Character Discussion - Kallen

[Ring]

Originally Posted by Var

The same can be said for C.C./CChi.

Uh, ok? So all the development C.C. has had to this point would not be wasted even if Lelouch stays single. I don't disagree with that. My second choice for this series is currently for him to stay single anyway with Shirley formerly first.

[Tokkan]

You know, if Kallen's the one to bring the true Lelouch to the surface as we're speculating, it would certainly give her a huge jump in chances at Lelouch. Though, Lelouch staying single is practically the only thing plausible considering Lelouch doesn't even realise what romantic feelings are.

[Var]

Originally Posted by Ring

Uh, ok? So all the development C.C. has had to this point would not be wasted even if Lelouch stays single. I don't disagree with that. My second choice for this series is currently for him to stay single anyway with Shirley formerly first.

My point is that, what you said, is also true for C.C. fans. I am not saying it is actually true, much like how I do not believe that Kallen's role would be wasted if she doesn't get it on with Lelouch. On the overall, simply, Kallen's role right now is a major one, and can lead to many things.

[Vorhamus]

People people, come on now, let us face it; Code Geass is unpredictable. Not completely, but mostly. We can never expect to C.C recover her memories, neither expect for the Black Knight's victory. I don't like to create giant theories of what will happen, as I would be proven wrong in the future. Who knows if Diethard and Ougi have a fight? Who knows if Kallen will believe in Suzaku, and then ask Lelouch, and he being positive that the fault was his?

Who knows if Lelouch will ever even come to admit his lies, and tell the truth? The only person he entrusted the truth with was C.C. Now that she is gone, he is left with Kallen, or what C.C is now. If she miraclously recovers herself, then Lelouch will end up with her. But who am I to say this? The most unpredictable anime I've ever watched and I say I know something?

Bah...

[Ring]

Originally Posted by Var

My point is that, what you said, is also true for C.C. fans. I am not saying it is actually true, much like how I do not believe that Kallen's role would be wasted if she doesn't get it on with Lelouch. On the overall, simply, Kallen's role right now is a major one, and can lead to many things.

I see, so you were saying that to the general public. Well then, fans of romance for their characters aren't all that different in this perspective. Although you don't view it as wasted, it's not as satisfying. Not 'having your cake (her development this season) and eating it (Lelouch x Kallen)' kind of thing. It's not as extreme as thinking it was all wasted, just a (slight) disappoint factor. That would apply for some C.C. fans, although not precisely because she hasn't received the same amount of focus as Kallen this season.

She has shifted back to a major player, but you never know what kind of twists lie ahead considering what has happened so far. I also think that there are lot of possibilities.

Originally Posted by Vorhamus

People people, come on now, let us face it; Code Geass is unpredictable. Not completely, but mostly. We can never expect to C.C recover her memories, neither expect for the Black Knight's victory. I don't like to create giant theories of what will happen, as I would be proven wrong in the future. Who knows if Diethard and Ougi have a fight? Who knows if Kallen will believe in Suzaku, and then ask Lelouch, and he being positive that the fault was his?

Who knows if Lelouch will ever even come to admit his lies, and tell the truth? The only person he entrusted the truth with was C.C. Now that she is gone, he is left with Kallen, or what C.C is now. If she miraclously recovers herself, then Lelouch will end up with her. But who am I to say this? The most unpredictable anime I've ever watched and I say I know something?

Bah...

The Code Geass style of twists from the S1 is definitely here in S2. In fact, if there were absolutely no leaks in S1 for Euphie, poor choice of words in the TV summary for Shirley, and the whole Korean blog spoilers, there would have been more of a surprise factor (at least by those who take the risk of reading spoilers). Code Geass certainly has a lot of leaks. I mean even the ending part of Episode 3 got uploaded to the web well before the airing date. When those Korean blog spoilers came out, people had a hard time digesting it. They were viewed as fake outlandish speculation. The writers had the right idea in the twists though. It just got leaked.

[Var]

Originally Posted by Ring

I see, so you were saying that to the general public. Well then, fans of romance for their characters aren't all that different in this perspective. Although you don't view it as wasted, it's not as satisfying. Not 'having your cake (her development this season) and eating it (Lelouch x Kallen)' kind of thing. It's not as extreme as thinking it was all wasted, just a (slight) disappoint factor. That would apply for some C.C. fans, although not precisely because she hasn't received the same amount of focus as Kallen this season.

From experience (read: the people that I know who watch the show but do not give two dimes and a cent about romance or what not, as in do not visit forums), the general public just wants to be entertained. Fans of pairings, such as myself, want to have their cake and eviscerate it, too. So far, they've given me the cake and have been sharpening my Req.7 Sephis Axe. (Cookie to whoever gets the game reference.)

But that is not what this discussion is really about. Kallen's development, the cake, has been focused on Lelouch and the real him. We then have Ep.15 blatantly telling us what it is that Lelouch has wished for all along. If she isn't the one to grant his wish, I'd be really disappointed as to what the heck the point of the cake was. It's not me asking for a pairing, as her granting his wish doesn't mean he has to fall in love with her or vise-versa, (but it would be a nice boost to my adrenaline to use Eviscerate on the cake, game reference again) it would simply be the most logical conclusion to her development concerning Lelouch. Otherwise, really, what would have been the point?

About wasting time or not, as I said, if they wanted her to fail, they really did not need to spend 17 episodes building it up. Shirley is a prime example.

[demon_god04]

@ Var

*puts money on Guild Wars*

To be fair though Shirley was building up from the first season up until she had the mind wipe from Charles.

[Var]

Originally Posted by demon_god04

@ Var

*puts money on Guild Wars*

To be fair though Shirley was building up from the first season up until she had the mind wipe from Charles.

Correct.

As for Shirley, your point is valid on some level, but Shirley's development was more appropriately ended with Mao, not Charles. And, the entire bit about her wanting to know Lelouch only really appeared in Episode 13, when she died. The development before that, and before Orange, was on Shirley's infatuation with a lie. Kallen had the same development in Season 1, and like Shirley's understanding, it came crashing down.

[demon_god04]

Originally Posted by Var

As for Shirley, your point is valid on some level, but Shirley's development was more appropriately ended with Mao, not Charles. And, the entire bit about her wanting to know Lelouch only really appeared in Episode 13, when she died. The development before that, and before Orange, was on Shirley's infatuation with a lie. Kallen had the same development in Season 1, and like Shirley's understanding, it came crashing down.

Shirley had a sort of second wind after Leouch's geass with her finding her own letter as she started trying to piece together the situation with Lelouch and herself and him being Zero. Which culminated in her outburst when Kallen revealed herself to the Student Council but went nowhere due to Charles' convenient plot geass to bring back Ashford for Lelouch's foray into R2.

[Var]

Originally Posted by demon_god04

Shirley had a sort of second wind after Leouch's geass with her finding her own letter as she started trying to piece together the situation with Lelouch and herself and him being Zero. Which culminated in her outburst when Kallen revealed herself to the Student Council but went nowhere due to Charles' convenient plot geass to bring back Ashford for Lelouch's foray into R2.

Fair enough. But I think the Geassing by Lelouch, the initial one, was what sealed the deal, so to speak. Every time she came close to discovering the other faces of Lelouch, she was smacked down by the plot. Even then, though, she's always been limited to the two faces of Lelouch.

To be frank, though, this has no real bearing on what I said. Her S2 development was on one of Lelouch's fake faces, and the moment that she actually discovered the reality and tried to understand it, she was killed. It's not really comparable to roughly 17 episode with scattered development towards it.

[Ring]

Originally Posted by Var

From experience (read: the people that I know who watch the show but do not give two dimes and a cent about romance or what not, as in do not visit forums), the general public just wants to be entertained. Fans of pairings, such as myself, want to have their cake and eviscerate it, too. So far, they've given me the cake and have been sharpening my Req.7 Sephis Axe. (Cookie to whoever gets the game reference.)

But that is not what this discussion is really about. Kallen's development, the cake, has been focused on Lelouch and the real him. We then have Ep.15 blatantly telling us what it is that Lelouch has wished for all along. If she isn't the one to grant his wish, I'd be really disappointed as to what the heck the point of the cake was. It's not me asking for a pairing, as her granting his wish doesn't mean he has to fall in love with her or vise-versa, (but it would be a nice boost to my adrenaline to use Eviscerate on the cake, game reference again) it would simply be the most logical conclusion to her development concerning Lelouch. Otherwise, really, what would have been the point?

About wasting time or not, as I said, if they wanted her to fail, they really did not need to spend 17 episodes building it up. Shirley is a prime example.

I think there are some misunderstandings. I didn't mean "general public" as in fans who don't visit this forum and only watch it for fun. I meant that as in it was "generally directed at C.C. fans."

Well, all these points is basically an expansion of what I originally talked about. You include Lelouch's wish along with the development of her seeing Lelouch's real personality, but as you said, it doesn't necessarily mean it's romantic. This is a wish that can be accomplished as a friend. Suzaku pretty much was going along that road before it got interrupted. The most logical conclusions have already been nailed down: She will see his true face, she won't think strongly about betrayal, and she'll help him. The romantic part is something that is being hoped to be part of this, but it's not necessarily logically needed to happen. The other things should happen for it to be logical.

As for Shirley, this is a point that I already know. I already knew it wouldn't be the case in S2 once it got into gears. Although there a few moments besides Episode 12 and 13 (Episode 3: Lelouch feeling regret for her memories along with the student council), it's really wasn't much. Ironically, she was killed because she met one of the products of Lelouch's lies. (Rollo) Kallen on the other hand met the product of Lelouch's truth. (Nunnally)

I didn't say anything about her failing. If you took my wording of "twists" as specifically her failing, then you are going for more than what I was thinking of.

If you were referring to this when you're talking about wasting time or not: "It's not as extreme as thinking it was all wasted, just a (slight) disappoint factor." I meant that if she doesn't end up with Lelouch, you wouldn't feel it was wasted, only slightly disappointed/disappointed because the pairing didn't happen. You had the cake (all that development), but as a fan of this pairing, not being eating that cake would be a downer.

[Var]

Originally Posted by Ring

I think there are some misunderstandings. I didn't mean "general public" as in fans who don't visit this forum and only watch it for fun. I meant that as in it was "generally directed at C.C. fans."

Seems like it.

Originally Posted by Ring

Well, all these points is basically an expansion of what I originally talked about. You include Lelouch's wish along with the development of her seeing Lelouch's real personality, but as you said, it doesn't necessarily mean it's romantic. This is a wish that can be accomplished as a friend. Suzaku pretty much was going along that road before it got interrupted. The most logical conclusions have already been nailed down: She will see his true face, she won't think strongly about betrayal, and she'll help him. The romantic part is something that is being hoped to be part of this, but it's not necessarily logically needed to happen. The other things should happen for it to be logical.

I also think you misunderstood me. My point was that Kallen granting/completing Lelouch's wish to be understood for the real him, was the logical conclusion to her development. Not the pairing. That is just an addition, as I said, getting ones cake and being able to eviscerate it. As for whether or not that will fall under romantic pretenses or just 'friends', is really a toss up as there have been arguable romantic developments at least on Kallen's part. Whereas, Suzaku has never really been aiming to get Lelouch in the sac.

Originally Posted by Ring

As for Shirley, this is a point that I already know. I already knew it wouldn't be the case in S2 once it got into gears. Although there a few moments besides Episode 12 and 13 (Episode 3: Lelouch feeling regret for her memories along with the student council), it's really wasn't much. Ironically, she was killed because she met one of the products of Lelouch's lies. (Rollo) Kallen on the other hand met the product of Lelouch's truth. (Nunnally)

That is, actually, a very good point about discovering lies and truths, and one I missed.

Originally Posted by Ring

I didn't say anything about her failing. If you took my wording of "twists" as specifically her failing, then you are going for more than what I was thinking of.

My misunderstanding then.

Originally Posted by Ring

If you were referring to this when you're talking about wasting time or not: "It's not as extreme as thinking it was all wasted, just a (slight) disappoint factor." I meant that if she doesn't end up with Lelouch, you wouldn't feel it was wasted, only slightly disappointed/disappointed because the pairing didn't happen. You had the cake (all that development), but as a fan of this pairing, not being eating that cake is a downer.

No, no, the wasting time was in relation to the prospect of Kallen failing to see the real Lelouch. The romance part is more the topping to the cake and the subsequent visceral cutting of it, not the actual cake.

[bladeofdarkness]

since you were both talking about the "cake"
and about the end of kallens development being her abllity to see past "the lie"
could it be that maybe : "the cake is a lie" (couldnt resist)

[Ring]

Originally Posted by Var

Seems like it.



I also think you misunderstood me. My point was that Kallen granting/completing Lelouch's wish to be understood for the real him, was the logical conclusion to her development. Not the pairing. That is just an addition, as I said, getting ones cake and being able to eviscerate it. As for whether or not that will fall under romantic pretenses or just 'friends', is really a toss up as there have been arguable romantic developments at least on Kallen's part. Whereas, Suzaku has never really been aiming to get Lelouch in the sac.



That is, actually, a very good point about discovering lies and truths, and one I missed.



My misunderstanding then.



No, no, the wasting time was in relation to the prospect of Kallen failing to see the real Lelouch. The romance part is more the topping to the cake and the subsequent visceral cutting of it, not the actual cake.

Ah, I see what you were saying now. Well, no one's perfect so mistakes are bound to be made.

[Var]

Originally Posted by Ring

Ah, I see what you were saying now. Well, no one's perfect so mistakes are bound to be made.

Oh, good, now that we've made it past that hurdle... damn I was enjoying having an intelligent discussion for once. Well, now that we've passed the realm of gritty realism, let's discuss the romantic undertones bound to (read: maybe will) happen when Kallen saves Lelouch.

[Witacume]

Originally Posted by Var

Oh, good, now that we've made it past that hurdle... damn I was enjoying having an intelligent discussion for once. Well, now that we've passed the realm of gritty realism, let's discuss the romantic undertones bound to (read: maybe will) happen when Kallen saves Lelouch.

I already told you var my theory!

Spoiler for theory for ep 20:

Mirroring the Confession that Euphemia did to Suzaku Kallen will confess to Lelouch and save him from his despair! A little physical action will ensue afterwards

[bladeofdarkness]

Originally Posted by Var

Oh, good, now that we've made it past that hurdle... damn I was enjoying having an intelligent discussion for once. Well, now that we've passed the realm of gritty realism, let's discuss the romantic undertones bound to (read: maybe will) happen when Kallen saves Lelouch.

since last season ended with kallen rejecting lulu (running away) once she found out who he "really" was under the mask of zero
and this season so far has been process of her coming to grasp who he really is under the mask of lelouch
her finally excepting him once she finds out who he really truly is will be a full circle

[Skellington2612]

Originally Posted by Witacume

I already told you var my theory!

Spoiler for theory for ep 20:

Mirroring the Confession that Euphemia did to Suzaku Kallen will confess to Lelouch and save him from his despair! A little physical action will ensue afterwards

Something tell that will be the other way around, like he confessing her... I don´t know what he would tell... It doesn´t have to be a love confession... But the spoilers says he will be the one saying the words... but it could be any words...
If there are feelings more than friends between these two... first they have to recognise them... we haven´t seen any of them in conflict about their feelings like Shirley for example...
So whatever happens to make Kallen stay at his side could something about friendship and not necessarily more than that... but still the fans (im one of them) hope it´s something else...
I hope it´s not parallel with Euphie/Suzaku because that would mean one of them has to die...

[Witacume]

Originally Posted by Skellington2612

Something tell that will be the other way around, like he confessing her... I don´t know what he would tell... It doesn´t have to be a love confession... But the spoilers says he will be the one saying the words... but it could be any words...
If there are feelings more than friends between these two... first they have to recognise them... we haven´t seen any of them in conflict about their feelings like Shirley for example...
So whatever happens to make Kallen stay at his side could something about friendship and not necessarily more than that... but still the fans (im one of them) hope it´s something else...
I hope it´s not parallel with Euphie/Suzaku because that would mean one of them has to die...

well actually it be good as so far the Parellel have been there but with a tweak with them all for instance. in episode 15 for CC. Much is reveal about her but she kills her contract. While in episode 15 of r2 much is reveal but this time she does not kill her contract instead gets rerolled.

[bladeofdarkness]

in ep 20 of r1 suzaku was forced to confront his past and reach the deceion that he gives up his title as euphies knight becouse he's not worthy
he then gets talked into going on a one way mission
euphies talk is what breaks him out of his state of self destraction and gives him a new reason to live (as well as a much better dispostion,which kallen notes of in ep 21)
from the looks of it lulu is heading to a similer confrention with his actions and lies in the past (as well as losing the one true thing he had)
what ever kallen plays in breaking him out of it would have to be even more powerfull then what euphie did since
a)lulu is much more complax then suzaku was at that point
b) lulu will be losing much more (basiclly everything)
c)kallen would be the only one there for him period (no one else would want anything to do with him at that point)

so what ever happens between them would have to be huge (in terms of impact, not action)