(L) Kimi ni Todoke (Reaching You) [Anime]

[Daniel E.]

Originally Posted by MeoTwister5

If Kurumi isn't obssessive and only in love then Jeebus H Christ I'd hate to find a completely obssessed one to the point of clear cut depravity.

There's certainly room for her to be a lot worse than she is now.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

but I don't understand why some people are trying to defend her current actions and approach to Kazehaya. They're pretty clear-cut, imo.

It's more about trying to understand her actions and the drive that fuels them.

I do not like her tactics and certainly hope that she gets exposed eventually, at the same time however, I do feel there's more to her than simply being the villian of the story.

Or perhaps I should say that I truly hope there's more to her than just that.

[tsukimoto]

Is Kurumi appearing at Kazehaya's window every night?

No.

Is Kurumi calling Kazehaya like how Miyako left messages for Hiro in ef?

No.

Carving his name into her arm?
Becoming delusional and thinking she's already Kazehaya's girlfriend?
Refusing to acknowledge that there are other girls Kazehaya can like?

No, no, and no.

Kurumi is being a typical middle school girl who isn't getting the guy she wants. When people can't get what they want, they tend to try different methods to achieve their goals. Sure people are getting hurt and mixed up with their feelings from the things Kurumi intentionally do, but are they killing themselves over it? Is anyone hallucinating or falling into bouts of depression? Minor depression maybe, but really, whose life is perfect and hasn't gone through any period of time of sadness and misery?

So until Kurumi starts acting like an ef girl, please don't label her with major psychological disorders.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by DragoZERO

The fact is Kurumi is driven by her love. She may be obsessed, she may be like a stalker, but its because of her love. And for that, not everyone can condemn her.

She definitely needs a little help though, and hopefully before she goes yandere too.

She's already a yandere character type, imo. She's just a very sly one.

Originally Posted by Daniel E.

There's certainly room for her to be a lot worse than she is now.

Certainly.

That doesn't mean that she isn't obsessed with Kazehaya though... because she is, imo.

It's more about trying to understand her actions and the drive that fuels them.

I do think that she has real feelings for Kazehaya. That is definitely part of what fuels her actions.

However... I very strongly dislike the idea that Kurumi's "being a typical middle school girl who isn't getting the guy she wants", because that implies that her behavior is normal and acceptable... and it isn't.

I don't think that most girls would go to the lengths that she has gone to. It's not normal to sabotage a guy's lovelife because you refuse to let him be with somebody other than you... and at the same time to not pursue him in a straightforward way whatsoever.

That's a key factor for me. Kazehaya seems to have little to no clue to the feelings that Kurumi has for him.

I do not like her tactics and certainly hope that she gets exposed eventually, at the same time however, I do feel there's more to her than simply being the villian of the story.

Possibly.

Or perhaps I should say that I truly hope there's more to her than just that.

Why, if you don't mind me asking? What's wrong with an antagonist who simply serves the role of the antagonist?

Several great antagonists in fiction were never reformed into protagonists.


Now, if Kurumi becomes a protagonist then that could be interwoven into a very nice and heartwarming story, no doubt. But I don't see anything intrinsically wrong with an antagonist that simply serves the role of an antagonist.

Originally Posted by tsukimoto

Is Kurumi appearing at Kazehaya's window every night?

No.

Is Kurumi calling Kazehaya like how Miyako left messages for Hiro in ef?

No.

Carving his name into her arm?

Actually... we don't know any of these three for certain. Well, those of us unfamiliar with the source material don't know this for certain, anyway.

Becoming delusional and thinking she's already Kazehaya's girlfriend?

No, she's not doing this. You're right here.

Refusing to acknowledge that there are other girls Kazehaya can like?

Actually, this is precisely what she is doing. She is deliberately preventing Kazehaya from getting into a romantic relationship with any other girl. She's doing her best to not allow him to have such lasting romantic feelings for other girls.


Also, the broader spirit behind your arguments is flawed. There's no one strict set way that obsession manifests itself. Different people with an obsessive-compulsive disorder can act it out in different ways. A person doesn't need to cover every possible manner of acting it out in order to have obsessive-compulsive disorder; a person simply needs to demonstrate in two or three different clear ways a genuine obsession, and Kurumi has done just that.

Her comments betray how much constant attention that she pays Kazehaya (how much she has watched him through life, in her words), and how she has intentionally undermined his relationships with other girls for years.

These are two clear examples of Kurumi being obsessed over Kazehaya.

Kurumi is being a typical middle school girl who isn't getting the guy she wants.

No, she isn't being a typical middle school girl who isn't getting the guy she wants.

When people can't get what they want, they tend to try different methods to achieve their goals.

When people want a particular something as much as Kurumi does, and goes to the lengths that she does to gain it, that's an obsession, imo.

So until Kurumi starts acting like an ef girl, please don't label her with major psychological disorders.

It's not a "label"; it's a diagnosis.

Kurumi is obviously overly obsessed with Kazehaya. She needs to get over him... for her sake as well as everybody elses.

[Daniel E.]

Why, if you don't mind me asking? What's wrong with an antagonist who simply serves the role of the antagonist?

Nothing really, just like there's nothing wrong with an antagonist going beyond her/his initial role.

As for your first question.....

I think the friendship between Sawako and Kurumi can be a great thing for the show. Seeing her character develop and grow as a person is also something that I would like to see.

If she forever remains as the bad girl, we may never see another side of her character. If anything, she would only become more extreme in her role.

Several great antagonists in fiction were never reformed into protagonists.

Not saying it's something that should happen all the time, just something I would like to see happening here.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Daniel E.

Nothing really, just like there's nothing wrong with an antagonist going beyond her/his initial role.

As for your first question.....

I think the friendship between Sawako and Kurumi can be a great thing for the show. Seeing her character develop and grow as a person is also something that I would like to see.

If she forever remains as the bad girl, we may never see another side of her character. If anything, she would only become more extreme in her role.



Not saying it's something that should happen all the time, just something I would like to see happening here.

Ok, I see your point now.


Yeah, in this particular instance, a bad girl-to-protagonist switch probably has greater potential for good character development and good stories than keeping Kurumi as a bad girl.

[cheesie]

Originally Posted by tsukimoto

Kurumi is being a typical middle school girl who isn't getting the guy she wants. When people can't get what they want, they tend to try different methods to achieve their goals. Sure people are getting hurt and mixed up with their feelings from the things Kurumi intentionally do, but are they killing themselves over it? Is anyone hallucinating or falling into bouts of depression? Minor depression maybe, but really, whose life is perfect and hasn't gone through any period of time of sadness and misery?

So until Kurumi starts acting like an ef girl, please don't label her with major psychological disorders.

Spoiler for Authorial Intentions behind Kurumi, spoilers just in case:

It would appear that the author is specifically aiming to use Kurumi to provide a creative spin to the 'Evil Third Wheel' shoujo label, where, in most cases, the women in these roles would merely serve as plot devices or obstacles meant to be hated, and is usually confined within the space that the mangakas would deem them useful before they outlived their use and is pretty much forgotten. Kurumi is given all the basic traits of that label, and is provided several more dimensions to her personality and actions; things aren't as simple as they appear to be, and viewers are treated to a fresh change of this character arch type as she joins in the ranks of many other KnT characters who the author is evidently crafting with care and attention. The author's pretty much saying," Don't worry, if Kurumi's the Evil Third Wheel, then I'll make sure she'll be an awesome Evil Third Wheel." In a manga that steers clear of generic formulas, that certainly isn't surprising and as a woman who's been reading shoujo works and hating this cliche, words couldn't express how appreciative I am of this effort. Some shoujo mangakas would benefit greatly if they were to follow this direction.

(And no, as amusing as this is, yandere isn't cutting it.)

[orion]

Originally Posted by Daniel E.

It's more about trying to understand her actions and the drive that fuels them.

I do not like her tactics and certainly hope that she gets exposed eventually, at the same time however, I do feel there's more to her than simply being the villian of the story.

Or perhaps I should say that I truly hope there's more to her than just that.

And if there is more to her, it still doesn't make much of a difference. A mass murderer who happened to have been abused as a child is still a mass murderer. Sure, you can have some sympathy for the person but at the end of the day it's that body count that's going to matter.

So no matter how many excuses can be given for her actions, it's still what she does and the end result that matters. Right now, she has ruined another girl's chances by playing her for a fool (1st female who was intimidating Sawako), potentially messing with Ryu's personal life, screwing over Kazehaya's high school life having already screwed over middle school and now she's aiming at Sawako with gusto.

[Salva]

And here we go with my impressions of this episode. I had to watch it two times to catch every feeling and thought that came to my mind while watching.

First thing, the title. I've been wondering for a while what kind of meaning do they have cause they are not as annoying as titles usually are. After watching the episode I think they are pretty good and say everything in as little words as possible.

Spoiler for 12 episode, and... I warn you, this is LONG:

But about the plot. I think that Kurumi was right in what she was saying. Of course she had ill intentions and she was prepared to use dirty tricks to get Kaze but she was right telling Sawako that it would be good to talk with other guys. Has she never done that, how would she know Kaze was special in THIS way? So in fact, she really was acting like a good caring friend although we know that she isn't one, for now. What I love about Sawako is her honesty. It can beat Kurumi in one second... Sawako completely won every conversation they had. I like how Sawako doesn't try to hide her feeling for Kazehaya, they were talking about Ryuu yet she had her mind filled with Shouta. It was really nicely shown. It wasn't pleasure to watch Kurumi getting more and more confused and angry and actually losing the ground under her feet. Jealousy, fear. I can quite understand Kurumi's feeling and motives behind her actions. But that's not an excuse. She was hopelessly trying to convince mostly herself that she means more to him. If I go on like this I will start to like her, really... Scary. I didn't like how she tried to be more important and better cause she's known him for years. So what? You've known him for so long, why didn't you do anything?! She didn't even try, she was satisfied with protecting him from other girls, and that's all. Nothing more. Pathetic in my opinion. She's a coward but still tries to mess everything. In fact the moment when she remembered, this rainy, windy days made me laugh. And Sawako's shocked voice! Her replay, that Kurumi was trying so hard, I was really amused. Well, it was quite amusing too seeing how she really stopped controlling herself and let on. She had her eyes on him, but never tried to make him look at her~ And Sawako lost herself in her thoughts again, completely ignoring Kurumi. That was beautiful. She beat her up with single words, so easily. But I like one thing much more than others, Sawako doesn't want to back off, she didn't even think about it. Maybe cause she doesn't know it's love and she doesn't see anything wrong with acting like that, but still I like it a lot.

Another scene shows that Sawako is looking at Kaze, but they maliciously showed Kaze when she was looking at Ryuu. Annoying thing and I would hate it in any other anime, but here I was quite sure they won't mess up. And Kazehaya didn't betray my expectations. It was so simple yet so surprising. It was the right thing to do. To ask directly, not hiding, not pretending every thing's okay when it's not. He felt unsure, envious so he simply asked Ryuu about it. Well, it's not good that I'm moved by such simple scene, but it's so rare in anime. That we have such a character who wouldn't hesitate to ask when he's bothered by something. For Japanese standards he may be even called impulsive... He was so cute, worried. He's like a lost puppy. The best kind of person to tease, to laugh with, to hug. Sometimes manly, sometimes like a little boy. On the contrary Ryuu is opposite. But about Ryuu I will write later. Shouta had such cute reaction to her name when Ryuu said it. He's so obvious. I don't understand how Kurumi can hurt him with her actions. I wouldn't be able to loook him in the eye after lying. I wouldn't be able to lie to such a person in the first place. I don't know what it is but I love small proofs of man's jealousy, and when Shouta said with angered chibi face taht Ryuu should cal her "Kuronuma" probably not wanting Ryuu to be so close to Sawako. I love it xD And then Ryuu laughed, I would also laugh at Shouta, he was so serious, so honest. So Cute.

I'm ending up rehearsing all episode but I can't help it! Pin... Pin was so incredibly... I don't know which word should I use, he overtook Kurumi with his dumbness. And for the first time I was glad someone was this... stupid. You know, now that I look at him, he reminds me somehow of Fujimoto. The difference is I slightly like Pin but can't stand Fuji at all. He was so gorgeous not reacting to Ume-chan's charm even a tiny little bit. I find it really amusing when she's walking all high and mighty but in fact she cannot be flexible and handle people she cannot understand. The scene itself was pretty funny although I was worried about what she planned. It was obvious it was something not-nice. And even if she wasn't 100% sure it was the right thing to do, she hesitated for a second, it wasn't enough for me to lose my worries. And then she encountered Yano-chin. I've loved her since the beginning but this one conversation with Kurumi made me love her even more! It was hilarious. Like two wild animals sending warnings from afar and showing their fangs. Well, Kurumi was already defeated. She could control herself but still she was rather pathetic answering Yano-chin and defending rather than attacking. I liked it a lot. I've known for few episodes now that Yano-chin was the best informed person and she basically knew everything about what was happening. And I waited patiently for her to show some hidden power. She's the kind of girl I really respect. She is powerful and dangerous when she wants, but most of the time she has her claws hidden. I love the feeling I felt when she was protecting Sawako. I'm really sensitive to such things. She played all conversation wisely and to make Kurumi insecure and to let her feel that she won't allow dirty tricks. She challenged her in a pretty elegant way.

It would be really dark and heave scene if Ryuu weren't there soon after. Kyaaa, I finally got to him! He's so... indifferent? He's calm, quiet, but still a very good observer. He doesn't talk much but with a lot of sense. He's pretty interesting. Doing what he wants, not bothering himself with other people if there is no need. And he wanted to simply take a nap xD He resolved the problem of meeting with Sawako hilariously... Sleeping next to the place they were supposed to meet. I laughed hard. But I didn't like that much the actual scene. I mean, I was pissed by Sawako's naivete. Her reaction when she saw the note was too much. I didn't like it. It was really stupid and annoying. She should ask him where did he find it and try to figure out who did it. She didn't pay any attention to it. But the conversation itself was again wonderful.The beginning of it when they were staring at blue sky... I realized then that they can be really good friends with strong bond between them. And that Ryuu is so warm, calm, responsible and so so warm. You know, the kind of person you can sit with and be silent without any uncomfortable feelings. I melted when he so obviously said he's in love with Chizuru, and when he started to talk about how important she is to him. He smiled beautifully. He won me over in an instant. What made me smile was when Sawako confused him for a moment with her question. Well if we had two any other people it would be really funny in itself and really... suspicious. The two of them, alone, and she asks him what romantic feelings are. And here we have these two people and there is nothing wrong with it at all. His response to her question, when he lowered his head to her level, and smiled so warmly and then started to talk about Chizuru... My heart was filled with overwhelming warmth.

And then we were interrupted by Kurumi. I hated her for what he's done this time. Well, she didn't lie that much, but still she was pretty well aware of the situation and tried to use it for herself. Nothing that bad, everyone wants to be happy. Right, but as I said. I wouldn't be able to look into his face knowing I destroyed something so simply and selfishly. She's really cruel, hurting him like this. Nothing would be wrong if Ryuu told Shouta about his feelings for Chizu, but I guess between guys is somewhat different and they probably doesn't have the need to discuss it like girls do. Or Ryuu didn't think there was any need to tell him that. He reminds me here of Ren from Skip Beat. Loving, but still not saying a word about it.

Finally we got to last scene where Kaze saw them together. For a moment I doubted they will resolve it in a good way. But Kazehaya is still Kazehaya. I was getting more and more anxious about this ep but then he moved in their direction, and as we were shown in the last second he stole her and run away. It was... so like him. Impulsive, acting on emotions, not rationally. I love such situations. For a moment I thought he was going to punch Ryuu but that wasn't it. He didn't see him, he saw her, happy, without him. I guess this is what moved him the most. Kurumi lost. Definietly. And I'm glad, she doesn't deserve him at all. Acting like that, I really hated her. Although I must say that it didn't move me much when I was watching it again, only at first I was really angry. Later on I was searching for hints on what could happen next. And I'm satisfied, I have nice certainty how it would turn out. And I cannot wait to see next episode.

This anime wakes up so many emotions within me. I'm really amazed, it's been a while since I enjoyed watching anything that much. That I felt the urge to write about it so... much. In the past I used to write a lot about series but I stopped it, and here we go with such big posts. I'm amazed, really. I love this anime, this characters, everything about it. Sometimes it gets annoying, sometimes too naive and slow, but overall I longed for a romance like that. I can completely lost myself in such a world. I'm glad it's so unreal and innocent. That's why I watch anime! If I wanted realism I would go outside, sometimes I want to rest and take a break, and then animes like Kimi ni can really heal a soul.

[Daniel E.]

Originally Posted by orion

And if there is more to her, it still doesn't make much of a difference. A mass murderer who happened to have been abused as a child is still a mass murderer. Sure, you can have some sympathy for the person but at the end of the day it's that body count that's going to matter.

A strange comparison, if you can actually call it one.

And being more to her would actually make a world of difference, IMHO. Kurumi has yet to kill anybody () and still has a chance to recover from her obsession, me thinks.

Originally Posted by orion

So no matter how many excuses can be given for her actions, it's still what she does and the end result that matters. Right now, she has ruined another girl's chances by playing her for a fool (1st female who was intimidating Sawako),

She ruined all her chances all on her own. Ganging up on Sawako, attacking her in the restroom, making fun of her friends, etc. If she did all that because of the rumors, then it was her using said rumors as an excuse to vent her sentimental frustations.

Originally Posted by orion

potentially messing with Ryu's personal life

Only Sawako knows about Ryu's true feelings and she only learned about them until recently. For Kurumi, Ryu could have been just a free dude that she could push Sawako to.

Kurumi is obviously trying to use Ryu to achieve her goal, but how far she is willing to play this card is something that remains to be seen.

Originally Posted by orion

screwing over Kazehaya's high school life having already screwed over middle school and now she's aiming at Sawako with gusto.

Remember that it was all the girls interested in him that started the whole "Kazehaya is everyone's" thing. They were also the ones that decided to "protect him" from any potential love rival.

Regardless of her intelligence, Kurumi can only manipulate people up to a certain point. If we are going to blame her for screwing Kazehaya's relationships in school, then we must blame all the other girls interested in him as well.

[orion]

Originally Posted by Daniel E.

lots of stuff..

You're dealing with a psycho Sae here.

Spoiler for Sae:

A most evil third wheel that ever existed who knew no low to get what she wanted. She's in Peach Girl.

Whether or not she recovers doesn't matter for all the sh*t she caused. Just like that murderer who reformed while in prison, tough sh*t. You're still responsible for your crimes.

She dragged Ryu in when she had no business. Instead of approaching Kazehaya on her own and getting rejected, she took the coward's way out and manipulates Sawako and Ryu into a bad situation. It didn't matter what Ryu said. It's the fact that Kazehaya saw Sawako and Ryu together that counted. The expected response was for Kazehaya to abandon Sawako with Kurumi there to comfort him and eventually go out with him.

She manipulated that other girl into spreading the rumors and intimidation. Kurumi can not be caught doing something "dirty". While it doesn't absolve the other girl from responsibility, knowing Kurumi is behind it all means that she bears a majority share in it.

It's pretty obvious about Ryu if you've been following the episodes. Kurumi is from the same middle school as Ryu and Chizu. I doubt that she hasn't figured that part out.

And with that "all girls thing", girls normally don't care about "all girls <insert guy's name here> "and it didn't stop her from stalking him or sabotaging another girl. (her admission). I wouldn't be surprised if she was behind the "all girls Kazehaya" thing too. Again, while the other participants can't be absolved for stupidity, the perpertrator of that plan (most likely Kurumi) has major responsibility imo.

[Daniel E.]

Originally Posted by orion

Whether or not she recovers doesn't matter for all the sh*t she caused. Just like that murderer who reformed while in prison, tough sh*t. You're still responsible for your crimes.

Her errors will always be there, true, yet, it is something she can learn to live with, something she can learn from.

Again, I do not believe her to be a saint nor do I think she is a better person than Sawako.

Originally Posted by orion

She dragged Ryu in when she had no business. Instead of approaching Kazehaya on her own and getting rejected, she took the coward's way out and manipulates Sawako and Ryu into a bad situation.

This will be something interesting to see in future episodes, why Kurumi doesn't approach and confess to Kazehaya directly, that is. She could be afraid of rejection, she may be secretly shy in nature, heck, she could have though of him as a "sure thing", only waiting for the perfect time to confess.

And the thing with Ryu is just Kurumi getting desperate, me thinks (read: not a lot of though into it). The rumors and the "Kazehaya is everyone's" schemes were pretty elaborated compared to this.

While it is spiced with evil and wickedness, this strikes me more as a result of fear and insecurity.

She manipulated that other girl into spreading the rumors and intimidation. Kurumi can not be caught doing something "dirty". While it doesn't absolve the other girl from responsibility, knowing Kurumi is behind it all means that she bears a majority share in it.

Unless I missed something along the way, I do not remember Kurumi manipulating anyone to bully Sawako in the girls restroom. The rumors were also aimed at her friends and not Sawako herself.

The other girl's jealousy was likely there the moment Kazehaya started to talk with Sawako often. Sawako herself also tried to clear the rumor and the other girl didn't care about that; She didn't cared because the rumors by themselves where not all that important to the real issue happening there.

It's pretty obvious about Ryu if you've been following the episodes. Kurumi is from the same middle school as Ryu and Chizu. I doubt that she hasn't figured that part out.

That's the viewers perspective. What is obvious to us is not always so obvious to the characters themselves

And before talking with Sawako about it, he hadn't discussed this with anyone. He is also a pretty quiet fellow, so I have the seriously wonder about Kurumi knowing anything regarding his feelings.

Let us also remember that Kurumi wants the two to end together; If she knew about Ryu's feelings, why send Sawako to him in the first place?

and it didn't stop her from stalking him

This is another point I would like to see in a bit more detail in the anime.

Just how far does Kurumi's stalking goes?

She is pretty much not there during the initial episodes and all her stalking scenes appear to happen withing the school itself for the most part.

[orion]

Yeah, you need to rewatch. The rumor escalation started after Kazehaya was getting closer to Sawako. It started with Sawako is using Kazehaya et al to get popular, then escalated to the other girls were bad saying that Sawako said it. Kazehaya losing popularity if he continued to hang with Sawako was added for a nice touch.
The altercation in the bathroom is partially fueled by the rumor that Sawako started the rumor about her friends. The head girl thought that Sawako used the other 2 to get to Kazehaya and subsequently discarded them after she got what she wanted. (ep.5) Sawako was getting Kazehaya and she wasn't so she resorted to the bullying tactic to see if Sawako would back down in the end. So basically, Kurumi is majorly responsible for that altercation imo taking advantage of frustrated girls who bought into the "All Girls Kazehaya" scheme in middle school.

Kurumi knew both Ryu and Chizu from middle school. It was remarked how the person spreading the rumors knew alot about Chizu.

Anime Rule of Childhood Friends Learned from Angelic Layer: Childhood friends don't continue to hang around past elem school unless they are dating. Those 2 are hanging. They were prob rumors floating around about them also.

Originally Posted by Daniel E.

This is another point I would like to see in a bit more detail in the anime.

Just how far does Kurumi's stalking goes?

She is pretty much not there during the initial episodes and all her stalking scenes appear to happen withing the school itself for the most part.

She'd be noticed too much outside of school grounds. Remember she doesn't want to get caught.

[Daniel E.]

Originally Posted by orion

She'd be noticed too much outside of school grounds. Remember she doesn't want to get caught.

That would soften the stalking quite a bit, specially if you consider that she can't be following him all the time while at school.

Watching him while he practices sports or as he leaves the school would hardly qualify as stalking in my book.

Regarding the rumor incident, I was mostly talking about why the incident had happened and not about how the rumor itself had developed. As it is, I still think the girls bullied Sawako out of jealousy, simply using the rumors as a way/excuse to attack and provoke her.

Anime Rule of Childhood Friends Learned from Angelic Layer: Childhood friends don't continue to hang around past elem school unless they are dating. Those 2 are hanging. They were prob rumors floating around about them also.

Not really sure how to take it from here.

Speculating with a twist?

[orion]

Originally Posted by Daniel E.

That would soften the stalking quite a bit, specially if you consider that she can't be following him all the time while at school.

Watching him while he practices sports or as he leaves the school would hardly qualify as stalking in my book.

Rewatch that flashback. She's peeping from behind the school gate during a blizzard. The only one.

That anime rule is an old one that is used alot.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by orion

Instead of approaching Kazehaya on her own and getting rejected, she took the coward's way out and manipulates Sawako and Ryu into a bad situation.

This is my biggest problem with Kurumi (in bold).

Kurumi is not trying at all to win Kazehaya over directly; to try to, say, flirt with him, for example.

If she did compliment her manipulations with straightforward romantic appeals to Kazehaya that might seem somewhat normal to me; still not good, but at least normal.

But, as is, she's really messing up Kazehaya's life, and badly. Until she ceases doing that, it's hard for me to like her at all.

She manipulated that other girl into spreading the rumors and intimidation. Kurumi can not be caught doing something "dirty". While it doesn't absolve the other girl from responsibility, knowing Kurumi is behind it all means that she bears a majority share in it.

I'm actually going to play devil's advocate here a bit... do we know for certain that Kurumi was the mastermind behind what that other girl and her gang was doing?

And, even if Kurumi was the person who came up with the idea, the other girls had to be pretty bad bullies to go along with it anyway.


Anyway, my views on Kurumi are closer to yours than they are to her defenders... but I'm willing to accept her as a protagonist as long as she takes an image hit for her wrong-doing. I really do want to see her wrong-doing to be revealed to Kazehaya and the rest of the protagonist cast.

[orion]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

I'm actually going to play devil's advocate here a bit... do we know for certain that Kurumi was the mastermind behind what that other girl and her gang was doing?

And, even if Kurumi was the person who came up with the idea, the other girls had to be pretty bad bullies to go along with it anyway.

This ain't Hamlet here. Only one bad apple is being identified so far and she has admitted to doing stuff in the past. Also, you got that Kurumi shot at the end listening in on what the girl did after the fact.

As explained earlier, they were upset over alot of things that they heard and the fact that Sawako is close to Kazehaya. All that repressed stuff from holding it in during middle school came out. They're prob kicking themselves in the ass for being so stupid. Multifactorial.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by orion

This ain't Hamlet here. Only one bad apple is being identified so far and she has admitted to doing stuff in the past.

As explained earlier, they were upset over alot of things that they heard and the fact that Sawako is close to Kazehaya. All that repressed stuff from holding it in during middle school. They're prob kicking themselves in the ass for being so stupid. Multifactorial.

Ok, I see what you're saying...

Kurumi's "Kazehaya belongs equally to every girl!" diplomatic compromise probably caused more harm than good, long-term.

[tsukimoto]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

It's not a "label"; it's a diagnosis.

Thank you Dr. Triple_R. I never knew Kurumi went to your office for a psychiatric assessment. All is clear now.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

No, she isn't being a typical middle school girl who isn't getting the guy she wants.

Because being over ten years out of middle/high school has obviously strengthened your memory and knowledge of teenagers in middle/high school nowadays. I can't be a voice for school life of today, but kimitodo isn't that far off from what I've seen. This is my personal opinion, and I'm not going to label or diagnose Kurumi with anything, but I am going to argue that yes, based on my experience of today's high school life, Kurumi doesn't seem to be far off from anything socially acceptable.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Actually, this is precisely what she is doing. She is deliberately preventing Kazehaya from getting into a romantic relationship with any other girl. She's doing her best to not allow him to have such lasting romantic feelings for other girls.

Well, deliberately preventing Kazehaya from getting it on with other girls would mean that she DOES acknowledge that there ARE other girls! I'm saying she actually acknowledges that Kazehaya ISN'T into her, and is doing her best to get him. That, in my opinion is quite a normal mindset. Now in comparison, a non-socially accepted mindset would be Kurumi already CONVINCED that she's Kazehaya's girlfriend aka Kazehaya has already accepted her as his girlfriend.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Also, the broader spirit behind your arguments is flawed. There's no one strict set way that obsession manifests itself. Different people with an obsessive-compulsive disorder can act it out in different ways. A person doesn't need to cover every possible manner of acting it out in order to have obsessive-compulsive disorder; a person simply needs to demonstrate in two or three different clear ways a genuine obsession, and Kurumi has done just that.

"genuine obsession"? You'll have to elaborate, thanks. Also, yes, according to DSM-IV and many other diagnostic tools, disorders DO manifest in countless ways. HOWEVER, in order for a diagnosis, doctors have to dig deeper and talk to the ones in question face to face. Otherwise, everything else is mere speculation. 'Cause y'know, that's what doctors are for.

This is where the writers limit our observations, we are only given so much on the characters, so unless Kurumi actually goes through a psychiatric assessment in the story, we can only speculate.

I'm not trying to point out my argument about the status of Kurumi's mental status. I'm just saying there is no possible way to "diagnose" characters from a subjective view and went out of my way to exaggerate that point in my last post. Alot of things written here have so much bias and personal thought added in; and conclusions made from that are called speculations, not diagnoses.

[CALGARYSUX]

Originally Posted by tsukimoto

Thank you Dr. Triple_R. I never knew Kurumi went to your office for a psychiatric assessment. All is clear now.



Because being over ten years out of middle/high school has obviously strengthened your memory and knowledge of teenagers in middle/high school nowadays. I can't be a voice for school life of today, but kimitodo isn't that far off from what I've seen. This is my personal opinion, and I'm not going to label or diagnose Kurumi with anything, but I am going to argue that yes, based on my experience of today's high school life, Kurumi doesn't seem to be far off from anything socially acceptable.



Well, deliberately preventing Kazehaya from getting it on with other girls would mean that she DOES acknowledge that there ARE other girls! I'm saying she actually acknowledges that Kazehaya ISN'T into her, and is doing her best to get him. That, in my opinion is quite a normal mindset. Now in comparison, a non-socially accepted mindset would be Kurumi already CONVINCED that she's Kazehaya's girlfriend aka Kazehaya has already accepted her as his girlfriend.



"genuine obsession"? You'll have to elaborate, thanks. Also, yes, according to DSM-IV and many other diagnostic tools, disorders DO manifest in countless ways. HOWEVER, in order for a diagnosis, doctors have to dig deeper and talk to the ones in question face to face. Otherwise, everything else is mere speculation. 'Cause y'know, that's what doctors are for.

This is where the writers limit our observations, we are only given so much on the characters, so unless Kurumi actually goes through a psychiatric assessment in the story, we can only speculate.

I'm not trying to point out my argument about the status of Kurumi's mental status. I'm just saying there is no possible way to "diagnose" characters from a subjective view and went out of my way to exaggerate that point in my last post. Alot of things written here have so much bias and personal thought added in; and conclusions made from that are called speculations, not diagnoses.

I totally agree.
Tsukimoto has made a great point!!

On a side note: Canucks beat Oilers woohoo!!

[Daniel E.]

Originally Posted by orion

Rewatch that flashback. She's peeping from behind the school gate during a blizzard. The only one.

Yeah, I remember that one. I though it kinda gave a romantic vibe to Kurumi's flashback.

Then again, It never snows were I live, so what do I know.