Magical Girl Lyrical Nanoha Character Creation and Discussion

[Tk3997]

Originally Posted by Keroko

True. Simply saying Mid is better at 'long range magic' is a bit bland.

Noted. And I may use this when I get to writing a more tactical fight with Tesla. Granted, since she is a Belkan knight (and an Ancient Belkan knight at that) she won't be using the exact same skills, but the basics of jamming shouldn't have been a stranger to Belka.

Spoiler for This turned out a fuck ton bigger then I expected:

The difference would likely be about like the difference between defensive electronic countermeasures and stand off systems. Defensive ECM is basiclly a short range paired down system used for self defense by strike aircraft incase threats penetrate the outer “bubble” of stand off jamming and SEAD efforts. It’s mostly tailored for dealing with direct threats to the craft and while it won’t jam large radar systems or ID and class a dozen different emission sources it will warn you that you’re being painted and attempt to jam the seekers and guidance systems of guided weapons directly threatening the aircraft. (Though to some extent this depends on the system some are more powerful then others).

Still DECM is meant to protect a single unit from direct threats while Stand off ECM is intended to shut down networks and prevent acquisition and engagement to begin with. Most combat mages ought in theory to have some training in DECM it might be more or less depending on there role though as shooters would have more use for it then close combat types IMO (you can’t spoof or decoy a sword being swung at your face). In practice though it would appear most mages have little training in or indeed even concept of such things with even trained combat instructors advocating a completely hard kill based defensive doctrine.

Given that we damn well know magic CAN do ECM IMO this is outrageously short sighted, but then again EW is known to be important in the real world too and yet it’s still often neglected in favor of “sexier” projects. Again at least in my fic the TSAB is implied over the years of peace gone more then a little soft forgetting or stopping the practice of many of the doctrines and tactics that made it dominant to start with; basiclly the style as a whole had something of a case of victory disease. Having virtually wiped out its old rival and with no serious competitors in sight it began to become overly ritualized and traditional based more on doing things because that’s just how they were done then because they worked.

Much the same as many modern “martial” arts are little more then workout routines based on what where originally actual fighting styles. Mid never quite got THAT bad as it had to work in combat at least somewhat, but all the same lacking real threats or motivation it still lost its edge. It’s telling IMO that two of the strongest practitioners of the style today weren’t acutally officially trained in it according to normal TSAB rules.

At least as I envision it Mid originally won by playing like the West against the Russian’s. Belkan or something like it probably came first given that swords and such were the first real weapons of war used by humans a style based on enhancing them likely originated and became dominant first. The style would have favored brute power and strength since it involved closing with and fighting the enemy at close quarters with little room for fineness or trickery. Eventually though tactics and ideas would evolve and people would start to think about other methods of fighting. At first ranged combat was probably crude and mostly meant to support the frontline fighters if acutally caught in the open these users would be quickly destroyed much like archers.

Cultural norms and momentum and such also probably meant that such close combat continued to be preferred. Much as Europeans used heavy cavalry in the form of knights and such even when confronted by and repeatedly trounced by the more mobile horse archers of the Mongols or only the English ever bothered to produce bowmen of any actual quality. However it ended up coming about initially one group at least though started to think differently and began to favor ranged combat more then close. It also began to develop tactics and strategies based around defeating it when it began to become clear these acutally worked they’d be copied by more and more people.

Those tactics at least the way I see it much like the Mongols focused on mobility and hitting power over brute force. A mid user still couldn’t fight a Belkan head on, but he evolved tactics and spells that let him avoid such occurrences to begin with. The Belkan even when flying likely fought allot like Russian’s they wanted to close and dogfight there style was built around that and in pursing it they forfeited the ability to do much else.

Mid meanwhile focused on speed, range, and electronic warfare they exploited superior intelligence to use there superior mobility and striking range to wear down and outmaneuver there foes. Direct battle was often avoided and if the situation was bad they’d simply withdraw and the Belkans being oriented for short range fighting as they where could often do little but watch them do so. Battles began to shifted from huge close range brawls to sprawling skirmishes as Mid users exploited there superior intelligence, and communications to allow them to break free of things like static lines chained closely to an army commander to a more fluid and dispersed type of maneuver warfare.

Belkan with its heavy emphasis on power and close range spells simply could not match Mid in the areas of communications, scanning, and range that were key in this type of war and was increasingly marginalized in any application besides dueling. Until finally those that clung to the style were defeated and the more pragmatic basiclly switched to the superior Mid type effectively spelling the death-knell for Belkan style magic.

The problem was that once this occurred Mid itself began to degrade large scale battles became much rarer overtime and technology began to replace it in some areas. Overtime just as Belka before it had pigeonholed itself into the trap of focusing to heavily on one thing Mid began to focus more and more exclusively on massive ranged firepower forgetting that while that had been one aspect of it’s raise to power it had hardly been the sole one. For awhile various other tech based weapons and systems covered most of its weaker points, but when those where banned the faults of the style as then practiced started to became more obvious.

It was the shake ups starting with the incidents with drones, cyborgs, and the “rediscovery” of Belkan style magic that finally began to spur developments and serious new thoughts in the style and about magic in general. For the first time in decades really there where threats that acutally demanded adoption and change to counter. If the TSAB intended to keep its entire “no conventional weapons” policy it was clearly going to need to start thinking more creatively in how it trained its troops and used magic in combat.

Seriously this why you shouldn't get me started on this shit I'm liable to start out with a simple comment then ramble out a thousand words in 20 minutes. I didn’t start out intending to write beyond like the first paragraph and… well the result speaks for itself. It dosen't help that I'm very tired I ramble more when I'm tired and not nearly that well either so sorry if none of that made sense and it's full of typos.

[Wild Goose]

at above

This is a bit too late in the day for me to be taking in tactics, but it does make sense as a whole.

Also, there's been something I've been thinking. If the TSAB is crap - alright, scratch that, we know they suck ass in tactics and strategy - but are still the dominant power, it would tend to suggest that the bulk of the magical world - where the TSAB is in control of - is worse off than them, since the TSAB is the top dog of the Nanoverse.

...either that or they got more guns than anyone else.

Actually as TK posits above it makes a crapload of sense. There probably ain't anyone who can outgun the TSAB in a straight up firepower battle, which is why Jail went the way he took; like how no nation on Earth can beat the US military in a conventional war, but 11 guys in planes caused 9/11.

Again, my offer to do grammatical touch-up remains open. Think of it as a punctuation/grammar makeover And yes, like Rose, I'm good with them.

[Comartemis]

Well fuck... this why you shouldn't get me started on this shit I'm liable to start out with a simple comment then ramble out a thousand words in 20 minutes.

Ah, but given the quality of your ramblings, we should do this more often, TK. There is yet more I can use here in my own work, though the fall of Belka has little do to with the fall of its' core magic system.

On a related note... my work on Rico and the backstory of the Belkan Empire has brought me, somewhat unexpectedly, to the creation of the Spiraleritter; the Helix Knights. Take a wild guess where they come from.

With Kamina, Kittan, and the rest of the Dai-Gurren Brigade being ported into Belkan history (and Rico being the last of their number), I'm wondering if there's a way to implement Spiral Energy without making it completely h4xx. My initial thought is that SE is what permits limit breaks like Vita's Zerstörungform (and how convenient that said limit break involves a drill....), a subtype of magical energy possessed by all living creatures but one that is excessively difficult to harness even under ideal conditions. Thoughts?

[Tk3997]

Originally Posted by Wild Goose

@TK: Am reading your 3000 word essay right now, and I'm finding it interesting reading but God the lack of punctuation and stuff argh....

Aren't you in china and isn't it like 1AM there? I'm not saying some of it isn't me, but if the above is true some of it could be you as well cause while I won't claim it's newspaper quality or something a quick glance has it looking reasonably well punctuated to me.

...Tell ya what, how about I take it and clean it up a bit, make it easier to read? <.< Comma here, comma there, adjust spelling abit...

I didn't proof read it that throughly and like I said it's basiclly a published draft. Commas have always been a sticky thing with me IMO there's a fine line between comma use and comma abuse. I admit I often come out short of them. Probably becasue the "rules" for the things have so many fucking exceptions that even calling them rules is basically bullshit IMO.

Also, nice profile on Rose *nodnod* And more delicious ideas *nodnod* But darn I'm not sure I could have an EW mage in the OFM... it'd attact too much attention.

Yeah the only problem with most jamming is that it's like covering the sounds of foot steps by yelling with a bullhorn. If the other guy expects your coming and you don't care it's great if you're trying to be covert it's much tricker to use. That said it's hardly impossible IMO although how it would be used on a covert mission would indeed be rather different then it's role in open aerial battle. (wide area barrage jamming probably out for instance.)

Also: Rose is cute. And well-endowned.

Rose? Where are you getting that from? Well I posted a char name Rose like a month ago, but she's borderline Loli... Assuming you mean Rebbecca I acutally originally wanted her to have pink hair (I don't really know why honestly), but then I saw that pic and was like "fuck it that's her she has brown hair now." I personally think she's pretty average though in the pic she's kind of puffing her chest out which is making her look bigger IMO; although she's obviously not flat by any stretch.

Originally Posted by Comartemis

Ah, but given the quality of your ramblings, we should do this more often, TK. There is yet more I can use here in my own work, though the fall of Belka has little do to with the fall of its' core magic system.

On a related note... my work on Rico and the backstory of the Belkan Empire has brought me, somewhat unexpectedly, to the creation of the Spiraleritter; the Helix Knights. Take a wild guess where they come from.

With Kamina, Kittan, and the rest of the Dai-Gurren Brigade being ported into Belkan history (and Rico being the last of their number), I'm wondering if there's a way to implement Spiral Energy without making it completely h4xx. My initial thought is that SE is what permits limit breaks like Vita's Zerstörungform (and how convenient that said limit break involves a drill....), a subtype of magical energy possessed by all living creatures but one that is excessively difficult to harness even under ideal conditions. Thoughts?

*TK rubs his temples wearily*

Not the TTGL shit again… fuck it I’m too tired to get into it now, but suffice to say allot of this shit has been attempted to be ported before and frankly I never really liked any of it as it just dosen't fit for shit IMO.

[Wild Goose]

Originally Posted by Comartemis

Ah, but given the quality of your ramblings, we should do this more often, TK. There is yet more I can use here in my own work, though the fall of Belka has little do to with the fall of its' core magic system.

On a related note... my work on Rico and the backstory of the Belkan Empire has brought me, somewhat unexpectedly, to the creation of the Spiraleritter; the Helix Knights. Take a wild guess where they come from.

With Kamina, Kittan, and the rest of the Dai-Gurren Brigade being ported into Belkan history (and Rico being the last of their number), I'm wondering if there's a way to implement Spiral Energy without making it completely h4xx. My initial thought is that SE is what permits limit breaks like Vita's Zerstörungform (and how convenient that said limit break involves a drill....), a subtype of magical energy possessed by all living creatures but one that is excessively difficult to harness even under ideal conditions. Thoughts?

....no. Just FUCKING NO.

*Enters AbareKiller Mode*

*Goose henshins into AbareKillerGoose*

Alright, first off. Giga Drill Breaker is already taken and in use. As I've stated, it's Franz's Ougi, his Limit Break, his most powerful spell, which has actually been written. The fact that he doesn't use it so much is a recognition of the fact that while it's an awesome Limit Break it's not really that practical.

Spiral Energy is, quite frankly, haxxed. And frankly, Franz should be pwning everyone - he's very much in the Gurren Lagann mold - but note that the Stoic Glen always pwns him. Ditto Stoic Chief.

Also, I'm pretty sure that Spiral Energy is otherwise known as the Linker Core. Frankly what's the point in Spiral Energy? There's the Linker Core. It works. At some point you have to stop inserting things for the sake of coolness and take a long hard look at things and see if they fit. Which is why there isn't any scenes of Ivanovich with a SPARTAN laser. Yet. So far. (Fuck, why does he need a SPARTAN laser when he has Harvest?)

And at this time of the night, I have no particular interest in trying to make it work. Talk to Keroko or someone else. I can tell you this straight up: don't expect dehaxxing work on Spiral Energy, because it doesn't fit into the Nanoverse.

...dear god I sound like ark. Oh well, we're both Chinese. Meh.

Originally Posted by Tk3997

Aren't you in china and isn't it like 1AM there? I'm not saying some of it isn't me, but if the above is true some of it could be you as well cause while I won't claim it's newspaper quality or something a quick glance has it looking reasonably well punctuated to me.

It's 1 now, but I ain't in China - Kuala Lumpur. It's quite possibly the time, but I've been really tired lately. I'll sleep and reread this tomorrow. Probably it's both of us.

I didn't proof read it that throughly and like I said it's basiclly a published draft. Commas have always been a sticky thing with me IMO there's a fine line between comma use and comma abuse. I admit I often come out short of them. Probably becasue the "rules" for the things have so many fucking exceptions that even calling them rules is basically bullshit IMO.

To be honest when using commas I tend to go with feel What I was thinking more is just some minor touchups: comma here, comma there, inserting a couple of words you missed, some missing letters, just trying to make it flow better (and to keep the feel of a TSAB officer writing a paper).

For some strange lulz reason I have an image of Cipher writing that essay.

Yeah the only problem with most jamming is that it's like covering the sounds of foot steps by yelling with a bullhorn. If the other guy expects your coming and you don't care it's great if you're trying to be covert it's much tricker to use. That said it's hardly impossible IMO although how it would be used on a covert mission would indeed be rather different then it's role in open aerial battle. (wide area barrage jamming probably out for instance.)

Pretty much. I think jamming is certainly out but passive EW and scanning may show up; I'll discuss it with Kagerou. To be honest though I was more thinking that since your 3k word essay implies that the EW community is fairly small, thus anybody who goes to a small nameless low-reputation unit like Contractor Group O would lead to a few raised eyebrows on the level of "What the FUCK are you doing in a crappy outfit like that?" and might lead to snooping as to WTF is Contractor Group O, WTF is a crap outfit like it doing snapping up EW mages (well, maybe 1. Or 2), leading to a possible blown cover.

Ivanovich: "Who needs EW mages! We've got our own two eyes!"

Something I just thought about is that in their own way the OFM may be quite traditional and stubborn; many of their senior leadership had their baptisms of fire during the Erusian War... Ivanovich for instance went with unguided magical projectiles when he was putting together the concept for the OFM's mage sniper storage device rather than any guidance packages simply because that was how he shot as a sniper, using unguided rounds.

Rose? Where are you getting that from? Well I posted a char name Rose like a month ago, but she's borderline Loli... Assuming you mean Rebbecca I acutally originally wanted her to have pink hair (I don't really know why honestly), but then I saw that pic and was like "fuck it that's her she has brown hair now." I personally think she's pretty average though in the pic she's kind of puffing her chest out which is making her look bigger IMO; although she's obviously not flat by any stretch.

Argh I meant Rebecca. -_- And brown hair can be cute And in a book I read, "How to Draw Manga", it stated that when drawing boobs, boobs tend to appear bigger when they're hanging down, so Rebecca's got 2 things going for her: gravity pulling them down and her puffing her chest out.... and I'll shut up now.

*me RUNS(

*TK rubs his temples wearily*

Not the TTGL shit again… fuck it I’m too tired to get into it now, but suffice to say allot of this shit has been attempted to be ported before and frankly I never really liked any of it as it just dosen't fit for shit IMO.

To be fair, I think the idea of Spiral Energy in the Nanoverse has some merit. Then again, so did the idea of antitank suicide attack dogs used by the Soviets, and we all know how that turned out (the dogs blew up Soviet tanks, not german tanks, because that's what they were trained against).

[Comartemis]

Fine, fine. Jesus, don't bite my freaking head off, Goose, it was just an idea.

Well it's a bit late to be abandoning this little sub-project now, so I'll post what I've got so far.

Spoiler for The Helix Knights:

Description and History:
Throughout the history of the Belkan Empire there have been many knights who have distinguished themselves as bold and fearsome combatants. Sometimes these are single warriors, generals such as Ysanne "Iceheart" Isard, or small groups such as the infamous Wolkenritter. But out of all such knights in the Empire's history, none have ever held such power or fame as the legendary Spiraleritter: the Helix Knights.

The Helix Knights have been a part of the Belkan Empire since before recorded history, with records of their activities dating back as far as the rise of Vivian, the first and only Sankt Kaiser. While surviving records of those dark times are extraordinarily rare, those that have been found make frequent mention of the Helix Knights, specifically their actions during the Second Age of Conflict and the aftermath of Vivian's death.

Throughout recorded history, the Helix Knights have served as an elite unit within the Belkan Military, free from the restrictions placed on other units and able to move about as they please on both a tactical and a strategic level of battle, seeking engagements and battles which require their support and smashing through the defenses of their enemies. For centuries, one of the most welcome sights a Belkan soldier could see on the battlefield was the unexpected arrival of a cadre of Helix Knights.

The most famous battles of the Knights are, without doubt, their ongoing conflicts with the entity known as Kane, a seemingly immortal enemy of the Belkan Empire who has challenged the Empire time and again throughout its' history, been defeated by the Empire and its' allies, and risen again several centuries later to repeat the process in a cycle that seemed to know no end until the Tenth Age of Tranquility.

But however strong the Knights were, in the end they were merely human (though all would decry the usage of the word "merely" to describe humans). When Kane's machinations led to the creation and awakening of the Book of Darkness, the ensuing cataclysmic explosion and destruction of the continent of Elysion eliminated nearly two thirds of the Helix Knights' numbers. Most of the remaining knights gave their lives in defense of Belka in the ensuing interdimensional war, and by the end of the war, only one Helix Knight remained; Kittan Bachinka, a young squire and would-be knight errant, who vanished into the pages of history around MC 005.

Much more recently, however, Kittan has resurfaced on his homeworld of Belka in the company of the noble families of Isard and Clearwater. Now in the twilight years of his life, Kittan is reported to be raising an adopted son, a young man named Rico. If these rumors are true, it is possible, however unlikely, that the multiverse has not seen the end of the Helix Knights...

Organization and Leadership:
The Helix Knights have never been a particularly organized group, preferring to go with the flow and adjust to circumstances as they present themselves. While the group does have several identifiable leaders at any given time, these positions have been earned by the respect of their subordinates, not granted by a higher power such as the Kaisers.

The Knights answer to none but their leader, who in turn answers only to the current Kaiser. While many Kaisers throughout history have attempted to disband the knights for one reason or another, the effectiveness of the Helix Knights has always stayed their hands in the end; lost battles which were won by the presence of the Helix Knights are numerous beyond count, and until late in the Empire's reign the Knights were as popular among the people of Belka as the Saint Church.

In many regards, the Helix Knights can be seen as the earliest contract mages save for the fact that they worked exclusively for the Belkan Military and were technically a part of it. In this regard, however, the military has very little, if any, control over the actions and movements of the knights. Even the Kaisers have had significant difficulty reigning the knights in without the aid of the group's leader, known within the Knights as the Helix King.

Faith:
As unconventional as the Knight's organization is, their faith is even more radical. Where the Belkan military can generally be said to worship the Sankt Kaiser Vivian as a divine figure, the Helix Knights follow the faith of their founder, a legendary figure known as Kamina.

Presented as a figure of near-mythic power and said to be a warrior equal to any ten Kaisers, Kamina's origins (and those of the knights he founded) are as shrouded in mystery as those of Vivian herself. Some records claim him to be some sort of divine entity, a warrior god descended from a higher plane of existence, similar to some theories of Vivian's own origins. Other, somewhat more sensible theories claim that he is somehow related to Vivian, and that the blood of the Kaisers flows in the veins of he and his many offspring. Still others claim him to be of elven or demonic descent, and the most audacious go so far as to call him Vivian's sire. Whatever Kamina's origins may be, the Spiraleritter worship him as a being equal to the Sankt Kaiser, and as a result, many in the Belkan public have labeled them a cult, albeit a very popular one.

Although Kamina never put down any particular commandments or message for his followers, his spirit permeates the group right down to its' very foundations. Helix Knights strive to follow Kamina's example in everything they do, and three tenets have been laid down by the Helix Kings who followed in Kamina’s footsteps to serve as guidelines for the Knights:

1) A battle is not lost until defeat is admitted. Do not surrender under any circumstances.
2) Have faith in your abilities and trust in yourself.
3) Limitations were made to be overcome.

Weaponry and Tactics:
Like most Belkan knights, the Helix Knights place a heavy emphasis on melee combat and brute force, and they are regarded by their fellow knights as warriors without peer.

The Knights are most commonly known in the field of device-crafting for introducing drill-based weaponry into the Belkan arsenal. Drills empowered by personal enhancement spells become capable of breaking through defenses that similar weapons (such as spears and lances) would be unable to penetrate, and not long after the knights began using them in the Forth Age of Conflict, drill-based devices became a common sight in the Belkan military, almost as much as more traditional weapons such as swords and warhammers.

It is worth noting that the Knights have not always used drills as their primary weapons. Kamina himself is often depicted wielding a nodachi, and the earliest knights were most noted for being pilots of colossal steam-powered warmechs called Ganmen, which have long since been rendered completely obsolete by more modern weapons and tactics (indeed, a single Ganmen pitted against a Belkan knight with a modern device would be reduced to scrap metal in seconds).

While the knights are often portrayed as immortal lords of the battlefield, the truth is that (with several exceptions) they are just like any other knight, save for differences in leadership and faith. While the knights are exceptionally skilled warriors, what makes them so valuable on the battlefield is their ability to inspire greatness in the hearts of those around them; for example, the Sixth Helix King, Simon Garlock, was best known for his actions at the Battle of Ankurous Four, where one of his speeches inspired a force of knights to such a degree that they proceeded to lay waste to an enemy force many times their size, turning a vain effort at a fighting retreat into a complete rout of enemy forces. (Though Simon, as a SS-rank knight, aided considerably with that accomplishment). This is not to say that every last Helix Knight has the power to single-handedly turn a battle on its' head as Simon did, but the presence of a Helix Knight--or even better, a group of them--is often enough to give a force of knights a significant morale boost.

[Keroko]

Originally Posted by Wild Goose

at above

This is a bit too late in the day for me to be taking in tactics, but it does make sense as a whole.

Also, there's been something I've been thinking. If the TSAB is crap - alright, scratch that, we know they suck ass in tactics and strategy - but are still the dominant power, it would tend to suggest that the bulk of the magical world - where the TSAB is in control of - is worse off than them, since the TSAB is the top dog of the Nanoverse.

I still stand by my opinion that the TSAB is millitairy capable, its just that Seven Arcs wasn't. To the casual viewer there is nothing wrong with the tactics the TSAB used. heck, even I thought it was all okay (with the exeption of the 'no devices inside the building' rule) untill the millitairy maniacs started pointing out the flaws.

Originally Posted by Tk3997

Belkan or something like it probably came first given that swords and such were the first real weapons of war used by humans a style based on enhancing them likely originated and became dominant first.

Actually, Belkan has been stated to be a split-off of the Mid style, so Mid was first.

Imagine that. In an era where conventional weaponry was common usage, there actually were people that created a melee-centered magic style. and judging by how well known Belka is, and all the hubhub behind it, it was a pretty damn succesfull style too, lasting several centuries at the very least and even growing their own Empire. :3

This also means that Belka was initially pretty capable of kicking Mid's ass. And indeed, when looking at A's, the Belkan style is very capable of doing so. Ranged combat is only a relative thing when you have a style centered around physical enhancement. After all, speed is one of those enhancements. I imagine Belkan mages using the 'get close fast, slaughter the ranged expert when up close' aproach. Like how the best way to beat mages in an MMO is to get close. Once you get close, mages are generally toast unless they can get away.

[Wild Goose]

Henshins into AbareKillerGoose:

Comar: Keep going and leave out all Spiral Energy references. It has promise.

As for biting your head off, you misunderstand. I don't want to bite it off. There's less fun to be had that way.

*cackles madly, and smirks the way AbareKiller smirks*

Keroko: I actually wilfully ignored all the flaws at first. Then I came to Nanoha OC and had to sigh and take note.

On Belkans and speed, if they're moving so fast they can take Mid mages off-guard, then normal people don't really have much of a chance. It's like, they're moving faster than you can realise or react to.

Also I just realised something: even if the mages or knights are still subsonic, or high subsonic, they could theoretically still dodge bullets. How?

Flashmove Sidestep. Or ducking behind cover - people have dodged enemy fire before - though admittedly more through luck...

[Comartemis]

Comar: Keep going and leave out all Spiral Energy references. It has promise.

Actually, that was just about all the information I'd thought to include. Am I missing something important?

[FlameSparkZ]

Originally Posted by Keroko

Maybe I should poke around in some of the other forums for an OC-thread.

Originally Posted by Keroko

By the way, how heavy a sleeper is Koji? I kinda need this for Uomo's introduction scenario (I'm planning for the two to have been roomies in the academy, Koji's acceptance of everyone makes him the perfect candidate for rooming with a trap).

Hmmm...let's see...it takes him a while to fall asleep when he goes to bed, and when he does go to sleep, he's partially conscious of his surroundings (fighter's instinct?)
But, if he's exhausted from a day of training, he'll just sleep like a log until the next day

Also, as portrayed in a previous chapter, he has trouble sleeping with someone in the same room...until he gets used to that person.

[Jimmy C]

Originally Posted by keroko

Actually, Belkan has been stated to be a split-off of the Mid style, so Mid was first.

No it's not. The point keeps getting raised and forgotten. Mid and Belka styles were competitors, with each being used by nearly half of all mages once. Not that Belka was a Mid-derivative. That was a mistranslation.

Once you get close, mages are generally toast unless they can get away.

The problem is getting close while tanking all the damage the ranged fighter is throwing at you without being able to hit back until you're within arms' reach of him. Even worse, while you're closing, he can choose to continue shooting or move back to keep the range open. And in the air, keeping out of the melee fighter's reach is even easier. There may be no cover in the skies, but there are no obstacles either.
Heck, in A's ep5, the Bureau's deployment was less than optimal. The best way to neutralize the Wolkies is to gang up on them. There's no way any of them can cope with two ranged fighters pouring the hurt on them while evading their attempts to close for the kill. Nanoha and Yuuno on Vita, Fate and Arf on Signum, half the extra mages to keep Zafira at bay, the other half to help Chrono find the remaining knight, Shamal.

[Melodius Trueheart]

Originally Posted by Jimmy C

The problem is getting close while tanking all the damage the ranged fighter is throwing at you without being able to hit back until you're within arms' reach of him.

And the problem with that is that there's no guarantee that the ranged fighter can actually hit the melee fighter, especially if the ranged fighter doesn't have any "quick-strike" spells. While a slower melee mage might have to tank hits, a faster one lops off the mages head before he/she can get off a spell.

And Yunno doesn't, as far as I know, have offense. At best he would be a distraction.

I've been sort of talking about something called the "Lords", I think they need an explanation.

Spoiler for The Lords:

The Lords, known at various times as Heilige Herren, Herrenritter, and simply, the Herren were named for the victorious group who led the Anti-Vivians (The Anti-Vivians, though not actually against Vivian; they simply did not like the exclusive focus on her) to victory over the Vivans (who later became the Saint Church). They were a group of 7 elite mages of varied skills, who later acquired leadership positions within the Remnant Imperium Belkarum, with the leader of them becoming the Pontifex of the Remnant.

They are selected through a 64 person tournament, the members of which are selected by high ranking members of Remnant Belkan society. When a Lord dies, the tournament is held to determine his replacement. When a Pontifex dies, then the tournament includes the sitting Lords, though they are not removed from their positions, even if they are not among the winners.

Their tactics vary. In some iterations, they fight slowly, wearing down their opponents with brute power. In other instances, like the current group, they emphasize speed and flexibility, as well as highly unconventional and risky tactics, such as night raids, ambushes, and detachment attacks. As they go the Remnant Army as a whole tends to go.

The Lords, even though they are in the government, they are encouraged to be on the front lines of battle and risk their lives the same as any soldier. They are also expected to display intense devotion to self-improvement, study and personal honor. They are highly public figures, often adored in the streets, and they are expected to set a good example for the rest of society.

Lords hold their positions for life, though they are encouraged to resign due to old age. Rarely do Lords exceed 60 years of age.

Speaking of Lords, here is the second Bishop of The Remnant Empire of Belka, Alejandro De Sevilla

Spoiler for Alejandro De Sevilla:

Biographical Detail:

Name: Alejandro De Sevilla
Age: 22 (MC 75)
Date of Birth: MC 53
Home World: Terra/Earth, United States of America, Los Angeles
Blood Type: A
Height: 73” in
Weight: 164 lbs
Affiliation: Holy Remnant of Belka
Title: Lord, 2nd Bishop, Prime Minister of Belka

Appearance Detail:
Hair: Green
Eyes: Green
Body Type: Lean

Alejandro De Sevilla usually wears either the Remnant Belka admiral’s uniform (a navy blue two-piece suit, the Grand Bishop’s vestments (which are pure white robes with the Belkan cross on the breast and the back) or a simple white shirt with blue jeans. In combat form, Alejandro wears a long white coat with a green ornate tunic and black jeans.

Device: Vorherrschaft (Ascendancy): A set of two longswords, with ornate hilts and jade gems inset in them. Sealed they form a necklace of two crossed swords.

Magical Detail:
Simple Magic Rank: S+
Detailed Magic Rank:

Melee Combat: 89
Ranged Combat: 71
Support: 84
Speed: 79

Physical Defense: 94
Magical Defense: 86
Barriers: 88
Evasion: 84

Personality Detail
Personality Type: Cool

Intelligence: Great
Leadership: Excellent
Combat Skill: Excellent
Empathy: Excellent
Work Ethic: Great
Determination: Excellent
Ruthlessness: Poor


Spells:

Geistschwert (Spirit Sword): A basic magically enhanced sword attack.

Heiliges Schwert (Holy Sword): A stronger version of Geistschwert

Geistwelle: (Spirit Wave): A short/medium-ranged attack; magic is gathered through one of the swords and discharged through the second.

Panzerfestung (Tank Fortress): A defensive spell that creates a strong magical field around the user.

Ketten des Lichts (Chains of Light) White chains are formed to bind the opponent.

Engelhaft Entsieget Modus (Angelic Unseal Mode) Full Drive. In this form, Alejandro sheds his coat, and sprouts large wings of magical energy from his back. His eyes and
hair turn white, and his swords become longer.

Ketten von Gott (Chains of God) – A stronger version of Ketten des Lichts

Gotter Befehlen (Godly Command) – A white light emanates from the user, damaging all mages within a 10m radius.

Transzendente Vernichtung (Transcendent Extermination) – The user’s body is enveloped by energy, and the user proceeds to charge the target, expending all of his/her energy in the process.





Biography:

Alejandro De Sevilla was born on Terra, in a poor part of the Earth city of Los Angeles. The area is relatively violent, and his father died in an attempted robbery at the young age of eight, leaving him, his mother, and 5 siblings. This took a terrible toll on his family, as his mother had to descend into vice, while his siblings had to participate in other illegal activity to make ends meet. Even so, he was the favored child of the family, and was encouraged to go to school and develop his mind. He was encouraged to read, participate in church, and study, and he took to this very quickly.
At this time, he did not show any magical talent, at least not to the point that he was noticed by the TSAB or any other magical authorities. However, one day, at age 11 he discovered a Storage Device, apparently left behind by a Remnant reconnaissance team. He was able to use the device, which alerted them to his presence. After a discussion with his family, he is taken in by the kingdom, while Alejandro’s family is well-provided for.
Alejandro proved to be a great talent, not only possessing a great deal of magical power, but easily picking up such things as military strategy, magical theory, while supplementing his growing knowledge with the philosophies of his home planet. At the age of 15, he achieved the rank of Grand Admiral of the Belkan Navy, the youngest mage to reach that level (somewhat controversially due to the fact that older and presumably more qualified candidates were passed over). A short time later, he faced the rogue army of Yeshu Malkanies at Morz, and though Malkanies fought valiantly, De Sevilla’s superior numbers won the day. This resulted in both the addition of Malkanies to their army, and an enduring friendship that has lasted to this day.
At the age of 18 De Sevilla became a Lord, coming in third place in the Tournament of Lords, losing narrowly to Malkanies.
De Sevilla is described as a “person of great humaneness”, known both for his intellect and his compassion. He is always cool and collected, whether in battle or in everyday life, and provides a great counterpart to the hot-blooded Malkanies. His one weakness is that he is not ruthless enough (he had several chances to defeat Malkanies in the Tournament of Lords, but did not take advantage) and this may be a disadvantage in close battles.

Finally, a short note about the magic system they use

Spoiler for Remnant Belkan Magic:

While they eschew "Neo-Belka", seeing it as a degraded and corrupt variant, their style of magic is not Ancient Belka, though it shares the same basic principles of melee emphasis.

The biggest difference is a greater emphasis on speed and manuverability, enabling quick lightning attacks. This was developed in an attempt to negate the inherent advantage of Midchildan magic because of its emphasis on ranged combat. Furthermore, there is somewhat more support-type spells than in Ancient Belka, and there has been a move away from pure specialization. Even so, ranged combat is still quite rare, and those are mostly specialists ala Yagami Hayate (though not as powerful obviously!)

[Tempy]

Ahh I knew it was good to wait until the weekend. Much more active.

Alrighty folks. This here is the revised character.

Spoiler for Noland ver. Beta:

An abhorred relic from the distant past. A soul lost to madness. A traitor to king, country, and family.

The Knight of Calamity



Name: Noland Reiniger
Age: Physically, 30s
DOB: Unknown
Height: 6' 2” (7’ Lunatic Mode)
Weight: 210 lbs (270 lbs Lunatic Mode)
Eyes: Red (Blind)
Hair: Black
Blood type: O negative

Affiliation: Unknown, possibly Belkan
Position: Unknown
Rank: Unknown
Air Combat Rank: Unknown
Ground Combat Rank: Unknown
Composite Rank: Cannot be determined. Temporary rank set at S+
Magic System: Ancient Belka (presumed)
Magic Color: Crimson
Specialty: Army Decimation
Position: Deep Strike Assaulter
Style: Berserker

Device: Cocytus

Also called "the Eyes of Lunacy," there is little to no technical information on the device. It is believed that Cocytus is an early form of Unison Device, permanently fused with its owner. The device currently exists as two red orbs that have taken the place of Noland's original eyes, permanently blinding him unless the device is active. The device AI is incredibly strong, capable of suppressing Noland's persona and taking over his body if his willpower is not strong enough. True to Belkan-style magic, the device focuses on enhancing close combat efficiency. The gift of insanity Cocytus bestows in turn increases Noland's physical attributes to incredible levels. Unlike other devices, the degree of enhancement is reliant on the synchronization between device and user -- the higher the synchronization, the greater the power, but also the higher the cost. It is unknown what exactly affects synchronization values, but Noland's emotional state has a definite influence. Cocytus also affects those in close proximity to Noland, causing people to slowly lose their grips on reality.

Cocytus may very well be considered a Lost Logia class device, considering its power and age.


Personality:

Noland's original personality has been lost to madness, trauma, and age. What is left behind is a disassociative identity that manifests as two distinct personas: the Knight and the Lunatic.

The Knight is most reflective of Noland's original personality and is the dominant identity. He is a calm, collected person that speaks in cool and controlled tones. Polite and careful with his speech, his thoughtfully prepared responses reflect an intelligence and cultured background inherent of a Knight. Still, the scars of battle and time have made his tone dark and grim at times, though he remains a realist in all situations. He is quiet when his family is brought up, and his tone becomes bitter when Belka is the topic. Despite it all, Noland possesses an interestingly dry, ironic wit and a dark sense of humor.

Noland's disposition and mood can shift dramatically depending on the topic at hand. Most definitive of this is when Cocytus is brought up, leaving him easily agitated and almost violent. He cools down quickly, however.

He often speaks of "raison d'etre."

In contrast, the Lunatic personality takes over whenever the device Cocytus is activated, characterized by the subtle glow his "eyes" take on. In this state, Noland is boastful, arrogant, and very proud. He sees himself as superior to all those around him and will not tolerate any form of disrespect he perceives as directed towards him. The Lunatic persona degenerates as device synchronization increases, coherent speech gradually turning into guttural roars.

History:

Before Noland became the Knight of Calamity, he was a Knight of Belka in close servitude to the Sankt Kaiser. He wielded the sword device called "Mondschien," and practiced a martial style called "Sonate." Highly skilled and ever vigilant, Noland was an elite. These are the only solid facts about his position and purpose in regards to the kingdom. Historical inaccuracies and misrepresented articles distort his personal history heavily, making analysis and study difficult. Some accounts have him as a "Primarch" of sorts, whereas others mention his position as a "Custodes" or even "Cleric-Knight." The most bizarre recollection of Noland labels him as a cicisbeo or lover of the Sankt Kaiser -- this was justly denied and labeled as fiction. Regardless of background, all sources have him at very least close to the Sankt King.

These same distortions plague the interpretation of the Fall of Belka. The most commonly accepted story is that Noland Reiniger, as the Knight of Calamity, betrayed king and country by rampaging through the imperial palace and slaying all that dared stand in his way. The very pillars that held up the holy land were shattered and crumbled like ash before him, and the downfall of so many stains his hands. In this tragedy's finale, Noland shattered the Sankt Kaiser's holy armor and tore out the lord's still beating heart. By this act, the Knight's hands were forever cursed to drip with the blood of the Sankt Kaiser. How exactly this event unfolded is uncertain, many story elements heavily warped by time, bias, memory, and other elements.

The common story begins with Noland receiving the device as both a gift and a test. However upon initial activation, the device became incredibly aggressive and acted on its own. It forced itself upon him, trapping his person in a swirling maelstrom of fire and wild magic that repelled all attempts to get through. His screams of agony drew the sympathy of all around him, yet they could do nothing. When the firestorm died down, Noland was left a blind man with the twin orbs of Cocytus taking the place of his eyes. Within them smoldered a hidden madness and rage held back by a flimsy barrier of will. Left weakened and severely disoriented, Noland was far from his normal state for some time. The Knight eventually returned to duty, but a changed man. Far more aggressive and quick to anger, Noland was bitter with his sudden loss of sight. However, he soon discovered that by tapping into the seething fire of his device, he could temporarily regain the ability to see. But to even look at him was to send the coldest of shivers down your spine, and eye contact with those furious red gems, now with baleful yellow irises and slitted black pupils, was to invite insanity.

The day of calamity was preceded by one event: 400% synchronization. No information exists explaining how or why this phenomenon occurred, but the extreme level of synchronization resulted in a complete ego border collapse, allowing the device AI and the primal Id to take over. Thus was born the Knight of Calamity, bringing about the Cataclysm and the end of ancient Belka.

The quest for truth is a difficult one, as many are extremely willing to shift the blame onto Noland. Thusly, Noland went down in history as the Great Traitor.

Recent History:

In the year MC 040, an amazing discovery was made near an unnamed gas giant planet. In dead orbit was a single derelict ship, an ancient starship called the Damocles. Shaped like a sword, the ship was reflective of Belkan design styles from times past. A sort of time-flux field seemed to protect the ship, thus explaining its amazing state of preservation. Pathfinder teams were able to penetrate the time flux field (interestingly advanced for its time) to explore the ship. Only one life sign was detected in the ship, located at the bridge. Pathfinder teams have described the ship as largely automatic, allowing it to be maintained with a minimal crew. Despite its design, the ship was lightly armed for its size, and it was by large designed to be a command ship. The front half of the ship contained great dining halls and decadent living quarters with an armored observation deck in at the ship's tip. All in all, the ship seems more of a personal yacht or pleasure cruiser than a military ship. Yet, the Damocles appears just as likely to appear as the flagship of a fleet. In a military standpoint, the ship could attack with a few powerful particle accelerator beam cannons or its torpedo launcher. The hull itself is amazingly solid, and its prow is heavily armored to allow ramming. The Damocles has since then been passed onto engineers and researchers for examination.

The ship's sole occupant was discovered to be still alive, although deep in a coma. The ship was quickly transported to Mid-Childa for analysis, exciting more than one historian and archaeologists. These people pushed for the immediate resuscitation and rehabilitation of the individual sealed within, and after relocating the ship to a dedicated research facility off-planet, efforts were made to carefully revive the sleeping man inside.

After an unspecified period of hibernation, Noland Reiniger awoke to a strange an unfamiliar galaxy completely unlike his home. Clad in garments unseen for years, ancient in style, design, and material, Noland possessed only his clothing, a tattered cloak, and wrappings around his eyes (it was later found that the wrappings possessed hexagrammic and tetragrammic wards to help suppress the device's lunacy inducing powers. He was understandably bewildered and confused upon awakening; despite attempts to communicate with him, he only insisted on being returned to stasis, often becoming agitated and anxious as time passed. Under observation, the Knight showed signs of mental contamination, of psychological degradation in conjunction with unrelenting night terrors that kept him from sleeping. The military soon had increased interested regarding this living relic, as Noland had admitted to being a Knight of Belka.

Wanting to observe the combat ability of an authentic knight, military officials attempted to push the Knight into combat trials. However, being blind severely reduced his combat efficiency, disappointing the officials. Still, Noland tried his best to fight off his foes and survive. During the final exercise, an unplanned addition to the combat team set off a terrible chain reaction, starting with a phosphorous bomb.

Set ablaze, Noland collapsed and instinctively tried to put himself out. As fire suppression teams rushed in, however, they were firsthand witnesses to an incredible transformation. Noland convulsed and bellowed to the skies as black chitinous plating erupted out and tore the simple clothing he had been given. Black and red armor seemed to unfold and meld to every part of Noland's body, the final part being his head seemingly consumed by the demon that dwelt within and replaced with wild lunacy.

A terrible mistake had been made. The Knight of Calamity had been reborn.

Security teams and military response groups tried valiantly to suppress the awakened monster, but they could not stand against the strength of madness. The military suffered horrifying losses and the facility was being torn apart from the inside out. An entire regiment of soldiers was lost before the call for full lockdown and evacuation was made. High in orbit, naval ships prepared to bombard the facility in an attempt to annihilate Noland. Amazingly, scanners and Pathfinder teams reported a strange reduction in magical reaction within the facility. An intact camera revealed news that was most fortunate: Noland had managed to suppress the demon and fall unconscious. The decision to return him to suspended animation was unanimous.

Noland Reiniger is currently in deep time lock stasis.

Style:

Noland is a full frontal assault specialist. Though the Knight is from a time long past, his experience and battle-hardened skills give him an edge over many foes. He often dives straight into the thickest of melees and devastates the enemy all around, completely disregarding his own safety. This does not mean he is reckless, however. He seeks to destroy, not to die, so he will defend if possible to prevent and reduce damage. The fearlessness inherent in madness allows him to leap about in a show of extraordinary agility and acrobatics, allowing him to avoid attacks and set up a more favorable position. That which he cannot defend from, he will unflinchingly continue his assault. With his incredible speed, agility, and resilience to damage, Noland can close the difference between he and the enemy in barely a blink then crush them with his terrifying strength. No mercy for the enemy, even if they beg for it.

OOC Stuff and Trivia

Noland has an interesting set of skills in addition to his melee abilities.

- He is a surprisingly good singer.
- His cooking ability is rather advanced; a top chef.
- Unnaturally good at stewardship.
- Has a strange attraction to cute things and high speed jpop-techno music. "MOE" is particularly effective.
- A hilarious drunkard. Also, a natural at Drunken Boxing.

Voice Actor:
Noland: Hozumi Gōda
Lunatic: Ichiro Mizuki (Keisar Ephes)
Device: Norio Wakamoto

Theme Music
Normal: Susumu Hirasawa – Forces
Lunatic: Nobuo Uematsu – Howl of the Departed

Alignment: Lawful Neutral (Normal) / Neutral Evil (Lunatic)
Befriendable: You can try.

Just for kicks, here's the Spell List too

Spoiler for Spell List ver. Beta:

Noland Reiniger

Unit Statistics:

Letters in parentheses indicate Lunatic mode
Statistics are assuming that the average person is straight D's

Strength: B (S+)
Endurance: A (S)
Agility: B (A+)
Mana: B (D)
Luck: C (E)

Since Noland is a knight that focuses almost exclusively on close combat, his melee abilities are ludicrously powerful. As a cost, however, his ranged combat is far below par. Unless otherwise noted, offensive spells utilize Noland's personal stats rather than individual spell-based stats.

Interesting to note is that his surname means "Purifier" or "Cleanser."

Spell List:

Layman's version

Spells marked with Passive means they are constantly active and do not require active control. This also means there is a constant drain on his mana and stamina.

Defensive / Supportive

Knight Armor -- Cocytus: Plate-style armor that can deflect physical and magic attacks under A class power and reduce the damage inflicted by attacks of higher power. Damages to the armor are immediately sealed up, though the wound underneath remains. The armor itself causes three changes in Noland's body:

1. The physical and mental limitations of the body are lifted, allowing him to use 100% of his muscles rather than the usual 20%.

2. All sensations of pain and exhaustion are numbed completely. Not even the greatest of wounds can be felt.

3. The body is reinforced against damage; the armor will immediately "treat" any injuries such as splinting a broken bone or resetting a dislocated joint. These treatments are haphazard at best and dangerous at worst.

The changes are a great physical strain on Noland's body, however, leading to exhaustion, heavy fatigue, and voracious appetite. A rest period of 48 hours is recommended between "uses."

Knight Armor -- Ancile: An invisible, intangible field surrounds Noland. It is useless against physical attacks, but "shooting" spells are deflected. Shieldbreakers can bypass the field, as can overwhelming firepower, but the field remains active even after being pierced -- it just fills in the hole.

Insanity Sign -- Terror of Death: (Passive) His very presence is fearsome, his battle cries sending shivers even down the most hardened of warriors. Those caught in this spell are immediately subjected to frightening hallucinations of friends and family suffering in utter agony, complete decimation of what used to be a happy life, and their own torturous deaths. Eye contact saps the very heart of those who look upon it, stealing away their strength and crushing their courage.

Insanity Sign -- Mad Enhancement: (Passive) All physical attributes are increased drastically at the cost of sanity. The greater the synchronization, the greater the attribute increase, but the more difficult it becomes to snap out of it.

Typical Synchronization values and their effects:

87% - The average value. Physical attributes are increased by approximately 80%. Noland retains shreds of his awareness and is capable of speech and following orders. He cannot, however, make overly complicated thoughts like tactics and strategy. The objective is destruction, and he excels in that task.

90% - Increased value. Attributes rank up to 100%. Noland loses the ability to speak and becomes difficult to control or command. Figures of authority may be ignored or even attacked.

95% - Dangerous Value. Attribute rank up to 200%. Noland begins to have trouble differentiating friend from foe and may target friendly forces once all enemy forces are annihilated.

100% - Maximum value. Attributes rank up to 300% or greater. Noland loses all sense of self and reason, becoming a pure berserker with an insatiable bloodlust and great desire to kill. Allies and enemies become equal opportunity victims.

400% - The value Noland reached that resulted in the Fall of Belka. It is unknown how to reach this level, but suffice to say you don't want to reach it again.

Offensive / Weapons:

Murder Sign -- Bloody Hands: Swathed in disruptive energies, physical defenses like armor crumple like tin foil against the armored fists and greaves of the Berserker. The claw-like hands have a sort of minor anti-magic effect, allowing him to "tear" through weaker spells. The hands are cursed to drip the blood of the Saint King eternally as a reminder of his greatest sin. As his primary weapons, he is required to be in melee combat.

Tyrant Sword -- Wraith Blade "Tyrfing": Noland's ultimate weapon, the cursed blade of tragedy. A blade of unidentified energies that extends from his right hand. The blade disintegrates anything it touches and disrupts magic. Use of this weapon results in a great physical and mental strain, as it uses Noland's life force to fuel its destructive power -- extended use could very well kill him, as every minute of its use shortens his lifespan. As a melee weapon, he is required to be in close quarters.
Power: EX

Restriction Sign -- Chains of Heaven and Hell: Originating from his gauntlets, two chains extend to incredible lengths for purposes of restraint, capture, defense, movement, and even extending his range of attack. The chains themselves are very solid, requiring a powerful direct hit to break through. As it is a physical chain rather than magical, dispelling will not work.
Speed: A
Control: A+

Bullet Hell -- Gatling Rave: Long range suppression fire. Staccato burst fire of small explosive “bolts.” Rapid fire, but relatively low power. The sheer volume of fire makes it difficult for opponents to act. Originates from gauntlets. Noland can add his other arm for double the firepower at the cost of a free hand.
Power: C+
Speed: AA
Range: B-

Bullet Hell -- Infernal Devil's Spear: Medium range anti-armor. A two-staged missile-like projectile. It takes the shape of a fiery bullet that first melts through the armor or shield then explodes violently in a burst of scorching power.
Power: AA
Speed: A
Range: C+
Special: Shieldbreaker / Armor Piercing

Cataclysm Sign -- Holocaust: Close range anti-unit. The very air in front of and around Noland crackles with furious energy as he projects forth the rage that drives him mad. Suddenly, it all ignites and explodes in a ball of searing white-hot flame. Those caught in the conflagration are set ablaze from the focused fury of Noland's shattered soul.
Power: AAA+
Range: D
Special: Area effect.

If everyone approves, this will be also be the official working version. ...Until next revision, at least. I hope it's acceptable; I'll make some fancy dedicated post thing for linkage and reference later.

[Keroko]

Originally Posted by FlameSparkZ

Hmmm...let's see...it takes him a while to fall asleep when he goes to bed, and when he does go to sleep, he's partially conscious of his surroundings (fighter's instinct?)
But, if he's exhausted from a day of training, he'll just sleep like a log until the next day

Also, as portrayed in a previous chapter, he has trouble sleeping with someone in the same room...until he gets used to that person.

Hmm, not what I'd hoped for, but workable. I'll just have to write a training routine beforehand.

Actually... concidering they'd be slaved in Academy, this will work just fine.

Originally Posted by Wild Goose

Keroko: I actually wilfully ignored all the flaws at first. Then I came to Nanoha OC and had to sigh and take note.

Feh, I still willfully ignore them. Heck, I still hardly notice them. If I want to know why the spread of forces in the last few episodes was so wrong, I'll have to dig through the millitairy thread, and I still don't understand what Hayate did wrong during the attack on the HQ.

Originally Posted by Wild Goose

On Belkans and speed, if they're moving so fast they can take Mid mages off-guard, then normal people don't really have much of a chance. It's like, they're moving faster than you can realise or react to.

Plus, Belkans specialize in physical enhancement magic, which means that on average a Belkan mage is faster then a Mid mage.

Originally Posted by Wild Goose

Also I just realised something: even if the mages or knights are still subsonic, or high subsonic, they could theoretically still dodge bullets. How?

Flashmove Sidestep. Or ducking behind cover - people have dodged enemy fire before - though admittedly more through luck...

Screw the Flash Move, any far-off shot in the series has shown us on multiple occasions that even 'normal' speed in a mage battle is freakishly fast, so even hitting them is not going to be simple. Flash moves are just icing on the cake.

Originally Posted by Jimmy C

No it's not. The point keeps getting raised and forgotten. Mid and Belka styles were competitors, with each being used by nearly half of all mages once. Not that Belka was a Mid-derivative. That was a mistranslation.

Blergh, forgot that. So what is the real translation of that scene then?

Originally Posted by Jimmy C

The problem is getting close while tanking all the damage the ranged fighter is throwing at you without being able to hit back until you're within arms' reach of him. Even worse, while you're closing, he can choose to continue shooting or move back to keep the range open. And in the air, keeping out of the melee fighter's reach is even easier. There may be no cover in the skies, but there are no obstacles either.

Speaking in MMO terms to give an example, the worst fear of a mage is a Warrior's 'charge' abillity, which basically is a move that allows the warrior to nearly instantly close in on a mage. Belkan mages specialize in physical enhancement magic, so they would be able to outrun the average Mid mage. If a Mid mage chooses to run, then a Mid mage already puts himself in a dangerous spots, as most of his moves require him to stand still and shoot. If the Belkan mage then throws in speed boosting spells, the the situation really starts to turn against the Mid mage.

Of course, this is but one example, and obviously in favor of the Belkan mage. But it shows that the Mid style is not inherently superior just because it uses range, and it shows that range in a magic battle is only one advantage, and one that is counterable as well.

Originally Posted by Jimmy C

Heck, in A's ep5, the Bureau's deployment was less than optimal. The best way to neutralize the Wolkies is to gang up on them. There's no way any of them can cope with two ranged fighters pouring the hurt on them while evading their attempts to close for the kill. Nanoha and Yuuno on Vita, Fate and Arf on Signum, half the extra mages to keep Zafira at bay, the other half to help Chrono find the remaining knight, Shamal.

*scratches head* o-kay, and what are you trying to tell me with this? I mean, if two Belkan mages gang up on one Mid mage, then the Mid mage is screwed as well.

[Sheba]

That Belkan vs Mid-Childa reminds me the long talks in Shoryuken.com and Dustloop.com about Keep-away vs Rushdown.

[Keroko]

Lemme guess, the conclusion was that both methods are equally good, and its the better player that would win?

[Sheba]

Originally Posted by Keroko

Lemme guess, the conclusion was that both methods are equally good, and its the better player that would win?

It depends on the player's skill and game systems. Games like King of Fighters tends to favor rushdown and grapplers against zoners. Street Fighter games tend to favor footsies and zoning. Marvel vs Capcom push the emphasis on keep-away and zoning to its paroxysm.

But if I take a game system that would be the closest to how Nanoha would be, it should be Immaterial and Missing Power.

By the very nature of the game, characters like Patchouli seems to have a natural advantage because of their projectiles, but against Remilia who seems to lean more toward rushdown and melee, she'll lose on the long run. But in this game, tournaments got examples of characters usually bottom-tier coming in top, showing that it lies in the players' hands.

[FlameSparkZ]

Originally Posted by Keroko

Hmm, not what I'd hoped for, but workable. I'll just have to write a training routine beforehand.

Actually... concidering they'd be slaved in Academy, this will work just fine.

Isn't that what happens in the Academy? Training and more training until they can't lift a single finger
Or maybe that's how Nanoha does it

*runs*

[Jimmy C]

Originally Posted by keroko

Blergh, forgot that. So what is the real translation of that scene then?

Something like this:

Originally Posted by selkirk

TL: A long time ago, it was a magic system that, along with Mid style, divided magic influence between the two of them. (bleh, I can't tl today... sounds really weird)
Not "splitting off" from Mid-style, but each sharing a half of the total influence.
In essence, it rivaled Mid-style in popularity / number of users, not "split off from" Mid-style.

I mean, if two Belkan mages gang up on one Mid mage, then the Mid mage is screwed as well.

But in that ep, the Bureau did have the Knights outnumbered. Yet, they wasted their numerical advantage.
I got real life mixed up in this. I shouldn't have. Magic bolts are significantly slower than bullets and everyone has shields to tank hits better. Those are the only things that give melee fighters a chance against ranged fighters.

and I still don't understand what Hayate did wrong during the attack on the HQ.

She did nothing. Even if she gave no orders, trusting in her officers, she should have done something to stay in the loop, monitor the situation, be ready to step in if she's needed. And with the large number of drones flying around, her wide-area attacks would have been very helpful in clearing them. Instead, she's holed up in the conference room "briefing" people. Something that Carim could have done.

[Comartemis]

Alright ladies and gents, here's the updated lineup of the Divine Phantasms. This is concurrent with my recent timelines, so barring any dramatic changes in my mood, this should be the final draft of the character lineup. Now for the characters themselves....

Spoiler for The Divine Phantasms:

History and Description:
The Divine Phantasms are a relatively new group in the interdimensional scene. Originally formed purely for the purpose of the liberation of Belka, they have gone on to become one of the most successful groups of contract mages in the TSAB’s entire history.

Most of the group’s core members were originally part of the ruling families of Belka in what Belkan history calls the Forth Age of Restoration, the period following the fall of the Belkan Empire and the rise of the TSAB. In MC 067, Weil Clearwater, an outcast from the Clearwater family thought to be dead for over a century, staged a coup of the throne of Belka backed by an army of mechanical soldiers called Gadgets, which were donated to Weil by a long-time associate, Jail Scaglietti (who used the resulting battles to collect performance data on his new Type-3 and Type-4 Gadgets). The noble families were taken by surprise and almost entirely slaughtered, save for the young scions, Irisian Valus Isard, Ciel Clearwater, and Rico Bachinka. The young trio escaped Weil’s trap thanks to the sacrifice of Kittan Bachinka, Rico’s adopted father and the last of the Helix Knights, and made good on their escape, traveling to Mid-Childa to request military aid.

What followed was a brutal week-long campaign as Mid-Childa’s forces struggled against Weil’s mechanical army and vast magical capabilities. It wasn’t until the battle was joined by the Ace Trio and the Wolkenritter that the tide of battle began to turn. Even then, the price of victory nearly became far too high when Takamachi Nanoha suffered a near-fatal wound from a Type-4 Gadget shortly before Weil’s death at the hands of Hayate and Rico.

Though Nanoha would eventually recover from her wounds, Belka would not be so easy to heal. The young heirs of the ruling families had no experience in matters of politics or leadership, and it was decided that Belka would be placed under the rule of the TSAB, leaving the heirs free to do as they wished.

Having no desire to simply live off their inheritances for the rest of their lives, the group consulted with the TSAB and ultimately decided to become contract mages once they’d spent a few years getting a formal education in the bureau’s Ground Forces Academy. It was here that the young knights made two valuable allies, Yuka Lesca and her familiar, Revy. The quintet graduated just in time for Rico to extend his education into the Air Forces Academy, placing into one of Nanoha’s first classes as a full-time teacher, while Iris and Ciel continued their educations in their respective fields of interest and Yuka expanded into Special Forces and Sniper training.

The group didn’t become truly active as contract mages until shortly before the beginning of the JS Incident, where they were tasked with the long-term mission of tracking down the source of the Jewel Seeds Jail used to power his Gadgets. The group was successful in halting Jail’s supply of Lost Logia, and returned to Mid-Childa just in time to lend assistance to the ground forces when Jail Scaglietti resurrected the Saint’s Cradle.

In the aftermath of the JS incident, the Phantasms continued to take jobs from the bureau, many of which involved tracking down and destroying Jail’s old bases in order to ensure that Jail hadn’t left any nasty surprises—namely, more clones of him with delayed activation times—for the bureau to find. At present they remain fixated on this assignment and may well remain so for the foreseeable future.

Team Members:


Rico Bachinka: A young orphan adopted by the Bachinka family, Rico was raised in the tradition of the Helix Knights, and is proud to call himself the last of the Spiraleritter (though he won’t remain the last if he has anything to say about it). Rico is the glue that holds the group together, and is as charismatic as many of the finest Helix Kings in Belkan history. Rico is the group’s only dedicated air combat mage, and when in battle he usually focuses his attention of air superiority, though many of his high-altitude tactics can be adapted for ground battles if needed. In battle, Rico’s position is that of Guard Wing.


Irisian Valus Isard: A traditional Belkan Knight trained in the Ancient Belka style. Skilled in both melee and ranged combat, Iris augments her attacks with ice-based and water-based magic, and serves as the group’s primary front attacker.


Ciel Clearwater: Ciel is a dedicated support mage who acts as a mobile command center, usually hanging back far away from the battle and providing information and support magic to the others through her twin devices. A product of experiments in genetic manipulation, Ciel is occasionally referred to as a “Tactical Battlefield Coordinator”, or simply “Coordinator”, and is able to process magic and cast spells at a much higher speed than most other mages. She is also somewhat skilled with healing magic, and acts as the group’s device meister.


Yuka Lesca: A dedicated sniper descended from an S-rank mage. Yuka is the group’s ranged specialist, skilled with shooting and bombardment spells at mid-to-extreme ranges but nearly useless in melee. She almost always wears a pair of sunglasses which double as a targeting visor and heads-up-display when in battle.


Revy: A hot-tempered and cold-blooded gunslinger, and Yuka’s catgirl familiar. Revy was formed from the magical energies of Yuka’s mother and ordered to protect Yuka after her death, and she pursues this goal with a vengeance. Revy is very weak magically but very strong physically, and makes up for her lack of attack magic with her skill with non-magical firearms and the ability to create Orichalcon rounds for said firearms, giving her guns significant penetration power against nearly all forms of magical protection.


Lira: A failed clone of the Saint King created by Jail Scaglietti, Lira is a dedicated melee fighter who uses a spear called Reginleif and powerful steel-element attacks. Despite being fully-grown, Lira lacks the Saint’s Armor as a result of Jail’s genetic tampering, and is highly interested in getting her hands on a relic to try to correct this.