Mobile Suit Gundam 00 - Episode 12 Discussion / Poll

[Eidolon Sniper]

Spoiler for space >.>;;:

Marina isn't weak, she is just inexperienced. If she was weak, she wouldn't even consider becoming Azadistan queen, when she knows her people are in drastic need for change...she is just naive for believing that there aren't people who do not think like her. Knowing full well that Azadistan needs help quickly is what she's been doing for the first eps, she goes from country to country seeking help. She knows Azadistan needs help quickly that is why she is going on that expedition. That is her way of helping Azadistan. Unfortunately, people who deem those actions as going against what they believe do not take too kindly to what Marina was doing. She acknowledges her role as a figurehead, and she believes she is doing something to help her people (which is really true). She is considerate of what people feel, but she doesn't understand just yet why they seem to refuse her, or go against what she is doing for all of them (hence her naivety). It's not as if she allow the UN to come there (I think it was the UN's decision, but I might be mistaken) to destroy their way of life; she believes that change could bring them stability, especially since oil is now considered nothing in that timeline. Remember that the parliament of Azadistan have their own Conservatives; the Conservatives could manipulate what they really know of the situation and so use it to garner favor from the populace.

This has become even more so when Rasa was kidnapped. I believe there is a majority of Conservatives in Azadistan, which is why they (the people) were so easily to be manipulated, or Rasa is very influential that his kidnapping allowed for that same civil war reaction. Marina already has trouble begging for energy help because of her naivety and inexperience, and this has become even more complicated when Rasa was abducted. Rasa is one of the Conservatives who knew change would bring about a lot of benefits for Azadistan, but he himself didn't like change; Rasa is very important to become the Conservatives' leash. He could influence the people to not become rash; he was reminding his "followers" that before he was kidnapped. If he was in any way harmed or killed, the restored monarchy would be toppled again, and Azadistan would be thrown into chaos.

So saying Marina is weak in this debate is still debatable; she has exhibited signs that she knew that her country needed change, and is doing everything that she could to bring about that change and lessen her people's doubts in the government. Also, she questions her advisers why the people don't like what she is doing; that is a sign that she is eager to know their reasons why they don't like her. If she didn't ask why people were going against her and still continues on with the plan, or not acknowledge their reasons, then we could say that she's selfish. I am pretty sure that she will learn as she goes along if her attitude keeps up this way. That is not a sign of weakness.

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by Eidolon Sniper

Marina isn't weak, she is just inexperienced. If she was weak, she wouldn't even consider becoming Azadistan queen, when she knows her people are in drastic need for change...

She could have been - and probably was - pressured into the role. It doesn't say much one way or the other.

she is just naive for believing that there aren't people who do not think like her.

If that was true, she'd leave the realms of "naive" and "inexperienced" so fast there'd be a visible redshift. I don't think she's that far gone from reality.

I do think she isn't entirely aware of how far some people will go to express their discontent. Or of how fickle most people are. Of how little it takes to turn a cheering crowd into a rioting mob.

Knowing full well that Azadistan needs help quickly is what she's been doing for the first eps, she goes from country to country seeking help. She knows Azadistan needs help quickly that is why she is going on that expedition. That is her way of helping Azadistan. Unfortunately, people who deem those actions as going against what they believe do not take too kindly to what Marina was doing. She acknowledges her role as a figurehead, and she believes she is doing something to help her people (which is really true). She is considerate of what people feel, but she doesn't understand just yet why they seem to refuse her, or go against what she is doing for all of them (hence her naivety).

She knows. She just thinks she's right and they're wrong.

It's not as if she allow the UN to come there (I think it was the UN's decision, but I might be mistaken) to destroy their way of life; she believes that change could bring them stability, especially since oil is now considered nothing in that timeline. Remember that the parliament of Azadistan have their own Conservatives; the Conservatives could manipulate what they really know of the situation and so use it to garner favor from the populace.

So do all the others. Welcome to the world of politics.

This has become even more so when Rasa was kidnapped. I believe there is a majority of Conservatives in Azadistan, which is why they (the people) were so easily to be manipulated, or Rasa is very influential that his kidnapping allowed for that same civil war reaction. Marina already has trouble begging for energy help because of her naivety and inexperience, and this has become even more complicated when Rasa was abducted. Rasa is one of the Conservatives who knew change would bring about a lot of benefits for Azadistan, but he himself didn't like change; Rasa is very important to become the Conservatives' leash. He could influence the people to not become rash; he was reminding his "followers" that before he was kidnapped. If he was in any way harmed or killed, the restored monarchy would be toppled again, and Azadistan would be thrown into chaos.

So saying Marina is weak in this debate is still debatable; she has exhibited signs that she knew that her country needed change, and is doing everything that she could to bring about that change and lessen her people's doubts in the government. Also, she questions her advisers why the people don't like what she is doing; that is a sign that she is eager to know their reasons why they don't like her.

Or that she's a mouthbreating idiot who can't see the obvious. Or that she knows very, very little about her own people. Where was she raised anyway?

If she didn't ask why people were going against her and still continues on with the plan, or not acknowledge their reasons, then we could say that she's selfish. I am pretty sure that she will learn as she goes along if her attitude keeps up this way. That is not a sign of weakness.

She's shown sign of lacking a spine, and of not quite being at home with the idea that blood is going to be shed because of her decisions. (Note that I'm quite willing to acknowledge that on that point, she's damned if she does, damned if she doesn't. Whatever she decides, blood is going to be spilled. But she doesn't look like she can quite look at it in the face.)

[winter45]

Originally Posted by Kasiro

I liked the fact that someone can actually stand up to a gundam now, before this 00 was about elephants[pun intended] vs ants.

I know what you mean Kasiro... Something that CE timeline is very lacking to non-existant. Glad in gundum00 that there are competant grunts as well named characters that can hold on their own quite well.

This is probably one of the many reasons y there are lot of anti CE-fans enjoying double 00 much more, due to the sense of balance and not just plain cannon fodder trash that CE is infamous for amongst the gundam fans. (mind you, i am aware there are some episodes in 00 that grunts are cannon fodder but there have been a few where grunts are shown some competence)

I always prefered the idea that there are ants that are quite capable.. but thats my personal taste.

[Eidolon Sniper]

Spoiler for wall of texts:

@ Anh_Minh

I would not say that she was pressured, she was just put into that role. There could have been other worthy successors, but probably Marina was put into her role as Azadistan queen because she's naive and inexperienced, very well suited to the "role" she was supposed to fill up - in that way, politicians could easily use her as they see fit, and they are in no danger of losing their jobs in any way. They most probably chose her for that. She knew that she was already unpopular, that is why she keeps asking Shirin, or her other advisers, WHY are they going against her. Marina believes that she is doing the right thing, but there wasn't anything that could point out as to why she believes that she's the only one who's right and all the people going against her are wrong. If she was, I don't think she would go out to the extent that she questions her advisers why they are discontent. She could be thinking along the way that the Conservatives are doing something wrong - using force to force Azadistan into expelling foreign aid, when clearly she just allowed them to help them. Shirin has doubts, who wouldn't? But take into consideration that Azadistan would most definitely collapse if they didn't get any kind of aid whatsoever to help them stabilize their economy. Marina believes that helping the country first and foremost is most important to them at the moment; maybe, if they aren't careful, Azadistan would become another Kurgistan/Kurdistan and would be forcibly annexed by another Middle East kingdom who are probably eyeing Azadistan as well. Marina is forced into a position wherein she can't do anything as of yet - it's not a sign of having no spine. Just imagine - she has her supporters who only support her at the moment so that they could control Azadistan, she has Conservatives going against her beliefs of helping Azadistan back to its feet, she has a political crisis wherein a popular Conservative figure was kidnapped, there are people who are discontent with her rule, she knows that the Celestial Being would most definitely arrive in Azadistan if they would support war in any way, and she still has to keep in mind what she does all the time because it might end up infuriating the factions already at war in Azadistan and drive Azadistan further into its collapse. And all of those things are happening at the same time. What's a still naive, inexperienced ruler to do? She still cannot accept the fact that everything she does has a death warrant about it - with what she decides either way, people are going to be hurt or killed, on that I agree. But she knows that she has to accept it, that was why she is worried and tries asking her advisers what makes her actions wrong in an effort to better herself if she could.

Marina could have been brought up in exile, or something; I am not entirely sure about this. Or she just grew up somewhere the Azadistan Royal Family takes refuge, if their ouster was the reason why Azadistan is chaotic by now. What I meant was, they were the reason why they were ousted in the first place - the Royal Family could be accused of being anti-Azadistan by encouraging the precepts of change or whatever, maybe that is why Marina believes that what she is doing right now is right, by bringing change into Azadistan. She was probably taught peaceful means to end a war, and the Royal Family could be in some way a figure of peaceful rule in Azadistan that were forced into hiding because of people who want to rule Azadistan by what they believe in. And so probably force the Royal Family into a position wherein they could then be used by the politicians as they see fit, as what happened with Marina. If they had any power whatsoever, I don't think the Royal Family would allow that farce of a government to take place. Rasa could be seen as Marina's "supporter" by helping her.

Take into consideration what happened in Kurgistan/Kurdistan. Ali was going on how the "heathens" must be driven back from their holy land - this dovetails with what Rasa's followers were also thinking. This could be a long shot, but Ali probably sold Kurgistan off to Conservatives or something, which probably ended with Azadistan taking over Kurgistan, and Setsuna thinking that there is no God for God "allowed" the "heathens" into their land and killed so many of his friends and left him with no home. Remember that Ali is a mercenary, he could be paid by someone else, so that could explain why he kidnapped Rasa. Anyway, that's just my speculation, for all we know there are some Middle East countries who think otherwise, or think the same way because of the culture they all share in the Gundam 00 timeline. As for Marina and her supporters who push for change, they probably remain a minority, that is why they are so despised by the populace for being "deviants".

[Dean_the_Young]

Paragraphs, man! Paragraphs! As in, more of them!

[Eidolon Sniper]

Sorry about that. Wait, I'll spoiler tag it...>.<;;

Edit: There, fixed it...

[Anh_Minh]

Spoiler for wall of texts:

Originally Posted by Eidolon Sniper

@ Anh_Minh

I would not say that she was pressured, she was just put into that role.

Make up your mind. Either she, by herself, decided to be queen, and that's a sign of strength, or she was pressured, coerced, nudged, or whatever nuance you want, and accepting was a sign of weakness.

There could have been other worthy successors, but probably Marina was put into her role as Azadistan queen because she's naive and inexperienced, very well suited to the "role" she was supposed to fill up - in that way, politicians could easily use her as they see fit, and they are in no danger of losing their jobs in any way. They most probably chose her for that.

For them to pick a young, unmarried woman, I'd say that for them to chose her as a ruler and stabilizing force, they must have been scraping the bottom of the barrel.

She knew that she was already unpopular, that is why she keeps asking Shirin, or her other advisers, WHY are they going against her.

Which only shows how little she understands her people.

Or, to be fair, that the writer needed some pretext for exposing the situation to their teenage audience. So maybe she's shown as more stupid than she's supposed to be.

Marina believes that she is doing the right thing, but there wasn't anything that could point out as to why she believes that she's the only one who's right and all the people going against her are wrong.

While there is room for compromise, if she's right, there are plenty of people who have to be wrong.

If she was, I don't think she would go out to the extent that she questions her advisers why they are discontent.

Yes. Precisely because she can't see it from their point of view, she has to ask.

She could be thinking along the way that the Conservatives are doing something wrong - using force to force Azadistan into expelling foreign aid, when clearly she just allowed them to help them. Shirin has doubts, who wouldn't? But take into consideration that Azadistan would most definitely collapse if they didn't get any kind of aid whatsoever to help them stabilize their economy. Marina believes that helping the country first and foremost is most important to them at the moment; maybe, if they aren't careful, Azadistan would become another Kurgistan/Kurdistan and would be forcibly annexed by another Middle East kingdom who are probably eyeing Azadistan as well. Marina is forced into a position wherein she can't do anything as of yet - it's not a sign of having no spine.

No, her constant requests for approval and shows of hesitation are a sign of spinelessness.

Marina could have been brought up in exile, or something; I am not entirely sure about this.

Uh... I wasn't actually requesting speculation on her upbringing, but underlining how disconnected she seems to be from her people.

She was probably taught peaceful means to end a war,

She was probably taught how to cook and do her make up. I hope she was taught history, theology, and political sciences, but I'm not holding my breath on that one.

As for "peaceful means to end a war", if those could be taught, there wouldn't be so many wars now.

and the Royal Family could be in some way a figure of peaceful rule in Azadistan that were forced into hiding because of people who want to rule Azadistan by what they believe in. And so probably force the Royal Family into a position wherein they could then be used by the politicians as they see fit, as what happened with Marina. If they had any power whatsoever, I don't think the Royal Family would allow that farce of a government to take place. Rasa could be seen as Marina's "supporter" by helping her.

We don't even know if there is a royal family, per se. Marina is surely related to royalty, but they could have dug her up from wherever after careful study of the genealogical trees and some detective work.

Originally Posted by Eidolon Sniper

Sorry about that. Wait, I'll spoiler tag it...>.<;;

Edit: There, fixed it...

That doesn't adress the issue of making your text more readable at all.

[AlphaDragoon]

Jeebus, Eidolon. Paragraphs. O.O

[Crusader]

Eidolon i can't even get into what you're posting, it's so much jumbled in there. Anh Minh Hit my point right on the head, except not in as much words. She isn't connected to her people, and barely connectedto those who support her.

[SoldierOfDarkness]

Let's get some facts straight here. At least this is how I see it.

What has Marina done so far? Request aid from the UN which was what she has done.

She's nothing more than a figurehead with no real actual power. If anything, she's what Relena would've been in the Romefellar had Relena not take the initiative and rein them in towards her.

Which is probably why they chose her. As many have pointed out, she's not liked but nor is she hated. Regardless, she's the "poster girl" for the Reformists in parliament who HOLD the REAL power in the country. For the conservatives, Rasa is their "poster man" or their figurehead though a much more respected figure.

The Reformists need someone to represent themselves in public, someone who is neutral in most matters but not strong enough to actually take control/power. In this case Marina fits into that role. She represents the change and is their face but she doesn't have the capability to actually take control over the government.

Up to episode 12, how many of the actions taken by the government were actually done by her?

[Chase]

Originally Posted by kafka

Because god knows the only characters allowed in the show are marysues the brave and kick-ass ones, huh? Marina's, obviously, an escapist and in a constant mode of self-indulgent pity (which I think she will eventually get over for development's sake - whether or not they're executing it well is a different beast entirely); annoyance for her is somewhat understandable, but, Professor Moriarty, chill, much?

I agree with that.


As far as the Lockon vs Graham situation, Lockon was surprised by the pilot's ability but thats it. No one had the upper hand and it gave no indication that Graham's ability is higher than Lockon's, regardless of Lockon having a Gundam, it just showed that Lockon under estimated him to the point where he was gonna have to fight/or gun play, not none of that sniping business. However it shows that Graham is very good, but like i said, it doesnt indicate that Graham is the superior pilot.

[winter45]

@ Chase

Oh i never stated that lockon is lower than Graham, but WD and myself are defending Graham skills while a few posters said that lockon is laid back and pretty much have been suggested could waste Graham if he was trying.

But myself and WD have pointed out that Lockon is *trying* and gave 100% to take out Graham after he missed his first shot. So if anything we are just pointing out that Graham skills should not be underestimated. Graham is clearly the underdog in this fight. So this should be a wakeup call to Lockon to fight Seruiosly and dont be caught off guard regardless in battle. In this battle lockon should be happy the power of his gundam is the only thing that kept him alive. If lockon was in a regular MS he would of died from being in his laid back attitude being half @$$ED.

[kari-no-sugata]

The official Gundam 00 site has some interesting background info on Shirin Bakhtiar, which gives some additional extra insight into Marina's situation. Putting in spoiler since not come out in series yet:

Spoiler for translation from Wikipedia:

A chaperon and adviser to Marina Ismail at the Azadistan royal palace. She has great knowledge of politics but cannot take part in the Azadistan government in an official capacity because women are prohibited from being involved. Consequently, her words and behavior have a bite to them.

So basically, if women can't be directly involved in the government, then Marina is like a red flag to the conservatives - "A woman involved in running the country!? Over my dead body!".

Anyway, I think the complaints aimed at Marina are more because it seems like she wouldn't do much even if she did have some real power.

It's going to be interesting to see how Marina and Setsuna affect each other in future...


PS http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...ini_technology
Rather interesting...

[itis]

Originally Posted by winter45

@ Chase

Oh i never stated that lockon is lower than Graham, but WD and myself are defending Graham skills while a few posters said that lockon is laid back and pretty much have been suggested could waste Graham if he was trying.

But myself and WD have pointed out that Lockon is *trying* and gave 100% to take out Graham after he missed his first shot. So if anything we are just pointing out that Graham skills should not be underestimated. Graham is clearly the underdog in this fight. So this should be a wakeup call to Lockon to fight Seruiosly and dont be caught off guard regardless in battle. In this battle lockon should be happy the power of his gundam is the only thing that kept him alive. If lockon was in a regular MS he would of died from being in his laid back attitude being half @$$ED.

Let's face it; one of them is bound to get caught sooner or later. It's Gundam.

They are depicting Gundams to be superior than any other "mobile suits". Obviously to get caught against a superior "mobile suit", they would have to be lacking in skills.

[Eidolon Sniper]

Spoiler for those who DO NOT mind wall of texts. >.>;;:

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

Make up your mind. Either she, by herself, decided to be queen, and that's a sign of strength, or she was pressured, coerced, nudged, or whatever nuance you want, and accepting was a sign of weakness.

There's still nothing to say that she was pressured to be put in that role; episode 12 only showed her telling Rasa that she accepted the Queen role. Now, it doesn't say anything that by accepting that role she is weak. I see it as a role that she is prepared to tackle, if at best she is still inexperienced, but at least she is trying very hard. I am saying that her acceptance of the Queen role as not a sign of weakness, because even if the person is cut out to be made for that role and given the situation Azadistan is in, they wouldn't accept that role easily, even if they just assigned them that role.

Marina accepting her role as a Queen even if she was just chosen to fill that role (and acknowledging she is a figurehead), clearly not a sign of spinelessness or weakness. I am pretty sure worthier candidates than her would at why they have to act as a puppet, a WILLING puppet, to a government that is nowadays chaotic, and wouldn't accept it no matter how well meaning the intent is. If you were chosen to be Azadistan's King or Queen, what could you have done better than what Marina could possibly do, knowing full well that you are a puppet? I myself would think that I couldn't have done anything better, or maybe act like what Marina did. There aren't many options available to Marina on the outset; she was just thrust into that role as a figurehead, and people disapprove of anything she does, and it's not as if she could easily set up a peace conference now that the Reformists and Conservatives are in turmoil, or that her people are already discontent and need action NOW.

For them to pick a young, unmarried woman, I'd say that for them to chose her as a ruler and stabilizing force, they must have been scraping the bottom of the barrel.

Going by what I already stated, Azadistan clearly isn't a kingdom that could be easily ruled, even for a person who is very well made for that job. I also said that it would be easier to pick someone inexperienced and naive to do the politicians' work for a strong willed candidate who could balk them at every single turn. Marina acknowledged that she is a figurehead and has no real power. But at least she is trying to do something, even how pathetic it seems at first. >.>;; cut her some slack people, she's in a position wherein everything she does could thrust her into more critical situations than she already is at.

And besides, I am hoping that she will grow as a character. Not all royalty could become very much into the affairs of the people; they also prepared for it and had some experience with it (their families grooming them to lead the people), and given Marina's seeming cluelessness with the way real world politics works, the Azadistan royal family might have groomed her in a way that shields Marina from the harsh realities of ruling a population of people who may or may not welcome her as their leader, or have been shielded from knowing what Azadistan is like now since they were forced into a corner. Also, her "ascension" as Queen is very sudden. Why would the parliament suddenly call upon the Azadistan royal family's help for this critical time?

Which only shows how little she understands her people.

At least she understood enough that she needs to do something for her people so that they don't die from starvation. >.>;; But the fact remains that they are going against what she deems important, and label everything she does as something that is what the Reformists want. Even if she really meant what she was doing, they would still see it as something done by the Reformists so that they could take control over the entire kingdom. It would be easy if all people share the same feelings and thoughts exactly, but that's not the way real life works. Here we see Marina trapped in that kind of situation, and she is seen helpless to do anything about it, because of her predicament. You can't please everybody you know...

It's not because you're a Queen or King or wield a royal title that makes it all magically easier, it's also a LOT of hard work. Your own people might desert you, backstab you, use you, and the people may not agree with everything you want to happen, and they could also easily do off with you if they wanted. I am hoping that Marina is in this case a "real life" portrayal of how royals thrust into a precarious situation like Azadistan could react, and how they manage those kinds of problems,and say that being a Princess does not magically entitle a person into making everything work just as planned.

Or, to be fair, that the writer needed some pretext for exposing the situation to their teenage audience. So maybe she's shown as more stupid than she's supposed to be.

People at some point in their lives make stupid decisions, and it's by that way that they learn. Now, if they still don't get it, they are either stubborn to admit that they're wrong, they can't accept the reality that nothing good could come out of their decisions that is why they keep repeating it, or lots of other reasons. Marina isn't in any way stupid; people would of course want to know why people hate them, or why people can't seem to accept anything that they did that was wrong, and try to address them if they can. It's human nature. >.>;; Now, if Marina continues pretending that there is nothing wrong at all in what she's doing that her people seem to disagree with her, that's another new thing entirely, and yes, she may be stupid for thinking that there aren't any people who would disagree with what she does...

Yes. Precisely because she can't see it from their point of view, she has to ask.

So that is what you think, OK fine, I have no problem with that. But what I think is that she is not yet that disconnected from her people as to even ask why they seem to hate her; it is shown that their opinions matter, that is why she asks them. An even more horrible leader would not even ask why; they would just probably go on as if nothing out of the ordinary is happening.

No, her constant requests for approval and shows of hesitation are a sign of spinelessness.

She wants to please everybody. >.>;; Marina's not at fault for trying to please everybody; she needs to bring Azadistan back to its feet, and because of her predicament, there is no choice but to actually ask them for permission, and because she is still inexperienced and needed to be whacked into shape by Shirin and her advisers. A pox to whoever brought her up; but maybe, if it was in a situation wherein the royal family was prevented from learning anything about the current state of Azadistan, they might still be excused for it.

Also, ==>this is just 12 episodes into Gundam 00, it's still too early to judge Marina for her "spinelessness"<==, as there are still a lot of room for improvement, and I hope she does improve. >.>;;

Uh... I wasn't actually requesting speculation on her upbringing, but underlining how disconnected she seems to be from her people.

Her upbringing could actually be a major factor into WHY Marina is acting this way. It's not because she just read books, or studied in order to become a good leader or anything; the environment she grew up in, what her parents taught her, yes, they all matter into molding a person into what they would be in the future. I was just trying to connect it to some extent as to why she is "spineless".

She was probably taught how to cook and do her make up. I hope she was taught history, theology, and political sciences, but I'm not holding my breath on that one.

As for "peaceful means to end a war", if those could be taught, there wouldn't be so many wars now.

What makes you so sure about that? As for being taught peaceful means to end a war, what are all the diplomatic missions for? >.>;; But given the Middle East situation in Gundam 00, it would be pretty hard to do that, as there is continuous war going on. So probably they just relied on theory for that?

Also, it's easy to say things like that, when in truth human beings are very complicated creatures with their own unique differences in personality and the way they think. As long as there is a need for power in this world, the wars simply would not end.

We don't even know if there is a royal family, per se. Marina is surely related to royalty, but they could have dug her up from wherever after careful study of the genealogical trees and some detective work.

Her "First Princess" title could probably mean that she is from a major royal house ...or maybe not.

That doesn't adress the issue of making your text more readable at all.

This has always been the bane of my existence during my college years, it's a wonder how my professors dealt with it at all. >.>;; anyway sorry about that. All the major points that I wanted to come across are already written in bold in case for the walls of text, and are there in case the people who hate walls of texts have headaches already.

@ Crusader

Marina isn't connected to her advisers because she was just picked for the job and hardly have any interaction at all before she was picked for that job presumably to even make a clear connection with each other. The same thing could probably only apply to her as well with regards to her people if she didn't think their opinions mattered; but clearly, asking her advisers why they do not like what she's doing makes a lot of sense as to why I think she is still connected to her people to some extent.

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by Eidolon Sniper

There's still nothing to say that she was pressured to be put in that role; episode 12 only showed her telling Rasa that she accepted the Queen role. Now, it doesn't say anything that by accepting that role she is weak. I see it as a role that she is prepared to tackle, if at best she is still inexperienced, but at least she is trying very hard. I am saying that her acceptance of the Queen role as not a sign of weakness, because even if the person is cut out to be made for that role and given the situation Azadistan is in, they wouldn't accept that role easily, even if they just assigned them that role.

I'm pretty sure that they didn't come to her saying "Hey, could you be our queen for a bit? If you can't, no biggy!". It was probably more along the lines of "Your country needs you! If you refuse, everyone will suffer, puppies will die, and you'll suffer from premature baldness."

Marina accepting her role as a Queen even if she was just chosen to fill that role (and acknowledging she is a figurehead), clearly not a sign of spinelessness or weakness.

Refusing would have been a sign of strength. Caving in is a sign of weakness. Note, refusing could be a sign of stupidity, too, so I'm not saying she was necessarily wrong to accept. I just don't see it as such a virtuous thing.

I mean, if powerful men came to me and said I must be king, well, you can call me "Your majesty". Even though I'd look for ways to weasel out of it afterwards.

I am pretty sure worthier candidates than her would at why they have to act as a puppet, a WILLING puppet, to a government that is nowadays chaotic, and wouldn't accept it no matter how well meaning the intent is.

So? I'm sure it'd have been easier to work with a man, just in terms of image, even if that man is personality-wise a bit difficult. That they have picked a woman only tells me that they were pretty desperate.

If you were chosen to be Azadistan's King or Queen, what could you have done better than what Marina could possibly do, knowing full well that you are a puppet? I myself would think that I couldn't have done anything better, or maybe act like what Marina did. There aren't many options available to Marina on the outset; she was just thrust into that role as a figurehead, and people disapprove of anything she does, and it's not as if she could easily set up a peace conference now that the Reformists and Conservatives are in turmoil, or that her people are already discontent and need action NOW.

Oh, I'd have done worse. I'm not a people person and would make a terrible beggar. But I wouldn't go all googly eyed every time I hear something underhanded, manipulative, and/or violent happens. What is she, eight?

Going by what I already stated, Azadistan clearly isn't a kingdom that could be easily ruled, even for a person who is very well made for that job. I also said that it would be easier to pick someone inexperienced and naive to do the politicians' work for a strong willed candidate who could balk them at every single turn. Marina acknowledged that she is a figurehead and has no real power. But at least she is trying to do something, even how pathetic it seems at first. >.>;; cut her some slack people, she's in a position wherein everything she does could thrust her into more critical situations than she already is at.

The problem isn't with what she does, or doesn't do. She has no political power, and it's not her fault. I understand that.

The problem is how... little girlish she is. What's cute in an first grader is just irritating in a stateswoman in her mid-twenties. She needs a healthy dose of cynicism.

And besides, I am hoping that she will grow as a character. Not all royalty could become very much into the affairs of the people; they also prepared for it and had some experience with it (their families grooming them to lead the people), and given Marina's seeming cluelessness with the way real world politics works, the Azadistan royal family might have groomed her in a way that shields Marina from the harsh realities of ruling a population of people who may or may not welcome her as their leader, or have been shielded from knowing what Azadistan is like now since they were forced into a corner. Also, her "ascension" as Queen is very sudden. Why would the parliament suddenly call upon the Azadistan royal family's help for this critical time?

At this point, it looks to me like they picked her up in an orphanage or something. She doesn't look like she was prepared at all.

At least she understood enough that she needs to do something for her people so that they don't die from starvation. >.>;;

So she can understand the basic economical situation of her country. Well done. But she still doesn't understand how her people think.

But the fact remains that they are going against what she deems important, and label everything she does as something that is what the Reformists want. Even if she really meant what she was doing, they would still see it as something done by the Reformists so that they could take control over the entire kingdom. It would be easy if all people share the same feelings and thoughts exactly, but that's not the way real life works. Here we see Marina trapped in that kind of situation, and she is seen helpless to do anything about it, because of her predicament. You can't please everybody you know...

What's your point there? Do you believe she has her own agenda, separate from the Reformists's?

It's not because you're a Queen or King or wield a royal title that makes it all magically easier, it's also a LOT of hard work. Your own people might desert you, backstab you, use you, and the people may not agree with everything you want to happen, and they could also easily do off with you if they wanted. I am hoping that Marina is in this case a "real life" portrayal of how royals thrust into a precarious situation like Azadistan could react, and how they manage those kinds of problems,and say that being a Princess does not magically entitle a person into making everything work just as planned.

Don't tell me, tell her.

People at some point in their lives make stupid decisions, and it's by that way that they learn. Now, if they still don't get it, they are either stubborn to admit that they're wrong, they can't accept the reality that nothing good could come out of their decisions that is why they keep repeating it, or lots of other reasons. Marina isn't in any way stupid; people would of course want to know why people hate them, or why people can't seem to accept anything that they did that was wrong, and try to address them if they can. It's human nature. >.>;; Now, if Marina continues pretending that there is nothing wrong at all in what she's doing that her people seem to disagree with her, that's another new thing entirely, and yes, she may be stupid for thinking that there aren't any people who would disagree with what she does...

It's friggin obvious to anyone who knows Azadistan just a little bit that there are people who'll oppose her.

So that is what you think, OK fine, I have no problem with that. But what I think is that she is not yet that disconnected from her people as to even ask why they seem to hate her; it is shown that their opinions matter, that is why she asks them. An even more horrible leader would not even ask why; they would just probably go on as if nothing out of the ordinary is happening.

While callous, it may not be such a bad move. She's horrible, not because she cares, but because she asks questions whose answers should be obvious to anyone who has even an inkling of what the Azadistani people are like. When you go see a doctor, it is not a good sign if he asks "Can someone remind me what that heart singy if for, already?"

She wants to please everybody. >.>;; Marina's not at fault for trying to please everybody; she needs to bring Azadistan back to its feet, and because of her predicament, there is no choice but to actually ask them for permission, and because she is still inexperienced and needed to be whacked into shape by Shirin and her advisers. A pox to whoever brought her up; but maybe, if it was in a situation wherein the royal family was prevented from learning anything about the current state of Azadistan, they might still be excused for it.

Demagoguery isn't actually a good leadership trait. She'd be better off picking a strategy and sticking to it, instead of constantly doubting herself. In public.

Also, ==>this is just 12 episodes into Gundam 00, it's still too early to judge Marina for her "spinelessness"<==, as there are still a lot of room for improvement, and I hope she does improve. >.>;;

Yeah, sure, she may grow. But right now? She doesn't cut the mustard.

Her upbringing could actually be a major factor into WHY Marina is acting this way. It's not because she just read books, or studied in order to become a good leader or anything; the environment she grew up in, what her parents taught her, yes, they all matter into molding a person into what they would be in the future. I was just trying to connect it to some extent as to why she is "spineless".



What makes you so sure about that? As for being taught peaceful means to end a war, what are all the diplomatic missions for? >.>;; But given the Middle East situation in Gundam 00, it would be pretty hard to do that, as there is continuous war going on. So probably they just relied on theory for that?

Diplomacy is just a lot of people trying to get ahead.

Anyway, my point was, you can't teach "peaceful ways to end wars" the way you can teach science, or even literature. There's no set, tried and true way to end a war.

Besides, I haven't been impressed by her education so far.

This has always been the bane of my existence during my college years, it's a wonder how my professors dealt with it at all. >.>;; anyway sorry about that. All the major points that I wanted to come across are already written in bold in case for the walls of text, and are there in case the people who hate walls of texts have headaches already.

As far as I'm concerned, bold makes it less readable, not more. Use italics instead. And don't emphasize whole sentences.

[Eidolon Sniper]

Spoiler for people who LIKE wall of texts:

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

I'm pretty sure that they didn't come to her saying "Hey, could you be our queen for a bit? If you can't, no biggy!". It was probably more along the lines of "Your country needs you! If you refuse, everyone will suffer, puppies will die, and you'll suffer from premature baldness."

Now that is just...

Refusing would have been a sign of strength. Caving in is a sign of weakness. Note, refusing could be a sign of stupidity, too, so I'm not saying she was necessarily wrong to accept. I just don't see it as such a virtuous thing.

Well, so you think, so OK, no arguments with that. I am just saying that accepting it is also not a sign of weakness. Refusing a responsibility like that, even if it meant that Marina knew that she was just a "puppet", could probably make her even weaker. Remember that she didn't have a lot of options to begin with, and most importantly, we were only shown wherein Marina was already hastily reinstated as Azadistan Queen; we just knew that parliament suddenly decided to make her a Queen...

I mean, if powerful men came to me and said I must be king, well, you can call me "Your majesty". Even though I'd look for ways to weasel out of it afterwards.

Once you have accepted something huge like that, it's not easy to actually try weasel your way out of it somehow...if you know what your limitations are, then just refuse it before you bring further chaos into the kingdom you are ruling. Marina in this case has no inkling of what politics was all about, as she was just suddenly thrust into that role, and knew she had to do something, even pathetic at the beginning, in order to make do with her acceptance of that role she was required to fill. She's not shying away from her responsibilities, and she knew she knew a little of how politics works, but at least she's trying to assess the situation by continuously asking what is wrong why her people are against her, and all that.

So? I'm sure it'd have been easier to work with a man, just in terms of image, even if that man is personality-wise a bit difficult. That they have picked a woman only tells me that they were pretty desperate.

Do i detect something rather against women by this statement? Leaders are not judged by gender, and suddenly opting for a female leader does not mean that the country or kingdom is "desperate". They probably chose Marina for her inexperience and naivety. There are strong women leaders, and there are ineffectual, weak women leaders, as much as there are also men who are like that either way.

Oh, I'd have done worse. I'm not a people person and would make a terrible beggar. But I wouldn't go all googly eyed every time I hear something underhanded, manipulative, and/or violent happens. What is she, eight?

Cripes, for all those things happening at the same time and because of her ineffectiveness as a Queen by the start of the series...I could understand that everything would be still shocking for her, and she is still trying to digest that fact as she goes on ruling Azadistan. I wouldn't hold it against her. I could probably do a lot worse than Marina. Marina is still trying to make sense of the entire situation at this point in time, and with her "supporter" Rasa gone, it only made her work even more complicated. She finally had the UN help Azadistan in a way that would help their economy stabilized, but Ali pulls a coup d' etat and pulls the figurative carpet right out from under her feet, and is using the feelings of the people effectively against what she deems as best for her country.

The problem isn't with what she does, or doesn't do. She has no political power, and it's not her fault. I understand that.

The problem is how... little girlish she is. What's cute in an first grader is just irritating in a stateswoman in her mid-twenties. She needs a healthy dose of cynicism.

Yeah, we could probably hate the people who brought her up that way, or maybe not. I just put my speculations wherein the royal family was banned from knowing anything about what is going on in Azadistan, or that the royal family could be using some sort of branded studies that would censor anything inflammatory about Azadistan and only show its good side. But what makes it curious is that Marina reacted when Setsuna told her he's from Kurgistan, and seemed to know that it was Azadistan who was responsible for what happened to them. Plot hole in my Gundam 00? anyway, people who want to maintain an image would most likely only say good things about themselves and take out all the bad things that could be said about them.

At this point, it looks to me like they picked her up in an orphanage or something. She doesn't look like she was prepared at all.

The royal family could've been very surprised as to why they were suddenly called to action, and the current situation just made it a lot worse. Besides, it's not like people can be prepared anytime to rule a nation effectively from the start - especially if the government just merely wanted the royal family to become their poster people in order to further their control on the Azadistan populace.

So she can understand the basic economical situation of her country. Well done. But she still doesn't understand how her people think.

She probably equated their needs to having their basic needs put before anything else, as this is what they REALLY need at the moment. With oil useless in that timeline, now isn't really the time of actually trying to listen to what the people want for the time being for she needs Azadistan to recover from the oil shock. There really isn't any time for a peace conference because Azadistan is clearly on its way to economic meltdown and needs action fast. With Rasa gone, it has made everything very difficult; Rasa is a Conservative who believes in change, eventhough he doesn't like it. Rasa could explain to them why they need change, and so they won't look at Marina as a destroyer of their traditions or whatnot. But now that he's gone, people are mad, and it's useless trying to explain things to people when they're mad for they would probably only get even more mad.

What's your point there? Do you believe she has her own agenda, separate from the Reformists's?

No, I just believe that Marina is simply trying to do the best she can for her people, but because her actions are similar to what the Reformists want, people would instantly brand her as a Reformist puppet, or the new face of the Reformists. She could be doing everything at her own volition, yet people would still think of her as doing something that what the Reformists want to happen, or depending on what action she would take that would closely resemble to the objectives of the 2 groups. And now Rasa's gone, who would explain to the Conservatives that she's merely trying to help them?

It's friggin obvious to anyone who knows Azadistan just a little bit that there are people who'll oppose her.

That is why she is worried all the time and always asks questions so that she can try to understand a little what the hell is going on and try to do something about it.

While callous, it may not be such a bad move. She's horrible, not because she cares, but because she asks questions whose answers should be obvious to anyone who has even an inkling of what the Azadistani people are like. When you go see a doctor, it is not a good sign if he asks "Can someone remind me what that heart singy if for, already?"

She understands that there is going to be war and hate with all the things that she will do, but it's not because she does not know what the heck is going on so blatantly. She seems to be a very good hearted person who does not really like getting people hurt, and it's still very hard for her to accept everything, as it all comes as a shock to her. Trying to ask her advisers what makes them act like that is actually a good sign that she is trying to make sense of all her decisions, and is still getting confused and shocking for her. A person with no particular experience with something that we take for granted would probably be shocked too. Now, the doctor comparison is just a little too extreme for equating it to what Marina is acting like right now...

Demagoguery isn't actually a good leadership trait. She'd be better off picking a strategy and sticking to it, instead of constantly doubting herself. In public.

She is still a bit hesitant because she was just suddenly thrust into a role she does not understand thoroughly yet, except through basic actions like trying to get help for Azadistan. It's not as if she can do all those things as easily as we would have wanted her to, even if it's a bit frustrating for us. >.<;; I am still hoping she'd do better in the future, and patience is a virtue....

Diplomacy is just a lot of people trying to get ahead.

Anyway, my point was, you can't teach "peaceful ways to end wars" the way you can teach science, or even literature. There's no set, tried and true way to end a war.

Yeah, but it also teaches future kings and queens the importance of making good, peaceful decisions to end something like a war before turning to more drastic solutions like the use of force to get what they want. >.>;;

As far as I'm concerned, bold makes it less readable, not more. Use italics instead. And don't emphasize whole sentences.

To each his own, I guess. >.>;; or maybe because I already have bad eyesight. But regardless, it's your call whether or not you would want to read walls of texts with bold sentences...

@ SoldierOfDarkness

She has actually tried getting help from France, and some other countries, but she was unsuccessful at that. The UN aid was something unexpected, I think, or maybe I have to rewatch that episode again. in any case, Marina DID try something, but failed spectacularly. It wasn't on her own volition, more likely she was just told to beg for alms, but it doesn't necessarily mean that she didn't take her work seriously, or that she didn't want to help.

The show still hasn't shown anything that would probably point to Marina being neutral, she was very much concerned in making sure she does get help from her people, and is not at all averse to the idea that change is something they could use to great effect, going after what the Reformists are after. So she's actually Reformist without actually saying she is one in some way. The bad thing about this is, if Marina did try to do something without the permission from the Reformists, the people would still see her like that. The people are going against Marina because of her affiliation with the Reformists, that is why there is a lot of discontent in Azadistan. Her acceptance of UN aid just made it all worse....>.>;;

Back on topic:

It's just sad Patrick's not doing any screentime anymore...

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by Eidolon Sniper

Do i detect something rather against women by this statement? Leaders are not judged by gender, and suddenly opting for a female leader does not mean that the country or kingdom is "desperate". They probably chose Marina for her inexperience and naivety. There are strong women leaders, and there are ineffectual, weak women leaders, as much as there are also men who are like that either way.

Not me. The Azadistani are sexists. Which is why Marina's advisor is frustrated with her position.

And one of my points was, it doesn't even really matter what kind of person they chose for the throne, since there's no real power that goes with that job. In terms of image, though, a king would have served them better on the domestic side.

Cripes, for all those things happening at the same time and because of her ineffectiveness as a Queen by the start of the series...I could understand that everything would be still shocking for her, and she is still trying to digest that fact as she goes on ruling Azadistan. I wouldn't hold it against her. I could probably do a lot worse than Marina. Marina is still trying to make sense of the entire situation at this point in time, and with her "supporter" Rasa gone, it only made her work even more complicated. She finally had the UN help Azadistan in a way that would help their economy stabilized, but Ali pulls a coup d' etat and pulls the figurative carpet right out from under her feet, and is using the feelings of the people effectively against what she deems as best for her country.

Ali, shmali. Her country was already full of violent religious nuts. She should have expected terrorist actions at least, if not precisely what happened.

She probably equated their needs to having their basic needs put before anything else, as this is what they REALLY need at the moment. With oil useless in that timeline, now isn't really the time of actually trying to listen to what the people want for the time being for she needs Azadistan to recover from the oil shock. There really isn't any time for a peace conference because Azadistan is clearly on its way to economic meltdown and needs action fast.

The fact that her country was full of murderous religious fanatics and of their sympathizers is important and should have been taken into account.

With Rasa gone, it has made everything very difficult; Rasa is a Conservative who believes in change, eventhough he doesn't like it. Rasa could explain to them why they need change, and so they won't look at Marina as a destroyer of their traditions or whatnot.

No, that's the Reformists' job. Rasa's was to say "Yes, they're heathen bastards and all, but violence isn't the solution."

No, I just believe that Marina is simply trying to do the best she can for her people, but because her actions are similar to what the Reformists want, people would instantly brand her as a Reformist puppet, or the new face of the Reformists. She could be doing everything at her own volition, yet people would still think of her as doing something that what the Reformists want to happen, or depending on what action she would take that would closely resemble to the objectives of the 2 groups. And now Rasa's gone, who would explain to the Conservatives that she's merely trying to help them?

It's not like Rasa's the only one with a brain among the conservatives. Not that the mob is in a listening mood right now anyway...

[Eidolon Sniper]

Yes, but, since we are going against an image that would probably connote "weakness" on the part of the person accepting that job, a male accepting Marina's position would be much worse and even more chaos would ensue. And if the Reformists wanted someone who would fit their job specs perfectly, they needed someone who would not be difficult to control. Some people would probably connote that kind of acceptance as "weak", so they probably wouldn't touch that matter with a ten foot pole.

She knew that there would be people who would hate her and would have deaths because of her actions, but being her first time out, it's very difficult for her to accept it just yet.

With the fact that Azadistan is already caving in from the economic meltdown pushed by the oil uselessness, it's really hard to take account of the situation of the people who think what Marina is doing is against their beliefs just yet. It's easy to say things like that, but their current situation isn't helping at all. I am pretty sure that Marina would wish to have a dialogue, and I think Marina at one point suggested that to her advisers, but they told her flat out that it was impossible at this point, because Azadistan needed action right now, and some of the people's opinions must have to be sacrificed for a while, or else there would be no Azadistan to speak of.

Would a Conservative listen to a Reformist? O.o;; Probably, if they were like minded like Rasa, or have a broader view of Azadistan politics. It's like saying that Kira is better in a thread filled with Shinn lovers, and you know what that always ends up in. seriously though, Rasa told Marina himself that the Conservatives NEEDED someone who could identify with their plight. So, if you get a Reformist try to speak to a mob of angry Azadistanis, they wouldn't listen even if they try to tell them change is needed in a method Rasa would approve. Rasa is very critical at this point in time to make them listen.

[Anh_Minh]

What the Conservatives needed was a leader who isn't a bloodthirsty maniac. That's what Rasa provided.

What they didn't need, and Rasa didn't provide, was a leader telling them the other side is right.

And, most likely, most people are neither fanatic Reformists nor Conservatives, but kinda in the middle. Those are the people that need convincing.