2012-10-30, 16:22 | Link #31041 | ||
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Join Date: Aug 2011
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Interesting enough all we get as comeback is that George says he won't let someone bully his friends. Is even less of a proof than saying that Kanon was seen by Jessica's friends. So it's either: - those goats didn't check if there was proof of Kanon & Shannon's existence - George & Jessica countered with the first thing that came to their mind Quote:
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2012-10-30, 16:55 | Link #31042 | |
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Join Date: Sep 2010
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The goats said Shannon was an illusion, that George was an anti-social shut-in, and that their love was not genuine. Of these points, George only addressed the one about him personally, saying something like "I was anti-social, but I DID have confrontations to help people who were friendly to me", something like that. Quibbles, yes, but to me it seemed again like Ryu just dodging having to answer for something. For example, goats attack Shannon on the idea that she only approached George for his money (having apparently dropped the accusation that she just didn't exist AT ALL), and her response is "I wrote letters". He attacked again with "You can lie in a letter", and her response to beat him was essentially "Dude, stop being a jerk." The entire Golden Land battle is like that ... it's like, this weird point in the narrative where yeah, I'm enjoying the epic music and cool fight scene, but it's kind of jarring to see the humans talking entirely out of their Meta-asses to defend themselves. I was SOOOOOO anxious to see if Ghoda would have a moment to shine in there. Alas, I dreamed too big. To go further, c'mon, not all of the fighting stayed in the abstract. Almost all of the confrontations Erika gets in are just "cool fighting", so, let's not forget Ryu's love of shonen-style funsies. "At least I remember to tie my shoes!", c'mon guys. |
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2012-10-30, 18:46 | Link #31043 | |
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Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Buffer overflow
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Battler: "I attack with a roundhouse kick to your face. How do you respond?" Erika: "I...was never there to begin with." Battler: "............" Erika: "I was over here." Battler: "Rosa anticipated that you would try to dodge, so she was able to spot you quickly and fired." Erika: "I was never there to begin with either." Battler: "...Seriously?" ...Basically, Erika never anticipates her opponent or sets up plans ahead of time. She just makes a lame excuse afterwards.
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2012-10-30, 21:04 | Link #31044 | ||
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2012-10-31, 04:01 | Link #31045 | ||
Goat
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Gnawing away at Rokkenjima
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The whole point is, again, it's a cat box. The goats were trying to eliminate the concepts of the "good versions" of the people in the box using evidence from outside of the box, but those "good version" concepts were still pretty tenacious. They were difficult to completely destroy because there was still some out-of-the-box evidence here and there testifying to their "goodness". That was my take on it, anyway. Quote:
Or did people go to and from the island another way? |
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2012-10-31, 09:17 | Link #31046 |
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There would've been people already on the island, and in theory Krauss had a boat of his own. It's possible that someone could've been living there who never left, or who arrived some other time, or who left some other way. Kawabata would be able to tell them everyone he took to or from the island over the past few weeks, but the police can't be absolutely certain that the only people on the islands are the ones Kawabata could account for.
This is especially true if he doesn't ever remember taking Kanon. Actually, Kawabata would be a huge thorn in a Shkanon Prime scenario, as there's no way for Yasu to travel both to and from the island as Shannon and Kanon. She could go as one and come back as the other, but she'd have to then go back as the other or he's going to get suspicious. So for Shkanon-in-reality to work all that well, either Shannon or Kanon (or both of course) would have to be considered on-duty at all times. EDIT: Oh, and Kawabata happens to know there's a second port on the island which he hasn't been to in many years, so he'd actually be one of the people least certain about whether anyone else could've come or gone from the island without his boat, because he knows there's somewhere else a boat could leave from.
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2012-11-01, 07:25 | Link #31048 | ||
Goat
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Gnawing away at Rokkenjima
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But, well, just the fact that he knows of the other port and had kept it a secret for so many years already means that he'd been bribed or something. Given that, I wonder what he told the police after the incident, and what he might not have. |
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2012-11-01, 08:43 | Link #31049 | |
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Still, if anything, he would probably be the one to find Eva's discovery at the back side of the island curious. He hasn't been there in over a decade. What was she doing there? And why wasn't anybody else there? Whether he would talk about it is another question. He seemed very reluctant to even bring the subject up to anyone but Ange. But would he talk to police? It'd be hard to say, because Kuwadorian would be public knowledge regardless of whether he talked about it or not. It's possible he just spoke strictly about his work taking people to the main port and left out entirely his 50s and 60s activities. The pressure on him may be what caused him to be so standoffish about it until Ange convinced him of who she was. I don't think he was bribed recently however; maybe back in the 60s by Kinzo, but probably not recently. It's questionable, I think, whether anyone in 1986 other than Genji/Kumasawa (Yasu included; why would Yasu know this?) knew about his activities in the 50s/60s at all.
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2012-11-01, 10:43 | Link #31050 |
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Join Date: Jul 2012
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By the way, what's the deal of Ryukishi implying the use of the fairy tale of Hänsel and Gretel in the story?
EG: Their father was in second marriage with a wife who was a schemer and versions exist where she is 1 - Just their stepmother 2 - Their biological mother Ange = Gretel She tried to get rid of the kids so that she and her husband have the money the have for themselves and is implied to be the Witch in the Story as when the Witch died so did their mother. |
2012-11-01, 14:21 | Link #31051 | |
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Join Date: Jul 2011
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Taking a risk at sounding like KNM, I wonder if Kyrie Theory was the Theory we were supposed to find. It's the truth that Eva tried hiding from Ange. It's the truth that Yasu tried hiding from Battler. Even still, the motive seems to be even weaker than the Yasutrice theory. But we do have: Kyrie's and Rudolf's heads were completely smashed in EP1. They could have been anything or anyone. The identity of all victims were guaranteed, but just leaving some bloody clothes around doesn't mean that a body was inside of them. I may be able to use a Kyrie Culprit Theory for EP2. All it said was "regardless if they were living or dead, six people definitely went through this door." It doesn't say anything about whether or not the six people at the table are dead or alive. Yasu may be an accomplice. Or when Yasu found out that Jessica was killed, and that Battler's parents killed her, Yasu killed her Kanon personality. However at that time, Yasu still had the master key. But when Beato announced in red during the 4-6 twilights that "there are only 5 master keys" she never said that each servant was holding them. It's possible that Kyrie took "Kanon"'s key and killed George, Gohda, and Shannon. EP3: Rudolf was the one who "found" the key on Shannon's body. He really had it the whole time.
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2012-11-01, 14:28 | Link #31052 |
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Again though, you run into problems both of motive and MO. Why was Kyrie doing it? And if she was, why did she use the methods she did (methods which appear to be at odds with the LOL SHOOTING SPREE theory presented in ep7)? What did she and Rudolf know about the explosion, if anything? If they didn't know, how did they expect to get away with it? When did this plan come up? Was it before they knew about the witch's game or was it made up on the spot once that factor came into play? What would they have done if it hadn't? Could Kyrie have had any sort of forewarning (the letter from Battler?)?
As always, motive creates the biggest problem. The only beef we know about is her hatred for Asumu, who (1) isn't an Ushiromiya by birth and wasn't when she wronged Kyrie and (2) is long dead. It'd be hard to generalize her desire to kill Asumu to a desire to kill just anyone, especially since Kyrie was almost maddeningly specific in hating Asumu in particular.
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2012-11-01, 15:05 | Link #31054 |
Artist
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Yesterday!
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Seriously don't have time to reply to earlier messages but will whenever I do find it as far as the whole Shkanon stuff is concerned.
Still I wanted to say this : what kind of motives are you looking for? "Parasites made them do it", "they had a really horrible life", "they're nuts and or/melodramatic" or "they are total jerks". I'm honestly asking, what kind of motive would be satisfying to you all, because I personally cannot see any really satisfying motive within the realm of mystery. I don't mean acceptable, I mean something that would satisfy most fans and Will's "heart" thing. |
2012-11-01, 15:07 | Link #31055 | |
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Join Date: Jul 2012
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Well there is alot that can be interpreted from the Tale.
Gretel turned into a servant of the witch while Hänsel was trapped into a cage by her as the witch was cannibalistic.(Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't Beatrice force Rosa to eat the remains of her family?) Hänsel and Gretel after killing the witch came across a large area of water, unable to cross it until a white duck came along and carried them over. Another version mentions how it was a white bird that showed them the way home, the same bird that brought them to the witch, while the other birds were eating away the crumbs spread by them to find their way home. What if those birds refer to the family as in look the emblem. There is also the mention that the witch had quite the treasures in her house. "Kinzo told me there are wolves in the forest." Wilhelm Grimm mentioned in 1856 that there is also a Wolf with the Witch. The father of the 2 also faked the sound of the knocks he makes when cutting down a tree by binding an branch to a tree in combination with the wind. Wilhelm also mentioned that the Witch was rather sharp as she was like a Animal in noticing people getting close. Hans Jörg Uther mentions how the story is a polarization between good and evil supported by opposites. Parental and Witchhouse. Mother and Witch. Seperation and Reunion. He also mentioned how the children ascend from the dead that was supposed to be their fate but that fate was cast upon the mother/witch. Quote:
Same applies for the tale as money is the reason why they abandonded the kids. Rest of course is hard to explain, though ever since seeing the tale I'm just saying that Kyrie might be the mastermind. I point again to her Chessboard logic and the roles of Bishops. They are called Bishops because during Medieval times they were highly manipulative,setting the norms and laws with their movement pattern symbolizing their snake like movements and actions in addition that Bishops are aka called Hunters. I'm saying, Kyrie plays a major role somehow having manipulated alot of events and might be THE direct opposer to Yasu in terms of killing. Yasu started the Witch Game, Kyrie intended to use it for her own advantage.Rudolf being a pawn for her. Hence how he suspected his death in EP 1. They DID knew something. I'm going with: Kyrie is the true mastermind having manipulated the events or simply used the Witch Game for herself. Last edited by Kiltias; 2012-11-01 at 15:31. |
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2012-11-01, 15:47 | Link #31056 | ||||
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Join Date: Sep 2010
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I guess I meant moreso their kind of ... cheerful indifference towards the fact they were exploded to death. Quote:
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The six people were already dead by the time they were discovered! All were killed by other people! All six were genuine victims, and did not take part in a mutual murder! |
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2012-11-01, 21:28 | Link #31057 | ||
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Join Date: Jul 2012
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Seeing that the mother of Hänsel and Gretel is named as their biological but in other version their stepmother, and being displayed as a schemer that is badly out for money to the point of sacrificing the kids is more than enough reason to look into. Especially when we have several indications of Kyrie being deep in this, question is just how much. Though I'm not gonna argue about Kyrie being the sole person part for Battler and Maria wearing a Cross making them White,Black and Red which are just by chance the actual colours of Chess Pieces. Then again it might indicate Kyrie is deeply religious as it also looks a tad like the Christian Flag in addition that her name also refers to God/Lord. Quote:
Last edited by Kiltias; 2012-11-01 at 21:55. |
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2012-11-02, 07:52 | Link #31060 | |
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Join Date: Nov 2011
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I think people would like Yasutrice a lot more if the motive was presented as something like this (as EP4 seemed to be leading to), rather than focusing on her conflicting love for three different people which is really not a motive for mass murder by any stretch of the imagination. |
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