Tsuyokute New Saga

[Tenzen12]

Is it really true that demon Lord has yet to ascend on throne? Right now he has less then 3 years unite demon tribes and prepare infrastructure and logistic for continent scale crusade.Thad would make him very busy and single-minded Maou.

I wouldn't rule out possibility that becoming Maou Is just follow up finding Dragon heart and we don't know how long it took find it Befora he/she made official appearance.

[bludvein]

I'm not saying stop setting up the defense entirely. That's common sense since they might just decide to fight anyway. It's just that he could kidnap a few demons and interrogate them about the Heart and the prospective demon king(feed them a description and see if it rings a bell). If they don't know anything, fine, but he wouldn't lose anything either. Getting rid of either would be the neatest solutions, and he isn't even going to look into it. That seems kind of dumb to me, but I seem to be alone in thinking this.

[Iamis]

Doing that is somewhat reasonable but still carries unnecessary risks

The biggest risk is The demon king finding out that Kail is in demon lands and his reaction to finding this out

Remember Kail can't beat the demon king with his current strength and if he dies History will not only repeat itself but actually become worse

[laon]

Originally Posted by bludvein

I'm not saying stop setting up the defense entirely. That's common sense since they might just decide to fight anyway. It's just that he could kidnap a few demons and interrogate them about the Heart and the prospective demon king(feed them a description and see if it rings a bell). If they don't know anything, fine, but he wouldn't lose anything either. Getting rid of either would be the neatest solutions, and he isn't even going to look into it. That seems kind of dumb to me, but I seem to be alone in thinking this.

Again, why do you think not having Dragon Heart mean that the demon lord won't invade human?

[CoCayn]

Your discussion reminds me of the movie: Looper lol

[bludvein]

Originally Posted by laon

Again, why do you think not having Dragon Heart mean that the demon lord won't invade human?

Because its a necessary component for the time-travelling which seems to be the goal of the invasion to begin with.

[Bogart]

I think I've read too many stories if I pegged the demon lord as being the hero from the future within the first chapter.

[bludvein]

Except its logically impossible for such a loop to occur. Time travelling sends their memories/soul into their younger bodies, so how can he be the maou and himself at the same time?

Unless the time travel starts going really wonky and Kail somehow clones himself, but then we start getting into paradoxes and I really don't want to go there.

[laon]

Well if you need to sacrifice half of the human continent to send your soul to the past (or parallel timeline), maybe by sacrificing the entire humankind you can send your whole body too. No one said it's impossible in the novel, and author can pull all kind of "magic" if he really want to go that route.

Originally Posted by bludvein

Because its a necessary component for the time-travelling which seems to be the goal of the invasion to begin with.

We don't know the reason and impetus for the invasion of the demon kind at all, it could have happened regardless of the dragon heart. And if it's really that important, the demon lord could have invaded first then search for it, or he could send some elites demon to track it down. If he's determined enough to start a world war and kill almost the entire population of human then he probably won't give up just because the heart is stolen.

Maybe later Kyle will do as you say and it'll become an arc of hide and seek, I dunno.




By the way, this really bug me : what is Zeeles' gender?

[Netto Azure]

And really this story is him being transported to a parallel universe with him overwriting that world's Kail's soul as explained on how everything branches from an event. Hence why he has a depleated copy of the dragon's heart. All of his old friends are dead and these ones are "new" per-se.

[laon]

Not sure if it's directed to me but your point is...?

[Lhklan]

Originally Posted by laon

Well if you need to sacrifice half of the human continent to send your soul to the past (or parallel timeline), maybe by sacrificing the entire humankind you can send your whole body too. No one said it's impossible in the novel, and author can pull all kind of "magic" if he really want to go that route.

That is possible, problem is what's stopping THIS body from merging with your old body? I mean, Kyle soul got fused but his body is his young one, so what's stopping the spells from merging the two bodies?

We don't know the reason and impetus for the invasion of the demon kind at all, it could have happened regardless of the dragon heart. And if it's really that important, the demon lord could have invaded first then search for it, or he could send some elites demon to track it down. If he's determined enough to start a world war and kill almost the entire population of human then he probably won't give up just because the heart is stolen.

True, but then I think that there should be a spell or something to transfer life into mana, and without the Dragon Heart there then it would be kinda pointless since it's wasted.

By the way, this really bug me : what is Zeeles' gender?

Manga trans shows male, but I'm really iffy on it.

[Netto Azure]

Originally Posted by laon

Not sure if it's directed to me but your point is...?

Just trying to make sense of the whachy logic brain teaser that is time traveling and parallel universe hopping.

Also because the theory of him floating in the thread being in a loop of being a demon lord seems inconsistant.

He's using the 3 years to unite the Human kingdoms, not overthrowing the current moderate demon lord which is still alive during this time iirc?

There's also the fact that he is in his younger body, not the demon lord.

[laon]

Originally Posted by Lhklan

That is possible, problem is what's stopping THIS body from merging with your old body? I mean, Kyle soul got fused but his body is his young one, so what's stopping the spells from merging the two bodies?

What's stopping the demon lord from having the spell do that, he must have some kind of intention to let Kyle reset (I don't believe that it was a coincidence).

By the way, do we know that the dragon heart Kyle got is completely depleted of mana or still have some remain?

True, but then I think that there should be a spell or something to transfer life into mana, and without the Dragon Heart there then it would be kinda pointless since it's wasted.

Yeah, but that won't deter the demon lord from doing small scale attack or covert operation. One thing for sure : he won't stop just because the heart is missing, he will use all possible card he have to track it down.

Manga trans shows male, but I'm really iffy on it.

I almost swear that in one of later chapter the trans refer him as her, guess not.

Originally Posted by Netto Azure

Just trying to make sense of the whachy logic brain teaser that is time traveling and parallel universe hopping.

Also because the theory of him floating in the thread being in a loop of being a demon lord seems inconsistant.

He's using the 3 years to unite the Human kingdoms, not overthrowing the current moderate demon lord which is still alive during this time iirc?

There's also the fact that he is in his younger body, not the demon lord.

So your reasoning is : this is story about New Saga therefore all those theories flying around are not true. It make my head hurt.

Read again those theory carefully, of course #65535 doesn't have the memory of being a demon lord.

[Netto Azure]

Though this does come down to the real question. Why? It's a chicken or the egg question.

What started the loop? Why did the demon lord want to redo things? If the death of everyone made Kyle want to restart as a demon lord then how was he able to come up and start the plan even if he did live in the "Prime" world? Most of humanity was dead by then if it was "inevitable" that the war would occur either way. And of course in the beginning it would not have been set up for the war to have been to collect mana, but a regular Humans vs. Demons war.

[laon]

My first guess is an ultimate enemy, some god like being that utterly devastated the world. Note that this is different from Demon Lord and he probably threatened both the demon and human side and probably the war with the demon didn't happen in this prime timeline.

We don't know if most humanity is death or not, just that somehow Kyle gained the mean and knowledge to do reset and began the quest to gain enough power to counter him.

Now the remaining question to this theory is why didn't the Maou Kyle do it himself, why let innocent Kyle #? do the job for him (since in the loop of New Saga there's no Demon Lord, Kyle will face the true unknown enemy sooner or later). One possible answer is because he feel he's too sinful to carry out the saving, and maybe he left some message in the dragon heart stone telling the truth in 3rd party fashion later.

Again this is just a possible theory, since there are probably better answer for the strange event on first chapter (i.e. Why didn't the Demon Lord use Dragon Heart stone to defeat Kyle? He can recharge it anyway and it's better than being dead. The stone is located in place even crawling Kyle could reach from their battle site).

Spoiler for Mushoku Tensei Spoiler:

This theory is similar to Mushoku Tensei's Orsted situation btw

[Tenzen12]

To be honest it's not COMPLETELY impossible that Kyle is Demon Lord, but right now there is plenty stuff that speak against and NONE for. It might change in future, but right now that theory can't stand against facts.


Bigger issue actually is that your way of thinking is fundamentally wrong, if I should sum your arguments it could be fitted in these two points

1) It could work if everything already established is wrong
2) It could work if we add bunch of elements that weren't even hinted so far.

That's what is called writing fanfiction, every argument have to be based on already established facts ( or at least hinted). Also "what if" was never valid counter argument either.

[laon]

Since I only read the manga I haven't see any contradicting facts actually.

1) Like what? There is nothing established that contradict with the theory. What we know so far is the truth (demon lord invasion, reset etc) but the truth could be deeper than one could thought to be (who the demon lord is, what's his goal, why the reset happen)
2) The biggest hint is the very first chapter and Kyle occasional monologue about the final battle

I've never said that this is the truth or anyone have to believe it, I've engaged with what if with people who are willing to entertain the thought not to "win an argument". Since fanfic is a vague word with vague definition and condition I guess you could use that to almost every discussion about upcoming plot, and selectively use it to call out people and "win the argument", well done.

[Harens]

Originally Posted by laon

Since I only read the manga I haven't see any contradicting facts actually.

1) Like what? There is nothing established that contradict with the theory. What we know so far is the truth (demon lord invasion, reset etc) but the truth could be deeper than one could thought to be (who the demon lord is, what's his goal, why the reset happen)
2) The biggest hint is the very first chapter and Kyle occasional monologue about the final battle

I've never said that this is the truth or anyone have to believe it, I've engaged with what if with people who are willing to entertain the thought not to "win an argument". Since fanfic is a vague word with vague definition and condition I guess you could use that to almost every discussion about upcoming plot, and selectively use it to call out people and "win the argument", well done.

The way the time-travel works is that one "merges" with his body in the past/future(I'm not sure if you can travel to a time where you don't exist...), so it would be impossible for Kyle to be the Demon Lord, because from Kyle's original time he fought and killed the Demon Lord, so it couldn't have happened.
Unless there's some huge twist down the road.

[Tenzen12]

Originally Posted by laon

Since I only read the manga I haven't see any contradicting facts actually.

1) Like what? There is nothing established that contradict with the theory. What we know so far is the truth (demon lord invasion, reset etc) but the truth could be deeper than one could thought to be (who the demon lord is, what's his goal, why the reset happen)
2) The biggest hint is the very first chapter and Kyle occasional monologue about the final battle

I've never said that this is the truth or anyone have to believe it, I've engaged with what if with people who are willing to entertain the thought not to "win an argument". Since fanfic is a vague word with vague definition and condition I guess you could use that to almost every discussion about upcoming plot, and selectively use it to call out people and "win the argument", well done.

Estalished setting is: Time traveling is possible mentaly not physicaly. Heart required mana from killing half population. Truth is obviously deeper as DL motive weren't revealed, but by common sense we can rule out overcomplicated plan on commiting infinite suicide.

"First chapter" gives some hints, but not about Kail becoming "twisted" multiversal selfmurderer who decide commit genocide because he locked his "reserve source" in drawer of his desk and forgot where he put keys...