[Manga] Who is Tobi?

[itachi-san314]

Originally Posted by Hiking_Bear

Either way, you have to choose between two unproven speculations
A. Madara being able to transfer a portion of his chakra into a newborn baby

I actually never thought of the newborn baby angle. that's also very interesting. obito wouldnt have known he was present in his mind just like naruto didnt know about his parents... nice thinking even if it turns out to not be what happened.

B. Madara having an apprentice capable of controlling the Kyuubi

I choose A. for the reasons given above, along with the fact that option A. has been done in the series before. Minato and Kushina transferred a portion of their chakra into a newborn Naruto.

me too. aside from your explanation about the apprentice not having had training time controlling the kyuubi it just wouldn't be all that satisfying for tobi to be a character we were never aware of.

madara's brother could have had experience controlling the kyuubi though which we were never made aware of and then of course the rikudo sennin had experience. just sayin'. I dont really buy those people as being tobi, but from that standpoint they could be

[Akashin]

Originally Posted by Hiking_Bear

What makes the apprentice idea not plausible for me is that Tobi was able to control the 9-tails. I do think that if there were another Uchiha capable of controlling the 9-tails by his own power then we would have heard of him. But even if, somehow Madara had an apprentice that learned the ability to control the 9-tails, he would never have been able to try out or test that power on the 9-tails, since the 9-tails was sealed shortly after the battle at the VotE. The day of Naruto's birth would have been the first time Tobi would have ever controlled Kurama. And he seemed more experienced than that, as if the power wasn't new to him. For example, he wasn't like Sasuke when he first tried to use Amaterasu against B. Plus, the idea that an unknown apprentice could have fooled Minato, Jiraiya, and Itachi doesn't sit well with me.

True enough. There are holes in Tobi being somebody other than Madara, just as there are holes in your/itachi's theory. That's what I really didn't like about the whole Tobi not being Madara reveal; him being Madara made perfect sense up until then.

Either way, you have to choose between two unproven speculations
A. Madara being able to transfer a portion of his chakra into a newborn baby
or
B. Madara having an apprentice capable of controlling the Kyuubi

I choose A. for the reasons given above, along with the fact that option A. has been done in the series before. Minato and Kushina transferred a portion of their chakra into a newborn Naruto.

What's all this about an apprentice? I never said any such thing. All that needs to be possible is that somebody else can control the Kyuubi (which for all we know any sufficiently evolved Sharingan can allow, unless I'm mistaken). What needs to be proven is that there was somebody close enough to Madara to be able to perfectly impersonate him (such as Izuna, or somebody equally close to him). And personally, I find that easier to buy than Madara being able to jump bodies. At least for now.

Also, Minato and Kushina never did what you're claiming. They put a portion of their chakra into Naruto's seal which, you know, Minato made to begin with. I'd like to think that's entirely different.

[LeaD36]

Btw if tobi has actually been mistranslated and was to-obi instead, it could totally be an anagram for obi-to
well just my 2cents

[Sharfan]

Originally Posted by itachi-san314

well please let me add to your list just to put it all in one post =)

4. eye placement of tobi and kakashi
5. tobi's right arm is synthetic as seen in his fight with fuu and torune. same side of obito that was crushed
6. tobi's body is entirely covered to possibly hide any damage/repairs
7. their names are near anagrams
8. kakashi and tobi have now met 4 times (at least. I may be missing 1)
9. tobi went out of his way to reveal to kakashi that he had a sharingan when they first met.
10. they have the same sharingan dimensional technique
11. tobi wants to 'become complete' possibly eluding to needing his old madara body
12. madara developed rinnegan before he died so obito's body dying is no problem
13. madara seems to have MPD or at least a very playful side which echoes obito's personality of not taking things seriously. he also has 2 different voices
14. obito's eyes proved to be very valuable as MS capable so he would make an ideal body to use in this interim period between madara's death and his ET resurrection
15. just thought of this one, but people may ask 'why would madara wait to reunite with his body?' for one, he was going to use pain to do it, but then couldn't. we dont know if he knows ET but probably not. also, he was so surprised when kabuto showed it to him in the first place and asked 'where did you get that?' so even if he knows ET or could have used orochimaru to do it, he possibly didnt even know where his own body was buried

I agree with everything completely, but the bold. The fact is that, even when someone unlocks the MS, the technique they can use in each eye is very different. In the two cases that we know of for certain, the Uchiha could use a different technique in each eye, and could use Susanoo when both eyes are used together. At least in Itachi's case, his right eye could use Amaterasu and his left could use Tsukuyomi.

Now, Sasuke's a little different. His eye tech's appear at first to only be a reflection of Itachi's. But,I honestly don't recall him using Tsukuyomi once since attaining the MS. I do however (though, it's been a while, so forgive me if I get something wrong) recall reading that he instead developed the ability to extinguish the flames with his right eye. Thus, he ended up with two related, but different, eye abilities. I'm not sure if this is a genetic thing, or if it all depends on another/other factor/s (ie how the MS is activated, what technique you attempt, what you need at the time, etc).

But, if I assume that it's genetic which technique you develop, and it depends on the particular Uchiha that the eye is developed in, a lot would be explained in the Tobi/Obito discussion. Like Sasuke, Obito's original eyes could both have the potential for space/time techniques. So, when Kakashi developed the MS with the eye he had, it was able to use the particular space time technique on everything but himself, being able to send anything he sees anywhere he wants.

Like in Sasuke's case, however, the other eye (which I am going to assume that Tobi had) would develop a similar but different technique. Instead, this one would be focused completely on teleporting the user anywhere he wants, even taking whatever he is touching with him. Obviously, this would coincide very well with Sasuke's MS precedent, and give a clean explanation for Tobi at least having Obito's eye. Notice I didn't say body, as a very easy explanation could be that Tobi just extracted Obito's eye and added it to his collection.

I, for one, believe to an extent in the Tobi/Obito theory, but base my belief on what I percieve as sufficient evidence. Also, in the case of the MS looking the same if it were from the same person: I'm pretty sure that they would, but the thing is that it's never shown Tobi's MS. I'm not saying that he hasn't used it, only that it hasn't shown it. Why would Kishi decide that he didn't want anyone to see what it looks like? He could either be supporting this theory, or leaving things open so that more people would believe this. He's a master at storytelling, so whatever the real answer is will probably hit us out of left field, but as of now this the theory that I put a lot of stock in.

[Hiking_Bear]

Originally Posted by Akashin

What's all this about an apprentice? I never said any such thing. All that needs to be possible is that somebody else can control the Kyuubi (which for all we know any sufficiently evolved Sharingan can allow, unless I'm mistaken).

On page 3 of Chapter 458, the Mizukage says
"Just because the beasts have been stolen is no reason to be afraid. It takes time, knowledge, and skill to be able to control them" And Danzo said that the only ones who were ever able to control the bijuu were Hashirama, Madara, Yagura, and Killer B.

What needs to be proven is that there was somebody close enough to Madara to be able to perfectly impersonate him (such as Izuna, or somebody equally close to him). And personally, I find that easier to buy than Madara being able to jump bodies. At least for now.

This person would be an accomplice because Madara is the one who came up with the Moon's Eye Plan. And Edo-Madara seemed to know that the masked man was the person that was suppoed to carry out that plan.

Also, Minato and Kushina never did what you're claiming. They put a portion of their chakra into Naruto's seal which, you know, Minato made to begin with. I'd like to think that's entirely different.

I claimed they put a portion of their chakra into Naruto, and that's exactly what they did. How can you even say that it's "entirely different"
I think the idea has nice symmetry (which I know Kishi likes to utilize in his storytelling)

Madara, before dying, puts his chakra into Obito and entrusts him to carry out the Moon's Eye Plan

Minato, before dying, puts his chakra into Naruto and entrusts him with the power to bring peace to the ninja world and stop the masked man.

Another thing I like about Obito theory is that Minato final fight was against his student. It's in line with other fatal student-teacher fights such as Sarutobi vs Orochimaru, Jiraiya vs Nagato, Chiyo vs Sasori

[Akashin]

Originally Posted by Hiking_Bear

On page 3 of Chapter 458, the Mizukage says
"Just because the beasts have been stolen is no reason to be afraid. It takes time, knowledge, and skill to be able to control them" And Danzo said that the only ones who were ever able to control the bijuu were Hashirama, Madara, Yagura, and Killer B.

Indeed. Not sure how this disputes what you quoted, though.

This person would be an accomplice because Madara is the one who came up with the Moon's Eye Plan. And Edo-Madara seemed to know that the masked man was the person that was suppoed to carry out that plan.

Again, yes, I agree. You didn't say accomplice though, you said apprentice. If accomplice is what you meant, then I agree.

I claimed they put a portion of their chakra into Naruto, and that's exactly what they did. How can you even say that it's "entirely different"

I think the idea has nice symmetry (which I know Kishi likes to utilize in his storytelling)

Madara, before dying, puts his chakra into Obito and entrusts him to carry out the Moon's Eye Plan

Minato, before dying, puts his chakra into Naruto and entrusts him with the power to bring peace to the ninja world and stop the masked man.

It's entirely different because what Minato did was alter the seal so that a copy of himself (presumably made of chakra) could appear within Naruto's seal, and had Kushina put in some of her chakra for the same reason. The difference between this and pumping chakra into somebody and taking them over is that what Minato did was most likely a function he placed in Naruto's seal, and that what they put their chakra into was the seal (which was already made of chakra), not Naruto himself.

The idea does have nice symmetry, though. I'll give you that.

Another thing I like about Obito theory is that Minato final fight was against his student. It's in line with other fatal student-teacher fights such as Sarutobi vs Orochimaru, Jiraiya vs Nagato, Chiyo vs Sasori

This I really agree with though, if only in concept. I don't really think it counts as a part of the student-teacher fights thing if Madara is controlling Obito, though. The core idea really appeals to me, though, and if there's one reason I could really get behind Tobi being Obito, it's this. Well, that and the fun idea of the main antagonist being a corrupted version of a Naruto-like character.

[itachi-san314]

Originally Posted by Akashin

True enough. There are holes in Tobi being somebody other than Madara, just as there are holes in your/itachi's theory. That's what I really didn't like about the whole Tobi not being Madara reveal; him being Madara made perfect sense up until then.

It didnt make perfect sense to me since madara must have had to do something to extend his life past a feasibly long lifespan. tobi (being a living and pure madara) would have had to be a generation+ older than sarutobi which never quite made sense to me and was often brought up by knowledgable characters like oonoki and minato as seeming to be impossible. they only bought it because of tobi's capabilities

[Akashin]

Originally Posted by itachi-san314

It didnt make perfect sense to me since madara must have had to do something to extend his life past a feasibly long lifespan. tobi (being a living and pure madara) would have had to be a generation+ older than sarutobi which never quite made sense to me and was often brought up by knowledgable characters like oonoki and minato as seeming to be impossible. they only bought it because of tobi's capabilities

And, as a reader, so did I. We didn't know how Madara could have prolonged his lifespan, but up until we were told, "lol nope, he's not Madara after all," we were to believe he had somehow managed to do just that. And personally, I prefer trying to figure out how Madara managed to prolong his lifespan over figuring out how somebody utterly fooled the world by pulling off a flawless impersonation of Madara (unless, of course, we go by your theory where he is Madara by proxy).

I'm not sure how many people disliked that reveal, but there are few things the manga has done lately that bugged me more, to be honest.

[itachi-san314]

Originally Posted by Akashin

And, as a reader, so did I. We didn't know how Madara could have prolonged his lifespan, but up until we were told, "lol nope, he's not Madara after all," we were to believe he had somehow managed to do just that. And personally, I prefer trying to figure out how Madara managed to prolong his lifespan over figuring out how somebody utterly fooled the world by pulling off a flawless impersonation of Madara (unless, of course, we go by your theory where he is Madara by proxy).

I'm not sure how many people disliked that reveal, but there are few things the manga has done lately that bugged me more, to be honest.

I can certainly imagine what bugged you more lol... I almost stopped reading all together when the ET first began and we were forced to see all those fine characters trampled on and trolled all over the place... I mean come on... what are the odds of Sai meeting his ET 'older brother' Shin? .. as always, pretty good in the narutoverse

back on topic though, I was quite pleased that the trump card was madara which i suspected since it fits the theory

[Ero-Senn1n]

The only good reason for Tobi being Obito would be if Tobi actually wanted to bring peace to the world with his fake war. One can list a dozen of "facts" that he thinks add up to his theory of Tobi being Obito, but all these do not matter if he doesn't find a way to make that reasonable in the plot and make it coherent with Obito's character, as it was meant by the author. And Obito was meant to be a hero, his words are cited by Kakashi in the very beginning of the manga, and as it turns out he defined Kakashi's current view of the world (Similarily to Shisui's influence on Itachi).
So it cannot be that such a hero simply becomes Madara's sidekick in his quest for world domination, or that he wants to dominate the world himself. That would completely ruin Obito's hero status and in exchange it wouldn't give us anything. So i think the only way this could happen would be if Obito's real plan was that such a ninja alliance is created, and as a result world peace is achieved, and then he would accept to die as the "evil" guy (similarily to Itachi who accepted to be blamed for what happened). But even this version is very unlikely, because we see that Tobi's character is quite evil, he does "evil" things that wouldn't be necessary if he was secretly working on such a world peace plan.

Also Madara couldn't have turned Obito like he did with Nagato because there was no hate or anger in Obito when he died, he was happy he could finally become real friend of Kakashi and was happy to save his team members by sacrificing himself, there would be no reason for him to turn against Kakashi. So if we can't find any good reason then it's impossible that he was turned into Tobi.

[itachi-san314]

Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n

The only good reason for Tobi being Obito would be if Tobi actually wanted to bring peace to the world with his fake war. One can list a dozen of "facts" that he thinks add up to his theory of Tobi being Obito, but all these do not matter if he doesn't find a way to make that reasonable in the plot and make it coherent with Obito's character, as it was meant by the author. And Obito was meant to be a hero, his words are cited by Kakashi in the very beginning of the manga, and as it turns out he defined Kakashi's current view of the world (Similarily to Shisui's influence on Itachi).
So it cannot be that such a hero simply becomes Madara's sidekick in his quest for world domination, or that he wants to dominate the world himself. That would completely ruin Obito's hero status and in exchange it wouldn't give us anything. So i think the only way this could happen would be if Obito's real plan was that such a ninja alliance is created, and as a result world peace is achieved, and then he would accept to die as the "evil" guy (similarily to Itachi who accepted to be blamed for what happened). But even this version is very unlikely, because we see that Tobi's character is quite evil, he does "evil" things that wouldn't be necessary if he was secretly working on such a world peace plan.

Also Madara couldn't have turned Obito like he did with Nagato because there was no hate or anger in Obito when he died, he was happy he could finally become real friend of Kakashi and was happy to save his team members by sacrificing himself, there would be no reason for him to turn against Kakashi. So if we can't find any good reason then it's impossible that he was turned into Tobi.

well on a purely general story basis I can think of 2 more reasons for the obito outcome.
1) as was mentioned before, one of the biggest themes in naruto is the student-teacher and the student-student relationship which would fit very nicely with minato's clash with tobi and kakashi's continuous meetings with him.

2) if tobi is a mental mixture of madara and obito. and assuming madara has evil intentions, then perhaps obito is just going along with it in a phony way and intends to foil madara's plan at the last minute. so the 'evil' you speak of is necessary to fool madara into trusting whatever is left of obito's personality (I also suspect that sasuke could have a similar agenda)

[ShiroNeko]

I think that this "Tobi" character.. has no name evidence below...

[Hiking_Bear]

Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n

The only good reason for Tobi being Obito would be if Tobi actually wanted to bring peace to the world with his fake war. One can list a dozen of "facts" that he thinks add up to his theory of Tobi being Obito, but all these do not matter if he doesn't find a way to make that reasonable in the plot and make it coherent with Obito's character, as it was meant by the author.

As far as I'm concerned, Obito Theory involves Madara's mind and chakra taking over Obito's body. In that case, it doesn't matter if Tobi's ambitions line up with what Obito would do, because they should really be Madara's ambitions anyway.

Even though Tobi seems to be 90% Madara's personality, there have been hints of a second personality. When Tobi was first introduced, he seemed kind of boyish and juvenile in his interaction with Deidara. I also find it a little peculiar that Tobi didn't go after Kakashi. Consider that Tobi killed the Uchiha Clan and preserved their Sharingan. The only Uchiha that were spared were Itachi (Tobi's apprentice at the time), Sasuke (protected by Itachi). But there are other Sharingan that Tobi didn't take. Danzo had several including Shisui's, while Kakashi had one. Danzo kept his concealed for the most part. However, Tobi did eventually go after Danzo. But why didn't Tobi take Kakashi's eye? If Tobi likes to collect powerful eyes, he should have gone after Kakashi's. But he didn't. Maybe Tobi is reluctant to kill Kakashi? Food for thought.

[itachi-san314]

^ nice point. food for thought indeed. he also went out of his way to reveal to seemingly only kakashi that he had a sharingan (when stopping team konoha from interfering with the itachi fight) there is no tactical reason to do that seeing as how he wears a mask and was keeping it hidden from them during their entire altercation

[Akashin]

Originally Posted by Hiking_Bear

As far as I'm concerned, Obito Theory involves Madara's mind and chakra taking over Obito's body. In that case, it doesn't matter if Tobi's ambitions line up with what Obito would do, because they should really be Madara's ambitions anyway.

Pretty sure his point was less about whether or not Obito being Tobi is consistent with his character and more about how pointless deconstructing Obito's character without a good reason would be. Seriously, what is gained from Tobi being Obito controlled by Madara? If that were true, why exactly couldn't the middle man be cut out and have Madara be Tobi?

I agree with Ero-Senn1n. If Obito is going to be the one behind Tobi's mask, I'd like there to be a meaningful reason behind it. Being controlled by Madara isn't a meaningful reason, nor does it really serve a point (other than continuing that whole student-teacher thing, which I'm leery to say would count if Obito were being controlled by Madara).

Consider that Tobi killed the Uchiha Clan and preserved their Sharingan. The only Uchiha that were spared were Itachi (Tobi's apprentice at the time), Sasuke (protected by Itachi). But there are other Sharingan that Tobi didn't take. Danzo had several including Shisui's, while Kakashi had one. Danzo kept his concealed for the most part. However, Tobi did eventually go after Danzo. But why didn't Tobi take Kakashi's eye? If Tobi likes to collect powerful eyes, he should have gone after Kakashi's. But he didn't. Maybe Tobi is reluctant to kill Kakashi? Food for thought.

If I had to hazard a guess, it would be that he had to maintain a low profile. Working with Itachi and harvesting Sharingan from Uchiha that were on Konoha's execution block anyway is one thing, since he can get in and get out without notice. But going after Kakashi as well? Kakashi suddenly dying/losing his Sharingan would draw attention, which was directly against what Tobi was doing. You do have a possible point, but I'm not sure if it holds on its own.

[itachi-san314]

Originally Posted by Akashin

Pretty sure his point was less about whether or not Obito being Tobi is consistent with his character and more about how pointless deconstructing Obito's character without a good reason would be. Seriously, what is gained from Tobi being Obito controlled by Madara? If that were true, why exactly couldn't the middle man be cut out and have Madara be Tobi?

his lifespan coming to an end would be a good reason

If I had to hazard a guess, it would be that he had to maintain a low profile. Working with Itachi and harvesting Sharingan from Uchiha that were on Konoha's execution block anyway is one thing, since he can get in and get out without notice. But going after Kakashi as well? Kakashi suddenly dying/losing his Sharingan would draw attention, which was directly against what Tobi was doing. You do have a possible point, but I'm not sure if it holds on its own.

he met kakashi within minutes before revealing himself to the ninja world as 'madara' and since tobi has revealed himself he has met kakashi after the danzo fight. he's not staying in the shadows anymore. if he wanted kakashi's eye he would have taken it by now. the question is why he wouldn't want a MS eye when he is clearly an eye collector

[Mateus]

^
Has Tobi been shown to know about Kakashi's special MS?

[Akashin]

Originally Posted by itachi-san314

his lifespan coming to an end would be a good reason

No it's not. His lifespan coming to an end is indeed a good reason for Madara to take over Obito, but that's not what I was talking about. What I meant was, what does the story gain from having its antagonist be Obito under Madara's control? What exactly does that bring to the story that no other possible identity would? That is where I agreed with Ero-Senn1n; if it turned out Tobi was Obito and that Obito were fighting to bring world peace (unlikely given the current scope of his character), that would be a good reason. Because, as I've said several times, that would introduce the idea of the antagonist being a corrupted Naruto-esque character, which would just be a fun route to go (especially after Itachi's recent cryptic claims of what could happen to Naruto if he keeps trying to do everything himself).

Madara needing a new body isn't a good reason to make Obito the antagonist, in and of itself. It's a justification for going that route, but it's not a good reason on its own.

he met kakashi within minutes before revealing himself to the ninja world as 'madara' and since tobi has revealed himself he has met kakashi after the danzo fight. he's not staying in the shadows anymore. if he wanted kakashi's eye he would have taken it by now. the question is why he wouldn't want a MS eye when he is clearly an eye collector

Are we talking about two different things here? I was under the impression we were debating why Tobi didn't take Kakashi's eye while collecting eyes during the massacre (which is indeed odd, but I went with it). Any time after that, well, that's entirely different than what I was talking about. No reason he couldn't have gone after Kakashi's eye any time after that.

[haegar]

I dunno about this whole Obito stuff... but just trying to find some random reason why Tobi would leave Kakashi his eye ... he did want to have Sasuske, for whatever part of his plan, and he did want Sasuske to grow into his powers, so maybe Kakashi and his eye weren't hunted down so that Sasuske could have a teacher using sharingan so Sasuske could observe how to use it?

bit of a far shot, but oh well ...

[Hiking_Bear]

Originally Posted by Akashin

Pretty sure his point was less about whether or not Obito being Tobi is consistent with his character and more about how pointless deconstructing Obito's character without a good reason would be. Seriously, what is gained from Tobi being Obito controlled by Madara? If that were true, why exactly couldn't the middle man be cut out and have Madara be Tobi?

I agree with Ero-Senn1n. If Obito is going to be the one behind Tobi's mask, I'd like there to be a meaningful reason behind it. Being controlled by Madara isn't a meaningful reason, nor does it really serve a point (other than continuing that whole student-teacher thing, which I'm leery to say would count if Obito were being controlled by Madara).

If we're purely talking about the plot purpose of Obito being behind the mask, then it would serve a huge purpose for Kakashi's storyline. When Kakashi was first killed by Pain, he met with his dad in the afterlife and it brought closure to that aspect of Kakashi's past. Obito was also pivotal character in Kakashi's life, and one of Kakashi's regrets from that time was that he put the mission before his friends and ended up losing one of them. If Tobi = Obito, then it gives Kakashi a second chance to save Obito. I also come back to the idea of parallelism. The idea that Kakashi would save Obito from Madara's control would run parallel to Naruto's plot, since Naruto is trying to do the same for Sasuke.