sola - Episode 12 Discussion / Poll

[stonedzombie]

Originally Posted by Ascaloth

And my predictions for Episode 13?

Morimiya Aono is a regular girl. She lives in a large house (with her parents/alone, because her parents are away on business), and her hobbies include taking photos of the sky, and collecting weird dolls. She goes to school with her best friend Ishizuki Mana, and teaches the art of origami to the latter's imouto Koyori. We see some funny scenes, including the infamous Koyori head-chop for whatever reasons. As far as she knows, she's just a normal teenage girl; but she has no memories of who she was, nor of Yorito or Matsuri. And she's happy the way she is.

In the end, as the sun is setting, Aono returns home. In the distance, we see a young couple who looks strangely familiar......




EDIT: Wow. A gutter-voting silent troll aside, I'm the lowest voter of this episode.

dude, you need to be a writer..

[rimaa]

I cant see how the ending will be any good unless someone dies

[Sorrow-K]

Unpredictable my ass. Kyuusai had this pegged a fortnight ago and others (myself included) agreed it was the most likely path, given the characters. Expect a cookie in your direction.

Ok, this show has lost me. I can no longer see enough positives in it to say it's better than anything average. I mean, sure, we finally got the character background, but it's all too late, and it just wasn't engrossing enough for me to find a reason to care about these characters. Hell, it wasn't even properly detailed. The setting of Aono, Matsuri and Yorito's first meeting was just a background, and it was so arbitrary that they could have been anywhere, in any time, and it wouldn't have made a difference. We still know virtually nothing about these individual characters themselves, just the bare necessary information to understand their relationships... hell, I'd say a lot of their emotions for one another are almost arbitrary as well; I mean, we can see the girls both love Yorito, but why? The whole thing just feels as if it hasn't been properly fleshed out... and, by proxy, the same thing can be said about these characters.

Speaking of characters that haven't been properly fleshed out, when did Yorito decide he wanted to die. Even after he found out he was an illusion, it never seemed as if he rued life as he claimed in this episode, and I couldn't see any obvious reason why he wanted to end his existence, even he wasn't real. And what happened to Matsuri's "I don't care if you're an illusion/you are "you/[insert tacky dialogue here]" of just a few episodes ago? The sudden and drastic change from this to "omg we have to kill Matsuri and change Aono back to human to save Yorito from his constant living hell" is incredibly jarring and inconsistent.

Most of the time with this series, it feels like the plot twists are done purely for the sake of having plot twists, rather than to tell an engaging story with sympathetic characters, and that's cheap story telling, if you ask me. It feels as if the strategy with the story telling is for frequent, short term, sudden impact rather than a longer lasting and more engaging approach that keeps the audience absorbed via a layered and complex story, with layered and complex characters. Anyway, as I've said earlier, what good are all these twists and turns when there's not much reason to care about these characters anyway.

Originally Posted by Kaoru Chujo

Spoiler for ep12:

...why and how the film of the sky started up when it did. Who did that? Was it Matsuri? How?

It looks now as if Aono will be left alone, but I look forward to yet another twist in the final episode.

Originally Posted by Omniscient

Spoiler:

Sometime during the fight earlier (18:21 mark), an electric current started flowing to the movie projector. I assume that it reached the blue sky part right as Matsuri was approaching the other two.

DEM. Electric currents don't just start by themselves, and films showing blue skies don't just suddenly roll just as three people that have a deep, personal link with the sky are about to go through the defining event of their lives. It's seriously disappointing that this series has had to resort to so many DEMs, but, really, it's just another flaw in a list of many in this show.

Barring an unforseeable miracle in the final ep, I think my verdict of this series will be something along the lines of "melodramatic tripe, with bland, poorly fleshed out characters and an inconsistent plot". I'm incredibly disappointed with this show.

[Skane]

Harsh, but perhaps, not totally unwarranted. Personally, my overall opinion of the series is still very cordial. I readily concede that there has been flaws though, and I get the nagging feeling that the scriptwriters did not prepare the storyboard properly prior to the series' production, which led to problems for the episodes after the mid-point.
~~~~ ~~~~

That aside, it has been bugging me on how Aono has been the proverbial punching bag in sola. At times, it feels like she is being hounded by an Evangelist.

"Relax, I know what's best for you."
"Get away from me, you psycho bitch!"

Matsuri's "Holier Than Thou" attitude is a bit hard to swallow, and her sudden departure from her pacifist leanings is brain-numbing. Bringing Aono back to life was a mistake? Maybe, but killing Aono is a mistake too!

Two Wrongs Do Not Make A Right!

Aono was not exactly going on a murdering rampage and committing crimes against humanity. She lost her suicidal tendencies and actually attempted to lead a normal life, Paper-Golem Yorito aside.

She made friends, allowed Yorito to have free thought, and lived a peaceful life in general; and then Matsuri came.

Oh sure... Aono lost some self-control, but did she kill Matsuri? No. Did she reset Yorito? No. Did she force her way through Mana to get to Yorito? No.

No, no, no, no.

She did not even take advantage of Matsuri's stabbing to finish her off. There were so many opportunities where Aono could have taken the darkened path and become the witch that so many people seem to be fond of painting her as, but she did not, and that is something to seriously take note of.

She already SURRENDERED Yorito to Matsuri, but even that was not enough for Matsuri? GOOD FREAKING GRIEF! Oh no, instead, Miss Can-Do-No-Wrong had to aggravate Aono into fighting her. By the grace of Aiur! Why, Matsuri, why?
~~~~ ~~~~

Seriousness aside, some light-hearted speculation.

[What If...]

As Matsuri plunges the sword towards Aono, Aono smiles and shifts her body so that the sword will hit Yorito as well. The pair are shocked as Aono dissipates into a pile of paper. Another clone!

Struck by the sword while it was infused with the essence of Matsuri's life, Yorito becomes human while Matsuri dies. Meanwhile, Aono smiles in the darkness somewhere else and retains her Yaka powers.

The epilogue shows Aono leading a normal life with Mana and Koyori once again, while Yorito wonders who that girl with a sky umbrella is in his photo album.
~~~~ ~~~~

Cheers.

[Ascaloth]

In the earlier episodes of this series, I had wondered why Sorrow-K was being so needlessly harsh towards Sola, and there were several times when I was tempted to shift into HARUHI-MODE and start one of my infamous arguments with him. Nevertheless, I held back because he had a pretty strong argument for his views, and I agreed with him on quite a few points. I had a more optimistic view on Sola because, the way I saw it, the series still had quite a few episodes to cover everything that it needed to cover, so I was more willing to give it a chance.

At this point in time though, I feel like I have little choice but to fall in line on Sorrow-K's side. With all the time it had at its disposal, Nomad blew it all on the unimportant bits, and didn't give nearly enough time to the parts which mattered. It is a crying shame; to see a premise with so much potential go to such waste. What could have been a great tragic story, became instead an average action flick. I wouldn't call this a $unrise-class trainwreck, but sure as hell, it's become something of a disappointment to me. Decent does not do justice to what could have been great.

I don't think Episode 13, no matter how it ends this series, will greatly change my impression of Sola. Therefore, keeping in mind that I took two full weeks to write my huge-ass Final Critique for Kanon 2006, I think I'll start on the Sola Final Critique now, so I can post it up just in time when the Final Impressions thread opens.

[Tom Bombadil]

Originally Posted by Ascaloth

And my predictions for Episode 13?

Morimiya Aono is a regular girl. She lives in a large house (with her parents/alone, because her parents are away on business), and her hobbies include taking photos of the sky, and collecting weird dolls.

Add kicking vending machines to that list and I would be happy to see it ends this way.

[Deathkillz]

oh how i just love to see matsuri's repuation for being right crumble into tiny pieces...likewise how aono is turning out to be the victim this time round ~ (though everyone must have forgotten about what happened to matsuri beforehand or maybe dont care? )
i still say that its out of character for matsuri to be doing such things...but if it was yorito's idea the maybe that guy isnt all good after all ~ im torn between thinking that matsuri decided to change her plan or maybe that was the plan in the first place...the "lets disappear" together part could also mean death together (seen as yorito will be nomore when aono loses her yaka powers)...

epilogue ~ aono is given a second life (heartbreaking end is about 90% methinks O.o)

Originally Posted by Skane

~~~~ ~~~~

Seriousness aside, some light-hearted speculation.

[What If...]

As Matsuri plunges the sword towards Aono, Aono smiles and shifts her body so that the sword will hit Yorito as well. The pair are shocked as Aono dissipates into a pile of paper. Another clone!

Struck by the sword while it was infused with the essence of Matsuri's life, Yorito becomes human while Matsuri dies. Meanwhile, Aono smiles in the darkness somewhere else and retains her Yaka powers.

The epilogue shows Aono leading a normal life with Mana and Koyori once again, while Yorito wonders who that girl with a sky umbrella is in his photo album.
~~~~ ~~~~

Cheers.

would have worked if yorito was a yaka (but i must admit you had me going for a minute there )

[orion]

Yeah, it's hard to see Yorito and Matsuri pulling out of this one alive. Maybe, Mayuko has a deux ex hidden in her rabbit doll.

I agree with Skane. 2 wrongs do not make a right. Aono being the only one left alive without friends, family or a home just doesn't seem right imo.

Oh well, here's hoping for a miracle.

[Mirrinus]

I'm in agreement with a lot of you guys on this page. I find it difficult to like or care for the 3 main characters, so I honestly just don't feel engaged to find out what happens at the end. I think what really drove the final nail into the coffin on this one was the dearth of information concerning what happened 400 years ago or whenever, back during Yorito and Aono's former life as humans. They could have pulled something like the Summer arc of AIR, which I thought was pretty well done. I would have loved to see that for Sola. But no, we're given a few meager clips blabbing about Yaka sacrifices that left more questions than answers. Why was Aono chosen to be the sacrifice? How did Matsuri and Aono become friends? How did Yorito know where to find them? How did Yorito know that Aono was still even alive? Where is my feudal japan slice of life? Why does Matsuri love Yorito? What was Yorito doing in that house when he was killed? When something as important as their backstory is not properly explained, it's no longer tragic: it's just confusing.

I also personally don't find suicide to be all that tragic. I think it's more moving to watch a person press on despite overwhelming adversity both without and within. When a character just decides to give up and die, I tend to lose a lot of respect for them. That's not tragic; that's just pitiful (there's an important difference). It's even worse when I don't even know why they want to die. As Sorrow-K has pointed out, this show has been rather vague and inconsistant with explaining why Yorito wants to die. Is it to force Aono to move on with her life? Is it because he accepts that he's already dead and doesn't want to live on anymore? Is it because he just wants to take the wimpy lead male stereotype to a new height?

I admit, I rather liked Sola's premise, and I still love Takeshi and Mayuko. But honestly, the Yorito/Matsuri/Aono dynamic just isn't working for me...they're just lucky I'm a sucker for paper user battles.

[Nemesis2124]

Well, I'm glad that people are finally starting to see Matsuri's true character. Not as some "epitome of benevolence", but as a sad person whose actions are driven by her deep-rooted darkness. One could say that she exists on that same plane of gray that Aono does. And frankly, that's part of why I like this show.

Not that I blame anyone for not realizing earlier, mind you. Throughout the show, character development has been rather subtle and open to interpretation, so I think I may have just picked the right straw.

On another note though, I can't say I hold ill-will towards Yorito. The knowledge that your own will is essentially a lie isn't something I can imagine anyone taking very well. So, I don't think there's anything that strange about his decision in and of itself. However, like xat mentioned, it does seem like his resolve came a bit too quickly. Time issue I wager, but you can't win them all I suppose.

[Sorrow-K]

I think a few of us set expectations too high simply because there was a Kanon staffer on-board, and the premise had a lot of potential... but the reason why Kanon and Air are so special is because well executed visual novel conversions are rare. It's reality that we aren't going to see titles in this genre as good as those particular ones every season... which is all the more reason why those particular titles deserve all the acclaim they get.

I also feel that, in the last few episodes, seeing these not-so sympathetic lead characters has made me appreciate the side characters more. Unlike the lead characters, I can't say I didn't like any of the side characters... which makes it all the more disappointing that they only got the time in the spotlight that they did. It all reminds me of Fate/Stay Night in that respect... we have a cast of very interesting and enigmatic side characters that unfortunately get shafted in favour of a set of very bland and not very likable lead characters.

[Mirrinus]

Originally Posted by Sorrow-K

I also feel that, in the last few episodes, seeing these not-so sympathetic lead characters has made me appreciate the side characters more. Unlike the lead characters, I can't say I didn't like any of the side characters... which makes it all the more disappointing that they only got the time in the spotlight that they did. It all reminds me of Fate/Stay Night in that respect... we have a cast of very interesting and enigmatic side characters that unfortunately get shafted in favour of a set of very bland and not very likable lead characters.

Heh, I agree. I like pretty much every single side character (except maybe Sae) more than all 3 of the main characters. They're probably the main reason why I still think Sola was at least worth watching.

[xat]

Having recently gotten my hands onto the first sola dvd, I decided to check out the first episode... I think it's worth revisiting to see just how much of a departure there has been between then and now--it really hit me during the first few moments when Yorito meets Matsuri.

... I hope sola 13 is good.

Edit: clarifying something. The shift of pace/story isn't necessarily a bad thing, but to me it feels less wonderful than it could have been.

[Owaranai Destiny]

Perhaps the one big flaw in sola is that the directors tried to overplay the tragedy theme. It did struck me when the possibility of one of the Yakas dying that they might have lost their plot somewhere in the middle, and the amount of unanswered questions certainly didn't help.

Atmosphere-wise, a few of the scenes were pretty good, especially with the Mana-centric episode. I would call that more of a tragedy, perhaps, than what is deemed to be the typical ending by most for sola regarding Aono's fate.

[Mizuno]

I liked Aono's Unlimited Paper Works and Paper Bunshins. She's definitely more powerful than Matsuri.

So by stabbing Aono, if she changes into a normal human then Yorito will disappear, as well as Matsuri from the wound. Meaning Aono will be the only one left, possibly losing her memory of Yorito.

[Kaoru Chujo]

Originally Posted by Nemesis2124

Well, I'm glad that people are finally starting to see Matsuri's true character. Not as some "epitome of benevolence", but as a sad person whose actions are driven by her deep-rooted darkness. One could say that she exists on that same plane of gray that Aono does. And frankly, that's part of why I like this show....

I agree with this, to a great extent. But I also agree that by wandering off into complexities of plot and leaving Matsuri out of it for too long, the show lost something.

However, just because this isn't a great show, that doesn't mean it isn't a good one. I continue to expect each succeeding episode to clear up some of the apparent plot holes -- which many episodes have done up to now. I don't grasp Matsuri's motivations in ep12, but I'm eager to see how they are explained at the end. Once again, I want to judge a show on its own terms, not by some external standard of how characters should be built, how plot should be arranged, etc.

The "Kanon writer" was a big draw, but we knew before the show started that he was the secondary writer. Nevertheless, they would have to mess up the last episode quite a bit -- which I don't expect they will -- to make this less than a very enjoyable show, for me. I look forward to it every week. I didn't feel a sure hand behind everything, but I like the show quite a bit anyway.

Unlike many, I do like and care for all three main characters, even if Yorito has been a bit of a blank for much of the show -- he's made of blank paper, after all, lol. I prefer my characters to have faults, like real people. Of course, I even like Sae. I think Koshimizu Ami is doing a great job to make a minor character so striking. And I think both Shimizu Ai and, especially, Honda Youko, have done well with Koyori and Mana.

By the way, I certainly do not see this show as "melodramatic." For me, there was too little melodrama, if anything. And they may not have made the tragedy strong enough for me, rather than overplaying it. At least so far. But this muffling of the emotion was part of the show's style, it seems to me, for better or worse. In part, I have to admit that the muffled emotion was because we were not as close to the characters emotionally as we are in some other shows -- Kanon, for example.

[Icerack]

Heh, I agree. I like pretty much every single side character (except maybe Sae) more than all 3 of the main characters. They're probably the main reason why I still think Sola was at least worth watching.

Mana's the best! They should give her a more important role!

[Guardian Enzo]

Originally Posted by Kaoru Chujo

I agree with this, to a great extent. But I also agree that by wandering off into complexities of plot and leaving Matsuri out of it for too long, the show lost something.

Unlike many, I do like and care for all three main characters, even if Yorito has been a bit of a blank for much of the show -- he's made of blank paper, after all, lol. I prefer my characters to have faults, like real people. Of course, I even like Sae. I think Koshimizu Ami is doing a great job to make a minor character so striking. And I think both Shimizu Ai and, especially, Honda Youko, have done well with Koyori and Mana.

By the way, I certainly do not see this show as "melodramatic." For me, there was too little melodrama, if anything. And they may not have made the tragedy strong enough for me, rather than overplaying it. At least so far. But this muffling of the emotion was part of the show's style, it seems to me, for better or worse. In part, I have to admit that the muffled emotion was because we were not as close to the characters emotionally as we are in some other shows -- Kanon, for example.

Agree here - I think this show was the antithesis of melodramatic, and that made the moments of high drama more impacting. While Kanon very much took the view of immersion in the (incredibly dynamic) emotional lives of the characters, Sola has been more of detached observation. And that's not a bad thing, IMO - I think the material itself has such inherent drama and scope that a Kanon-like approach would have put it over the top.

As for the ending, well - I'm still not comfortable on an interpretation yet. But I will say this much - it's hard for me to see the sympathy for Aono here. In my view, she's clearly the villain in this piece, albeit a tragic one.

[Owaranai Destiny]

Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo

Agree here - I think this show was the antithesis of melodramatic, and that made the moments of high drama more impacting. While Kanon very much took the view of immersion in the (incredibly dynamic) emotional lives of the characters, Sola has been more of detached observation. And that's not a bad thing, IMO - I think the material itself has such inherent drama and scope that a Kanon-like approach would have put it over the top.

As for the ending, well - I'm still not comfortable on an interpretation yet. But I will say this much - it's hard for me to see the sympathy for Aono here. In my view, she's clearly the villain in this piece, albeit a tragic one.

Detached observation or having a close-up at the characters in either show serves different purposes and different preferences, of course. It simply depends on which type one prefers. I don't particularly think sola to be terribly disappointing (even with the expectations which came with the information about having a Kanon writer around), but neither did it strike me well like i thought it would when I first picked it up.

Aono isn't really a villain-No one is. She's more like a 'victim of the circumstances'. Of course, her own conviction in 'bringing back' Yorito played a own part in her behaviour now. Besides, I don't find it especially villainous that she acted the way she did against Matsuri. It's pretty normal to hate someone whom you believed did something cruel to you, after all.

[Guardian Enzo]

Please don't for an instant think that was a dig at Kanon - Uguu! I adore that story. I just think the emotional approach was appropriate for the material there, just as the contrary approach was for Sola. As for Aono, well - I guess villain is a relative term. It's a complicated tale in which no one (save perhaps Yorito) is free of a laundry list of things to feel guilty about. But one tends to need an axis of right and wrong to orient around in a series like this, and its Aono, for me, who drives most of the negative karma.