Feedback: Tag Discussion

[Deathkillz]

One more off-topic note on the matter.

I don't find the term "loli" holds any bad meanings at all. It is the people who think that way which makes it mean bad. I just use it to describe young girls in anime with none of those thoughts in mind.

An with that I think that the loli tag for Kurenai isn't wrong at all (amd may I say that I see no sexual development with the little girl character in the series at all).

And about it being misleading I also don't see that, but then it depends on how you look at the term, it may just turn some others away (like how a person will never touch anything with the tag mecha no matter how good it is).

[Shana]

Originally Posted by Skyfall

I don't believe that to be the case at all. For once, the suggestions forum allows for personal input. People like personal input from others. Secondly, most people truly don't seem very sure about what exactly they are looking for (Here is the list of what i have watched and liked, suggest something similar). It also allows one to ask for more specific plot details or unorthodox elements within a show that wouldn't be covered by general tags. So no, introducing the tag system (which is basically and advanced search system without the flexibility a human response can provide) would not render the Suggestions forum obsolete. The functions of the two are not as directly interchangeable as it might seem at first glance.

I see. Thanks for answering Skyfall

[KholdStare]

Originally Posted by Deathkillz

One more off-topic note on the matter.

I don't find the term "loli" holds any bad meanings at all. It is the people who think that way which makes it mean bad. I just use it to describe young girls in anime with none of those thoughts in mind.

An with that I think that the loli tag for Kurenai isn't wrong at all (amd may I say that I see no sexual development with the little girl character in the series at all).

And about it being misleading I also don't see that, but then it depends on how you look at the term, it may just turn some others away (like how a person will never touch anything with the tag mecha no matter how good it is).

The way I see this is I don't think about what I think, but I think about what others think. Will others think and search for "loli"? I'm thinking yes, so I'm not going to think about if I think loli has any meaning, but if I think people will search for it, then I don't mind. If we get "technical" with Kurenai, then sure, lose the loli. However, it will just cause inconvenience for others.

Oh, and I'm not disagreeing with you dkz, but quoting you makes life so much easier.

[WanderingKnight]

I don't find the term "loli" holds any bad meanings at all. It is the people who think that way which makes it mean bad. I just use it to describe young girls in anime with none of those thoughts in mind.

An with that I think that the loli tag for Kurenai isn't wrong at all (amd may I say that I see no sexual development with the little girl character in the series at all).

And about it being misleading I also don't see that, but then it depends on how you look at the term, it may just turn some others away (like how a person will never touch anything with the tag mecha no matter how good it is).

Loli is an affectionate English term for young girls

The problem is that the word "loli" has connotations that have to do with a particular fandom and a particular stereotype--in this I disagree with Toua, because lolidom, the way I see it, has more to do with the stereotyped characteristics (and, ultimately, the fetish) of a character which, among several other qualities, looks like a child. Even if Murasaki is a 7-year old kid, she doesn't conform to the loli stereotype at all, and the show is not based around her conforming to that, either. Even more, there are lots of loli characters who aren't really kids--I can think of a few examples of teenagers and 20-something women that are portrayed in the loli way.

I have no problem with lolidom at all... but there are people who're going to read the "loli" tag in Kure-nai and are going to be spooked by it.

[cyth]

Originally Posted by WanderingKnight

I have no problem with lolidom at all... but there are people who're going to read the "loli" tag in Kure-nai and are going to be spooked by it.

So the question in front of us is: Do we start educating folks how these terms should be used or do we submit to populistic terminology? That's what NeoSam and me and a few others have been getting at for a few days now.
Would be great if someone could code a description field for every tag on top of tag search results pages.

[WanderingKnight]

I don't think "educating" (whatever that might mean) is really either feasible, or to put it bluntly, correct. Language is something that changes, and the current signification of "loli" among most of the Western fandom is a useful one, if you ask me, so there's not much point in changing it into a less useful one simply because it's "the Japanese way".

We have other, more common words to define a young girl, such as (drumroll) "young girl". I don't really see the point of making a genre or a categorization out of it.

[Deathkillz]

Originally Posted by WanderingKnight

The problem is that the word "loli" has connotations that have to do with a particular fandom and a particular stereotype--

Maybe for someone, but maybe not for others is what I am saying.

For me, I can use the term both in a sexual and non sexual contex but I can see where some may just see the former whenever they see the term being used.

I guess the problem here is when tags become misleading and hence putting people off from a series that could have been something they would have liked, but in this case I still believe that the "loli" tag is being used in a literal sense rather than implying something else.

But ofcourse newcomers won't know that and it may drive them off if they don't decide to look further into it. This is where the tricky part comes in.

[NoSanninWa]

I think we should just let the tag "loli" alone. Discussions of the subject have never really produced consensus, even though they are sometimes interesting. If we really want to discuss its use as a tag, the small subject could easily deserve its own thread.

[NeoSam]

"characters" and "script" tags in the Kure-nai thread:
http://forums.animesuki.com/showthread.php?t=48194

>.>

[Deathkillz]

Lol...I don't know whether to laugh or laugh becuase Kurenai is attracting so much attention. I will really laugh if someone is silly enough to put "epix best series this season" tag on next

[mandarb916]

/shrug

Maybe a variation on how niconico tags are used? There's up to 5 tags of 10 that can be locked (in niconico's case by the video uploader) and 5 that can be publically edited. I THINK the locked ones show up first but just speculation, then the public tags show up next in sequence. Have a limit of x tags per thread, and half (theoretical number) be selectable and lockable by mods, and the other half up for grabs for the general viewing populace whether it be for "fun" tags or tag wars w/e with some conditions such as no spoilers or what not.

Personally, I really enjoy user submitted "joke" tags on nico...there've been a couple where i've come across the scenes they're referring to and subsequently spit soda out my nose and what not :P...helps, imho, when tags are up top instead of at the bottom.

cheers~

[Zippicus]

Originally Posted by mandarb916

Personally, I really enjoy user submitted "joke" tags on nico...there've been a couple where i've come across the scenes they're referring to and subsequently spit soda out my nose and what not :P...helps, imho, when tags are up top instead of at the bottom.

I wouldn't mind "joke" tags provided they are clever and/or funny. That being said the problem I see is that most people aren't as clever and/or funny as they think they are

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by mandarb916

Maybe a variation on how niconico tags are used? There's up to 5 tags of 10 that can be locked (in niconico's case by the video uploader) and 5 that can be publically edited. I THINK the locked ones show up first but just speculation, then the public tags show up next in sequence. Have a limit of x tags per thread, and half (theoretical number) be selectable and lockable by mods, and the other half up for grabs for the general viewing populace whether it be for "fun" tags or tag wars w/e with some conditions such as no spoilers or what not.

As was mentioned before, the only problem with these sorts of ideas is that the forum software doesn't support it, and hacking the vBulletin code is fairly high-risk (since they could re-write something in the next version without notice) and high cost (at least if you measure it in development time). So while these sorts of ideas are interesting, the most feasible solutions would probably involve finding a way to use/manage what we've got.

[NightWish]

Originally Posted by mandarb916

... Have a limit of x tags per thread, and half ... selectable and lockable by mods, and the other half up for grabs for the general viewing populace...

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

...the most feasible solutions would probably involve finding a way to use/manage what we've got.

Arguably that is basically what we have at the moment, just the numbers are slightly different:

• Tags per Thread: 25
• Tags Applied by Thread Starter: 5 (identical to mandarb916's "locked" tags)
• Tags Applied by Other Users: 2 (per user, until all 25 have been supplied)

The only possible difference is that all the tags are "locked", where as in mandarb916's example there is the suggestion that all "public" tags can be edited by anyone (i.e. removed, which only staff can do here).

[WanderingKnight]

Well, now Kurenai is tagged as "shounen"... o.O

[mandarb916]

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

As was mentioned before, the only problem with these sorts of ideas is that the forum software doesn't support it, and hacking the vBulletin code is fairly high-risk (since they could re-write something in the next version without notice) and high cost (at least if you measure it in development time). So while these sorts of ideas are interesting, the most feasible solutions would probably involve finding a way to use/manage what we've got.

Sorry...I don't know much about vbulliten. phpBB could use plugins and had a pretty wide base of plugin coders so I figured if one tag system didn't work, there might be others that might better fit your guys' needs based on the ideas posted in this thread :P From the sounds of it, there aren't many plugins available for VB?

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by mandarb916

Sorry...I don't know much about vbulliten. phpBB could use plugins and had a pretty wide base of plugin coders so I figured if one tag system didn't work, there might be others that might better fit your guys' needs based on the ideas posted in this thread :P From the sounds of it, there aren't many plugins available for VB?

Well, the current tag system is part of the base architecture and not a plug-in. And since it's a new feature, I haven't seen that many plug-ins for it yet (though I haven't looked very hard!) But from the sounds of things (thanks for that NightWish!) it may actually have more options than I realized, so maybe we're okay after all. Shows how much I know!

If we did do the "public tag" method, I think the "global" ability to remove the public tags would make sense. But I guess it would depend on how we structure the privilege system.

[SeijiSensei]

Originally Posted by NeoSam

"characters" and "script" tags in the Kure-nai thread:
http://forums.animesuki.com/showthread.php?t=48194

I'll own up to those, and I think both terms are appropriate to the show and good examples of what tags can be.

What features of Kure-nai do you think we should use to identify it in a tagging system? I think it's a show about characters with a surprisingly well-written script even in translation. I think other shows like Welcome to the NHK! are also about characters and have above average scripts. From reading the forum for Kure-nai, I'm not the only person who thinks that characterization and scripting are a great deal of what this show is about.

As I suggested in the imported thread, I agree with xris about the importance of developing a common tagging vocabulary. The tagging boxes do offer completions based, I'd assume, on the popularity of tags using the same initial letters. What I don't see yet is how to build a consensus around specific terms.

If anybody can contribute two tags, shouldn't it be possible that some threads will end up with 6, 8, 12 or more tags? What's wrong with some of those tags being terms like "characters" and "script" as well as "light novel," NeoSam?

I'd like to see shows that focus on characters carry a consistent tag for that feature across all forums. I don't know if the word "characters" is the best choice; I was forced to decide on the spot which of a variety of options to use. I don't think "characterization" is a good alternative; it's too long and academic. The singular "character" didn't seem right either. In the end I opted for "characters."

If people continue to discourage the use of tags like these, then I will cease and desist and delete as many such tags as I can recall entering. However, I don't see any other way to encourage the development of a common vocabulary. I'm tossing out terms like "inspirational," "maturation" and "script" because I'm trying to influence the direction of the tagging endeavor. (It's not as megalomaniacal as it sounds.) Hopefully people will see what words others are using to tag threads and adopt the most meaningful ones. Isn't that how this is supposed to work? Survival of the fittest and all that? I just prefer to hang out in the mutated parts of the gene pool because that's where all the evolutionary action is. Some people choose "shounen;" I choose "inspirational." Both those apply to Hikaru no Go, among other shows. If you say "people will be looking for 'shounen' and not 'inspirational'," that depends both on who's looking and on how the distribution of tags is presented to the searcher. Since making it into the top seventy means you appear on the tags.php page, I figured I'd better get "maturation" and "script" out there before the range of choices got too narrow.

I don't think it's feasible to try and draw up a list of recommended tags, either. I thought about whether to first address the question of "appropriate" tags here, but I decided that the only test of a tag's effectiveness is whether others use it. It seems to me the "let a thousand flowers bloom" approach makes the most sense, at least in the near term as we see how tagging shakes out.

Originally Posted by KholdStare

Regarding tagging threads in the Suggestion Forum, I must say that it's quite redundant. What the use of tagging "mature" and "romance" in a thread that is entitled, "Looking for mature/romance anime"?

Perhaps because someone searching across all the forums for the tag "mature" might want to see a thread entitled "Looking for mature/romance anime" appear in the list of results? Isn't that what tags are for? If not, then I'm at a loss to understand what they are for.

[NoSanninWa]

Well, it was inevitable. I've just issued an infraction because of rude tagging.

Just so everyone knows, we have some standards of behavior and language on this forum. These standards apply everywhere on our forum, regardless of whether it is posted in a thread, someone's profile, PMs, tags or anywhere else.

[NeoSam]

Originally Posted by WanderingKnight

Well, now Kurenai is tagged as "shounen"... o.O

It is a light novel series aimed at teenage boys (shounen).