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Old 2021-04-08, 23:28   Link #4641
Tactics
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stray View Post
I was lamenting the lack of VN adaptations recently (aside from juggernauts like Heaven's Feel) but LN are dirt cheap to make and so abundant now there's even manga adaptations that seem drowned out. I don't think its fair to view that as a reflection of the market for VN as a whole.
Still, its the most reliable way to gauge people interest for VN.

Anime VN adaptations existed because its actually sensible to expect return from it back then.
During said times, Akane Iro ni Somaru Saka and Mashiro Iro Symphony worked for me, ensuring me to search for copies (so late considering release date between VN and anime). Nowadays, like others said, there's gacha games that more accessible, using VN format and demand you to do dailies if you didn't want going full P2P thus pure VN get it rough as they're facing uphill battle, effectively 'eliminated' small studios.

Doesn't help that gacha games stories became more engaging lately.
No need talking about big names like FGO and its fanbase, a mere puzzle games able to deliver story chuuni enough to let its audience made relationship chart and talk about their power level. Romance stories in waifu collectors game lack of twist VN can pull but interesting enough if you only care about waifu being waifu.

Only eroge survived, however eroge became leaned into getting new audience rather than challenging themselves once per three year with surprising serious theme.
It can't be helped; I myself kinda sad about current state of VN, back then when I wanted to seek untapped potential of interesting writers or singers (e.g. Nana Mizuki is VN singers before) outside JRPG territory I would immediately look at VN catalogue or listen to sample audio of VN OST.
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Old 2021-04-09, 07:54   Link #4642
stray
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Originally Posted by Tactics View Post
Anime VN adaptations existed because its actually sensible to expect return from it back then.
Anime adaptations of VN were also difficult to execute and gave us such anime classics as Deen/stay night, Umineko, the Tsukihime anime most people deny the existence of, and so on. School Days made a completely original route for its anime, and something like True Tears was a completely unrelated anime sharing the same name just because. Without a really strong common route and/or a true end a lot of adaptations were left to their own devices with mixed results.

Mobile games have affected gaming across the board, not just VN, but... for every game that comes remotely close to F/GO there's been dozens that have shut down. Yeah they're popular but also incredibly disposable with no guarantee that the game you're playing will still exist in 6 months.

Anyway I'm okay with stuff like episodic releases ala 9-Nine and whatever other adaptations VN studios may make... VN are rather expensive to produce. I'm not really good with nostalgia either and especially over pandemic have still found a ton of stuff I want to read so... to each their own.
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Old 2021-04-09, 09:05   Link #4643
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Anime adaptations of VN were also difficult to execute and gave us such anime classics as Deen/stay night, Umineko, the Tsukihime anime most people deny the existence of, and so on. School Days made a completely original route for its anime, and something like True Tears was a completely unrelated anime sharing the same name just because. Without a really strong common route and/or a true end a lot of adaptations were left to their own devices with mixed results.
I doubt that's the problem because past romance VN adapatation able to get it message properly conveyed at most times and sometimes managed to pick heroine who actually the most sensible route with no hard feelings to everyone. Shuffle ended with Asa route, no one complaint. Mashiro Iro Symphony ended with Mio route, praise worthy if I must say as in process MC stood as strong independent figure; Gift and Canvas took easy route with main heroine, Akane Iro is complicated for sake of ensuring both heroines get fair treatment even if there's only one winner.

It only explains that back then taking whatever popular stuffs for adaptation doesn't end well without proper understanding of source material (RIP True Tears)
Umineko fall compare to Higurashi because Higurashi is easier to connected with. I won't say Fate is horrendous, DEEN took risk combining all three routes and the difference is heaven and earth when DEEN UBW released which IMO far better in screentime management compare to Ufotable's copy-paste UBW VN moment exactly same; Fate itself easily succeeded as the concept is easier to understand by general audience from start so the denial is not as extreme as Tsukihime.

Common route or true end make it easier, sure, but it doesn't mean they have to follow that as it depends on what's intention behind the creation (e.g. Majikoi is only to promote the game rather than going for definite conclusion from any route, so do most other VN adaptation).

As for episodic approach, it worried me more TBH.
Its a good way to keep audience excited to keep VN production alive but it require more careful writings compare to conclusive ending in single package. My interest to 9-Nine and new Grisaia is pretty low for that reason.
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Old 2021-04-09, 11:06   Link #4644
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Originally Posted by Tactics View Post
It only explains that back then taking whatever popular stuffs for adaptation doesn't end well without proper understanding of source material (RIP True Tears)
It most certainly wasn't what fans of the original source wanted, but it was a pretty good anime on its own. Probably the last and best shipping war between viewers I've participated in.
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Old 2021-04-09, 12:13   Link #4645
stray
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Originally Posted by Tactics View Post
I doubt that's the problem because past romance VN adapatation able to get it message properly conveyed at most times and sometimes managed to pick heroine who actually the most sensible route with no hard feelings to everyone.
That's not necessarily a viable or good solution, and runs the risk of alienating people when there really isn't a clear poster girl. It runs the risk of being the de facto true ending. Also, Shuffle! sucks.

I never read the VN but I really liked how Yosuga no Sora anime went over every route over two or three episodes each... which I guess was somewhat necessary to set up the siscon route.
Quote:
Common route or true end make it easier, sure, but it doesn't mean they have to follow that as it depends on what's intention behind the creation (e.g. Majikoi is only to promote the game rather than going for definite conclusion from any route, so do most other VN adaptation).
My bigger point is that its just not worth it to deal with the challenge of VN adaptations when there's 876,987,345,697,845,369,748,635 LN adaptations that still need to be made. And the anime will have already made its money and won't have to deal with death threats or anything when the LN author inevitably ends the series on the wrong girl. Plus VN haven't really picked up on trends like isekai which can pull an audience no matter how trashy or terrible they are.
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It most certainly wasn't what fans of the original source wanted, but it was a pretty good anime on its own. Probably the last and best shipping war between viewers I've participated in.
True Tears anime was actually pretty okay but it was Mari Okada writing which meant it was basically a snoozefest in the end.
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Old 2021-04-09, 13:10   Link #4646
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That's not necessarily a viable or good solution, and runs the risk of alienating people when there really isn't a clear poster girl. It runs the risk of being the de facto true ending. Also, Shuffle! sucks.

I never read the VN but I really liked how Yosuga no Sora anime went over every route over two or three episodes each... which I guess was somewhat necessary to set up the siscon route.My bigger point is that its just not worth it to deal with the challenge of VN adaptations when there's 876,987,345,697,845,369,748,635 LN adaptations that still need to be made. And the anime will have already made its money and won't have to deal with death threats or anything when the LN author inevitably ends the series on the wrong girl. Plus VN haven't really picked up on trends like isekai which can pull an audience no matter how trashy or terrible they are.
Alienating what? We're not even moving from romance genre and you already enforced everything should be treated as chuuni VN where all materials have to be acknowledged and there's one true ending that shall not be denied.

Also, please, there are enough isekai themed VN. Hatsuru Koto Naki (Frontwing obvious effort to join isekai boom), Chusingura, Koihime Musou (this one already have anime) even more if we going far to 18+ territory that is including nukige (which some already animated as well, not all-ages rating obviously).
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Old 2021-04-09, 14:42   Link #4647
stray
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Alienating what? We're not even moving from romance genre and you already enforced everything should be treated as chuuni VN where all materials have to be acknowledged and there's one true ending that shall not be denied.
I... don't understand your point. I said that VN were easier to adapt if they had a "true end" and then you decided to defend adaptations that were centered around a "main" heroine which is basically the same fucking thing as having a "true end" whether that was the case in the source or not. You're the one who wants something conclusive here, not me.

Anyway, especially if you like hearing well known seiyuu in your eroge -- you should give 9-Nine a chance. Its more or less concluded (in both English and Japanese) with a compilation and epilogue chapter coming out later this month.
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Old 2021-04-09, 22:44   Link #4648
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Did you read?

My stance is anime adaptation mostly stand for promotional purpose, not much difference with LN or manga adaptation except they can disregard true end, taking advantages of multiple routes, especially if its not considered a necessity for the end result thus existence of true end itself not going far past making stuffs easier to worked with in creation process.

Otherwise, I won't pick Majikoi anime as example for it.

For sure, I'm not the one who brought: difficult because no true ending, alienating stuffs and risk of creating de facto ending for not going with true ending in anime. Not all VN adaptation is True Tears smh.
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Old 2021-04-10, 07:39   Link #4649
stray
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I also said a strong common route... an adaptation like Aokana was able to ignore the romance almost entirely and work as a sports anime.

I can definitely agree that VN are lacking in promotion recently but you seem to just want adaptations for the sake of having them (whether they're bad or not) which I just can't agree with.
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Old 2021-04-10, 08:03   Link #4650
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Originally Posted by Tactics View Post
Fate itself easily succeeded as the concept is easier to understand by general audience from start so the denial is not as extreme as Tsukihime.
There was a.....Tsukihime anime?! Never heard of this. No I'm not meme-ing. Am totally serious. Quite sure it sucks like the DEEN Fate one but still....How did I never hear of this.
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Old 2021-04-10, 10:27   Link #4651
stray
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Oh fuck I accidentally acknowledged its existence.

I wonder if Ufotable will come through with a Tsukihime 2021 adaptation now that its finally real... not sure if they're working on anything other than the next Tales game at this point.
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Old 2021-04-10, 11:03   Link #4652
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*sigh* You just said the It-Which-Must-Not-Be-Named

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Originally Posted by stray View Post
but it was Mari Okada writing which meant it was basically a snoozefest in the end.
Mari Okada's cat fights are great though. Shipping wars are boring when the girls are all nicey-dicey with each other. Gotta have that spice, which she does add, even if she usually trips on her toes near the end of her stories.
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Old 2021-04-10, 12:42   Link #4653
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Oh fuck I accidentally acknowledged its existence.

I wonder if Ufotable will come through with a Tsukihime 2021 adaptation now that its finally real... not sure if they're working on anything other than the next Tales game at this point.
Huh, the art is actually pretty good for a half-assed attempt. And Ufotable touching Tsukihime? One can hope
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Old 2021-04-10, 14:52   Link #4654
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Just want to give one small comment about this...

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Shuffle ended with Asa route, no one complaint.
I suspect you weren't around AnimeSuki Forums when this happened. I kid you not: a significant amount of the rules and restrictions we have around sub-forum posting can trace their origins specifically back to the Shuffle anime.


And well, in general, I agree with the comment that VNs can be tricky to adapt. I think two big reasons are either that a) key staff doing anime adaptations struggled to really understand what people liked about the game (maybe due to never having played VNs/eroge before) so treated it like adapting a manga and so missed the point, or b) there was just no way to deliver on the game's content in the limited episode count allotted for the show so they had to make do with a sub-par summary.

If you look at some of what people see as the successful VN adaptations, the points they tend to have in common are that they have enough time to develop the plot, they respected the game story without major deviations (at least not without good reason), they understood the "atmosphere" of the game well, and they represented the characters well (both visually with good art, and in their personalities). So to really do that, you need key staff who really take the time to play through the whole game from end-to-end and truly understand what makes it special, and then a production committee that gives enough time/budget to match what the game needs to shine. Given that VN adaptations were often just treated as promo for a consumer release of the game, they typically didn't get either the care or budget they needed to really be "good" in their own right. In fact, in some senses the anime being flawed might have been considered okay by the production committee if it got people to buy the game to get the real experience. (Some of them I still liked anyway despite the weaknesses, especially when they at least tried to respect the game within the limited time/budget they had, but it didn't always work.)

Another point I guess I should make is that a lot of VN adaptations struggled with writing proper foreshadowing for the ending they chose because, in the game, there was no foreshadowing since it was "choose your own adventure." But when you present it in a linear format and don't include the proper foreshadowing, it can make the ending come across as capricious and arbitrary. Sometimes writers were purposefully doing this to keep the "hype" up as the show went on (Shuffle being a key example of this). On the other hand... a lot of viewers weren't exactly good at detecting foreshadowing anyway, so even when the ending was properly foreshadowed some people would get mad because it wasn't the ending they wanted/expected. This kind of comes back to the "treating it like a manga" point I said earlier -- there's a subtle difference between a romance-focused VN with multiple separate routes and a shounen harem manga with multiple heroines, but a lot of time they ended up converting the former to the latter and so altering the tone of the original work.


And, well, FWIW, True Tears wasn't a VN adaptation at all. It only used the brand to create an all-anime-original story. I personally think it was a pretty great anime, but yeah -- doesn't really fit in this conversation since the game is completely unrelated. (Still... they could have pretty easily made a multi-route game version of it, as a sort of reverse adaptation. Might have done okay given all the people pining for a different ending.)
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Old 2021-04-10, 21:13   Link #4655
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In a way, Maeda (and his recent work) was criticized for having this problem, but the opposite way. That he is so used to a VN format, that he tries to animate in the VN format. Except it doesn't work that way, and you get... stuff. Or at least, did. God forbid his next work.

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I suspect you weren't around AnimeSuki Forums when this happened. I kid you not: a significant amount of the rules and restrictions we have around sub-forum posting can trace their origins specifically back to the Shuffle anime.
Beautiful times
It was rather the complete opposite. I recall Shuffle being a pretty full-out world war, not just the English community or Animesuki.
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Old 2021-04-11, 22:57   Link #4656
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Tsukihime is definitely on Aniplex 'to be animated' list, they invested a lot to FGO. Gotta keep the audience excited after FGO dried.

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I suspect you weren't around AnimeSuki Forums when this happened. I kid you not: a significant amount of the rules and restrictions we have around sub-forum posting can trace their origins specifically back to the Shuffle anime.
Definitely not as you can saw from my Joining Date.



Still, back then when I was in different forum, people are pretty chill about Shuffle.
Like, sure waifu wars existed but the foreshadowing hinted enough the MC will pick Asa (wanted peaceful life, etc). So in my part people accepted it; I guess it helped that the forum is mainly VN discussion so everyone are more or less understand what to expect from a VN adaptation.

Maeda is indeed problematic in that part.

In every works where he involved as writer, even a manga, the flow feels like I'm reading Route A, next chapter is Route B, and goes on without proper closure as if expecting there will be one big True End to compile everything.

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Old 2021-04-12, 07:06   Link #4657
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TBH, I think the entire industry is affected by this, just that VN got hit the hardest because of their nature. Anime nowadays are way more adaption inclined and also way more risk aversing, mobile game is obvious copy paste. Frankly manga are the medium I see this trend appearing the least. Everything became way more formulaic. It just got considerably harder for VN due to their nature as medium.
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Old 2021-04-13, 00:14   Link #4658
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TBH, I think the entire industry is affected by this, just that VN got hit the hardest because of their nature. Anime nowadays are way more adaption inclined and also way more risk aversing, mobile game is obvious copy paste. Frankly manga are the medium I see this trend appearing the least. Everything became way more formulaic. It just got considerably harder for VN due to their nature as medium.
That can be said. That is why original anime are important, and I like to root for them (as long as they are good).

I guess a reason for this is because manga requires less costs. Anime requires a lot of organization between multiple groups, from animation studio to broadcast to music.

But manga? Draw, have a story, get it published. Got the story writer, artist, and the publisher.

Doesn't sell? Then die! Anime can't just be cut short on the fly.
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Old 2021-04-13, 17:27   Link #4659
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I guess a reason for this is because manga requires less costs. Anime requires a lot of organization between multiple groups, from animation studio to broadcast to music.

But manga? Draw, have a story, get it published. Got the story writer, artist, and the publisher.
I think it's also a lot easier to turn manga panels into anime storyboards, and there's a lot more experience/expertise at doing that. A lot of the big VNs are 40-50+ hours, so could be 8-10+ LN volumes of text, plus typically in a branching format. Some of the writers who are really careful may go through and do a detailed review of the whole thing, but I strongly suspect a lot of the time they're going off of someone's notes about major plot points, key scenes, important CG, memorable voice lines, etc. and try to cobble something together that hits all the "main points." Basically when it's known from the get-go that it's going to be impossible to cover the whole game in the time/budget allotted, "fidelity" sort of goes out the window.

Also, with manga, a lot of the adaptations start when the manga is not finished, so it's a lot more acceptable to just get to a stopping point, have some sort of makeshift ending, and then sort of tacitly imply "read the manga to continue" (and it may or may not get a second season later). Whereas with VNs typically the VN is already complete by the time they work on the adaptation, so the expectation is that they'll animate the whole thing (even though they may not have the episode count to really do it).

Interestingly, though, the D.C. III anime is actually a case where they legit only animated the prologue of the game, which was definitely an interesting choice (considering the game itself branches off in an entirely different direction after the prologue). But considering how long that game was, it was maybe the safer choice given the episode count. A true case where the anime only existed to promote the game. Even though I can't really call it an adaptation in that sense, and maybe on the whole it wasn't that great as an anime, in a way I didn't mind the compromise they chose. (Better that then trying to fit an 80+ hour game in 12 episodes...)
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Old 2021-04-13, 23:19   Link #4660
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Back then its normal to have 50, then it down into 24, now you have to be conclusive by 12, at worst 6 OVA.

Although that made me questioned: if that's the case why VN devs. not reactively ensure their works to have common route? I can understand need of maximum immersion by choice but if isekai can be diluted enough with similar premises, every VN have common route should be achievable.
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