2008-08-30, 17:41 | Link #101 | ||||||
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As far as Taiga concerns, well, it’s very subjective whether one finds her mood swings believable, appealing, or whatnot. But as for me, she is probably the most likeable out of all her cousins (i.e. Shana, Nagi, and Louise). The reason being is how “well defined” are her “tsun” and “dere” side; and by this I mean that there’s a “clear” motive for the actions leading into her fear-inducing behavior. Acting tough, so nobody would ever discover that she is actually weak and defenseless—hurting herself while walking, being unable to take care of herself, or simply defeated by her own doubts and embarrassment when it comes to the person she loves—and that’s the intrinsic dere side she wants to hide from the outside world by “doing the opposite.” Quote:
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Taiga is not interested in Ryuji; she even dismisses his servitude when the misunderstandings went out of control (see chapter 8 or 9). Her dere side, so far, contrary to her cousins, serve for the purpose of showing that she is weak, lonely, and powerless—and not simply because she wants to win points with the audience. Quote:
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Never hold back if you have something inside of your chest. |
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2008-08-30, 18:04 | Link #102 | ||||||||
阿賀野型3番艦、矢矧 Lv180
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In the vast majority of the archtype, tsundere are of course dishonest and helpless with the other character. The problem with Taiga is the "scale" of such unability to interact well, which is even worse when the said character is a complete stranger. In such case, the problem with her character (in my case, of course) is that Taiga is simply not viewing her surrounding "properly" and only has her objective in mind. In a sense, it gives her some charm of "honesty" as she isn't like the usual "coward" tsundere. But as a trade off, she is really not acting "decently" with the person who is hardly responsible for her predicament. I know it is difficult for such kind of character to realize and admit their fault, but using others as sand bag and blame object isn't exactly giving much lovely points in my books. That is in the end, rather a reaction with my taste. Fortunately, I had to expect a tsundere, otherwise, it would have given up on this series far sooner if not "prepared" Quote:
The problem I see here is the "reason" for the tsun and how the "compensation" the dere offer is vastly inferior to the tsun. Of course, I don't expect characters being "balanced", especially for the tsundere archtype, but it is not exactly the presence of dere that can justify the tsun itself. In the end, not only the dere fails to justify the tsun, but the tsun itself has quite huge proportions, which is difficult to understand even with her background story explained. I can understand that life can be a crappy and whatnot, but I have difficult time to give credit to a character that is unable to realize their wrong doing and/or when they do, but just don't do anything against it. (as shown, Taiga realizes how she is trampling on Ryuji. However, she simply does NOT correct herself, not even a simple minimum. This example has its spike on chapter 11, page 24). Quote:
This is where the problem lies: as much as I can see "too good to be true" female characters (such like Haruka from Nogizaka Haruka no Himitsu), Ryuji is the straight male equivalent without being fluffy, though the situations are definitely beyond the scope of his ability to cope any harsh blow. Ryuji often complained about Taiga. His relationship with her is actually a huge hinderance for his conquest for Minori. And finally, he doesn't have a clear token of appreciation from taiga. Yet, he is able to follow her as a dog? I understand that a benevolent character can help someone even unrelated/in a very difficult situation without much a reason (after all, helping others "shouldn't" require ulterior motives). However, in Ryuji's case, helping Taiga is hardly as something he would do willingly: he was threatened to death and, despite he somehow manage to accept and swear aid to Taiga, the latter seize the opportunity and make him as her "useless dog" slave. As result, one should question how the hell someone can stay "okay" when you are abused, seen as a pet, and even insulted/considered as useless. Quote:
That line was perhaps used without much comparison, but I really believe that it is not exactly a standard that "protagonist" are able to break. You can obviously find worse in the large anime/manga universe, but... there is some limits in the "black light portrayal" you can give to a lead protagonist character. Quote:
Obviously, Toradora isn't a triangle romance at all. However, there is absolutely no reason to rule out a possible relationship between Taiga and Ryuji. Taiga's various dere reactions and her confession towards Kitamura are huge clues that Ryuji is not a "mere guy" for her. Why would she loses her "defense" when Ryuji wanted to stay by her side? Honestly, I doubt how their mutual crush can be a sealed "fate". Quote:
Of course, I didn't say that all the dere are selfdom shown to "counter balance" Taiga. But like I said, the tsun itself is the issue here. And being "weak" whatsoever does NOT give you the right to treat other people like rag, especially if they are helping you in good faith. In short, Taiga scored with dominant black negative points with me as the proportions and "justification" of her tsun are difficult to feel empathy with. I don't expect a clear pattern of reactions, but Taiga digged her own grave when her tsun side is hardly helping her weak side. The rough facade she is using with Ryuji is hardly a proof of using a guise. The very moment she implied she will do anything to counter Ryuji's chance to hook with Minori until she has her own happiness is beyond astonishment. And her weak side is not explaining such selfishness in detriment of other people "will" and aspirations. I may take her bitch side too seriously and that in the end, TD should be taken "lightly" (considering its sheer amount of improbably situation and slapstick comedy). However, it does not lessen the "wrong" of a character, just because the scope of a series/genre can allow such extremes. Quote:
Of course, things can change if they change the scope and tone down things, but actually, most manga can be used a possible "preview" of what you can expect from an anime series, until they completely go on the left field in their adaptation.
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2008-08-30, 23:41 | Link #104 |
Go to DMC! Go to DMC!
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One thing to note - the 'false dere' in Chapter 11 that gets quoted is not exactly 'false dere' - or I wouldn't call it that; that's what Ami's been doing in volume 2 when she's putting on her 'good girl face' for everyone, including Kitamura. I thought that was more to show she was enjoying the situation, and was just a bit happy that Ryuji wanted to continue to keep her company even after she tried to tell him to go away. Basically this meant she was no longer completely alone (which was a problem/phobia of hers since early childhood) and her extra-tsun was how she tried to cover her feelings of inferiority and loneliness by acting in a way which prevented her from getting into embarassing situations.
Or at least, this is what Minorin believes, along with Ryuji. She's certainly less psychotic and yandere-like than someone like, say... Louise, who immediately tries to kill Saito the moment he sees her in the vicinity of another girl. Taiga mostly tries to beat Ryuji down some, although she backs off if things are getting too serious (unless her embarassment overrides her common sense). Now, I can't speak for the anime - the character designs (and the way they resemble Ryoko from Haruhi and Chiaki from Minami-ke) alone scare me into thinking J.C. Staff will screw up the anime as badly as they did ZnT in its translation from novel to anime format. For some reason, I'm imagining them using the familiar character designs as a way to hook accidental viewers who think they're watching Haruhi or Minami-ke and hoping they stay for the rest of the show... |
2008-08-31, 12:39 | Link #105 | |||||||||||||||
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If this is sort of a continuation of the “dere should offset tsun” argument of your last post, there’s nothing I can do… I have no doubts about your dislike for Taiga’s tsun side, though I want to point out something you probably missed. She does correct herself to some extent, but it’s very subtle and I’m not sure whether the manga has already explained the details, because it’s part of Ryuji’s realization. Quote:
If that was not clear enough, let’s see how Ryuji’s and Taiga’s relationship stands. They are truly friends in the complete sense of the word. Taiga, as Kitamura pointed out, has been showing more expressions ever since she has been hanging out with Ryuji—in other words, only showing her tsun side around him. A way to express herself with somebody she knows wouldn’t mind, whereas the rest basically receives the cold shoulder. He is very special to her, but that does not necessarily mean that she would go as far as being nice—it’s not part of her character. Ryuji sees her as a friend as well, though not in the same way as Taiga. If there was no friendship in-between, he wouldn’t go as far as trying to help her in her romantic interests—she is helpless after all. Quote:
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On the other hand, I think Ryuji has already received a “thank you” from her, even if he himself did not quite realize it. By dismissing him and/or trying to fix the misunderstandings on her own. Quote:
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But before reading you post, I used to believe that Taiga was a lighter, yet more likeable version of Louise, but I guess you are finding Taiga even more detestable than Louise—for which, I cannot convince you otherwise. Quote:
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Because somebody really wants to stay by her side (she is a lonely girl who actually lives alone), put up with that character of hers, be belittled and still say that they are standing on the same ground—as tiger and dragon. Who wouldn’t be touched by an idiot like him? Quote:
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At least she is not writing names on a death note. Wait, wrong series/genre. There’s nothing really wrong with Taiga’s character as far as my experience with the manga goes and regardless of your posts claiming otherwise. She might do things wrong, but it’s an intrinsic part of her character. Would Toradora be the same if we replace Taiga for a much perfect character that can suit everybody’s preferences? Such character does not exist, but within a certain criteria, I believe Taiga is good enough with her flaws and her selfish behavior. Quote:
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As a final note, I’m not completely disagreeing with you, as I can understand why you are not finding this series easy to “digest.” I’m not trying to convince you that Taiga and Ryuji are likeable, only that they are not out-of-character by elaborating on some reasons you may or may not find agreeable. Anyway, I want to ask you something concerning this ordeal, why would Taiga need to act nice? Why would people need to act nice when it’s not part of their character? As far as your argument goes, I only saw an opinion on why you are not coming to believe either Taiga’s or Ryuji’s character/personality, for which I’m trying to respond with an opinion as well. @Haesslich Let's avoid mentioning details from the novel (not even in spoiler tags); this is the manga thread after all. |
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2008-08-31, 14:13 | Link #107 | ||||||||||||||
阿賀野型3番艦、矢矧 Lv180
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and no, they are NOT in equal grounds. Ryuji is quite honest and always tell things that might go against him. OTOH, Taiga does NOT returning the favors at all. Her "understanding" and "weak" phases are absolutely not representative of equal grounds considering how she is in tsun 90% of the time, which means: abuse. Quote:
Considering Taiga rough and strong demeanor against Ryuji despite she barely meet him at the start, it pretty much proves that she would go panzer with any stranger breaching a certain point of her intimate self. However, she "manages" to be completely dazed at her curcial part of her confession despite she could obviously ignore completely Ryuji's topic during that. Worse, she is even sidetracking her love demonstration with her relationship/feelings for Ryuji. I would not call that "normal friendship". Quote:
And honestly, I absolutely have hard time to swallow that he would be okay to be forced to postpone his attempts with Minori, just because Miss tiger WANTS her happiness before her servant. Quote:
At the very least, taiga force situations that give some possibility for Ryuji. However, these are circumstances, absolutely not Taiga's own will. Quote:
Obviously, Ryuji KNOWS she is most likely thankful, but there is a huge and great difference in "knowing someone is thankful to you" and "hearing thanks from the said person". That would have been a serious step forward, and I have yet realize any action from her that would be in such category of "thanks". Quote:
I never said Ryuji didn't know much about her. But like I said, the situations are the problems which go on contrast with Ryuji's ability to bear things. The problem isn't the character Ryuji, but how the author force things on Ryuji, through Taiga's abuse. Quote:
Louise is basically the very jealous and uncomfortable tsundere that have the horrible habit to be very dishonest and "deviant" in her treatments. Taiga is "more honest", but she is worse in some way as she doesn't have a real justification in her abuses. Why does she need to act though for her supporter instead of anyone around her? Why does she have to act like that despite the person obviously doesn't have ill motives about her weak side etc? While Taiga wins some points in contrast of louise, being less of a statu quo, Taiga displays a very obnoxious tsun that doesn't have any real meaning in her situation. In a way, louise's insane behaviour can "be understood" as she is really in love with Saito and would be crushed if he ever abandons her. That of course has the side effect of irrational and stupid jealousy and dubious "enjoyement" in punishing Saito. In the end, I certainly didn't want to see Taiga as silly as Louise, but I can't help but feel this way because of the whole "servant" thing. They are on equal level of "bad tsundere" in my books. Quote:
And honestly, instead of trying to get Minori's heart, he swore to stay at Taiga's side, despite she ordered him not to, and despite it would mean more abuse or whatnot. You can say some friendship can be "as strong as love", but the manga is so roundabout of their feelings that it leave too much room for romance between then. This is where my assumption stands: the manga "failed" to show me a true attempt of each other helping for their love conquest. I basically expect it to be a four sided romance. Whether I'm wrong or right about it due of the light novels spoilers or not, It is completely irrelevant. I only gave my opinion so far from the manga, and honestly, this is how it was possible to assuming "until now". Quote:
I honestly can imagine that people can be a bit bossy or "nasty" in their jokes, but I would certainly not consider "playful" in a "non human treatment". That is basically impossible. Sure both are laughing about these... not. I'm sorry, but I totally disagree with you here: I honestly cannot see how the belittlement is playful. it might be "funny" for the readers for the slapstick, but I really have issue of how it can be considered as laughing matter for actual characters. Quote:
Everyone has their granted right to be happy, but if it requiring the opposite for others or stalling others' happiness, that is certainly a big problem here. Again, the background does NOT justify that to me. Quote:
Actually, I'm not keen for perfect characters either, and people have their own tastes (even if I can't understand some people love/hate, they are obviously rightfully until it is mere fanboyism/bashing). I would certainly see a tsundere in Toradora, that's a fact. But I would largely prefer one in the "extent" of Shana for instance: unexperimented, a bit rash, but absolutely not bossy or whatnot. Sure, TD can get its share of unstoppable slapstick "thanks" to Taiga's fiery character, but I must say that I'm atrociously jaded by "random" or overboard bossy/violent side without much "break". Quote:
First, I compared ZNT and TD only because of sake of reference or "image". I used Louise in order to show how I looked Taiga, except it was only a exaggerated view (which was further explained above). I did NOT use ZNT as part of my reasoning for "enjoying" TD. Strictly speaking, only Taiga is giving me a lot of troubles to "look forwards" to the anime version of it. And my reasoning for this is: in anime adaptation, it "should" have a range of faithfulness (until you are going nutso like in Negima). Quote:
1) I have hard time to stand Taiga's behaviour because of the tsun 2) Ryuji's situation is hardly as "possible" due of the circumstances that "look forced to me". Now, for my "enjoyement" part, I would say that I would rather expect further development for Taiga, toning down her wild behaviour for quite a while, and "subtly" helping Ryuji times to times. I don't expect love or direct helping action. In a certain way, her "rash reaction" in classroom in order to make the misunderstanding vanish was nice. That part + the confession were actually the good parts I saw in Taiga, but the almighty page 24 of chapter 11 just gave me a very very sour aftertaste. At any rate, it will go in circle over and over, so there isn't much possibility to see a "compromise" in our discussion. I certainly don't feel it is a matter of facts or whatnot, but perspective and opinions, so there is no need to "persuade" any side anyway. of course, it was pretty much "entertaining" and interesting to see how a story can stirr drastic different views That said, I will obviously try to "continue" the manga and perhaps trying the anime with a blank slate in mind, though I cannot expect much "patience" if there is such statu quo going on for dozens of chapters...
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2008-08-31, 16:03 | Link #108 | ||||
I disagree with you all.
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I agree that Taiga is abusive and ungrateful. However, there are a few points in which I see differently from you:
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2008-08-31, 18:19 | Link #110 | ||
阿賀野型3番艦、矢矧 Lv180
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This is the reason why her tsun has some rash effect, as it wouldn't be exactly that pretty with someone not as goody-two-shoes as Ryuji. Quote:
If, let's say, Minori was completely unrelated to Taiga, chances Taiga "would help him due to circumstances" are basically null and void. You can say that Ryuji only gain here is that both girls are friends, but it is obviously not "thanks to Taiga". For the time being (until I got really blind), Taiga never helped directly or even indirectly by her own will for Ryuji's "mission", which is not encouraging. The sole factor is a indirect help as he can interact with Minori, through hanging around Taiga. Quite roundabout.
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2008-08-31, 18:25 | Link #111 |
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If Ryuiji and Taiga became a full-fledged couple after chapter 11, I think I would appreciate the series a lot more... one time around the block is enough, thank you.
Besides, I think story would have more potential if they actually took that step. Otherwise you get an endless stream of misunderstandings, new rivals, and love triangles - it's a formula that gets old fast. P.S. As for Ami, I don't see too many opportunities. Her strongest connections are to Kitamura. She may be "stunning" but let's face it; Taiga and Minori aren't exactly lacking in the looks department. It's going to be a tough sell... |
2008-09-01, 13:45 | Link #115 | |||||||||||||||||
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The relationship certainly transcends that of a normal label. They basically live together, do shopping together, and eat together on the same table. But they haven’t developed any form of romantic feeling for each other, because their minds are still set on their respective crush. As I mentioned before, it’s sort of special in itself; no matter how much Taiga seems to “neglect” Ryuji, he and she will still have that close underlying bond. Quote:
I was trying to be sarcastic… oh well All depends on whether Ryuji really wants to repel Taiga, or leave her completely alone for that matter—he really can’t due this to his character/personality. It crossed my mind more than once, what would have happened if Ryuji never decided to care of her, or what would have occurred if he didn’t vow to stay with her on “equal grounds”—this latter meaning to continue his involvement in her life? Would have Taiga survived on her own? (You would probably say that she doesn’t deserve to live) I think Taiga basically owes her life to Ryuji, even though she wouldn’t completely admit it in front of him. I doubt a normal person would have enjoyed a treatment similar to Taiga’s, but it’s Ryuji the one we are talking about. I think it’s somewhat balanced, the same way life is. He probably doesn’t enjoy those “little belittlements,” even though they might not be ill intended, but he certainly enjoys the small payoff of taking care of her, or believing that he is getting closer to Minorin, or that Taiga is not feeling alone by doing this. Quote:
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Anyhow, I’m not trying to convince you that Taiga has a “lame excuse” for not doing so, only that it’s not really out of character. What I’m about to say it’s probably absurd, but hopefully it can give a better understanding of this situation. Strictly speaking, people—especially kids—won’t say “thank you” as long as nobody teaches them to do so properly—and there’s little doubt that Taiga’s behavior can be easily compared to that of a brat. Now, given Taiga’s upbringing it should not be a surprise that she doesn’t know or is willing to “say thanks”—we are talking about the same person who wouldn’t yield to her parents. In the end, I consider this as one of those reasons why you cannot stomach Taiga’s personality/behavior—with especial regards to her tsun side. Taiga has a lot to thank Ryuji for, and she tried somehow, but in a very subtle and indirect way in my opinion. Quote:
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His decision is based in great part to the fact that he knows Taiga more than anybody else, even more than Minorin. As I said before, given Ryuji’s character and the events surrounding Taiga’s frustrating ordeal, he wanted to stand with the girl he felt needed his help the most—not necessarily with a romantic plan in mind. I sort of understand your point there; it doesn’t quite make sense to leave aside the girl you love and swear “on equal grounds” to a person with such a character “like hers.” I think, within the parameters of Ryuji’s personality/character, that the Minorin’s business could wait (it’s not like somebody was already advancing behind his back) in order to cheer up/help Taiga. An act of rashness, perhaps; but take into account that given Taiga’s frustration after the utterly failed attempt and her tendency to bear difficult things on her own (like trying to fix the misunderstandings for him), she wouldn’t have gotten out of the hole without his help—that’s probably what he thought in my humble opinion. Quote:
That blush on the last page of chapter 11 says everything. They are actually laughing—or she is actually laughing—just below the blush… While I use phrases like “playful belittlement” and “appreciative gesture,” you go as far as using “non human treatment,” “abuse,” “rag,” “disgusting” “sadism” and other words of equivalent/similar connotation. I wonder which one of us is telling the truth... there should be a middle ground somewhere. Quote:
and you should notice that he doesn’t take the belittlements with rancor. and don’t forget that they are not taking their “arguments” seriously, either. Quote:
Focusing in the detriment of other… it sounds like Taiga is trying to make the life of “others” miserable—especially Ryuji’s… I’m still sort of trying to understand the extent/context of your words… Is really “imposing” the worst thing that could have happened to Ryuji’s life, or the worst thing that Taiga could do? Quote:
With point 2 I still have my hopes. Quote:
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You are absolutely sure that Ryuji is not winning anything in his relationship with Taiga. I obviously disagree with that statement, but I can kinda see where it’s coming from. Now, the question would be, is Ryuji losing anything in his relationship with Taiga? At least he is not losing money since the food comes from Taiga’s wallet as well. However, Ryuji hasn’t shown any sign of regret, even though all the circumstances may have pointed otherwise. The reason being is that he hasn’t lost anything, nothing of importance. I would even go as far as saying that he is somewhat happy—regardless of Taiga’s selfish behavior—because helping somebody as useless and lonely as Taiga gives him satisfaction. The other point I was trying to argue was the supposedly romantic premise between Ryuji and Taiga, which I believe there are no strong hints for this to happen—as long as the original premise is not completely broken. But I agree with the possibility, at least. However, the other problem was your assumption that the readers should root for it—not necessarily implying that they should root for the original romantic aspirations instead. If I could summarize Toradora, I would say that the label of romantic comedy applies in its entirety, but it loosely follows the general trend—that is, concentrating on a romance occurring strictly speaking “within” the main couple—but this is not happening here as of now. Though there exists the possibility. In the end, the only thing I could see from your argument is your hate for Taiga’s character (which is a good thing, given that hate is a form of love ). I agree with you in the sense that this is the kind of argument with no possible end in sight, but I’m very obstinate myself. |
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2008-09-01, 14:31 | Link #116 | |||||||||||
阿賀野型3番艦、矢矧 Lv180
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Since the discussion should have ended, I will only comment few lines to give "polishing" details of my previous posts, as it seems you are actually encaging me into a very "hate" situation.
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There are rooms for development and improvements for her characters, but like I said before, I hardly condone her rash actions without much little reparation or control. The few actions she took are not enough to my judgement, it doesn't mean it is hopeless, though I don't expect a total "balance" anytime soon until she really realize her own position. Quote:
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And if it is only one sided, I fail to see how it would be acceptable. I wouldn't exactly see fitting to make someone crawling in the dirt and having fun at that sight, while the said person isn't exactly laughing at that matter either. I can understand that some rivals and friends can exchange nasty things, but one sidedly while you get the other person a bit clueless for this kind of reaction, that isn't exactly "fun" in its general sense. Quote:
And please remember that disgusting and sadism were used in a "if" scenario, where I said that if it was "only for her personal enjoyement", it would indeed be extremely difficult to sympathize with. Trampling people for enjoyement is sadism which doesn't work well even in slapstick comedy. (at least, it could be worse if there was ill motive behind these). That said, I don't think I ever said she deserve to die or whatnot. It seems you are mistaking my terms depicting her actions towards the very person/character taiga. Quote:
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2008-09-01, 16:09 | Link #117 | |||||
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I made such a comment in light of the impression I was getting from your post. I apologize if you found such comment ill intended. Quote:
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Anyway, you are quite forgetting the last thing I said in my first reply: “It was fun replying to you.” I’m always trying to keep my entertainment factor as I write; otherwise, I wouldn’t go as far as writing such lengthy opinions in the first place. It's only an opinion with some room for humor after all |
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2008-09-01, 16:35 | Link #118 | |||||
阿賀野型3番艦、矢矧 Lv180
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I did expect answers and reactions or simple silence, as I barely leave an opinion instead of a debate or whatnot. Should they answer or not, I would answer if needed or so. Only, with the current flow of the discussion, instead of discussing of the very topic, it keeps flowing on the same argument circle of "disagreement". As far I as I can read myself back, I didn't intend to direspect anything about those who like the manga and I insisted that "I" have problems with a character, nothing more. I certainly believe I didn't give demerit of the manga in a objective stance or so, and everything was solely based on a character appreciation, purely subjective based on my tastes. Hence, I don't think I ever tried to trample anyone's opinion here. That said, I still can't find any possible way to agree with your points and own perspective. that is the very reason why I felt it was meaningless to continue as it turned into a clash of opinions instead of a real discussion with arguments. As said already, it isn't exactly required to have a winning side or whatnot: anyone can enjoy or dislike what they want/do. Hence why I don't even see a reason for a compromise: we aren't defending politics and such, we are giving points of our own interpretations of facts and opinions on Taiga and Ryuji (and execution of the story), that's all. I certainly did not answer several times for sake of "victory", but to expose the points I had in mind. In agreement or not, it does not matter to me as it isn't the point for me to appose my opinion to others. Quote:
and I must say it is my duty as a moderator to stop off topic, which I'm dangerously doing myself right now. I don't think there isn't anything to blame or whatever, though the whole discussion is taking a very weird turn for mere divergence of opinions. Well, that is again my opinion.
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2008-09-01, 22:26 | Link #119 |
flargansbog
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At this point, I have to agree that Ryuuji's bond with Taiga feels pretty forced at this point. He crushes on Monori but feels compelled to continue his relationship with Taiga to the point where he's taking care of her every day to the point where you could assume they were intimate, when they're not. The signs point to both of them graddually developing feelings for each other down the road I suppose.
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2008-09-01, 23:07 | Link #120 |
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That settles everything down; though I wouldn’t mind continuing aimlessly. It will give the posters something to read before the next chapter (one month is a long wait)… oh just joking here…
Anyway, I want to honor your stance/opinion to discontinue this “game of disagreements”—it’s not going to bring anything new to the table, nor is going to be any different from our last posts. |
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