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Stealther · 2012-01-19, 04:02

I still disagree that it is as little of a romance as you think, but let's leave that.

What matters is that a huge amount of the people voted for S;G in romance. Basically you're saying all these people voted wrong. Is it really so? Is it that hard to vote for "Best Romance?" that the majority would fail? Couldn't it be so that this is a deserved winner in romance, and that the majority thinks this approach is fine too when its executed unusually well, in combination with an overall poor year for romance? (and as we already concluded, there's nothing you can do about people not having watched everything. popularity is a part of all open awards)

I'm generally against restrictions, especially when restrictions aren't even needed. If you absolutely need a restriction, and it comes true, you need to make absolutely sure it doesn't backfire in any case, and only serves its intended use. Saying that a series can only have 2 main genres or only excel in a maximum of two is not true. Three might cover most, but it's still an arbitrary number by gut feeling. Not a well-defined rule.

EDIT: Rather than hiding behind your -rep you're allowed to discuss with me here or via PM . Why is this so hard to understand?

Yes, I get that you don't see S;G as a romance anime. But you're neglecting everyone who thinks that despite this, it's good enough to be voted in romance. Can you see it from this point?

hyl · 2012-01-19, 08:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stealther

I still disagree that it is as little of a romance as you think, but let's leave that.

Well care to point out, if there was actually more than that amount of romance in my estimation?
Even if you squished out a little more (which i can't even find a few episodes full of examples besides episode 22 and little bits in some other episodes), it's still pale in comparison to it's other 3 genres that i used in my example. As those 3 genres show their elements in atleast half of the serie.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stealther

What matters is that a huge amount of the people voted for S;G in romance. Basically you're saying all these people voted wrong. Is it really so? Is it that hard to vote for "Best Romance?" that the majority would fail? Couldn't it be so that this is a deserved winner in romance, and that the majority thinks this approach is fine too when its executed unusually well, in combination with an overall poor year for romance? (and as we already concluded, there's nothing you can do about people not having watched everything. popularity is a part of all open awards)

It's a matter of genres. I have mentioned this before that i wouldn't even care if even Sekaiichi Hatsukoi would have won the best romance of this year. Because it's genre is atleast primarily romance.

I think that an actual romance anime still deserves the title is of the best romance of 2011 more than anime in which romance was it's quaternary or even quinary genre(because i am not sure yet if there was more comedy in it than romance.)
If people ask me for recommendations on romance animes, Steins;Gate does not pop up into mind as an immediate choice. Because it's other 3 (or 4 if i check out to the comedy later this week by rewatching) genres still overdominate the romance.

As i have used as my own example with the movie Source Code a few pages ago, i am not narrow minded to put a movie that i liked in a category that it does not fit into just because i have not watched or enjoyed any actual romance movies myself at the cinema last year. If i would choose my best romance movie of 2011, i would have left my best romance movie spot blank.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stealther

I'm generally against restrictions, especially when restrictions aren't even needed. If you absolutely need a restriction, and it comes true, you need to make absolutely sure it doesn't backfire in any case, and only serves its intended use. Saying that a series can only have 2 main genres or only excel in a maximum of two is not true. Three might cover most, but it's still an arbitrary number by gut feeling. Not a well-defined rule.

I think that rarely any kind of medium truly excells at more than 3 genres, because if something has too many genres it has greater chance to disrupt the other genres or even it's own plot.
You could prove me wrong by providing some examples.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stealther

EDIT: Rather than hiding behind your -rep you're allowed to discuss with me here or via PM . Why is this so hard to understand?

Yes, I get that you don't see S;G as a romance anime. But you're neglecting everyone who thinks that despite this, it's good enough to be voted in romance. Can you see it from this point?

I didn't neg rep anyone in this topic, just ask any mod to check that out. 0_0
While i can see and don't deny that Steins;Gate has romance, i don't think that it can be categorized as one regardless how many people in this forum think it is. Because it doesn't meet the criteria of a romance anime itself.

Also when not looking for at the anime but at the original VN itself (which is still overall better than the anime)
I don't think many VN readers agree that Steins;Gate is a romantic VN. Simply due to it's sheer lack of romance in majority of the story.

Kameruka · 2012-01-19, 08:28

Most people confused between "best" and "popular". I liked Mashiro-iro Symphony more than Kimi ni Todoke but KnT is better romance show than MiS.

hyl · 2012-01-19, 08:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kameruka

Most people confused between "best" and "popular". I liked Mashiro-iro Symphony more than Kimi ni Todoke but KnT is better romance show than MiS.

Well i don't care what romance wins, as long as it's a romance anime.
Oddly enough i think Kimi ni Todoke was overall more popular than Mashiro iro Symphony though. Because it has an overall bigger fanbase and it had high dvd sales.

totoum · 2012-01-19, 09:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kameruka

Most people confused between "best" and "popular". I liked Mashiro-iro Symphony more than Kimi ni Todoke but KnT is better romance show than MiS.

Kimi ni Todoke is the most popular romance manga out there

Sackett · 2012-01-19, 21:58

Well, I'd like to say that I just finished watching the four contenders for best OP/ED and I'm wondering how I'm going to make my decision of which to vote for. They are all pretty darn good.

Archon_Wing · 2012-01-19, 23:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kameruka

Most people confused between "best" and "popular". I liked Mashiro-iro Symphony more than Kimi ni Todoke but KnT is better romance show than MiS.

Because one is more objective than the other. And it's not the one what everyone thinks it is.

Stealther · 2012-01-20, 04:38

Both Kanon (2006) and Clannad S1 won best romance previous years. Do they really contain much more romance than S;G? From first episodes it's obvious who the fated ones are, but you still have to go through all kinds of daily activities, and help all sidecharacters with their problems (so you can get into their pants), until last arc when it's more fullblown drama/romance. As a matter of fact most harem romances follow this build-up. Just because you throw some sci-fi and mystery instead of daily life into it doesn't means it becomes less, or the romance is worse.

Cross Game won romance last year. It isn't primarily romance either.

Still, what you want to do is to decide everyone's opinion of what is worthy of calling a romance. Not just yourself. Let's just everyone decide their own interpretation. The fact that S;G still got so many votes is telling a lot.

It might be rare to excel at more than 3 genres, but in the end that's just an arbitrary number, not a well-defined rule. What happens when it comes an anime that is truly good in 4 genres, and the competition is not that stiff. Then it hurts the anime which only crime was to be exceptionally good and diverse. I can't say I can think of many, but one that instantly pops into mind is Kaiba. Love-story in a fantasy setting (some think sci-fi), while being a mystery cause the protagonist lost his memories, and it's very dramatic/tragedic as well.

Triple_R · 2012-01-20, 05:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stealther

Both Kanon (2006) and Clannad S1 won best romance previous years. Do they really contain much more romance than S;G?

Yes, in actual quantity of screen-time, they do. It's not even close.

The fact is that Steins;Gate spends very little time on romance. What it does do with that time is largely excellent, but it means that Steins;Gate is not a romance anime, imo.

To use an analogy: Suppose you have a show with 2 episodes worth of fighting action scenes out of 12 episodes in total, and those episodes are episodes 10 and 11. The other 10 episodes are almost entirely dialogue-driven. The action scenes in episodes 10 and 11 are very well-done. But would you call this anime an action/adventure show (to make it more clear, there's not much 'adventuring' in it either)?

I can pretty much guarantee you that most viewers looking for just fast-paced action would not have the patience to sit through 9 episodes of dialogue-driven content in order to get to it.

I view Steins;Gate much the same way. If all a viewer wants is romance then that is a lot of serious sci-fi and more general drama/suspense to go through in order to get there.

Quote:

The fact that S;G still got so many votes is telling a lot.

I'm strongly inclined to think that Steins;Gate is getting a lot of nominations because it has this year's most popular romantic pairing in it.

9 times out of 10, "best romantic pairing"="best romance", but this is one of those quirky times when that isn't really the case, imo. What makes Steins;Gate's main romantic pairing so great is the strength of each character in it, individually. So when you put two of the year's very best anime characters together, and they're nicely compatible, of course it's going to make for a great pairing. But that's not really the same as a great romance, imo, since great romance requires a certain degree of time, development, and focus.

For genre categories to have any value whatsoever there have to be some set limits to what can be classified under them. Your approach strikes me as failing to put any such set limits whatsoever into place, which renders genre distinctions meaningless. And if they're meaningless, why even have awards for them?

Skyfall estimated that Steins;Gate devotes about 15% of its time to romance. As another person that's watched all of it, that sounds about right to me.

If all you need to win an award in a genre is devoting 15% of your time to it, and doing that well, then we're setting very loose limits, imo, arguably to the point where genre categorization might as well not be there at all.

The fact is once you're getting into an anime show's 3rd, 4th, 5th possible genre label, you're usually looking at figures like 15%. If a show is just 15% Mystery/Horror, and the other 85% are other things entirely, should it really win an award for that 15% alone?

I find that idea pretty questionable myself.

Darkbeat · 2012-01-20, 05:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stealther

Cross Game won romance last year. It isn't primarily romance either.

It's all about genres. Steins;Gate is not listed anywhere as a romance anime because that is misleading. The romance, while there, is an after thought which is not large enough to consider recommending to someone who is a fan of romance. The largest genres are sci-fi, thriller and mystery.

In Cross Game, the romance was the driving force for the entire series. 50 episodes to bring one couple together, including entire supporting characters who existed for no other reason. Even the baseball served only to highlight the romance. It was there from the beginning (though I admit, I personally only woke up to the reality somewhere around episode 14/15)

This is the difference between a romance anime and an anime with romance. In the former, it's all about the romance, whether it's overt or it's subverted till the end. In an anime with romance, it's just a bonus.

Stealther · 2012-01-20, 05:42

We won't ever agree, so I'll just rest my case here. In the meanwhile you can think of a system that doesn't hurt unintended animes, and I might even be fine with it.
Kaiba is definitely in a supernatural setting, and love driving from first episode, together with mystery because of amnesia, and there's tons of drama and tragedy as well. Any set limit is just not a well-thought rule imo.

Conclusion:
1. Only genre animes should win in genre because otherwise you can't recommend it.
or
2. Both genre animes and non-genre animes should be able to win, because non-genre animes can be more fulfilling in that aspect. Which makes it recommendable.

hyl · 2012-01-20, 06:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stealther

We won't ever agree, so I'll just rest my case here. In the meanwhile you can think of a system that doesn't hurt unintended animes, and I might even be fine with it.
Kaiba is definitely in a supernatural setting, and love driving from first episode, together with mystery because of amnesia, and there's tons of drama and tragedy as well. Any set limit is just not a well-thought rule imo.

Conclusion:
1. Only genre animes should win in genre because otherwise you can't recommend it.
or
2. Both genre animes and non-genre animes should be able to win, because non-genre animes can be more fulfilling in that aspect. Which makes it recommendable.

Eventhough we don't agree with eachother, your examples of clannad, kanon and cross game were weak as others have made counter arguments.
Because i haven't seen Kaiba yet, i can't say if that serie has 3 or 4 equally strong genre elements in it.

On a statistic level, I think that some people are mixing up accuracy and representativity when it comes to sampling.
Steins;Gate was so far nominated as the best romance by many people and that sample is somewhat representative for this forum (due to fact that there weren't that many voters, but let's not get too statistical and ignore the fact of a sufficient sampling size). But it's representativity is inaccurate, due to a systemical error which is in this case a too broad view of what a romance anime is.

I would rather rephrase your conclusion into this though

1. Animes with the correct main genre(s) should be able to win in their respective genres, because otherwise there is no actual distinction between genres.
Those people who share this view prefer accuracy over representativity.
2.All animes with a high numbers of voters (or nominators in this case) should be able to win in a category if that anime atleast has some elements of that genre in it. Those people who share this view prefer representativity over accuracy.

SeijiSensei · 2012-01-20, 08:09

Perhaps we should just eliminate the genre categories altogether. Letting any show be nominated in any category suggests to me that genre isn't really a very meaningful way to categorize anime. This extended argument over whether Steins;Gate is, or is not, a romance just makes the point.

I've argued repeatedly on the forums that genre is an over-emphasized and often uninformative characteristic of anime. Excellence is excellence regardless. I'd rather we focus more on scripts, performances, music, artwork, etc., and spend less time worrying about how to draw little boxes around groups of shows.

hyl · 2012-01-20, 08:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by SeijiSensei

Perhaps we should just eliminate the genre categories altogether. Letting any show be nominated in any category suggests to me that genre isn't really a very meaningful way to categorize anime. This extended argument over whether Steins;Gate is, or is not, a romance just makes the point.

I've argued repeatedly on the forums that genre is an over-emphasized and often uninformative characteristic of anime. Excellence is excellence regardless. I'd rather we focus more on scripts, performances, music, artwork, etc., and spend less time worrying about how to draw little boxes around groups of shows.

The problem is that the genre usually determines the script, writing, music, type of art etc. Romance and Slice of life series tend to use more soothing BGM's and usually have slower pacing than for example an action serie.
Also with your your reasoning some types of anime won't make it in the list at all, like for example comedy animes.
Some examples of why comedy won't make it in the list without using genres.
-The story is most of the time nonexistant in a comedy
-The music scores are usually not that great because overall comedy series don't have a high enough budget for it.
- A comedy won't be able to outperform a decent drama, no matter how good the performance is in a comedy
-The characters are most of the time just caricatures in a comedy, so you won't find deep or big developments most of the time.
-While there are some comedy anime with nice art, the art in a comedy is usually not good enough to win in the best visuals department.

SeijiSensei · 2012-01-20, 08:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by hyl

the performance is in a comedy it usually won't beat the performance of a decent drama anime and the characters are most of the time just caricatures in a comedy.

I think School Rumble has some of the best seiyuu performances I've heard in any show. If we had had the Awards when SR was released, I would have had no problems voting for Takahashi Hiroki (Harima), and maybe even Koshimizu Ami (Tenma), for best lead voice acting. Noto Mamiko (Yakumo) and Horie Yui (Eri) could both easily have contended for best supporting actresses.

Moreover comedies get much more viewing than serious dramas. To my mind the best drama of 2010 was House of Five Leaves. Its thread here contains a grand total of 270 postings. Even mediocre comedy series get much more traffic than that. Since popularity plays an enormous role in the nomination and voting process, I'd argue that dramas are more likely to be under-represented, not the reverse.

I could see having comedy and drama as categories, but slicing-and-dicing within those categories to categorize a show as, say, "horror" versus "fantasy" doesn't seem worth the effort to me. Just call Madoka a drama and be done with it.

hyl · 2012-01-20, 08:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by SeijiSensei

I think School Rumble has some of the best seiyuu performances I've heard in any show. If we had had the Awards when SR was released, I would have had no problems voting for Takahashi Hiroki (Harima), and maybe even Koshimizu Ami (Tenma), for best lead voice acting. Noto Mamiko (Yakumo) and Horie Yui (Eri) could both easily have contended for best supporting actresses.

Well voting for school rumble would be your opinion but i doubt too many people will share it though. As for Koshimizu, i would say that's quite an unique role of hers (i don't think she uses that Tenma type voice in any role besides school rumble and in the last school rumble oav that came out several years after the anime she could not deliver the same voice as in the anime) but it still was in my opinion one of her earlier and inexperienced roles. I think she has improved greatly over the several years by getting more varied and also more serious type of roles and i personally would never call Tenma her best performance.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SeijiSensei

Moreover comedies get much more viewing than serious dramas. To my mind the best drama of 2010 was House of Five Leaves. Its thread here contains a grand total of 270 postings. Even mediocre comedy series get much more traffic than that. Since popularity plays an enormous role in the nomination and voting process, I'd argue that dramas are more likely to be under-represented, not the reverse.

Comedies might get more viewings but if you remove all the genres, then we only have these left

-{B1}- [TV series]
-{B2}- [Movie/OVA/Shorts]
-{C1}- [Storyline/Plot]
-{C2}- [Adaptation]
-{C3}- [Original Story]
-{C4}- [Female Main Character]
-{C5}- [Male Main Character]
-{C6}- [Female Supporting Character]
-{C7}- [Male Supporting Character]
-{C8}- [Antagonist]
-{D1}- [Visuals/Animation]
-{D2}- [Opening/Ending Song]
-{D3}- [Soundtrack]

They might have a chance for best TV series, movie/ova/shorts and adaption if they are really and I mean really good, but otherwise i have doubts that a comedy will win the other categories no matter how popular it is.

Stealther · 2012-01-20, 09:18

So, if we have one conclusion each:

1. Animes with the correct main genre(s) should be able to win in their respective genres, because otherwise there is no actual distinction between genres.
Those people who share this view prefer accuracy over representativity.
or
2. Both genre animes and non-genre animes should be able to win, because non-genre animes can be more fulfilling in that aspect. Which makes it recommendable.

hyl · 2012-01-20, 09:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stealther

So, if we have one conclusion each:

1. Animes with the correct main genre(s) should be able to win in their respective genres, because otherwise there is no actual distinction between genres.
Those people who share this view prefer accuracy over representativity.
or
2. Both genre animes and non-genre animes should be able to win, because non-genre animes can be more fulfilling in that aspect. Which makes it recommendable.

You probably have no idea what the words accuracy and representivity means when it comes to statistics and sampling if you removed it from my sentence.
Also you replaced my objective statements with subjective ones, which does make it look more biased when it comes to conclusions though.

Stealther · 2012-01-20, 09:24

Funny guy, I do reseach irl, I think I know more about statistics and sampling than you do (and the correct terms are reliability and validity). It's more like you added things like "high votes should be able to win". No shit Sherlock, it's a voting. Then removing the point that non-genre animes can have an element of that genre that is more satisfying than genre animes.

Sackett · 2012-01-20, 09:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stealther

Cross Game won romance last year. It isn't primarily romance either.

Actually that's rather arguable.

Adachi's works are almost always romances. In fact there are even in universe jokes about it.

Including in Cross Game: "This guy's manga aren't really that much about baseball"

2012-01-19, 04:02	Link #201
Stealther Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2008	I still disagree that it is as little of a romance as you think, but let's leave that. What matters is that a huge amount of the people voted for S;G in romance. Basically you're saying all these people voted wrong. Is it really so? Is it that hard to vote for "Best Romance?" that the majority would fail? Couldn't it be so that this is a deserved winner in romance, and that the majority thinks this approach is fine too when its executed unusually well, in combination with an overall poor year for romance? (and as we already concluded, there's nothing you can do about people not having watched everything. popularity is a part of all open awards) I'm generally against restrictions, especially when restrictions aren't even needed. If you absolutely need a restriction, and it comes true, you need to make absolutely sure it doesn't backfire in any case, and only serves its intended use. Saying that a series can only have 2 main genres or only excel in a maximum of two is not true. Three might cover most, but it's still an arbitrary number by gut feeling. Not a well-defined rule. EDIT: Rather than hiding behind your -rep you're allowed to discuss with me here or via PM . Why is this so hard to understand? Yes, I get that you don't see S;G as a romance anime. But you're neglecting everyone who thinks that despite this, it's good enough to be voted in romance. Can you see it from this point? Last edited by Stealther; 2012-01-19 at 08:00.

2012-01-19, 21:58	Link #206
Sackett Cross Game - I need more Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: I've moved around the American West. I've lived in Oregon, Washington, Utah, and Oklahoma Age: 44	Well, I'd like to say that I just finished watching the four contenders for best OP/ED and I'm wondering how I'm going to make my decision of which to vote for. They are all pretty darn good. __________________ Cross Game - A Story of Love, Life, Death - and Baseball. What more could you want?

2012-01-20, 08:09	Link #213
SeijiSensei AS Oji-kun Join Date: Nov 2006 Age: 74	Perhaps we should just eliminate the genre categories altogether. Letting any show be nominated in any category suggests to me that genre isn't really a very meaningful way to categorize anime. This extended argument over whether Steins;Gate is, or is not, a romance just makes the point. I've argued repeatedly on the forums that genre is an over-emphasized and often uninformative characteristic of anime. Excellence is excellence regardless. I'd rather we focus more on scripts, performances, music, artwork, etc., and spend less time worrying about how to draw little boxes around groups of shows. __________________ Taking Anime Seriously - Politics by the Numbers - Sports by the Numbers - MAL List - Avatars - Images

2012-01-19, 08:28	Link #203
Kameruka Hen-Tie Join Date: Apr 2010 Location: Hen-Tie pen	Most people confused between "best" and "popular". I liked Mashiro-iro Symphony more than Kimi ni Todoke but KnT is better romance show than MiS.

2012-01-20, 04:38	Link #208
Stealther Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2008	Both Kanon (2006) and Clannad S1 won best romance previous years. Do they really contain much more romance than S;G? From first episodes it's obvious who the fated ones are, but you still have to go through all kinds of daily activities, and help all sidecharacters with their problems (so you can get into their pants), until last arc when it's more fullblown drama/romance. As a matter of fact most harem romances follow this build-up. Just because you throw some sci-fi and mystery instead of daily life into it doesn't means it becomes less, or the romance is worse. Cross Game won romance last year. It isn't primarily romance either. Still, what you want to do is to decide everyone's opinion of what is worthy of calling a romance. Not just yourself. Let's just everyone decide their own interpretation. The fact that S;G still got so many votes is telling a lot. It might be rare to excel at more than 3 genres, but in the end that's just an arbitrary number, not a well-defined rule. What happens when it comes an anime that is truly good in 4 genres, and the competition is not that stiff. Then it hurts the anime which only crime was to be exceptionally good and diverse. I can't say I can think of many, but one that instantly pops into mind is Kaiba. Love-story in a fantasy setting (some think sci-fi), while being a mystery cause the protagonist lost his memories, and it's very dramatic/tragedic as well.

2012-01-20, 05:42	Link #211
Stealther Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2008	We won't ever agree, so I'll just rest my case here. In the meanwhile you can think of a system that doesn't hurt unintended animes, and I might even be fine with it. Kaiba is definitely in a supernatural setting, and love driving from first episode, together with mystery because of amnesia, and there's tons of drama and tragedy as well. Any set limit is just not a well-thought rule imo. Conclusion: 1. Only genre animes should win in genre because otherwise you can't recommend it. or 2. Both genre animes and non-genre animes should be able to win, because non-genre animes can be more fulfilling in that aspect. Which makes it recommendable.

2012-01-20, 09:18	Link #217
Stealther Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2008	So, if we have one conclusion each: 1. Animes with the correct main genre(s) should be able to win in their respective genres, because otherwise there is no actual distinction between genres. Those people who share this view prefer accuracy over representativity. or 2. Both genre animes and non-genre animes should be able to win, because non-genre animes can be more fulfilling in that aspect. Which makes it recommendable.

2012-01-20, 09:24	Link #219
Stealther Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2008	Funny guy, I do reseach irl, I think I know more about statistics and sampling than you do (and the correct terms are reliability and validity). It's more like you added things like "high votes should be able to win". No shit Sherlock, it's a voting. Then removing the point that non-genre animes can have an element of that genre that is more satisfying than genre animes.