[Manga] Chapter 503 Discussion

[milan kyuubi]

The only reason why Madara wants Sasuke is because of Minato he lost the power to control kyuubi. Thas why he's been pushing Sasuke to take Itachi's eyes. He plans to use Sasuke to control kyuubi. Just like he used Nagato to summon statue for the sealing of the bijus.

[james0246]

Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n

But it also does not make sense that he can't simply remove the seal somehow. Itachi being the one who prevented Madara's attack on Konoha seems more logical. After Itachi died Madara speaks to Zetsu: "With Itachi dead there's no one troubling me. So much for "i won't touch konoha"" That seems a good reason (plot device) to prevent the plot hole of Madara not attacking Naruto.

Why doesn't it make sense? There are seals that can't be removed (the various curse seals for instance, the Jinchuuriki seals also can't be removed without killing the host), so why not the seal placed on Madara?

That being said, Itachi didn't become a threat to Madara for another 7-8 years, so for the first 7-8 years of Naruto's life there was no protection (from Itachi at least).

Originally Posted by milan kyuubi

The only reason why Madara wants Sasuke is because of Minato he lost the power to control kyuubi. Thas why he's been pushing Sasuke to take Itachi's eyes. He plans to use Sasuke to control kyuubi. Just like he used Nagato to summon statue for the sealing of the bijus.

That is, more or less, how I see it as well. Though I would guess Madara wants to use Sasuke to control the Jyuubi...

[Lamar]

As i was reading everyone's comments i noticed something. Naruto only has half the chakra right? Minato said that he'd seal half the chakra inside of him. Now for "Madara" to go through with his whole "Moon Eye" plan he'd need all of the Kyuubi's chakra.

Now remember when Kabuto met up with "Madara"? Could that have been Minato's body that he showed? That'd be the only thing i can think of that'd shock (or whatever) "Madara" Anyway, i don't know if someone already said it, but i just thought of that, cause i was always wondering if Naruto only has half the chakra, "Madara" can't get the Jyuubi, it'd be incomplete.

[james0246]

Originally Posted by Lamar

As i was reading everyone's comments i noticed something. Naruto only has half the chakra right? Minato said that he'd seal half the chakra inside of him. Now for "Madara" to go through with his whole "Moon Eye" plan he'd need all of the Kyuubi's chakra.

It's only speculation that Madara needs the chakra to recreate the Jyuubi. Specifically, he could be going for the "souls" instead - the minds that inhabit the individual chakra entities known as Bijuu. Consequently, the Kyuubi losing half of its power would be inconsequential to Madara's plans, since what he would need would only be the conscious entity known as the Kyuubi and not the Kyuubi's power...

[Lamar]

Originally Posted by james0246

It's only speculation that Madara needs the chakra to recreate the Jyuubi. Specifically, he could be going for the "souls" instead - the minds that inhabit the individual chakra entities known as Bijuu. Consequently, the Kyuubi losing half of its power would be inconsequential to Madara's plans, since what he would need would only be the conscious entity known as the Kyuubi and not the Kyuubi's power...

But didn't the story say that the Jyuubi was split into 9 parts? And its body was the moon or something? I would think you'd need all of the chakra considering chakra is what the Kyuubi is.

[Sabaku Kyu]

Originally Posted by milan kyuubi

He plans to use Sasuke to control kyuubi. Just like he used Nagato to summon statue for the sealing of the bijus.

He wants Sasuke for the exact same thing actually. Madara said he eventually plans to use Sasuke to manipulate the Gedo Mazo statue in place of Pein.

[james0246]

Originally Posted by Lamar

But didn't the story say that the Jyuubi was split into 9 parts? And its body was the moon or something? I would think you'd need all of the chakra considering chakra is what the Kyuubi is.

Yes Jyuubi was split into 9 parts, and each part became a Bijuu, but nowhere is it stated that to recreate the Jyuubi is the Bijuu's chakra the only thing needed. As I said, it could just as easily be the Kyuubi's "soul" that is the required component, and it's chakra, while useful, is not the main component to bring back the Jyuubi.

[Ero-Senn1n]

Originally Posted by james0246

Why doesn't it make sense? There are seals that can't be removed (the various curse seals for instance, the Jinchuuriki seals also can't be removed without killing the host), so why not the seal placed on Madara?

That guy doesn't even have a normal human body. I guess he can replace most of his fake body along with the seal. he's also almost a hundred years old, with huge experience related to all sorts of jutsu, most likely about seals too (for example he warned Sasuke about Danzou's seal). Added to that he had many years to remove it while the one who placed it is dead. We also have various examples of seals being removed or somehow cancelled. For example when Itachi kills Orochimaru Sasuke's CS2 seal just disappears magically.

In my understanding it's not the removal of the seal that kills the host but the removal of the demon itself.

And finally: if Minato was so sure about his seal being eternal on Madara why would he sacrifice himself and his wife to seal the kyuubi into a child. Before he sacrifices himself he has a flashback of Madara telling that he will get the kyuubi and then rule the world. Those final words of Madara sure have scared Minato enough to drop any other option which would let the kyuubi go free. Minato went so far as think that Madara is the Devil/Satan/etc..., and since Madara was pretty much identified as the last big evil boss of the manga i think we can assume that he can handle a seal.

Originally Posted by james0246

That being said, Itachi didn't become a threat to Madara for another 7-8 years, so for the first 7-8 years of Naruto's life there was no protection (from Itachi at least).

Madara's words were pretty clear, he said that just before Pain invaded Konoha on his orders. Naruto was part of konoha, so Madara could not attack him. Madara probably feared that if he attacks Konoha Itachi will do much harm to him, since Itachi could have ruined akatsuki with his information and power and also he could have attacked Madara himself. So Madara chose to wait until Itachi dies and then go on with his plan. While Itachi planned to power up Sasuke so much that after his death Sasuke will take his place in fighting against Madara. That's why Itachi named Madara as his accomplice, so that Sasuke would turn against Madara, on konoha's side. That was Itachi's "happy end" plan i guess

Originally Posted by james0246

Though I would guess Madara wants to use Sasuke to control the Jyuubi...

I think the cliche here would be that the big evil boss betrays his minion (Sasuke) as soon as he does not need him any more
But Madara already agreed with Kabuto to betray Sasuke, so i guess he will fail to betray Sasuke. Most likely because Naruto and Itachi will make Sasuke betray Madara before that.
Kishimoto also added the part of Kabuto betraying Madara. So whatever happens it will be fun, Kishimoto just set up the story so that anyone can betray the other

Also Madara can't be sure of Sasuke not wanting to kill him, so he would never give Sasuke too much power. If he were to give the 10-tails to Sasuke there would be a great risk of Sasuke killing him, since he made it clear that he really was Itachi's accomplice in killing the Uchiha clan. I think he knows that he must dispose of Sasuke after Sasuke destroyed Konoha and all his enemies, because then he will be the only one who Sasuke must kill in order to avenge the clan. Sasuke is simply too powerful and too crazy to let him live

My tip is that Madara wants Zetsu to create some very ugly monster body (the extremely disgusting body would be fitting of someone who is supposed to be more evil than others (Orochi,Zetsu,Kakuzu,Sasori) with disgusting bodies), which will be Madara's new body, he will then seal all the demons in that body and then he will place all 100 sharingan eyes in that body, and with all those eyes powered by infinte 10-tails chakra he will cast the eternal moon genjutsu

[Lamar]

Originally Posted by james0246

Yes Jyuubi was split into 9 parts, and each part became a Bijuu, but nowhere is it stated that to recreate the Jyuubi is the Bijuu's chakra the only thing needed. As I said, it could just as easily be the Kyuubi's "soul" that is the required component, and it's chakra, while useful, is not the main component to bring back the Jyuubi.

If it was all about the soul, then why did Minato just seal half its chakra? From the way Minato did things, i think he knew the whole story about the tailed beast and knew what would happen.

And if "Madara" was just aiming for the souls, then why'd he need to take all the beasts chakra, like earlier on when they were extracting a beast, they said they needed the chakra, they didn't mention anything about its soul.

[james0246]

Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n

That guy doesn't even have a normal human body. I guess he can replace most of his fake body along with the seal. he's also almost a hundred years old, with huge experience related to all sorts of jutsu, most likely about seals too (for example he warned Sasuke about Danzou's seal). Added to that he had many years to remove it while the one who placed it is dead. We also have various examples of seals being removed or somehow cancelled.

There are certain seals that if removed or tampered with result in death. We do not know the limits of the seal placed on Madara, but we do know that it prevents him from controlling the Kyuubi. Consequently, despite any speculation concerning the amount of Seals that Madara knows or whether changing bodies would affect the seal, all we can say with any certainty is that Minato sealed away the ability to control the Kyuubi.

Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n

For example when Itachi kills Orochimaru Sasuke's CS2 seal just disappears magically.

This is a bit misleading. In reality, when Orochimaru fully emerged, he took the Curse Seal with him. Itachi did not take the Curse Seal; rather he set up a sequence of events that led to Orochimaru purging the seal from Sasuke's system. Otherwise, the seal could not be removed.

Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n

In my understanding it's not the removal of the seal that kills the host but the removal of the demon itself.

Your nitpicking. Removing the seal lets the Bijuu free, so the removal would always lead to death.

Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n

And finally: if Minato was so sure about his seal being eternal on Madara why would he sacrifice himself and his wife to seal the kyuubi into a child. Before he sacrifices himself he has a flashback of Madara telling that he will get the kyuubi and then rule the world. Those final words of Madara sure have scared Minato enough to drop any other option which would let the kyuubi go free. Minato went so far as think that Madara is the Devil/Satan/etc..., and since Madara was pretty much identified as the last big evil boss of the manga i think we can assume that he can handle a seal.

You can't assume that at all. Why would Madara go through all the hassle with Akatsuki and the Sealing Statute, etc, if he could simply go and take Naruto and break through the Shiki Fuin whenever he wanted to? No, the Kyuubi was taken from Madara, so he had to develop a plan and strategy to regain control of the Bijuu, even if that meant using other people's powers.

Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n

Madara's words were pretty clear, he said that just before Pain invaded Konoha on his orders. Naruto was part of konoha, so Madara could not attack him.

Your misunderstanding. At any point from Naruto's birth till the age of 6-8, Konoha had no "Itachi protection" (considering that Itachi was only 5 when the beast struck, and didn't meet Madara till he was 11 or so). So there was no protection for Naruto or Konoha for 6-8 years. Consequently, we have to assume that something else stayed Madara's hand, and this chapter provided a very good answer: Madara couldn't control the Kyuubi, so he had to find a way to regain control before he could attempt any of his plans.

Originally Posted by Lamar

[COLOR="Blue"]If it was all about the soul, then why did Minato just seal half its chakra? From the way Minato did things, i think he knew the whole story about the tailed beast and knew what would happen.

There's no indication that Minato knew anything besides wanting to prevent Madara from ever being able to control a fully powered Kyuubi.

Originally Posted by Lamar

And if "Madara" was just aiming for the souls, then why'd he need to take all the beasts chakra, like earlier on when they were extracting a beast, they said they needed the chakra, they didn't mention anything about its soul.

To be fair, Nagato/Pain wanted the chakra for a doomsday device. So the directives Pain gave are not necessarily what Madara needs.

But, it's still a fair question that I have no real answer for. I could speculate that the "soul" is in the chakra, but I'll just wait for further evidence before going to deeply into the idea...

[-Sho-]

Does it was the first time that we saw Kurenai's father ?

Edit : Fixed

[Lamar]

Originally Posted by james0246

I could speculate that the "soul" is in the chakra, but I'll just wait for further evidence before going to deeply into the idea...

I was thinking that the soul is chakra, because of...um...that guy that Sakura and that old lady fought after they kidnapped Gaara, forgot his name. But then, what about Lee, he doesn't have chakra right..So idk. I
kind of forget a lot of things, i read too many manga's to remember every detail. That's why i ask quite a bit of questions.

[Ero-Senn1n]

Originally Posted by james0246

This is a bit misleading. In reality, when Orochimaru fully emerged, he took the Curse Seal with him. Itachi did not take the Curse Seal; rather he set up a sequence of events that led to Orochimaru purging the seal from Sasuke's system. Otherwise, the seal could not be removed.

Well i didn't notice this when i read that part, your explanation certainly makes more sense then just having a randomly disappearing seal.
Anyway, i think the sealing jutsu would be vastly overpowered if people would be able to place seals on others that cannot be removed. For example when Danzou places a paralyzing seal on Sasuke he just overpowers the seal and breaks free.
That would mean Minato just touches you and you are fucked for eternity

Originally Posted by james0246

Your nitpicking. Removing the seal lets the Bijuu free, so the removal would always lead to death.

The question was if Madara can safely remove Minato's seal of he may die from that. Sure if there's any chance Madara would try that.

Originally Posted by james0246

You can't assume that at all. Why would Madara go through all the hassle with Akatsuki and the Sealing Statute, etc, if he could simply go and take Naruto and break through the Shiki Fuin whenever he wanted to? No, the Kyuubi was taken from Madara, so he had to develop a plan and strategy to regain control of the Bijuu, even if that meant using other people's powers.

Your misunderstanding. At any point from Naruto's birth till the age of 6-8, Konoha had no "Itachi protection" (considering that Itachi was only 5 when the beast struck, and didn't meet Madara till he was 11 or so). So there was no protection for Naruto or Konoha for 6-8 years. Consequently, we have to assume that something else stayed Madara's hand, and this chapter provided a very good answer: Madara couldn't control the Kyuubi, so he had to find a way to regain control before he could attempt any of his plans.

Well all this sounds logical, so even if it sounds awfully overpowered to me that Minato could seal Madara's power with one touch, i have to agree that it is the most likely cause of Madara not trying to kidnap Naruto. That is if Kishimoto wanted to close a plot hole with this revelation Otherwise anything can be true. On the other hand if this is true then Minato sacrificing himself to seal the demon seems a plot hole. Simply because without him Konoha is much weaker (he could have handled Orochimaru's invasion much more easily than what the 3rd could do) and also because all the knowledge about Madara that was lost with him, in exchange he left a defensless child who became hated by the villagers. The plot hole can be removed if we simply give an emotional answer: he didn't want to live without Kushina, and he didn't want her to be the only sacrifice after he failed to protect her. And since Minato was under extreme pressure he acted more emotionally and not just in a logical way.

[james0246]

^Personally, I'm fine with the idea that if Minato touches you, then your fucked (then again, isn't that true of any S-rank shinobi? .).

[Ero-Senn1n]

Originally Posted by james0246

^Personally, I'm fine with the idea that if Minato touches you, then your fucked (then again, isn't that true of any S-rank shinobi? .).

Sure they can do that to an average person
But this Madara guy just escaped everything, being infested with lethal bugs, being caught by Deidara's huge explosion, being amaterasued, being "killed" by the 1st hokage, and then comes Minato and touches him and even after 16 years have passed he is disabled by Minato
It's just a bit hard to believe

[Ashura3]

Was Kushina the last Uzumaki with the power to chain the Nine-Tails? I can't remember. If yes, that could be another reason why Minato thought it'd be best to seal it within Naruto rather than have Kushina die with it.

[james0246]

Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n

It's just a bit hard to believe

Which is why he is dead .

[Alchemist007]

-Shiki Fuujin is used.

-The final scene is of a dead Minato and Kushina lying next to a crying Naruto.

I didn't see either of these. Just the death god appearing post hand-seals.

[madv2c]

So let me get this straight. Minato somehow conjured up a seal that prevents someone from controlling the Kyuubi, and can't be removed; which apparently only one person in the world can control it, that person being conveniently deceased. But he didn't have a seal to safely tuck the Kyuubi away back into Kushina, or Naruto, or whoever the hell without anyone getting killed?

And i don't like where the 'half of the Kyuubi's chakra' thing is going. Seems over-complicated, improbable, and will potentially be buried in a plot-hole. I'm wondering if the writer of this manga took a LOST approach to this story (release content first, worry about consistency later); or this whole thing was in the making from the beginning. If it's the latter, i have a hard time believing they couldn't come up with a better un-bullshitty explanation to this.

Maybe i'm just not seeing the bigger picture, and not digesting this properly. It's not without possibility that everything will be explained... and the big "ahhh, so that's why.." is in store for me in the later chapters.

[Yondaime]

Originally Posted by madv2c

So let me get this straight. Minato somehow conjured up a seal that prevents someone from controlling the Kyuubi, and can't be removed; which apparently only one person in the world can control it, that person being conveniently deceased. But he didn't have a seal to safely tuck the Kyuubi away back into Kushina, or Naruto, or whoever the hell without anyone getting killed?

And i don't like where the 'half of the Kyuubi's chakra' thing is going. Seems over-complicated, improbable, and will potentially be buried in a plot-hole. I'm wondering if the writer of this manga took a LOST approach to this story (release content first, worry about consistency later); or this whole thing was in the making from the beginning. If it's the latter, i have a hard time believing they couldn't come up with a better un-bullshitty explanation to this.

Maybe i'm just not seeing the bigger picture, and not digesting this properly. It's not without possibility that everything will be explained... and the big "ahhh, so that's why.." is in store for me in the later chapters.

I thought half of the Kyuubi's chakra was in Naruto and the other half was in that giant scroll with the frog on top of it?

And didn't Naruto open it and it had that seal on it that looked like it was in the shape of a key?

And a few chapters back we see Naruto have that same key looking seal emblazoned onto his arm which he uses to lock the seal on himself when he's in his Sage of the Six Paths mode after successfully taking the Kyuubi's chakra for himself.

So that would make me think he had access to both the Yin and Yang chakras of the Kyuubi. Or am I missing something here?