Learning Japanese

[whitepearl]

Originally Posted by nikorai

Let's take for example even some simplest kanji like 男 (man). If you look at it you instantly get an idea that it is not simply a man, but acually brute force for work on a rice field. 「男」という漢字は田と力から成り立っておるってことですね。

I never noticed that until I read your post. It makes a lot of sense.

[iLney]

Originally Posted by Mystique

*me turns off english logic in your brain*
You're thinking too hard, stop.

It's as bluebeard - said and broke it down for you in the quote i've pasted. It isn't grammatically perfect with particles involved to convey the 'and', it definitely is more a 'spoken' verse than written, so if you go to a resturant in japan and they're trying to get numbers, then you'll hear this often.
It's basically the waiter saying to Mr Yamada directly or reading from a reservation sheet to him just to confirm if you need context.

But 'ni mei' (2 pple) is a good counter for resturants, so helps to remember

Thank you. <Turn brain off> </die>

[iLney]

横田さんはお子さんがいます。

お子さんがい = a child was born, right?

The closest thing I can find for "さんがい" is "3 realms: past, present, future." So can I replace お子 for anything else to convey the idea of something being born?


In:　お皿は　１０枚ぐらい　あります。
Can　１０枚ぐらい be written as １０枚位　or even 十枚位 and still retain the meaning?

[aohige]

^no, you're cutting off at the wrong place.
横田さんは　お子さんが　います

So simply,

Yokota-san has a child.

Again, you're thinking too hard.

[iLney]

In a string like that, how can I know where to cut off? Is there any hint or just experience?

[aohige]

cut off at the conjunctions separating the subject, pronoun, and verb. In this example, は and が are the ones.

[RandomGuy]

Originally Posted by aohige

cut off at the conjunctions separating the subject, pronoun, and verb. In this example, は and が are the ones.

In terms of phrasing longer sentences, these types of places are also where you'll find the punctuation mark that resembles the comma (、) in written text, if it's there. There is considerably more variation in how it gets (properly) used in Japanese: if memory serves, it's only absolutely required after the disjunctive particle が, but it can basically go at any point where you break off a phrase.

[aohige]

......?

I'm talking about the above example, none of what you suggested is there.
The example he's asking, is a simple sentence composed of standard subject, conjunction, object (pronoun), conjunction, verb. Very straight forward.

What you're saying is correct, but it doesn't really have anything to do with this particular sentence.

In a string like that, how can I know where to cut off? Is there any hint or just experience?

[GyroidFanatic]

I'm in my second semester of Japanese right now, working on the second half of Genki I. Does anyone have any recommendations for miscellaneous grammar books and stuff I should pick up to help me?

[nikorai]

whitepearl

I never noticed that until I read your post. It makes a lot of sense.

Oh, I was writing that a few pages back. Thanks for your hard work of reading this thread. And thanks for the comment, appreciated.

Speaking of cutting things off. I'm a bit confused with the question. What exactly is needed? Recognizing parts of speech? Well I can imagine, it's like when I'm looking at chinese text and I can only guess what part is what. Though, sometimes I pick up the key words correctly. Why chinese, you ask? Well, when I'm watching anime, I often refer to chinese subs if I can't make out words. Chinese subs do help.

Back to the subject of cutting things, I'm translating stuff from iDOLM@STER at the moment. Please don't ask me if I'm sick. I am, I have health issues. But the quality of english sub for idolm@ster ova is so low and the bonus videos are missing in the last year release that I thought, perhaps I can as well make my own translation if nobody elso does.

So when I went to Iori's profile.

In the 3rd line I read as far as UTAGAU, but then stopped myself. Of course it is read UTA GA UMAKU, ... By the way, kanji in this case could be of much help but Iori chose to ignore them completely (though, she knows her name).

Oh, now that I took so much of your time, mind to help me with one phrase?
In Miki's profile she writes -

What's this 'あんまそうならないカンジ' mean? From the context I can guess that she doubts she'll have any success but will be glad if she does. The first part with '...hisshi ni naru no... nigate...' is clear to me. I see it as that she doesn't feel like working hard.

[iLney]

I have some questions:
私はよく妹と遊びました.

妹 = いもうと

So does it read "いもうと" or "いもうとと ?"
Why don't we use を　here? It sounds better too....

And:

何になさいますか？
Does it read

なにになさいますか? (this one I got in my pile of flash cards)

なになさいますか?

The first sounds kinda weird...

Srry if my questions seems silly, I don't study grammar (to avoid making up sentences), so....

[Mystique]

Originally Posted by iLney

I have some questions:
私はよく妹と遊びました.

妹 = いもうと

So does it read "いもうと" or "いもうとと ?"
Why don't we use を　here? It sounds better too....

と in that sense = with (Can also mean 'and' in a different sense)
So the sentence is simply:
I often hung out with my younger sister.
を　is used when something is being done to the subject, hence why it's usually together with verbs (since they're action words)
To use を would mean she's doing her sister (lit: I played my sister) and I don't quite think they're portraying incest here

The 何になさいますか？ one, I'm a little sketchy on, so leaving that to the board, one of the usual suspects will answer in time

[Doughnuts]

Originally Posted by Mystique

The 何になさいますか? one, I'm a little sketchy on, so leaving that to the board, one of the usual suspects will answer in time

なにに。 often shortened to なんに

[iLney]

Thank you very much.

PS: another question

There's a manga named：

君のいる町。 (the town where you came)

いる is a verb so I read it as "the town came you." Is this structure some kind of inversion?

And
町 and　街 can have the same reading and meaning. My question is: Can I interchange those or is there a much more preferable one between those two?

[Quarkboy]

Originally Posted by RandomGuy

So, my JLPT Ikkyuu results came in today.

...

...Holy fuck, I actually passed.

I only got a 58 on the Kanji section—I believe that counts as a 'bomb'—but I owned the Listening, and did passably on the Grammar–Reading Comprehension part. Overall, I managed a 292/400, which I think is a 73. (Passing for Ikkyuu is a 70.)

Now, is there a way to order a frame-able copy that doesn't show my ぎりぎり合格 score? I'd like to have something I can send to my parents...

EDIT: the JEES website tells me this:
...And yet, the back of the test results only tells me how to request an official copy for submission to potential schools and employers...

Congrats! I passed the 2-kyu myseld without much trouble (except the reading which I was simply unlucky on ).

I'm going to take the 1-kyu this summer when they offer it (for the first time, I might add, in the summer), before they go making it harder in Dec after the level change.

[Doughnuts]

Originally Posted by iLney

Thank you very much.

PS: another question

There's a manga named:

君のいる町。 (the town where you came)

いる is a verb so I read it as "the town came you." Is this structure some kind of inversion?

And
町 and　街 can have the same reading and meaning. My question is: Can I interchange those or is there a much more preferable one between those two?

When you have a verb directly preceeding a noun, the preceeding clause describes the noun. You'd usually translate [verb] [noun] as something like [noun] which [verb]s.
いる here is 居る. Rather than came, would be "The town in which you are". The clause ”君のいる” is basically an adjective.

町 and 街 can be used interchangably (as far as I know) when read as まち, but when using other readings for compounds etc, they're not.

[whitepearl]

A quick question: does Japanese use formal forms of numbers the way Chinese does?

This link alludes to it: http://www.mandarintools.com/numbers.html

On checks and other financial documents in China, formal forms of numbers are used to prevent forgery (it is easy to alter a 1 to a 2, a 2 to a 3, a 3 to a 5, etc)...I was wondering if the Japanese do the same thing.

[Rembr]

Originally Posted by nikorai

whitepearl

Oh, I was writing that a few pages back. Thanks for your hard work of reading this thread. And thanks for the comment, appreciated.

Speaking of cutting things off. I'm a bit confused with the question. What exactly is needed? Recognizing parts of speech? Well I can imagine, it's like when I'm looking at chinese text and I can only guess what part is what. Though, sometimes I pick up the key words correctly. Why chinese, you ask? Well, when I'm watching anime, I often refer to chinese subs if I can't make out words. Chinese subs do help.

Back to the subject of cutting things, I'm translating stuff from iDOLM@STER at the moment. Please don't ask me if I'm sick. I am, I have health issues. But the quality of english sub for idolm@ster ova is so low and the bonus videos are missing in the last year release that I thought, perhaps I can as well make my own translation if nobody elso does.

So when I went to Iori's profile.

In the 3rd line I read as far as UTAGAU, but then stopped myself. Of course it is read UTA GA UMAKU, ... By the way, kanji in this case could be of much help but Iori chose to ignore them completely (though, she knows her name).

Oh, now that I took so much of your time, mind to help me with one phrase?
In Miki's profile she writes -

What's this 'あんまそうならないカンジ' mean? From the context I can guess that she doubts she'll have any success but will be glad if she does. The first part with '...hisshi ni naru no... nigate...' is clear to me. I see it as that she doesn't feel like working hard.

Rough gauge: 'I don't like going all-out on things, so preferably nothing too like that.'

[Kylaran]

Originally Posted by iLney

I have some questions:
私はよく妹と遊びました.

妹 = いもうと

So does it read "いもうと" or "いもうとと ?"
Why don't we use を　here? It sounds better too....

Don't try to second guess yourself by reasoning through this. If you know 妹 = いもうと, just plug it in, and then continue reading "to asobimashita".
Also, を is used when the object is actually an object. Someone else explained it like it sounded like you were "doing" your sister if you put in を, and that's true. Here's another way to look at it: "ごはんを　食べました。" Food (I) ate. Food is the object being eaten. 妹と遊びました "Sister (together) played." Sister isn't the object being played with. と and を don't actually carry the same meaning that we usually correlate to prepositions and such in English. They actually describe the relationship between words in a more "directional" way, rather than carrying inherent meaning on their own. Thus, は is not actually "is" in sentences like 私は＿＿＿です。 It denotes a "topic" to which the following name is attributed to.

Originally Posted by nikorai

whitepearl

What's this 'あんまそうならないカンジ' mean? From the context I can guess that she doubts she'll have any success but will be glad if she does. The first part with '...hisshi ni naru no... nigate...' is clear to me. I see it as that she doesn't feel like working hard.

あんまりそうみたいにならない感じ　<------ Does that help at all?

I don't even know if that's proper Japanese (I'm absolutely terrible at constructing sentences of my own), but that's the way I read あんまそうならないカンジ. In this case, そう refers to 必死になる.

Originally Posted by Rembr

Rough gauge: 'I don't like going all-out on things, so preferably nothing too like that.'

Something like that. "It would be nice if things don't get too hectic/crazy (or require me to go all-out, etc.), because I don't like it when that happens (I don't like doing that)." Basically the same thing.

---

Originally Posted by whitepearl

A quick question: does Japanese use formal forms of numbers the way Chinese does?

This link alludes to it: http://www.mandarintools.com/numbers.html

On checks and other financial documents in China, formal forms of numbers are used to prevent forgery (it is easy to alter a 1 to a 2, a 2 to a 3, a 3 to a 5, etc)...I was wondering if the Japanese do the same thing.

Yes, there is occasional use of the formal characters for letters. I'm not too sure about formal documents (since such hanzi are still used in Chinese documents), actually. I do know that you can see the older versions of these hanzi/kanji in settings where traditional script can be used (martial arts, tea ceremony, etc.), but I'm not sure whether official documents use it for the same purpose of discouraging forgery. Perhaps they're used more for aesthetics now.

[nikorai]

Rembr-san, Kylaran-san,

Rough gauge: 'I don't like going all-out on things, so preferably nothing too like that.'

Something like that. "It would be nice if things don't get too hectic/crazy (or require me to go all-out, etc.), because I don't like it when that happens (I don't like doing that)." Basically the same thing.

あんまりそうみたいにならない感じ　<------ Does that help at all?

So, that's how the phrase should look like, I see.
Yeah, that makes sense. Thanks a lot for your help with that. I'll use the suggested translation, then. Oh, there's so much for me to learn in japanese! Phrases like that leave me confused. 勉強がんばらなきゃ。