't necessarily "influence" anything inside, until it reaches inside the mansion.

In this riddle, the mansion is basically acting like Rokkenjima itself during the 2-days. The mansion is a barrier between the people on the inside and those on the outside. Or, it can be called a closed room.


The barrier only exists to prevent any influence on the inside, it cannot prevent outside influence.

I mean The knock itself confirms my thesis. As well as Lady Lambda's statements denying that anyone on the inside could have made it.

When a person's standing outside of the door, is person "X" not an outside influence? And the only way person "X" can influence the inside, is if he/she is allowed in.

Until then, person "X" is a disturbance, not an influence so it's effective.

[GreyZone]

Read the red again. It clearly says outside the mansion. There is nothing that says "outside the room" or something.

Also, if I remember correctly, in the scene it was shown that they heard the knock a moment before the 24:00 clock signal. The time delay between the knock and the moment the clock hit 24:00 were a very few seconds of time. It stands to argue if a person would have enough time to knock the door and sprint out of the mansion, but WHO exactly could it be? Don't forget the following red truths:

Ushiromiya Kinzo is dead at the starting time of all games

at 24:00, except for Krauss, Natsuhi, and Genji in the second floor corridor and all of the people in the dining hall, no humans existed inside the mansion.

At 24:00, only Erika, George, Jessica, Maria, Nanjo, Gohda, and Kumasawa existed outside the mansion

At 24:00 in the guesthouse, George, Jessica, and Maria were alive and in the second floor cousins' room. Nanjo, Gohda, and Kumasawa were on the first floor.

at 24:00, Natsuhi, Krauss, and Genji were in a corridor on the second floor of the mansion. All the remaining people were at the family conference in the dining hall. Of course, at that point in time, no murder had occurred. Genji was also alive.

It is physically impossible to reach the guesthouse from the door of the dining hall in a few seconds.


So unless you argue that it was actually Erika who did the knock or some absurd theory like that, this is check mate.

[Kealym]

Originally Posted by DokEnkephalin

That claim would not be made as easily; its not in either of their character to roleplay with Beatrice at all, much less play a role like Gaap.

It's not in Jessica's character to do that, either, though. It's very contrary to what we're told about her many times in the text, and the implications become very strange. For example, you'd be suggesting that Jessica had a long-standing habit of pranking the servants by stealing their stuff.

Originally Posted by DokEnkephalin

The purely conceptual personification makes sense with Knox and Willard, as they're both representatives for the human, mystery side and they were both introduced as pieces from outside the board.

I agree with this.

Spoiler for more Gaap stuff:

Originally Posted by DokEnkephalin

Alright, let's look at why Gaap without a vessel would be an inconsistency in the setting. First, every other character has a vessel except those possessed by Yasu herself. Out of those, Beatrice and Kanon were formulated in Yasu's imagination before making their appearance, Kanon in greater detail while Beatrice was still gaining in complexity.

Putting aside the "was there a second Shannon" matter, your argument here is : "every character has a vessel except those possessed by Yasu". But, you seem to be ignoring that

• None of this is a problem if Yasu is Gaap's vessel, which she might be
• Gaap was a stepping stone of Beatrice's maturation
• Gaap was already characterized in Yasu's imagination by the time we first see her in EP7
• Gaap possesses Yasu's body at one point, and it's a big deal apparently, as opposed to literally all the other times when Gaap apparently doesn't need to possess anybody to snatch away objects
• Gaap is presented as "the first friend", at least of a purely magical nature. It wouldn't be strange to have an inconsistency from essentially a prototype model, if an inconsistency exists
• Like I said also, Beatrice creates Flauros in Our Confessions literally out of a name, brief description, and hot air, even though all of Flauros' actions would have just been Yasu's actions, or narrative shiggles.

Originally Posted by DokEnkephalin

Unlike Shannon, Kanon and Beatrice, Gaap arrived without Yasu's prejudice of what she should be like, a fully formed personality. Just like Ronove revealed aspects of Genji's true personality, and Virgilia revealed aspects of Kumasawa's, Gaap showed the flamboyant energy Jessica only gets to express on stage.

Except she's entirely based on Yasu's prejudices! Yasu claims to know about beings like Gaap from the Fukuin School (which has some vague Christian thing going on, it seems), and the idea of Gaap (at that time Beatrice), was already based on Kinzo's rants, Kumasawa's stories, a non-human nature, and a child attributing spite to coincidence.

It's not that strange, is it? You've never left the house, or school, just as it started to rain and thought "Of course it would do that, couldn't it have just waited 5 more minutes?" What Yasu finally meets in the chapel is just a mishmash of Gestalt psychology, confirmation bias, and superstition to comfort herself over her own repeated clumsiness. The whole idea mutated over time into something she felt was a friend who helped her overcome that clumsiness.

... ... why yes, my goat mask is probably in the mail as we speak. XD

[GreyZone]

Yasu considered Gaap to be "Beatrice" at that time. She did NOT see any picture of Castelgoni or "KuwadorianTrice" at that time yet so she gave her some fantasy appearance and outfit. But the legend of "Beatrice" already existed at that time. Later on, of course, she didn't want to give up her second imaginary friend (the first one was Shannon).

[ALPHA-Beatrice]

Originally Posted by GreyZone

Read the red again. It clearly says outside the mansion. There is nothing that says "outside the room" or something.

Also, if I remember correctly, in the scene it was shown that they heard the knock a moment before the 24:00 clock signal. The time delay between the knock and the moment the clock hit 24:00 were a very few seconds of time. It stands to argue if a person would have enough time to knock the door and sprint out of the mansion, but WHO exactly could it be? Don't forget the following red truths:

Ushiromiya Kinzo is dead at the starting time of all games

at 24:00, except for Krauss, Natsuhi, and Genji in the second floor corridor and all of the people in the dining hall, no humans existed inside the mansion.

At 24:00, only Erika, George, Jessica, Maria, Nanjo, Gohda, and Kumasawa existed outside the mansion

At 24:00 in the guesthouse, George, Jessica, and Maria were alive and in the second floor cousins' room. Nanjo, Gohda, and Kumasawa were on the first floor.

at 24:00, Natsuhi, Krauss, and Genji were in a corridor on the second floor of the mansion. All the remaining people were at the family conference in the dining hall. Of course, at that point in time, no murder had occurred. Genji was also alive.

It is physically impossible to reach the guesthouse from the door of the dining hall in a few seconds.


So unless you argue that it was actually Erika who did the knock or some absurd theory like that, this is check mate.

Here I thought I presented a strong theory, but yours is clearly more plausible within the realm of the red truth.

I Resign.

[DokEnkephalin]

Originally Posted by Kealym

It's not in Jessica's character to do that, either, though. It's very contrary to what we're told about her many times in the text, and the implications become very strange. For example, you'd be suggesting that Jessica had a long-standing habit of pranking the servants by stealing their stuff.

It's not necessary that she pull the prank, Yasu is shown to be absent-minded enough to lose her own stuff, only that Jessica left the impression by continuing to tease her without denying it, or even knowing Yasu was blaming her. Whether Jessica would later prank someone who's disrespecting this girl she's starting to like isn't as likely as her encouraging Yasu to prank her.

Doing the prank herself would give Yasu her first taste of making someone believe in magic through misdirection and how, with sleight-of-hand and her repertoire of closed-room tricks, it would be possible for her to become a witch herself. And when she told her friend Gaap that she couldn't be Beatrice anymore, Jessica could cheerily reply, "Alright, if you say so!"

Originally Posted by Kealym

[*]None of this is a problem if Yasu is Gaap's vessel, which she might be

Except for the inevitable speed-bump of comprehension in any interaction with Maria. Swapping characters mid-conversation would be more confusing for anyone, and less likely than for there to be consistent figures to concentrate on. Consider especially when Maria is naming people, identifying them as fantasy counterparts -- would she be able to accept Yasu as Beatrice and name her as Gaap at the same time?

Originally Posted by Kealym

[*]Gaap was already characterized in Yasu's imagination by the time we first see her in EP7

Her abilities, but not as a personality or presence; those developed through interaction.

Originally Posted by Kealym

[*]Gaap possesses Yasu's body at one point, and it's a big deal apparently, as opposed to literally all the other times when Gaap apparently doesn't need to possess anybody to snatch away objects

Addressed above. It wouldn't be necessary for Jessica to be present, but also wouldn't be impossible/implausible.

Originally Posted by Kealym

[*]Like I said also, Beatrice creates Flauros in Our Confessions literally out of a name, brief description, and hot air, even though all of Flauros' actions would have just been Yasu's actions, or narrative shiggles.

I've never read this. It sounds like omake materials; are you sure it's canon?