Why is Gundam Seed Destiny so controversial?

[wingdarkness]

Originally Posted by monstert

Not quite, Kira's victory over Rey was circumstantial. It's unlikely he'll be able to get such openings with every future enemies. Also, both CE series have shown that neither Kira nor anybody else is unbeatable. Furthermore, beating someone once does not mean you'll beat them the next time, and that goes the same for everyone, including Kira.

Would you agree to that with your life on the line? I’m not saying no one in the galaxy can beat Kira, I’m saying (based on GSD’s depiction of him) no one in the galaxy can believable beat him…I won’t believe it…Based on my time here, I’m sure there are many who would agree…

As this is a work of fiction, and the CE universe is big enough, new characters of varying skills and/or technology can always be introduced.

Yes we saw that with Stargazer which wasn’t half-bad, but the movie WILL revolve around Kira and Lacus (if it ever gets made)…What in Sunrise’s makeup would have you think otherwise (and that’s ignoring all the evidence put out their by Fukuda and his wife)? They are going to cash that movie out Kiracus style and you know it…

I think that will pretty much encompass all your points, because I don’t have any faith that this movie will examine some niche characters or circumstance that doesn’t involve Kira and Lacus…And to ask someone to beat them now based on GSD, would be unbelievable…

And 00 is free to take that or any other gimmick it wants without affecting SEED's future. After all, they're already sharing the mecha gimmick, kid affected by war gimmick, clone gimmick, just to name a few.

But that isn’t my point…The alien gimmick would be all GSD has left since it’s exhausted it’s world in-terms of technology and piloting skills of 2 people verses the entire universe essentially…Bottomline, to see Athrun or god forbid Kira easily bested would have no believability based on what has been done…You can suspend your disbelief, I guarantee you many won’t be able to…

Originally Posted by Paladinoras

Why would you have a shitty anime in your com?

So you can argue about it. Duh...

Unless if you are telling all of us that you have a photographic memory of what exactly happened in Destiny for all 50 episodes, INCLUDING clip shows and such..

In that case, what happened on 3:42 at the 25th episode of the series?

The $hitty anime on my comp, that was more an attempt at a touche' moment my friend...

As for the rest, I’m telling you that it has been 4 years since this show aired and while I find it to be by far the worst Gundam show ever I still remember many of the hundreds and hundreds of debates I had within the freshness of it airing here on animesuki…I’ve have dissected this show with the accuracy of an overzealous lab-teacher on frozen frog day…There are certain sensibilities about the show 4 years later that are so woven in my mind I don’t need to go back and review anything…I guess you weren’t here but I was and I remember the $hitstorm…I stood in the apex of it…Search Function your heart away to 2004-05 episode discussions and you will see indisputable proof of my efforts…

And you obviously did not watch Destiny properly...or did not delve deeper into the surface.

For the love of God, you know nothing about me if you believe this…Destiny could not be watched properly…It is the first Gundam show to nearly get yanked off of the air 3 times because of production errors WITH IT’S SCRIPT…Fukuda himself called it the most disappointing work of his career according to an interview put on gunota following the series…

It’s themes while prevalent where schizophrenic in nature making it difficult for certain aspects to be taken seriously (Not that they still can't be argued)....It had the first intended main character in the history of all known literature to lose his main character status and reduced to a character who no longer could even effect or drive the plot in progressive manner (Name another one I’ll give you 5 tries)…What show do you think you were watching? A devotion to Kira or Lacus is pretty much the only ultimate pleasure that can be derived from this mess of an animated production… How can I take many of its deeper themes seriously when it could hardly manage it’s surface themes…

monstert can you please help me here and tell these people? I didn't delve deep? That's an embarrassing statement to me...

Team Lacus achieved a flawless victory, yeah,

Right there, that’s the end of your argument…You 4tran and Neku choose to take some Pollyanna stance on this show and accept the unbelievable and un-engaging flawlessness in which they win this show…I wonder why…I WONDER what all 3 of you have in common?

[Neku]

LYAO-it-up...Why would I expect a 4tran cheerleader to get me or my cornucopia of perspectives? And like said he might be responsible for maybe1-dot, not all 6 chump…

But you still chose to reply me. I guess I'm more than a 4Tran cheerleader after all. Then again, we'll have to draw a line for this. So there~

He didn’t promote peace thru his “big-stick” as you put it until he snapped IMO from the writing on the wall that a universal army plus 2 aces, in 2 supped up Gundams STILL couldn’t TOUCH (let alone defeat) a rag-tag group of pwners…He f**king lost his marbles in the end and tried to vaporize Orb, Kiracus, and his own men…You are acting as if requiem had been online for the entire series where it would have “made sense” to use it in a totalitarian manner…

From your first statement, my reply would be, you misinterpret my words.
Last statement; no. You just misinterpreted my post.

To summarize it, you went off-topic. But don't worry, you can restart.

He could have easily had Messiah prepped and had it aimed @ Orb and asked them to peacefully surrender before they joined the battle…How the hell is that using Requiem as a “big stick” for peace when they just harbored Djbril? (In-terms of the DP plan) That would have been seen as politically shrewd; to the zealots that would have been too nice for what happened to the Plants…

He didn't use Requiem for peace. He used it as a form of announcing threat; as a result, waging war, by first eliminating the Atlantic Federation. As for Orb, someone did ask him about firing at Orb, and he said that Orb will be dealt with later.

Maybe I should point it out to you. I did not at all imply that Durandal was using Requiem as a symbol for peace.

That’s why I said it was his last resort from a perspective in which I agreed in-terms of Team Lacus’ unbelievable unstoppableness…Honestly you think you’re making a great point here? That’s why it’s semantical in nature… I consider ALL THAT $HIT the last resort, because Dully had ample time to make it an earlier resort, but he didn’t want to compromise his end game (An argument could be made that requiem would have never been used at all if Dully could help it)…But as the last resort within the last resort firing on his men would have eventually killed any hopes of passing his plan in a nominal manner and obviously the fallout would have killed much of his support and popularity (If not all of it)…What are we even arguing again?

Let me recall, and remind you.
That post, was initially for yezhanquan. His time setting, was I believe - Durandal announcing Destiny Plan, and fired Requiem. Mr Ye also said that Durandal has no qualms about using it.

I commented that if Durandal were to promote peace with Requiem, he would be igniting war and tyranny instead.

That is where you, the awesome wingdarkness butt in (I'm lying about the adjective: awesome, btw).

You claim that firing Requiem was Durandal's last resort.

I retorted that if we're gonna talk last resort, it would be when he put the order to fire Requiem even at his own troops, and not in the time setting yezhanquan mentioned.

Thank you for reading.
You can restart now.

Listen you overzealous daywalker, a debate consists of arguments…Arguments can be fleshed out in a myriad of different and varying ways...Some can be taken strictly from timestamps (as requested by you and another Lacus-bot in this thread), some can be taken from overall perspectives or innuendos based on the anime itself (Then people can decide whether or not the argument I make is a good argument—I don’t have to tell you that more times than not THEY DO)…

A good argument is backed up by credible sources and official evidence.

Secondly, why would I have a $hitty anime on my computer for 4 years when I don’t even have many of the Gundum series I love on my computer either (I got like 5 series, but not all of them, yet I’ve seen them all, INCREDIBLE I KNOW)…Yet in a debate about MSG thru TurnA and beyond I can pull from my memory perspectives and analytical fervor that I’ll never forget…But I know if someone stops you on the street an asks you how the pizza @ “Antonio’s” tastes you have to refer to the half-eaten bacteria-ridden pepperoni you carry around in your shirt-pocket…I can use my memory…

As for food, you don't argue about how delicious food is. You give an opinion.

And with this memory I can use my mental Rolodex inwhich my thousands of debates on GSD certainly trump the amount of Lacus wallpapers found in a customized folder on your desktop…But I may be pushing it...

I think you are horribly wrong, because I do not have any Lacus wallpapers on my desktop.

Your sensei certainly doesn’t subscribe to the grey-area debate…But let me tell you why the story is screwed…

I have no interests in your perspective.

Originally Posted by 4Tran

Stellar did nothing for me at all (and I'm even a Kuwashima Houko fan); it's more the realization of what Shinn's endpoint was supposed to be that makes me see him in a different light. I still think of him as a pig-headed jerk, but it's not as if I haven't liked pig-headed jerk characters before .

Aha, it wasn't Stellar. It's her death, and that particular scene; which was why I pointed out that it could most probably be the song.

I don't know if there would even be a role for Shinn in the movie. He's out of the main political sphere of the other characters, and he isn't really interested in the same kind of things they are, so I'm not sure where he'd fit. I suppose that Shinn could be shoehorned in like characters were in Mai-Otome Zwei, but it was a terrible idea for that OVA, and I can't see it doing any better in a movie.

LOL. I would think that he would still be in -if there really is one-. He is, after all, one of the main characters regardless of being casted aside.

I'd say that the themes are even more complex than that; the main ones being:
We are not entirely constrained by our genes/upbringing; we can learn to go beyond them.
Conflict and wars cannot simply be handwaved away. What we need to do is to do our best to rebuild everytime they tear down the foundations of the world.
Wanting to do the right thing is important, but not enough. It's more important to actually do the right thing.
Put all of those themes together, and the messages in Destiny are quite nuanced and profound. They are also not the kind of themes that are found in most anime.

Your third theme reminds me of a quote by Kira... something along the lines of "if you do nothing because you thought it wouldn't help, you end up doing less than nothing, because nothing would change, and nothing would end".

It's probably just me, but I find the SEED series, especially Destiny, extremely inspiring.

[wingdarkness]

Originally Posted by Neku

Maybe I should point it out to you. I did not at all imply that Durandal was using Requiem as a symbol for peace.

Originally Posted by What Neku said earlier

If Durandal intends to promote peace through his big stick, he's igniting war and tyranny. If there is still war, it means that not everyone is willing to try his plan, despite the current war.

His act of pointing a stick to annihilate people who oppose his ideals does not at all promote peace. It induces fear that makes people comply. You will never get lasting peace that way.

Guess you’re gonna say promoting peace has nothing to do with what Requiem stands for as a symbol…Sighs…Dissapointing...

[monster]

Originally Posted by wingdarkness

Would you agree to that with your life on the line? I’m not saying no one in the galaxy can beat Kira, I’m saying (based on GSD’s depiction of him) no one in the galaxy can believable beat him…I won’t believe it…Based on my time here, I’m sure there are many who would agree…

By GSD's depiction, I assume you mean Kira's final fight with Rey. Because it's not like defeating multiple enemies is anything new to GSD while Kira's fights with Shinn would show that Kira can win some and Kira can loose some (at least, as far as the battle itself is concerned).

Yes we saw that with Stargazer which wasn’t half-bad, but the movie WILL revolve around Kira and Lacus (if it ever gets made)…What in Sunrise’s makeup would have you think otherwise (and that’s ignoring all the evidence put out their by Fukuda and his wife)? They are going to cash that movie out Kiracus style and you know it…

I do believe they already stated that the movie (if it ever gets made) would revolve around the two main couples. So I won't argue about that. But that's different from saying there's no one that could believably beat Kira just from basing it on his depiction in (one main fight from) GSD.

I think that will pretty much encompass all your points, because I don’t have any faith that this movie will examine some niche characters or circumstance that doesn’t involve Kira and Lacus…And to ask someone to beat them now based on GSD, would be unbelievable…

I think what it all comes down to is that Kira has been beaten in the past so there's a precedence for him loosing in the future. One circumstantial fight with one enemy should never speak for other fights.

But that isn’t my point…The alien gimmick would be all GSD has left since it’s exhausted it’s world in-terms of technology and piloting skills of 2 people verses the entire universe essentially…Bottomline, to see Athrun or god forbid Kira easily bested would have no believability based on what has been done…You can suspend your disbelief, I guarantee you many won’t be able to…

Hold on a second there, lol, I never say anything about easily besting Kira. (The fan in me would never stand for that, temporarily at least.) But in all seriousness, there's no reason why they can't have someone who can at least push Kira to the limit again, something like the first half of GS did. If you look at it from that perspective, then Kira loosing would be even more believable. And Kira might even learn from the fight (assuming he survived) to better himself (at fighting), rather than just getting a new mobile suit (or in addition to that). It all depends how the story is written, they can have a Kira-centric movie and still have Kira loose at least one fight.

Search Function your heart away to 2004-05 episode discussions and you will see indisputable proof of my efforts...

monstert can you please help me here and tell these people? I didn't delve deep? That's an embarrassing statement to me...

Did you forget a certain incidence in this forum that resulted in data loss?

[4Tran]

Alright, if I see any more sniping from anyone here on in, I'll be handing out Infractions.

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by Neku

Aha, it wasn't Stellar. It's her death, and that particular scene; which was why I pointed out that it could most probably be the song.

I can see why this appeals to viewers, but I disliked Stellar enough that her death and Kuwashima Houko's song didn't do much for me. Overall, I think of her character and her role in the story as a ill-conceived attempt to draw a parallel to Zeta.

Originally Posted by Neku

LOL. I would think that he would still be in -if there really is one-. He is, after all, one of the main characters regardless of being casted aside.

True enough, although using Shinn in any kind of significant role feels a bit like a bad idea. Then again, it's not as if the creators would make the Seed story I'd like to watch either (that'd be evil Lacus ).

Originally Posted by Neku

Your third theme reminds me of a quote by Kira... something along the lines of "if you do nothing because you thought it wouldn't help, you end up doing less than nothing, because nothing would change, and nothing would end".

It's probably just me, but I find the SEED series, especially Destiny, extremely inspiring.

Heh. Actually, all of my themes were more or less drawn from quotes by Kira.

Both in terms of theme and ambitious storytelling, Destiny is actually more impressive than any other Gundam show. However, their execution was off, and it in no way matched up to the potential of the show's ideas. It really doesn't help that Fukuda probably didn't have the talent to pull this kind of ambition off.

Originally Posted by wingdarkness

Listen you overzealous daywalker, a debate consists of arguments…Arguments can be fleshed out in a myriad of different and varying ways...Some can be taken strictly from timestamps (as requested by you and another Lacus-bot in this thread), some can be taken from overall perspectives or innuendos based on the anime itself (Then people can decide whether or not the argument I make is a good argument—I don’t have to tell you that more times than not THEY DO)…

Wrong. Arguments can be supported by either evidence or by lines of reasoning. Anything else does not work as support: not emotional pleading, not passive-aggressive innuendos and not attacking strawman. An attempt to apply any type of weight to such tactics is not only ludicrous, but verges on intellectual dishonesty. Do you have enough confidence in the strength of your arguments to think that they can stand up to any sort of critique?

By the way, the idea that the strength of an argument is dependent on who agrees with it is a bit on the laughable side as well.

[Foreshadow]

Originally Posted by 4Tran

By the way, the idea that the strength of an argument is dependent on who agrees with it is a bit on the laughable side as well.

Unfortunately, in many situations this is true, Including GSD as well. This might be cutting it but, Cagalli's decision to not participate was presented in a positive light by the show, making it the "Correct Decision". But that as we all know lead to Yuna and the council overruling her and siding with the AF. Even if something doesn't make sense logically, the public almost always decides the end result, in real life especially.

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by Foreshadow

Unfortunately, in many situations this is true, Including GSD as well. Cagalli's decision to not participate was presented in a positive light by the show, making it the "Correct Decision". But that as we all know lead to Yuna and the council overruling her and siding with the AF. Even if something doesn't make sense logically, the public almost always decides the end result.

Mayhaps, but my point is that just because one side wins the most support, that doesn't mean that it was on the basis of having the strongest argument. After all, it's quite possible to win by being dishonest, and dishonesty makes for poor arguments, not strong arguments.

I assume that you're referring to Cagalli not wanting to align Orb with the EA as "Cagalli's decision to not participate", but her actions were generally portrayed in a poor light in the early part of Destiny, and that's true even when she was trying to do the right thing. It even plays into the theme of "Wanting to do the right thing is important, but not enough." It's only her later actions that were shown in a truly positive light.

[Aquaman OS]

Cagalli was portrayed in a negative light because she said no and the council said yes, and rather than say "no I'm in charge here and we aren't siding with EA" she just kinda gives up and resigns herself to the EA and marrying Yuna so long as people in Orb appear to be happy. It's not until Orb people are in danger of being killed in the war that she actually is inspired to take action and by then its too late. She only lucked out that Todoka would suicide his ship into certain death to allow the Orb fleet to leave the battle field honorably, and even then it was with massive casualities. Then Cagalli has the spine to go and take back Orb but by then it is too late as they've got other issues. Fortunately everything sort of worked out in the end but it reflected poorly on Cagalli that she had to wait until people were dying before she was prompted to action.

[Neku]

Originally Posted by wingdarkness

Guess you’re gonna say promoting peace has nothing to do with what Requiem stands for as a symbol…Sighs…Dissapointing...

I am aware 4Tran has edited your post.
But where is your point.. really?

From the beginning till the end, I am saying that peace cannot be attained through Requiem. Threatening countries to succumb, destroying a nation due to opposition really isn't a symbol for peace. I'll also interpret for you about the "If" I said. I meant that if Durandal's objective is to achieve peace through Requiem, he is not. He is, instead, just waging war and indicating that he will rule with tyranny. Therefore, the term "lasting peace", was to mean that even if Durandal won the war, he will not achieve it eternally, and nor will it be real.

Originally Posted by 4Tran

I can see why this appeals to viewers, but I disliked Stellar enough that her death and Kuwashima Houko's song didn't do much for me. Overall, I think of her character and her role in the story as a ill-conceived attempt to draw a parallel to Zeta.

Uh oh.
I'm not a Gundam fan; never watched Zeta so I wouldn't know the comparison
Though I think Natarle's voice is wasted on Stellar. Don't dislike her as much as you do though. lol

True enough, although using Shinn in any kind of significant role feels a bit like a bad idea. Then again, it's not as if the creators would make the Seed story I'd like to watch either (that'd be evil Lacus ).

That would be epic. Evil Lacus! We'll probably have evil Haros too. XD
Though it wouldn't hurt to have a character that is evil, and is on par with Kira and Lacus in terms of skill and influence.

Heh. Actually, all of my themes were more or less drawn from quotes by Kira.

Both in terms of theme and ambitious storytelling, Destiny is actually more impressive than any other Gundam show. However, their execution was off, and it in no way matched up to the potential of the show's ideas. It really doesn't help that Fukuda probably didn't have the talent to pull this kind of ambition off.

I get your point.
But Fukuda seem to always screw up his sequels. Welp, at least he got his themes right

[Foreshadow]

Originally Posted by 4Tran

Mayhaps, but my point is that just because one side wins the most support, that doesn't mean that it was on the basis of having the strongest argument. After all, it's quite possible to win by being dishonest, and dishonesty makes for poor arguments, not strong arguments.

I assume that you're referring to Cagalli not wanting to align Orb with the EA as "Cagalli's decision to not participate", but her actions were generally portrayed in a poor light in the early part of Destiny, and that's true even when she was trying to do the right thing. It even plays into the theme of "Wanting to do the right thing is important, but not enough." It's only her later actions that were shown in a truly positive light.

Cagalli herself was put in a negative light, but the Decision itself was put in a positive light. Making the viewer question Cagalli's true motivation for the job, her decision being the Strong ("right") one in terms of the show, but the one that loses.
On the point of Cagalli, Why would a country even put an 18 year old up to the task of basically Prime Minister? Don't most countries have a rule for this? Even if she was basically a puppet prime minister, I would think at least some of the citizens would have a problem with this.

[bladeofdarkness]

what made GSD fail ?

Durandal getting hold of the Requiem
just like what happened with Schneizel and the damocles in code geass
whenever a magnificent bastard gets a hold of a superweapon, their IQ drops sharply by about 60 points

the phantom pain unit - full stop

the sharp drop in competence experienced by the minerva crew despite having shown themselves overwhelmingly powerful in earlier arcs

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by Neku

Uh oh.
I'm not a Gundam fan; never watched Zeta so I wouldn't know the comparison
Though I think Natarle's voice is wasted on Stellar. Don't dislike her as much as you do though. lol

I'm not really a Gundam fan either, but when Destiny was airing, everyone made the comparison, so I made the effort to hunt Zeta down. The Shinn-Stellar relationship is drawn right from Zeta, and I don't think that either of the relationships worked (although the Zeta one is popular beyond all reason).

As for Stellar's voice actress, Kuwashima Houko did both Natarle and Fllay in Seed - effectively delivering the best performance in the entire show. And what role did the creators give her as a reward? Stellar, a character who barely speaks; and almost never in complete sentences !

Originally Posted by Neku

That would be epic. Evil Lacus! We'll probably have evil Haros too. XD
Though it wouldn't hurt to have a character that is evil, and is on par with Kira and Lacus in terms of skill and influence.

The only way an evil Lacus (and it has to be Lacus) would work is if she's the protagonist and she ends up winning. Oh yeah, and Kira would have to be her final victim as well. Obviously, no Gundam show would do that, but one can dream .

Originally Posted by Foreshadow

Cagalli herself was put in a negative light, but the Decision itself was put in a positive light.

The rights and wrongs of whether to ally with the EA was really obvious, so how could deciding to not ally be anything but be correct?

Originally Posted by Foreshadow

Making the viewer question Cagalli's true motivation for the job, her decision being the Strong ("right") one in terms of the show, but the one that loses.

That's sort of correct, but it wasn't Cagalli's motivation to lead that was questioned; it was her ability to do so. And rightly so, since she was woefully unready to lead; and the position she was in was terrible from the get-go: all of her natural allies had little interest in working honestly with her.

Originally Posted by Foreshadow

On the point of Cagalli, Why would a country even put an 18 year old up to the task of basically Prime Minister? Don't most countries have a rule for this? Even if she was basically a puppet prime minister, I would think at least some of the citizens would have a problem with this.

Cagalli got to be the leader of Orb for much the same reason that Dubya got to be President - because Daddy used to be. Orb is an oligarchy, and it looks like the Atthas had been in power for a long time. So it would only make sense for the last Attha leader's only offspring to inherit his position. From a historical perspective, many leaders gained their postitions when they were young, and some of them managed to achieve greatness at a young age. It may not be all that common any more, but it's hardly unheard of.

[Foreshadow]

Originally Posted by 4Tran

The rights and wrongs of whether to ally with the EA was really obvious, so how could deciding to not ally be anything but be correct?

That was the point, the wrong but "stronger" argument won in that situation.

Originally Posted by 4Tran

That's sort of correct, but it wasn't Cagalli's motivation to lead that was questioned; it was her ability to do so. And rightly so, since she was woefully unready to lead; and the position she was in was terrible from the get-go: all of her natural allies had little interest in working honestly with her.

I Guess this one is based totally on perspective, I personally questioned her Motivation, because she gave in to Yuna and felt it was the only option and took the "easy" way out.

Originally Posted by 4Tran

Cagalli got to be the leader of Orb for much the same reason that Dubya got to be President - because Daddy used to be. Orb is an oligarchy, and it looks like the Atthas had been in power for a long time. So it would only make sense for the last Attha leader's only offspring to inherit his position. From a historical perspective, many leaders gained their postitions when they were young, and some of them managed to achieve greatness at a young age. It may not be all that common any more, but it's hardly unheard of.

I'm surprised that power would just be handed back to the Attha's just like that, With basically almost all the of the former rulers dead, i would expect an up and coming family to take control. And some unrest with another Attha "regime" with citizens that probably thought alot like Shinn.

[Neku]

Originally Posted by 4Tran

As for Stellar's voice actress, Kuwashima Houko did both Natarle and Fllay in Seed - effectively delivering the best performance in the entire show. And what role did the creators give her as a reward? Stellar, a character who barely speaks; and almost never in complete sentences !

Exactly.
But at least she didn't disappoint, and they probably see Stellar as the main character's girl who died so it was probably a better role already!

The only way an evil Lacus (and it has to be Lacus) would work is if she's the protagonist and she ends up winning. Oh yeah, and Kira would have to be her final victim as well. Obviously, no Gundam show would do that, but one can dream .

That sounds like Lelouch.
But that would be out of Lacus's character imo. She doesn't care about winning .. she just wants Kira

(though obviously she hasn't gotten THAT selfish yet)

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by Foreshadow

That was the point, the wrong but "stronger" argument won in that situation.

No it isn't. Cagalli didn't back down because the Seirans had the stronger argument, she did so because she was too unsure of herself. If we were to compare it to debating, Cagalli actually had the stronger argument, but she simply didn't know how to respond because her opponents were cheating.

Originally Posted by Foreshadow

I Guess this one is based totally on perspective, I personally questioned her Motivation, because she gave in to Yuna and felt it was the only option and took the "easy" way out.

Insecurity and inexperience don't really have anything to do with a lack of motivation though. Cagalli is actually extremely dedicated to Orb, and honestly wanted to do everything in her power to help her country.

Originally Posted by Foreshadow

I'm surprised that power would just be handed back to the Attha's just like that, With basically almost all the of the former rulers dead, i would expect an up and coming family to take control. And some unrest with another Attha "regime" with citizens that probably thought alot like Shinn.

Why would you think that? From Cagalli and Athrun's reactions, they were genuinely surprised at Shinn's outburst against her. It's as if it was the first time that they had heard such complaints. That's not a surprise really since Uzumi was lionized in Orb, and there isn't the slightest evidence that the people thought of him in anything but highly positive terms. Moreover, Shinn's anger is both irrational and poorly attributed - a fact that he himself sort of knows.

Originally Posted by Neku

Exactly.
But at least she didn't disappoint, and they probably see Stellar as the main character's girl who died so it was probably a better role already!

Well, it goes to the popularity of her Zeta counterpart as well. Then again, it's not as if there was any other female role that was more suited for her - Meer was obviously going to be played by Tanaka Rie, Lunamaria was better off played by a new voice, and Gladys would have meant playing yet another ship captain.

Originally Posted by Neku

But that would be out of Lacus's character imo. She doesn't care about winning .. she just wants Kira

(though obviously she hasn't gotten THAT selfish yet)

We've only seen Lacus' inner thought some 3 times in both Seed and Destiny, so who's to say that there isn't a lot of ambition underneath that pink hair? It's also quite obvious that she thinks a great deal about the wider world, and that she has no problems from keeping secrets from Kira (he didn't even know about Strike Freedom's existence until just before he saw it).

Oh, and an evil Lacus wouldn't be anything like Lelouch outside of a few very broad strokes.

[Aquaman OS]

Originally Posted by 4Tran

Why would you think that? From Cagalli and Athrun's reactions, they were genuinely surprised at Shinn's outburst against her. It's as if it was the first time that they had heard such complaints. That's not a surprise really since Uzumi was lionized in Orb, and there isn't the slightest evidence that the people thought of him in anything but highly positive terms.

That's another Cagalli weakness. Whenever anybody voices displeasure about Orb or Uzumi's ideals she just kinda freezes up and stares. As if the idea of someone not being happy with them was something uncomprehendable to her. It's not until she talks to the Fleet survivors and gets reassurance that yes people do believe in her fathers ideals for Orb that she's sort of back to her old self again.

[Foreshadow]

Originally Posted by 4Tran

No it isn't. Cagalli didn't back down because the Seirans had the stronger argument, she did so because she was too unsure of herself. If we were to compare it to debating, Cagalli actually had the stronger argument, but she simply didn't know how to respond because her opponents were cheating.

Exactly. She had the "stronger" argument but the side with more opinion backing it won. I think we're on different pages here, i was talking about a point i made earlier.

Originally Posted by 4Tran

Insecurity and inexperience don't really have anything to do with a lack of motivation though. Cagalli is actually extremely dedicated to Orb, and honestly wanted to do everything in her power to help her country.

You challenge her security and experience, i challenge her motivation. She didn't explore the other options she could have done and simply chose the easiest, I personally call on her motivation, you on something else. It's really a matter of opinion.

Originally Posted by 4Tran

Why would you think that? From Cagalli and Athrun's reactions, they were genuinely surprised at Shinn's outburst against her. It's as if it was the first time that they had heard such complaints. That's not a surprise really since Uzumi was lionized in Orb, and there isn't the slightest evidence that the people thought of him in anything but highly positive terms. Moreover, Shinn's anger is both irrational and poorly attributed - a fact that he himself sort of knows.

Because generally people think to save the lives of their citizens above all else. And Uzumi blew up half the island, and left his people to a occupation which kills Coordinators. I would bet most of the citizens would be upset. Then again this IS Gundam. Logic doesn't always apply.

[kakakka]

She had the "stronger" argument but the side with more opinion backing it won.

You mean more people backing it?

[Foreshadow]

Originally Posted by kakakka

You mean more people backing it?

Yes, I used opinion because i was addressing a point about that earlier.