The Industry - Lifestyle and Wages

[Srin Tuar]

Originally Posted by spirits having flown

Can gaijins be able to enroll in training programs for voice acting offered by different talent agencies (I think Ken Production has this School Duo program or something for aspiring seiyuus)?

Lol, I think some gaijin voice talent would have helped shows like Beck- they really really
needed some gruff native speaker to voice those marines. After hearing them talk I could
no longer watch the show

There arent many shows like that though, where having a gaijin voice is worth anything.
Plus, who would be willing to work sporadically for 2000円 per show? It seems like it would
cost you money to get a gig. At least you'd have bragging rights though, FWIW.

[Kaoru Chujo]

Originally Posted by ImperialPanda

....supply & demand....Competitive pressure is what keeps the market running. It's good. Keeps things efficient.

I don't think the present system involves competitive pressure. It's more like a combine of companies that keeps wages low and does not reward merit. If anything, it would tend to drive good people out of the business. It does serve to keep costs low, though, at least for the producers. Whether the producers (and agencies) end up skimming more profit for themselves and not either lowering prices or passing profits to the creative people, I don't know.

My opinion is that the system does not seem to recognize the real worth of the seiyuus to a project. I think a good seiyuu adds value to a show that causes more people to buy the DVD. For instance, I think that Saitou Chiwa was important to the great popularity of Hazuki in Tsukuyomi. She made the character more attractive than a more average seiyuu would have. But I think the companies do not realize this, and just take the seiyuus for granted. Even the audience might not realize it, but it affects their buying behavior anyway.

Seiyuus differ from animators, in my opinion, since seiyuus' voices differ more than animators' drawings do. Animators have to draw to a standard determined by the director, character designer and key animators. The seiyuu can be more individual, and therefore is less easily replaced. So that means they should cost more, by supply and demand.

I do agree with the general point, however, that just because you are good at something doesn't mean you should be able to make a living at it. There has to be a demand for what you can do, and a small enough supply that the price people are willing to pay is high enough for you to live on. The problem in this case is that the companies (producers and agents) have the power to control the seiyuu market, and seiyuus are not able to compete in a truly free market.

The point about seiyuu being seen as more low-life than live actors may be true, too -- although of course the universal tradition is that actors of all kinds are low-lifes. It's probably also that we pay so much attention to faces that actors whose faces you can see seem more important.

[ImperialPanda]

Originally Posted by Kaoru Chujo

I don't think the present system involves competitive pressure. It's more like a combine of companies that keeps wages low and does not reward merit. If anything, it would tend to drive good people out of the business. It does serve to keep costs low, though, at least for the producers. Whether the producers (and agencies) end up skimming more profit for themselves and not either lowering prices or passing profits to the creative people, I don't know.

low wages = too many people trying to get the same damn job
low wages = not many people (relatively, price-wise) like the products/services they offer

Producers are able to keep profits simply because there aren't all that many producers, and your average john doe can't just decide one day to become a producer.

Now, we can get into some sort of an argument about that particular market being closed and the ups and downs of that, but I don't think that makes up a meaningful slice of the pie. I think the primary factor to low wages for animators/seiyuus is that there's just too many people trying to get those few jobs. =P

There may be some monopolistic market failures going on in the industry. However, it is pretty much accepted that a monopoly is necessary when people deal in digital goods, where the marginal costs of production are zero.

In the end, people make conscious choices when they decide on their careers (unless they happen to be stoned out of their minds at the time). If they choose to be a seiyuu or animator, forwhatever reason (lazy? unaware of market conditions? unrealistic?) they're basically accepting the wages the market is offering them. Want better wages? Best thing to do is either 1) do something else or 2) be really really good at what you do. You can't always do what you want in life.

gogo Econ 101.

[kj1980]

Originally Posted by Kaoru Chujo

Just to show some of the other employment seiyuu have to turn to, there is now a video on tt showing Horie Yui in a Family Mart (Japanese convenience store chain) staff training video. Not sure how old she is there (she's now 29). I'll bet she was happy to get the gig.

What the heck is "tt"?

Originally Posted by spirits having flown

Thank you kj1980 and eggplant for giving us a detailed background on how seiyuus make a living.

Can gaijins be able to enroll in training programs for voice acting offered by different talent agencies (I think Ken Production has this School Duo program or something for aspiring seiyuus)?

Do you really want to go through the trouble of getting a student visa for Japan, submitting dozens of paperwork to prove that you have sufficient income to get by, paying a hefty fee for a temporary residential permit for foreigners, with the restrictions of not being able to get jobs due to "student" status, just to become a seiyuu? If this comes a shock to you, well think again - the reciprocal is practically the same for people wanting to become a student in the U.S.

And even if you manage to get by, there are 10,000+ seiyuus that graduate such voice acting schools each year, in which only a handful gets hired by talent agencies. And even then, your salary is extremely low.

Do you really want to do that?

Fun question: It possible if I can visit the different talent agencies (Aoni, Arts Vision, etc) and let my favorite seiyuus sign stuff that I have? :P

Oh sure. Talent agencies have all the time in the world to satisfy one fan out of a tens and thousands of otakus. If you haven't noticed, I'm being sarcastic. Can you go to a talent agency in your country and get an autograph signed by a star tied to that company? Most likely, they'll call security to shove you out into the street as a potential stalker. Oh wait, there's also a thing called a restraining order. Then you'll be blacklisted from all events that are tied to that seiyuu.

Unless you are a member of the industry, chances of you befriending a seiyuu is nil. If she says its a pleasure to meet you, duh - it's a facade. What? You expect them to say "you otakus creep the hell out of me" truthfully? Yeah sure.

Play it safe. If you like a seiyuu, go to a seiyuu event

[luchamasta]

Hmm, eggplant sounds like he/she works for the industry or something close to it. Perhaps publishing or tv broadcasting?

Anyway, great post :-)

[Eclipze]

Originally Posted by kj1980

What the heck is "tt"?

Its either mistyped "Tv" or "that".

[bayoab]

Originally Posted by Eclipze

Its either mistyped "Tv" or "that".

Wrong on both accounts. Its the name of another website that was purposely left out for reasons of its content.

[spirits having flown]

Chill out kj1980! You know you've helped me more than enough. I'm sorry if I somewhat annoyed you with some of my posts. Now that I've known more than enough, I'll just shut up and not ask further questions. . Thank you.

Oh sure. Talent agencies have all the time in the world to satisfy one fan out of a tens and thousands of otakus. If you haven't noticed, I'm being sarcastic. Can you go to a talent agency in your country and get an autograph signed by a star tied to that company? Most likely, they'll call security to shove you out into the street as a potential stalker. Oh wait, there's also a thing called a restraining order. Then you'll be blacklisted from all events that are tied to that seiyuu.

Don't worry, I will not even resort to such a thing.

[Eclipze]

Originally Posted by bayoab

Wrong on both accounts. Its the name of another website that was purposely left out for reasons of its content.

Well, at least leave a (website) beside it next time then, since "tt" is often used as "internet shortform" for "that", and the "tv" interpretation was just what I could think of to fit in.

[Ilpalazzo-sama]

Originally Posted by bayoab

Wrong on both accounts. Its the name of another website that was purposely left out for reasons of its content.

I thought we are allowed to say it, I mean I think I saw it somewhere on the board...The correct shortcut is "TT" I guess.

[Benio]

This thread is very informative and such an eye opener. It's a shame that people who are behind products that make others happy have to live in tough condition like that. And about the bad time slot, it's very true. I used to live in Japan and while I was there I never knew there was anime aired on TV so late at night. During weekdays I only got to watch anime like Doraemon, Shin-chan, Conan, and Nube, which were on around 5-7:30 pm. After 8 pm, there were mostly dramas, game shows and variety shows. On weekends, I only had Sazae-san and Chibi Maruko-chan to watch. Those are good family shows but to me they were kind of boring. I always wondered why there was no cool anime on TV at that time. Not until last year when someone introduced me to the world of bit torrents that I got to realize that most anime series are aired after midnight. That's really a shame!

[DaFool]

I would like to invite eggplant, kj1980, or any other Japan-based forum members (or anyone for that matter) to comment on the peak of 50 new anime series premiering this summer. Is this the maximum size of the bubble right before it is about to pop?

I try to be a little more optimistic. There can be more series, each with fewer episodes, and still be the same or even less than the production capacity of previous years. Case in point: WOWOW's 6-episode series timeslot.

I'd be interesting to speculate on the possible impact not just on anime consumers, but on studios and employees as well. One thing I noticed is that GDH (Gonzo conglomerate) has expanded overseas operations and is now doing general animation co-productions with U.S. and Europe (particularly, France). It has been less of a hardcore anime company recently (maybe all their pantsu and excessive CG finally bit them in the rear...but then again they wouldn't have expanded if they weren't successfull so far)

I read on an MIT anime newsletter that the backing of more corporate funding as well as international coprod money did indeed serve to increase the capacity of the anime industry, resulting in what we see now as more anime. It does not, however, necessarily serve to increase the quality of shows but may instead result in overcapacity. (I would want to argue that more money, allocated correctly usually does result in more quality. However what seems to have happened is just more bigshots saying: produce more, so we can export more. period.) The newsletter also said that back in April 2000 there were 20 new series and April 2002 there were 34 new series. Now this newsletter was published more than 3 years ago and predicted a bubble. Now given a typical exponential / power curve, there is a lag time between peak and fall...and the result is overshoot. I am afraid to say April 2006 may be that max point. It's scary.

This overproduction isn't just with anime...the same with 3D feature films...the peak was sometime in 2005 I think, and I read there were many wannabe studios who didn't make the cut to final production, so the deluge of all these talking CGI animals now are supposedly the best of the lot. Also, didn't the Navarre CEO mention recently that children's animation (age 12 and under) are not doing too well, hence they budgeted more for licensing the hardcore (age 12+) crowd? It just so happens to be a convenient time for Funi because ADV has just cut back on licensing when it used to be king.

I think the trend is global and influences not just Japan and U.S. but the whole animation pipeline. Just last week I received the final roster of my company full-time employees: 25 down from over 50. And contractual employees / artists numbering around 100 instead of 200. Dang, I can feel it everywhere. They say that animation is a cyclical industy...I just realized it cycles really hard

[kj1980]

Originally Posted by DaFool

I would like to invite eggplant, kj1980, or any other Japan-based forum members (or anyone for that matter) to comment on the peak of 50 new anime series premiering this summer. Is this the maximum size of the bubble right before it is about to pop?

I try to be a little more optimistic. There can be more series, each with fewer episodes, and still be the same or even less than the production capacity of previous years. Case in point: WOWOW's 6-episode series timeslot.

I'd be interesting to speculate on the possible impact not just on anime consumers, but on studios and employees as well. One thing I noticed is that GDH (Gonzo conglomerate) has expanded overseas operations and is now doing general animation co-productions with U.S. and Europe (particularly, France). It has been less of a hardcore anime company recently (maybe all their pantsu and excessive CG finally bit them in the rear...but then again they wouldn't have expanded if they weren't successfull so far)

I read on an MIT anime newsletter that the backing of more corporate funding as well as international coprod money did indeed serve to increase the capacity of the anime industry, resulting in what we see now as more anime. It does not, however, necessarily serve to increase the quality of shows but may instead result in overcapacity. (I would want to argue that more money, allocated correctly usually does result in more quality. However what seems to have happened is just more bigshots saying: produce more, so we can export more. period.) The newsletter also said that back in April 2000 there were 20 new series and April 2002 there were 34 new series. Now this newsletter was published more than 3 years ago and predicted a bubble. Now given a typical exponential / power curve, there is a lag time between peak and fall...and the result is overshoot. I am afraid to say April 2006 may be that max point. It's scary.

This overproduction isn't just with anime...the same with 3D feature films...the peak was sometime in 2005 I think, and I read there were many wannabe studios who didn't make the cut to final production, so the deluge of all these talking CGI animals now are supposedly the best of the lot. Also, didn't the Navarre CEO mention recently that children's animation (age 12 and under) are not doing too well, hence they budgeted more for licensing the hardcore (age 12+) crowd? It just so happens to be a convenient time for Funi because ADV has just cut back on licensing when it used to be king.

I think the trend is global and influences not just Japan and U.S. but the whole animation pipeline. Just last week I received the final roster of my company full-time employees: 25 down from over 50. And contractual employees / artists numbering around 100 instead of 200. Dang, I can feel it everywhere. They say that animation is a cyclical industy...I just realized it cycles really hard

The point in my theory is that various stats showing that "XXX billion yen market exists in the hard-core otaku market" that were released by many financial research companies like Nomura that are propogating the bubble. In addition, the "Densha-Otoko" phenomena of last year which put in a whole new perspective onto otakus, added with the otaku-esque but charismatic aura put on by Horie Takafumi of livedoor further propelled corporate investments into something that isn't as solid as...say invensting in government bonds and futures.

Sure, Japan's manga market makes up a major portion of our publishing industry. No other country in the world has a publishing industry that strong whose main income and profit comes from comics alone. But the question comes into play - what works in Japan, can it work in a more realistic market such as in America and in Europe? Are proper researches being done to maintain the current speed of shoving anime and manga down people's (otakus') throats?

What is scary is that this scenario all seems to familiar like the dot-com bubble of the late 1990s. Banks lending out money to companies with the promise of multi-billion venture capital, when in reality there is no clear objective. Like you said, otakus themselves are already saying "fifty new stories next season!? That's freaking crazy!!" You are beginning to see web-logs from otakus crying "even if I use all of my HD recorders that I have, I still won't be able to watch all of them!!"

So let's take this into foreigners' perspective.

FIFTY-PLUS NEW ANIME SHOWS NEXT SEASON.

How many fansubbers will be able to do them? Like the otakus here in Japan, one person, or even a group will not be able to do them all. Fansubs are already spread out by many fansubbing groups for various shows.

FIFTY-PLUS NEW ANIME SHOWS NEXT SEASON.

How many fansub viewers will be able to watch all of them? Chances are, they do not have the bandwidth to download all the torrents of all these shows. More likely, HD space itself will become limited along the lines of our otakus saying "our HD recorder spaces will be capped!"

FIFTY-PLUS NEW ANIME SHOWS NEXT SEASON.

What are the chances of the average fansub viewer to drop a promising show in order to keep up with anime that is still airing/will air?

It's becoming more and more like a feast at a ballroom. There are some many good stuff to eat, but no one can eat all of them. In the end, all the good food goes to waste because the food isn't concentrated to one singularity, but is divided among mulitples of people. "Oh shit, I love turkey! And I can have all this for ourselves! Kick-ass!" Works great when there only a turkey on the table. "Holy shit! Now there is pizza on the table too!! Kick-ass!! But we can't eat the whole turkey now." So some of the turkey is left over.

So it comes down to "let's lure in more fans by making anime that fans exist." What you are seeing are shows that are made that are based on doujin games, ero-games and light novels. It's becoming more and more niche. Sure fans of such doujin games, ero-games, and light novels are going to watch the anime of that title. But do they make up a majority to make a good profit? No.

My pessimistic theory is yes: it is about to explode. Unless I am proven wrong, I prefer to continue investing in mutual funds and government issued bonds until then.

[Kaoru Chujo]

Originally Posted by DaFool

I would like to invite eggplant, kj1980, or any other Japan-based forum members (or anyone for that matter) to comment on the peak of 50 new anime series premiering this summer. Is this the maximum size of the bubble right before it is about to pop?.... Dang, I can feel it everywhere. They say that animation is a cyclical industy...I just realized it cycles really hard

All I can say is that as a consumer, I am really enjoying the state of anime right now. Lots of shows and lots of good shows, as far as I am concerned.

I know little about the industry, but perhaps its cyclicality will be slightly offset by the growth of markets in America and China -- although the greatest expansion in both markets may be in illegal downloading, rather than purchase of licensed anime. I'm not sure how significant sales of goods, such as figures, is to international profits. I think it's an important part of profits in Japan.

The potential power of the Chinese market is shown to me every time I look up a seiyuu's name in kanji on Google: I have to limit it to Japanese sites or else most of the top sites are Chinese.

Age demographics are probably significant, too. In Japan, there are comparatively few young people, and the shadow baby-boom is trailing off here in the West, too. So anime and manga aimed at a slightly older audience, and at girls, may have to be part of maintaining the industry's strength. This would mean more shoujo and josei and more late-night-style seinen anime, I imagine. Although I doubt that could make up for any dip in the popularity of the early-evening kids' shows.

In the end, I agree with kj1980: stick with safe investments; this could be a bubble. And although the prospect of 50 shows is gratifying, I hate the thought that there will more good shows on that I don't have time to watch.

[DeuceTrick]

Well, this certainly puts a cheerful spin on my day.

Anime is one of my big hobbies, and this little dose of reality is very sobering indeed. I wish there was something I could do as a mere consumer (on the other side of the Pacific, no less) that would help things move along smoothly, maybe make things better. I guess I'll start by having a sip of scotch and walking down to the shop to get those DVDs I've been looking at.

[Benio]

Does anyone know if in there are any cable channels that air only anime-related stuff in Japan? In America, there's the Cartoon Network that does that. There's also the Food Network for people who love food and cooking, and the Home and Garden TV for those who love home improvement and gardening. These kinds of shows normally would never get good time slots on national (free) TV channels. And very few are aired. So if you don't get cable, you won't have many to watch.

These kinds of dedicated cable channels really have helped grow their respective markets. People like movies because they are scripted shows that tell interesting stories using good-looking actors. Anime is similar; it's just that it uses drawn characters instead of real people. I sometimes prefer anime because it can have any kind of story, or characters with any hair/eye color that can be even cuter than real people. If anime studios could grow the market instead of targeting only at a small group of people (otakus), that should benefit everyone. Just my thought.

[bayoab]

Originally Posted by Benio

Does anyone know if in there are any cable channels that air only anime-related stuff in Japan?

They exist. They are all pay-for cable/PPV channels. There is Animax and Kids-Station for starters. There are also lots of internet based ones like Bandai-Channel.

[kj1980]

Originally Posted by Benio

Does anyone know if in there are any cable channels that air only anime-related stuff in Japan? In America, there's the Cartoon Network that does that. There's also the Food Network for people who love food and cooking, and the Home and Garden TV for those who love home improvement and gardening. These kinds of shows normally would never get good time slots on national (free) TV channels. And very few are aired. So if you don't get cable, you won't have many to watch.

These kinds of dedicated cable channels really have helped grow their respective markets. People like movies because they are scripted shows that tell interesting stories using good-looking actors. Anime is similar; it's just that it uses drawn characters instead of real people. I sometimes prefer anime because it can have any kind of story, or characters with any hair/eye color that can be even cuter than real people. If anime studios could grow the market instead of targeting only at a small group of people (otakus), that should benefit everyone. Just my thought.

Yes, we have that in forms of BS and CS satellite TV. Many families own this subscription service.

The truth of the matter is however, most people will likely stick to shows like watching live concerts, dubbed foreign language dramas (FOX's "24" is very popular here in Japan), etc. etc.

Simply put: Most teens in your country sticks to watching MTV. Similar thing here in Japan. Dad comes home from work, he's not going to watch anime. He wants to see K-1 fighting, Suzuki Ichiro playing for the Seattle Mariners, or soccer. Mom watches TV between household chores, she's going to watch cooking channels. Kid comes home from school, he/she wants to be "in with the times" so he/she watches channels dedicated to music and latest fashion trends.

Anime is for kids. That is the reality of how it is viewed - even in Japan. Yes, it is quite shocking for you guys, but that is the reality. While we do have anime only channels like bayoab has said, it's practically the same in America - people who view them are otakus. Practically you too are saying that when you say, "hey I love to watch Cartoon Network." Wow, I can sense the geekiness coming out from you. Same with me. Unless you are an avid fan of the original story who eagerly wants to watch the show by actually paying for it, no one is going to watch it.

If dad is bringing home the money to pay for the satellite service, he'll watch something more "normal." Kick-ass exhibition fighting matches, heart-pounding live action foreign dramas, or see our national hero hitting runs in MLB.


But like I said, animes are shown on local UHF stations late at night, or in satellite subscription service. As you said, it caters to grow that market. That's why you see otakus shelling out cash with over 50 anime shows airing next season. Who is going to watch them? Otakus. That's who it is catered for, and because of BS and CS channels, that is why anime shows ballooned to the bubble that we are seeing today.

[Guido]

Originally Posted by kj1980

Yes, we have that in forms of BS and CS satellite TV. Many families own this subscription service.

The truth of the matter is however, most people will likely stick to shows like watching live concerts, dubbed foreign language dramas (FOX's "24" is very popular here in Japan), etc. etc.

Simply put: Most teens in your country sticks to watching MTV. Similar thing here in Japan. Dad comes home from work, he's not going to watch anime. He wants to see K-1 fighting, Suzuki Ichiro playing for the Seattle Mariners, or soccer. Mom watches TV between household chores, she's going to watch cooking channels. Kid comes home from school, he/she wants to be "in with the times" so he/she watches channels dedicated to music and latest fashion trends.

Anime is for kids. That is the reality of how it is viewed - even in Japan. Yes, it is quite shocking for you guys, but that is the reality. While we do have anime only channels like bayoab has said, it's practically the same in America - people who view them are otakus. Practically you too are saying that when you say, "hey I love to watch Cartoon Network." Wow, I can sense the geekiness coming out from you. Same with me. Unless you are an avid fan of the original story who eagerly wants to watch the show by actually paying for it, no one is going to watch it.

If dad is bringing home the money to pay for the satellite service, he'll watch something more "normal." Kick-ass exhibition fighting matches, heart-pounding live action foreign dramas, or see our national hero hitting runs in MLB.


But like I said, animes are shown on local UHF stations late at night, or in satellite subscription service. As you said, it caters to grow that market. That's why you see otakus shelling out cash with over 50 anime shows airing next season. Who is going to watch them? Otakus. That's who it is catered for, and because of BS and CS channels, that is why anime shows ballooned to the bubble that we are seeing today.

Do some adult males watch Japanese "Lucha Libre"?

In México, it's extremely popular and originated in our country. The real art of "Lucha Libre" originated in my country.

Tecnicos v.s. Rudos matches. Mascara v.s. Cabellera matches.

Not to confuse with the American Wrestling, that is just a ploy drama that only services pure, gratuitious, commercial violence and no technique.

[Benio]

Thanks Bayoab and kj1980. Lots of info, lots of good points.

If everyone who watches anime is considered otaku, then anime studios should keep targeting at otaku. And to grow the market will then be to make more people become otaku. That's a challenge because, like kj1980 said, the general conception is that anime is for kids. And teens and grown-ups who don't watch anime will not all of a sudden start watching it.

I watched a lot of cartoon as a kid. Didn't watch as much when I grew up. Hadn't watched anime in years when someone introduced Marimite to me. Been watching anime since. If it had been Naruto or Full Metal Alchemist instead, despite them being so popular, more than likely I would not have kept watching anime. I'm not saying those series are not good; just not the type of anime I like to watch. For 24, I know it’s very popular but I've never seriously watched it. However, several of my coworkers recently talked about it and said it was very good. That made me think I might give it a try if there are reruns at a convenient time for me to watch.

The key here is that how do you get people who don't normally watch anime to give it a try. Convenience is one important factor, I believe. If it requires even the slightest effort beyond what they normally do, it's probably not gonna happen. That's why I think dedicated channels airing different kinds of anime at various time slots should have some impact. And if the one they try happens to be the one they like, I believe they'll likely want to watch more. Reruns after a series has finished or aired for a while should also help. If you hear people talk about it and you’re kind of interested but you can't watch it from the beginning, you’ll probably just give up.

And I guess you're right about the bubble. Still for viewers, the more series, the more choices you have. I don't think we can watch all of them but hopefully we'll get to watch more of the kind we like. Again, just my thought.