Magical Girl Lyrical Nanoha Character Creation and Discussion

[Comartemis]

Eh, I'd just as soon give them turbolasers and concussion missiles and be done with it. The Arc is enough of a super-heavy weapon, and bureau warships sure as hell don't need another one, much less ten of these things.

[AdmiralTigerclaw]

I can turn it down to spitball shooting power level if you want to. That's the nice thing about energy weapons. VARIABLE YIELD!

[Keroko]

Originally Posted by AdmiralTigerclaw

It's my naval guns, giving them to the TSAB... (Considering the only Naval Weapon I've seen are the Arcs, and that's 'point whole ship, wait five minutes, shoot', one yield level only, strategic weapon.)

<_<
>_>

I can do that because I own the Sunstars. ^_^;
Tactical Heavy Cannons FTW!

http://www.sheezyart.com/view/1584045/

So your answer to the TSAB's only ship-based weapon that takes 1 minute to fire is to give them a weapon that takes 2 minutes to fire?

[AdmiralTigerclaw]

The Initial Shot Warmup time is only twelve seconds.
After that, it's any time you want it to fire. (Allowing for the 1.5 second R.O.F. of course.)

[Keroko]

Really? That's not what your audio file said though :3

The entire ordeal began at 0:30, after a lot of clearance yadda yadda, loading and charging (great job, by the way) the shots were fired around 2:10 (counting after the last round was fired) that's 1 minute and 40 seconds before the weapon was fired.

Arc en Ciel began prepping at 20:42, and the shot fired at 21:27, which is 45 seconds. The Arc en Ciel beats the Sunstars with more then half the time. :3

You'll have to pardon my nitpickery, its late and I felt like a laugh.

[AdmiralTigerclaw]

Originally Posted by Keroko

Really? That's not what your audio file said though :3

The entire ordeal began at 0:30, after a lot of clearance yadda yadda, loading and charging (great job, by the way) the shots were fired around 2:10 (counting after the last round was fired) that's 1 minute and 40 seconds before the weapon was fired.

Arc en Ciel began prepping at 20:42, and the shot fired at 21:27, which is 45 seconds. The Arc en Ciel beats the Sunstars with more then half the time. :3

You'll have to pardon my nitpickery, its late and I felt like a laugh.

Warmup begins at 1:43, is ready at 1:55, but is held until the order is given.

Everything else is dramatics to match the music.

And only one shot is fired. What you hear isn't three shots, but one shot doing the classic triple take.

Let me break the timeline down.

Spoiler for timeline:

0:24
- Camera flyby of the ship (Dramatic entrance.)

0:37
- Orbital Reposition Complete

0:45
- Clearances and code confirmations. (You're about to fire something with a yield of up to 200 GT at Danger Close range of your own troops... you BETTER be running clearances and safety releases.)


1:03
- STAND BY (Locking turret to target and responding dialogue.)

1:16
- Turret rotates following orders just prior.)

1:28
- Lock confirmed, standing by...

1:35
- Time overlap, what's going on at surface level.

1:41
- Cut back to orbit.

1:43
- Weapon Warms up.

1:55
- Warmup Complete, relayed to commander.

2:04
- Extra Special Effects Overdramatization of Shot being fired. Including Triple Take.

2:09
- Camera chases beam surface-ward and fades to white.

2:16
- Time Overlap, 'LANCE ON HIGH' warning.

2:23
- Beam IMPACT, which would actually have occured around 2:10 if you remove the time overlapped parts for the radio warning.

Or if you strip the overlapped parts completely...

Or if you remove the six seconds overlapping time, and the three seconds of triple taking, you get impact at 2:01.

If you go from charge to impact, omitting the onboard conversation (Clear to fire...):

You have twelve seconds, plus seven seconds.

19 seconds from warmup to impact.

I know exactly what I did. Most of the time stretching is Dramatics. (Drawing out something only twenty seconds long into two minutes... not bad dramatization.)

And that's for a precision shot against a surface target from mid earth orbit. (Precision is reletive when you're dishing out yields in the megaton range.) Not a snap shot at targets within mere kilometers of each other. And not even a followup shot.

Incidently...I calced the Arc-en-Ciel at five teratons yield.

Have fun with that number.

[Keroko]

If we count for dramatization, then the charge rate of the Arc improved dramarically as well. I'll get to that tommorow though, first, Cort, here's your updated Isard image.



Scaaary, now she has a blue/red eye just like Syn too.

Oh, and Tiger? yields draw blanks with me.

[AdmiralTigerclaw]

Think ASTEROID sized destruction.

Or look at it thise way.

200 Megatons is the energy to produce a nuclear fireball five kilometers (three miles) in radius (six miles across.) And flash fry everything in a seventy mile radius.


A Teraton, is five THOUSAND times the energy. And produces a fireball about two-hundred kilometers in radius.

Five Teratons is twenty five thousand times the initial energy of 200 MT... and produces a fireball about 400 kms across, and a blast that goes out six thousand km or so, and has a footprint on a planet twelve thousand kilometers wide. There's a reason they didn't want to shoot that thing at the surface of the earth... Maybe THAT is why. You know... smashing an entire hemisphere just to get the book of darkness might not be such a hot idea... Well, it IS hot... VERY hot... Scortching hot.



((I calced the Arc by going on it's 200 km radius of destruction. (200 km radius, 400 km diameter) Or, everything within 200 kms of blast point is vaporized. Vaporizing means thermal energy. Assuming a nuclear fireball to be absolute vaporization, just to be safe... the yield comes to around five Teratons. Subject to inaccuracies due to lack of data...))

[Comartemis]

Oooooh, nice work, Kero.

[Wild Goose]

ATC, just a heads up - you need to recalc your yield. The Arc's radius is 100km and diameter is 200km. -_-

[AdmiralTigerclaw]

I asked about that too. Just slice it back to 2.5 Teratons or so. Still EPIC level destruction.

[Comartemis]

Very handy to know if you've got Arcs involved in your story.

[arkhangelsk]

Originally Posted by AdmiralTigerclaw

I asked about that too. Just slice it back to 2.5 Teratons or so. Still EPIC level destruction.

Half the radius does not equal half the yield. The fireball scalar is ~Y^0.4. Try about 1 teraton...

[Tk3997]

Originally Posted by AdmiralTigerclaw

I asked about that too. Just slice it back to 2.5 Teratons or so. Still EPIC level destruction.

Expect it sure as hell isn't using DET making your entire spiel bogus while it's radius is impressive attempting to apply DET to something repeatedly called a "magic" cannon is shaky at BEST; acutally it's bloody stupid.

[AdmiralTigerclaw]

Originally Posted by Tk3997

Expect it sure as hell isn't using DET making your entire spiel bogus while it's radius is impressive attempting to apply DET to something repeatedly called a "magic" cannon is shaky at BEST; acutally it's bloody stupid.

And I don't really care either what you think is stupid.


So THERE!











Anyway, I'm bored.

So, I did some fleshing on Daedalus today... Or, rather just how he fights.

Spoiler for Black Mamba:

-The battle music to the lightning fast fighting form of the Black Mamba style!-

Fighting Style: Ancient Belken Composite dubbed 'Black Mamba'
This is a fighting style Daed developed exclusively for himself in secret for twenty years. In the years he spent studying the Ancient Belken texts, he uncovered many pieces of their magical styles pouring over the books on endless nights, piecing together exotic methods of magical manipulation the likes of which most scholars can only dream of... (Except maybe Yuuno, if he ever took interest in that sort of thing.) One of these is magical bladeform manipulation, an almost basic mechanic of magical blades that many devices use, but taken one step further, as he has developed with help of Marcellus Fabrizio in the form of Souja, his gloves.
As stated previously, with a thought, he can form just whatever shape of energy in his grasp he wishes, which can be blades of many shapes and sizes, or random bolts. By utilizing the ease in which he can fluidly move from a broad sword to twin daggers, to a bo-staff, to a kunai, to a rapier... and more, he can effectively use any armed fighting style he can imagine.
Of course, to come up with a combat art that incorporates this ability was no mean feat. He had to continuously study and master a wide range of fighting forms before he could even begin to integrate them all into a style. This is made even more difficult because of his dedication to practicing the style in secret.
Practicing against simulated Ancient Belken Knights, or even Data reprisentations of modern TSAB Aces, he has forged a fighting style of both technique and intelligence that could potentially be a match even for power hitters of the S Rank. In terms of combat form, it is completely Alien to nearly anyone of any modern style. It's perchent for unpredictability leaves it increadibly dangerous in a melee match.
And with a superb manipulative mind on top of it, the tactical and strategic situations are that much more dangerous.


**Having trouble? Just imagine Kagato with the ability to do things like Necrid does in Soul Calibur II. IE, start swinging his fist and form the sword AS he's doing so. Now give him about ten times the number of moves and techniques that necrid uses, add snap shot projectile attacks, and give him the ability to fly. Got that? Good. Now imagine him Melee fighting with two aces and two knights simultaniously like a cyclone of magic blades and chaos! Not that he'd be able to walk away the victor of such a fight, but well enough to fight them off and escape before he could be IDed. (Thank masks.)**

[arkhangelsk]

Originally Posted by Tk3997

Expect it sure as hell isn't using DET making your entire spiel bogus while it's radius is impressive attempting to apply DET to something repeatedly called a "magic" cannon is shaky at BEST; acutally it's bloody stupid.

No and yes. The No part is that even though something is "magic", it nevertheless undeniably interacts with the "physical" universe, and the magnitude of that interaction can be measured. There might be an "astral component", so to speak, but that's unevaluable and of no concern to us.

A better objection will be to say that the assumption of the physical interaction being EM radiation is flawed because:
1) It is inconsistent with the canon explanation, which explains its action as "warping (presumably of space time) destruction".
2) Since the whole Arc firing apparently (IIRC) happened in low-Earth orbit, the lack of serious effects on ground level is inconsistent with the Arcenciel being a teraton class EM radiation release. It is also inconsistent with visible effects (such as the green blob thing "zipping" itself up).

The problem is that we do not currently understand the nature of space time distortions well enough to come up with good estimates for the energy requirement, and further the exact amount of distortion cannot be assessed with any accuracy solely on the visuals. Thus the computation of a yield is impossible.

[Tk3997]

Originally Posted by Keroko

Show me a single page from the manga that contradicts the dialogue. So far all I'm reading is 'many circumstances are involved in the outcome of a battle' which does not contradict Belka being a superior magic style on 1-on-1 combat.

God you're thick headed at times.

The manga is talking about who'd win in a one on one fight yes? They ask the Knights this question pretty much flat out now if this bit of bullshit is true they ought to say something like "Belka is a superior style for dueling so we'd win" and yet they don't AT ALL. Signum basiclly flat out says "the characteristics and circumstances of any fight would change the outcome." How can Belka be inherently superior one on one if the circumstance matter enough to swing the outcome?

After all if we take the bullshit boost literary they should win regardless as long as it one on one right since Belka is flat out better no?

Again, I'd like to know where you get these 'in a number of cases.' Even with her boosted Raising Heart, Nanoha didn't exactly shoot Vita out of the sky immediately. Vita got out of the Axel Shooter deathtrap and back into melee without any damage, leaving you with only the long-range shot. That's one case.

This is another case of bad tactics really Nanoha had Vita pinned down so... She stood still and didn't attempt to either gain distance or switch things up and exploit the advantage instead she just kept pummeling the shield. I'd put this down to inexperience and a lack of training myself she was a 9 year old with no formal schooling in combat at the time recall. She was basiclly relying on brute power more then skills or sound planning which is about the least effective way for a ranged fighter to try and deal with a melee user.

She wasn't exploiting her advantages well at all and I don't consider much of anything we see in A's as very good examples given that the only really serious ranged ranged fighter present (Nanoha) was grossly inexperienced. Yet even so she still stood Vita off in most of there fights and would have probably defeated her decisively at least once if not for outside interference. So basiclly I look at it like this; in essence a 9 year old with no formal tactical training and rather poor intuitive tactical sense was able to hold off an experienced melee fighter after being exposed to them once, given a comparable weapon, and filled in with a bit of background on the foe.

That's basiclly what happened and frankly it dosen't sound to flattering at all.

Then of course we have Teana's unmitigated pwnage of two totally melee focused cyborgs (covered by a shooter no less). She used a slight bit of melee herself (though it was pretty much solely defensive). It's true she also relied on illusions quite a bit, but my response is so what that's just another good way to bolster shootings advantages and as noted it was also three on one. Plus when it came down to the end game her shooting spells were the only thing that allowed her to pull it all off a straight melee fighter never could have managed what she did. That's really the example I'd go back to the most as even in fairly close quarters battle a shooter with a fair defense can use there skills to stand off or even trump dedicated melee fighters and of course still be drastically more effective at longer ranges.

That's basiclly my point a good shooter can fight in close AND at a distance a melee attacker MUST close to have a chance and yet against a well balanced shooter it's still a crap shoot even if he gets close.

You mean just like how you ignored the Barrier Jackets shielding the fall of the mages and instead went with Ark's unproven shield?

Well you seemed just as eager to explain away a bug fucking pwning Rein's jacket without even touching her... Also just disregarding scenes totally is acutally not as bad IMO. If we just agree to say something just didn't happen then none of it is valid and we can throw it all out. When we take a scene and start trying to pick only specific parts to keep or even altering altering key characteristics (the speed of a shot for instance) basiclly just becasue we "feel" some number is more realistic any kind of logical debate becomes impossible as we can all just decide to slightly tweak anything we don't like about evidence presented against us.

Or how you rejected the visual evidence of Nanoha controlling the rounds and went with your 'its the device' theory, despite all the evidence pointing against you?

Not the same thing as I said that controlling was indeed possible, but that it wasn't the only way and it ISN'T canon says other guidance is possible. If we ONLY had Nanoha to go on I'd been on shaky ground, but once heat seeking was confirmed it blew it wide open; alternate guidance modes are canon deal with it.

Putting that aside, what about Vita's Schwable Fliegen? Those things go at least as fast as a baseball being hit, and its still viable to shoot them down.

Not really just look at them you can track them visually easily over well over a second of flight even at fairly short ranges. Besides with some machine assitenance provided by the device hard kill counters are probably more viable though as long as the mage is in the decsion making loop it's still limited.

Or when mages move faster then normal humans and are still able to accurately hit eachother and block their oponents attacks.

Acutally not really in fact most of the time flash move type things are used as dodges and the handful of times I can recall one used as some kind of attack is basiclly like a straight ahead rush which for some reason the enemy makes no real attempt to evade... This only makes sense Higher Speed = Higher Momentum = harder to turn or change course. Just like you can't change direction at a full sprint nearly as easily as when you're at a casual walk.

Movement, reaction and accuracy already go beyond the scope of what normal humans can do, Tk. Like you yourself said: This is magic, it doesn't work like anything we know by science.

Not always, but given that humans actually exist and function many of the rules are still in play. (since if you fuck with even tiny basic functions the universe as we know it would get a BSOD). I also disagree with two of those statements no one has ever shown boosted reaction times nor have they ever been mentioned "bullet time" or the like dose not IMO exist in Nanoha and as I recall time travel is said to be impossible which to me makes time manipulation just as much so (manipulating the brain itself to react and process faster MIGHT be possible, but would seem hideously dangerous to attempt...). I may still be willing to concede slightly enhanced "hero" reflexes, but not actively superhuman ones.

Accuracy is indeed better but given that the shooter is being aided by a highly advanced automated fire control system (AKA his device) that's hardly unexpected. Indeed automated assistance from the device can easily explain most any feat of accuracy you care to name. Just look at a modern tank it can be chugging along over speed bumps at 40 MPH and still drill a target center of mass from well over a kilometer away. Do you think the gunner is "Beyond human"? No he has help all he really needs to do is center the target in his sights and push a button, the FCS dose the rest.

Acutally that's another damn good reason to have a device it probably greatly aids accuracy in shooting and allows for a much more mobile kind of battle involving fire and maneuver instead of standing still and having to take very careful aim.

And besides, Nanoha's beam was clearly a blatant effect goof. Slow crawling beam, even a perspective change? Yup, effect.

No an effects goof is when the ship the characters are in suddenly becomes a different type with no possible way they could have changed to another or a boom mic ends up hanging down into the scene.

A beam moving really slow and still managing to hit it's target is NOT if the beam was meant to be fast they could have drawn it fast, but they didn't and so it wasn't meant to be. Whatever the reasoning (probably becasue the slowly advancing beam o' death looks cool) they opted to make it slow and as such it's slow. To say otherwise is to basiclly say "fuck ALL canon if I don't like something I'll just say the animators screwed up and it was REALLY like this!"

Also I serve notice that from now one if you ever present an example of a beam moving really fast I'll freely discard it and say it was an effects goof and in fact it was supposed to be moving at a snails pace. See how shit like this makes rational discussion impossible? Basically if we decide to disregarded what we see then we can't even have a discussion becasue everything becomes totally baseless and unsupported opinion.

[LimitedEternal]

*pokes head in*

Good to see it's nice and lively again here.

TK, Keroko, how about you two agree to disagree or something? I mean, you as good as admitted you take opposite sides on this "melee vs. ranged" debate on principle. Not to be a wet blanket or anything, but...can't you come up with some handwave where both are useful? :3

No time now for a proper breaker, but I'll get to it tomorrow. Free time is so good to have now...:3

*vanishes*

[Keroko]

Originally Posted by LimitedEternal

*pokes head in*

Good to see it's nice and lively again here.

TK, Keroko, how about you two agree to disagree or something? I mean, you as good as admitted you take opposite sides on this "melee vs. ranged" debate on principle. Not to be a wet blanket or anything, but...can't you come up with some handwave where both are useful? :3

No time now for a proper breaker, but I'll get to it tomorrow. Free time is so good to have now...:3

*vanishes*

Hey, no objections from me, but try convinving Tk of that.

Besides, we're having fun here.

Originally Posted by Tk3997

God you're thick headed at times.

*shrug* guilty as charged. But that's the pot calling the kettle black, really.

Originally Posted by Tk3997

The manga is talking about who'd win in a one on one fight yes? They ask the Knights this question pretty much flat out now if this bit of bullshit is true they ought to say something like "Belka is a superior style for dueling so we'd win" and yet they don't AT ALL. Signum basiclly flat out says "the characteristics and circumstances of any fight would change the outcome." How can Belka be inherently superior one on one if the circumstance matter enough to swing the outcome?

After all if we take the bullshit boost literary they should win regardless as long as it one on one right since Belka is flat out better no?

In a fight, there are many circumstances influencing a battle. Experience, talent, skill, weapons, terain, motivation, health, all these things matter in a battle. The Wolkenritter had a lot of experience for example, but that was met with Nanoha and Fate's talent. To paint an example: A sniper is a weapon with long range, thus someone with a sniper should automatically win because he can shoot his targets from long range, yes? But what if they're fighting inside a building? Despite the fact that the sniper has a longer range, the characteristics of the battle change to make it less so.

Add to that that the most used way to train melee fighting (and thus Belkan) is one-on-one training, and you will see that Belkan magic does hold an advantage. More training in one on one equals more experience in one on one, which adds to the factors of victory.

Belkan is the best option in one-on-one, but that is only one factor out of many.

Originally Posted by Tk3997

Well you seemed just as eager to explain away a bug fucking pwning Rein's jacket without even touching her...

Maybe because that scene makes no sense at all from a realistic point of view? If a puff of wind from a bug flying by can tear a jacket, then flying, which produces much more wind pressure, or hell even moving around should tear the damn thing apart.

Originally Posted by Tk3997

Also just disregarding scenes totally is acutally not as bad IMO. If we just agree to say something just didn't happen then none of it is valid and we can throw it all out. When we take a scene and start trying to pick only specific parts to keep or even altering altering key characteristics (the speed of a shot for instance) basiclly just becasue we "feel" some number is more realistic any kind of logical debate becomes impossible as we can all just decide to slightly tweak anything we don't like about evidence presented against us.

This... is true. No denying that. However, how do you explain the fluctuations in magic speed then? One moment we can track them with our eyes, the next scene its apparently instant.

Originally Posted by Tk3997

Not the same thing as I said that controlling was indeed possible, but that it wasn't the only way and it ISN'T canon says other guidance is possible. If we ONLY had Nanoha to go on I'd been on shaky ground, but once heat seeking was confirmed it blew it wide open; alternate guidance modes are canon deal with it.

I am dealing with it. Heck, I admited I was wrong that there were no guidance rounds the moment Barret F was mentioned. Still doesn't change the fact that all visuals and vocals point to Nanoha being the one controlling in that episode.

Originally Posted by Tk3997

Not really just look at them you can track them visually easily over well over a second of flight even at fairly short ranges. Besides with some machine assitenance provided by the device hard kill counters are probably more viable though as long as the mage is in the decsion making loop it's still limited.

Now this is interesting. We have physics defying rounds here. They are hit with a weapon with enough force to match a baseball ball being hit (and and if we nitpick the physics, then concidering they can punch through metal they should be going a damn lot faster too).

Originally Posted by Tk3997

Acutally not really in fact most of the time flash move type things are used as dodges and the handful of times I can recall one used as some kind of attack is basiclly like a straight ahead rush which for some reason the enemy makes no real attempt to evade... This only makes sense Higher Speed = Higher Momentum = harder to turn or change course. Just like you can't change direction at a full sprint nearly as easily as when you're at a casual walk.

I was actually talking about scenes like these:



Which also shows them taking turns that are supposed to be impossible because of their momentum. Anyway, even with speeds like this (which, concidering their manouvering, aren't Flash Moves) they can still hit and block eachother, despite defying what a human body should physically be able to do.

Originally Posted by Tk3997

Not always, but given that humans actually exist and function many of the rules are still in play. (since if you fuck with even tiny basic functions the universe as we know it would get a BSOD).

And yet, canon makes them do things no normal human should be able to do. Strange, no?

Originally Posted by Tk3997

I also disagree with two of those statements no one has ever shown boosted reaction times nor have they ever been mentioned "bullet time" or the like dose not IMO exist in Nanoha

*snrk* Oh, I'm sorry, but you do realize that those awesome bullet time scenes in the Matrix were inspired by anime, right? Just saying bullet time doesn't exist in anime is laughable, concidering anime pretty much invented it. The number of anime that don't use bullet time is so much smaller then the anime that do, its not even worth counting. Nanoha is filled with scenes that, should they have been live action, would have been bullet time. Hell, the very first episode of the very first season already has such a scene at 18:43, episode 2 at 3:03, episode 3 at 6:54 and 16:05 episode 4... You know what? Forget it, I already listed several examples in the least combatative episodes of Nanoha. As soon as combat starts, the scenes pile up even more.

Originally Posted by Tk3997

Accuracy is indeed better but given that the shooter is being aided by a highly advanced automated fire control system (AKA his device) that's hardly unexpected. Indeed automated assistance from the device can easily explain most any feat of accuracy you care to name. Just look at a modern tank it can be chugging along over speed bumps at 40 MPH and still drill a target center of mass from well over a kilometer away. Do you think the gunner is "Beyond human"? No he has help all he really needs to do is center the target in his sights and push a button, the FCS dose the rest.

Acutally that's another damn good reason to have a device it probably greatly aids accuracy in shooting and allows for a much more mobile kind of battle involving fire and maneuver instead of standing still and having to take very careful aim.

Oh goody, I get my stabilizers back and I didn't even have to argue with you over them again.

Anyway, I was talking about melee accuracy. Its harder to hit a target when you're moving fast, but even harder to block hits if you're moving fast. Yet, the cast has no problems doing either.

Originally Posted by Tk3997

No an effects goof is when the ship the characters are in suddenly becomes a different type with no possible way they could have changed to another or a boom mic ends up hanging down into the scene.

A beam moving really slow and still managing to hit it's target is NOT if the beam was meant to be fast they could have drawn it fast, but they didn't and so it wasn't meant to be. Whatever the reasoning (probably becasue the slowly advancing beam o' death looks cool) they opted to make it slow and as such it's slow. To say otherwise is to basiclly say "fuck ALL canon if I don't like something I'll just say the animators screwed up and it was REALLY like this!"

The problem is that I'm not just saying this 'because I don't like it.' Although it is true that I don't like it, I'm not without support, as the DVD booklet blatantly states that Divine Buster Extension has 'amazing speed' even though we see no such speed on screen.

Originally Posted by Tk3997

Also I serve notice that from now one if you ever present an example of a beam moving really fast I'll freely discard it and say it was an effects goof and in fact it was supposed to be moving at a snails pace. See how shit like this makes rational discussion impossible? Basically if we decide to disregarded what we see then we can't even have a discussion becasue everything becomes totally baseless and unsupported opinion.

Vice, episode 26, 5:55 mark and onwards. His beams hit the gadgets he was targetting seemingly instantly.

Yes, you can freely discard this, the only problem is that you don't have a booklet backing up your claims. I do.

The greatest problem here is the lack of consistency. If the speeds in Nanoha were constant, you wouldn't hear me complaining about them. The problem is, speeds are not constant. In one scene everything and everyone is moving at a snails pace, in the other everything is high-speed combat and shots. So what do we do? Asume the slowest? Asume the fastest? I am of the opinion that we should assume the fastest. Even if we start to look at things realistically, it makes more sense, as projectiles with slow, dodgable speeds can't possibly do as much damage as we see on-screen.

[Wild Goose]

I've just gotten back from a long day at work and a really long drive home, but I noticed something: TK's position that ranged is viable against melee assumes that the Mid-childan is competant.

Which I find deliciously ironic given the general feelings of TSAB incompentance on these boards :P

As for the many circumstances issue, take an F-14D vs a Su-27. The Tomcat outranges the Flanker, but the Flanker is more nimble. Who wins comes down to many fanctors: pilot experience & skill, weapons loadout, maintennance issues, EW support, and a myriad of other elements.

That said, generally speaking, following the Boyd Loop, also known as the OODA Loop (Observation Orientation Decision Action), the guy who wins is not the guy who makes the best decision, but the guy who decides and acts first, forcing his opponent to follow his momentum and rhythm of combat. Thus, using the principles of the OODA loop, it may be possible for a Belkan to gain the upper hand on a Mid; observe Nanoha vs Vita in A's, where Vita was dominating because she was inside Nanoha's OODA loop, forcing Nanoha to keep reacting to her tempo. (First attack is part of OODA too.) Another example would be the first Ivanov vs Fokker duel in Macross Zero, where Ivanov maintained the upper hand and his tempo on Fokker.

and that's all for my short post, I'll do a more longer one later.