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Old 2014-11-08, 17:29   Link #501
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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In the end, Tolkein himself retconned many events of The Hobbit to allow it to fit the LotR story. I mean theoretically Legolas didn't exist until LotR was written, but there was no reason why he wouldn't be around back then.
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Old 2014-11-08, 22:08   Link #502
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Point taken about studios demanding a romance subplot to appeal to teenage girls. Still, it could have been executed better. Some of the scenes were alright ('what if I have something down my trousers' drew a chuckle), but some were just-ugh. Shining elf hallucination? Really? Tauriel using athelas? Really?

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Originally Posted by Magin View Post
So I hate to ask... but since I've never read the Hobbit, just how much was changed for the movie? Obviously the elf-dwarf romance should be non-existent, and I guess even Legolas shouldn't be anywhere in here.

However, I liked the second movie because I'm going to have to agree with what was said about the first one- it had too much of Two Towers walking syndrome (seriously, at points the Hobbit: Unexpected Journey felt like it was just dragging along)... but if much of what was added isn't in the book, how dry will the book itself be?
The trilogy was extended to include canonical events from outside the Hobbit, and some of the things that were mentioned in passing were expanded on, like the stone giants fighting, the goblins, Rivendell, Mirkwood, etc.

In addition to what everyone else said, the characters' personalities were changed somewhat as well. Few of the dwarves were described. Thorin is supposed to be really old (the oldest, IIRC), and we get the impression that he's extremely self-important. He was my least favorite character, so it was painful seeing him turned into a sympathetic character in the first two movies. Fili and Kili are also supposed to be the two youngest. Changing Thorin's age makes sense with how they changed his character. They probably did it to Ori to have another character type to work with.

Beorn is not supposed to be a Native American rip-off (that was the impression I got from his scene) but very temperamental, so much so that they have to resort to trolling him into giving them lodging.

I'm not opposed to change, and I'm definitely not watching the movies for a word-for-word adaptation. Making it fit with the LotR lore, giving the dwarves their own personalities and adding the action sequences made the movies more enjoyable, but some of the changes were gratuitous. I recommend reading the book, maybe after the trilogy ends, for comparison. It's a fun, lighthearted read and should only take a couple hours. (Just remember it's a children's book ).

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Old 2014-12-22, 15:49   Link #503
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Aw, that was a lovely ending, although the battle itself kind of ended a little too abruptly, though I guess it's supposed to take the backseat.
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Old 2014-12-23, 18:55   Link #504
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Quote:
Beorn is not supposed to be a Native American rip-off (that was the impression I got from his scene) but very temperamental, so much so that they have to resort to trolling him into giving them lodging.
Beorn to me always seemed like... maybe not native american... but someone who lived in the wilds enough and had kinda 'gone native' due to his nature or curse or whatever. Or some cross between russian/scandinavian wilds-men/barbarians. Hell I'm sure in the books he was described as half bear even when in human form. Was there really a lot of native american-isms with him? TBH I can't remember, I don't think I was paying that close attention.
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Old 2014-12-23, 22:40   Link #505
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Originally Posted by Mr Hat and Clogs View Post
Beorn to me always seemed like... maybe not native american... but someone who lived in the wilds enough and had kinda 'gone native' due to his nature or curse or whatever. Or some cross between russian/scandinavian wilds-men/barbarians. Hell I'm sure in the books he was described as half bear even when in human form. Was there really a lot of native american-isms with him? TBH I can't remember, I don't think I was paying that close attention.
My interpretation of Beorn was like an easily-angered, reclusive woodsman. One of those rough and tough gruff guys on the outside, preferring to live in isolation, but willing to put up with others now and then depending on whether or not he thinks they're tolerable enough. I think your 'gone native' and 'half bear' comments are pretty apt descriptions. There wasn't anything in the book that made him seem Native American, unless all vegetarians are secretly Native American.
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Old 2014-12-24, 03:48   Link #506
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The final instalment is okay although there are some inaccuracy based on the book. The battle of five armies is very important in winning the war of the rings. The significance are:

1. It removed the dragon that might be convinced by sauron to fight for him.
2. Reduced the number of enemies from Mt. Gundabad and other places.
3. Create another front for the enemy. Dale and Erebor.
4. Dale were remade to withstand fires which made it harder to be invaded.
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Old 2014-12-24, 13:00   Link #507
Renegade334
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Maybe the term/image BPD Renegade was looking for was the Noble Savage, though technically Movie!Beorn was already part of a civilization before Azog came and turned him into the last member of his people. He's more of a jaded person who prefers solitude rather than someone who tries to live in communion with Nature.

Anyway, I was surprised by the actual inclusion of were-worms (which were only cited once -and quite vaguely, never hinting to their enormous size- in The Hobbit) and how big the Olog-hai/mountain trolls were portrayed. They were, IMHO, much larger than in LotR, especially the catapult-bearing ones...though I do remember the Morannon trolls being exceptionally imposing, so it's possible it's that specific breed that was used, rather than the smaller one used to raid Minas Tirith. I also thought at first that the were-worms were the "nameless things" (as described by Gandalf in the Two Towers, when he recounts his battle with Durin's Bane), which gnaw at the deepest parts of the world, though I was pretty much certain he also said that "even Sauron knows them not"...and then I realized that the official computer games had expanded the Middle-Earth bestiary quite a bit and Jackson got some inspiration from there (the were-worms suspiciously look like the worm-like creatures in his King Kong adaptation, btw).

I was also a bit confused about the part concerning the White Gems of Lasgalen part, which rang no bell in my memory. Since I have not read the books by Christopher Tolkien compounding and analyzing JRRT's massive amount of oft-unfinished notes, I could still be mistaken.

There are, however, some rumors on the Internet (probably a movie spoiler given to some magazine and then repeated from one blog to another) that the gems were actually a wedding gift for Thranduil's deceased wife (which explains why the elven king is enraged at the thought of the Dwarves keeping them hostage), but I felt Jackson could've fleshed this out a little better (maybe he'll do so in the Extended version, who knows?), as it felt like a vague attempt to explain why Thranduil felt compelled to march with his army on Erebor, aside from merely asking compensation for what Thrór's greed brought to the entire region (the darkening and poisoning of Mirkwood, the destruction of Dale, etc).

Well, there is also the fact that the Silvan Elves of Mirkwood were kin to the Sindar of Doriath and, after what happened to Menegroth, this was another insult+injury Thranduil could not let slide.
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Last edited by Renegade334; 2014-12-24 at 13:32.
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Old 2014-12-24, 16:12   Link #508
Ghiest Cid
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I could not help to view Thranduil as a tsundere. Extended editions is the reason I have not bought a copy of the three. About those worms, why didn't they use it to attack the elves,dwarves etc.?
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Old 2014-12-24, 16:33   Link #509
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^-- Maybe they're like the giant sandworms in Frank Herbert's Dune: you can't tame them (their primitive/restricted intelligence may be a factor in this), merely influence where they're going.
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Old 2014-12-25, 05:29   Link #510
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Watched the final part of the Hobbit yesterday, so here's my impression:

- too much padding. Having the master of Laketown drown in his gold is one thing, watching his sidekick take up ten minutes of useless filler is another.

- the battle of the five armies...Thorin was supposed to be clad in gold armor and actually lead all of the allied forces as a general but instead he was limited to a morale-boosting sortie, he should be fighting with an axe, plus his final fight was dragged (and he should have passed away on his deathbed after the battle, not mid-war).
Not to mention, he never got the arkenstone! What the hell is up with that, seriously... Normally, the Arkenstone was placed upon Thorin's chest within his tomb deep under the Lonely Mountain, and so was returned to the earth at last. In the movie, we don't get to see what happened to it.

- speaking of things that never were, Balin's visit to Bilbo was also omitted...the one that recounts everyone's fate after the war.

- The pyramid-head who breached the city walls. That scene was funny as hell, followed by the (not really) human bridge another troll made later

- A friend of mine complained about Legolas jumping on falling stones, saying it was impossible. I say, Legolas is an elf, he can totally use fey step to ignore difficult terrain! Now, being proficient in longbow, straight sword AND dual wielding daggers is another issue...

- Best scene of the movie: Thranduil getting a multikill on the antlers of his reindeer.

- Worst scene of the movie: Gandalf lighting up after Thorin died. Then everyone cracks up. Hilarious....not.

Final rating: 7/10. Definitely worth watching for the epic battle fans, though it will drag at certain points.
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Old 2014-12-25, 05:54   Link #511
Ghiest Cid
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kafriel View Post
Watched the final part of the Hobbit yesterday, so here's my impression:

- too much padding. Having the master of Laketown drown in his gold is one thing, watching his sidekick take up ten minutes of useless filler is another.

- the battle of the five armies...Thorin was supposed to be clad in gold armor and actually lead all of the allied forces as a general but instead he was limited to a morale-boosting sortie, he should be fighting with an axe, plus his final fight was dragged (and he should have passed away on his deathbed after the battle, not mid-war).
Not to mention, he never got the arkenstone! What the hell is up with that, seriously... Normally, the Arkenstone was placed upon Thorin's chest within his tomb deep under the Lonely Mountain, and so was returned to the earth at last. In the movie, we don't get to see what happened to it.

- speaking of things that never were, Balin's visit to Bilbo was also omitted...the one that recounts everyone's fate after the war.

- The pyramid-head who breached the city walls. That scene was funny as hell, followed by the (not really) human bridge another troll made later

- A friend of mine complained about Legolas jumping on falling stones, saying it was impossible. I say, Legolas is an elf, he can totally use fey step to ignore difficult terrain! Now, being proficient in longbow, straight sword AND dual wielding daggers is another issue...

- Best scene of the movie: Thranduil getting a multikill on the antlers of his reindeer.

- Worst scene of the movie: Gandalf lighting up after Thorin died. Then everyone cracks up. Hilarious....not.

Final rating: 7/10. Definitely worth watching for the epic battle fans, though it will drag at certain points.
Tolkien had said that elves is weightless. Also all the strength of the current enemy is nothing compare to the second age where balrogs and dragons larger than smaug. Sauron is merely a lieutenant of melkor. If elves could survive that then they could survive the current enemy.
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Old 2014-12-25, 07:19   Link #512
Mr Hat and Clogs
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Yeah Dragons were huge back in the day. Ancalagon the Black was like... 10 times larger than Smaug, he crushed mountains in his talons. Also elves can walk on snow without sinking, which admittedly is a bit more believable than bouncing on rocks that were still in the air. Were they big rocks?
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Old 2014-12-25, 07:28   Link #513
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It was a collapsing bridge and Legolas just jumped on the debris before it fell to the chasm below. I don't have anything against it, he's an elf after all...but the extent of his combat skills was truly stretched.
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Old 2014-12-25, 07:54   Link #514
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Originally Posted by Mr Hat and Clogs View Post
Were they big rocks?
Well, those weren't exactly rocks - they were stone bricks from a watchtower that fell sideways over a U-shaped cliff, creating a makeshift and fragile skybridge. What makes the scene rather bad however is the way Legolas leaps from one falling stone to the other, in almost slow-motion. If Peter Jackson had sped up the sequence a little more, even by 1.2x, it wouldn't have been that cringeworthy.

As for Ancalagon, well, he was the largest of all the Urulóki (his fall from the skies during to the seizure of Angband, alone, broke the three towers of Thangorodrim and turned the tides of the battle) and a rather exceptional one, but IIRC, Tolkien said that Smaug was the "last of the great" Fire-Drakes (apparently there were still some smaller Fire-Drakes alive when Frodo set out of Bag End), and the only ones left are lesser breeds still haunting the Withered Heath. So it's possible that the other dragons from the Second Age were more or less of Smaug's size, though much greater in numbers.

Then again, back then Morgoth had a litany of other creatures at his beck and call, but some of them, like the Úvanimor, are only cited in Tolkien's expansive notes and given how incomplete and over-retconned (Tolkien kept changing names, meanings and purposes) they are, including them would've been a debatable decision. Anyway, Peter Jackson doesn't have the rights over these materials (only the three LotR books and the Hobbit; Christopher Tolkien is pretty much doing his "You shall not pass!" stand in front of the other books like the Silmarillion), so he couldn't have included them in the movies (never mind the fact that most of Morgoth's ilk was destroyed in that war).
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Old 2014-12-25, 11:02   Link #515
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Agreed, the issue was the speed at which the scene moved, not the scene itself.

I have a feeling this is going to get another 30-40 minutes of extended footage like Desolation of Smaug got.
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Old 2014-12-25, 11:21   Link #516
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30 extra minutes apparently, with some focus on Beorn. It should allot some time for Thorin's burial, maybe even Tauriel's fate and, more importantly, that wagon vs warg chase scene that was shown in the teaser trailer but not included in the movie. Other things I saw in the trailers but didn't remember seeing in the movie include the Mirkwood army shooting its arrows uphill and the Dwarven cavalry charge (no, I do not mean the part where Thorin borrows Dain's rams to reach Azog).
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Old 2014-12-25, 11:21   Link #517
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Originally Posted by GDB View Post
Agreed, the issue was the speed at which the scene moved, not the scene itself.

I have a feeling this is going to get another 30-40 minutes of extended footage like Desolation of Smaug got.
Yeah. That is why I would wait for it before buying a copy
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Old 2014-12-25, 13:43   Link #518
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Yeah. That is why I would wait for it before buying a copy
That's exactly what I'll be doing. It's nice to see these movies in the theater, but after seeing the extended Lord of the Rings movies, I can never again watch the regular versions they show on TV now.

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Old 2014-12-26, 21:29   Link #519
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In a sense this movie was kind of hilarious.

Only half way home from the theater did I even think about the fate of the things that the conflicts in this movie were based on. Who is King under the Mountain now? What's going to happen with all that gold? Did Bard seriously just manage to sneak off with the Arkenstone?

They did a good job tying this in with the LOTR and make it all fit nicely as a 6 movie epic. But it's just kind of hilarious that so much was kind of ducked. I enjoyed the movie and the conclusion and didn't even think about what they kind of left out of mention until I was half way home.

I will say though my least liked moment was Thorin and his bunch charged the field and turned the tide of the battle...You are half a dozen guys! You aren't leading an army of the dead here. I was ok with some of them dying since that's the kind of result that is going to happen.

In the end the Hobbit films were fine. They were solid setup for the LOTR movies. But it's probably that trilogy of movies I'll see many times again and less the Hobbit movies. Good movies, but not quite as drawn towards having to rewatch them often.
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Old 2014-12-26, 22:33   Link #520
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Who is King under the Mountain now? What's going to happen with all that gold?
I would assume his cousin that helped in the battle.

Quote:
Did Bard seriously just manage to sneak off with the Arkenstone?
Someone said above (I think) what happens to the Arkenstone in the book, which is almost guaranteed to be in the extended edition.
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