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Old 2016-01-14, 00:53   Link #541
james0246
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Originally Posted by GundamFan0083 View Post
George Lucas set all the postulates for his universe down in the first movie (A New Hope), he stayed true to them for six movies, and only added a few (like Midichlorines) to help explain the previous postulates.
The Force Awakens adds considerable postulates to the story.
From insta-Force powers without training, to ridiculous aerobatics by Tie-fighters and X-wings, to magical light sabers, to sun-sucking Death Stars, the list goes on.
So yes, the rules were broken by adding a bunch of bling that bent, broke, and altered the conventions of what came before.
What postulates, though? (And the science has always been plot convenient, so arguing about that seems a little silly.)

Ultimately the Force is established as simply a binding energy that pervades all aspects of the universe. I say simply, but obviously that is a giant freaking energy source that appears to be limitless. So, why is it so hard to understand that its macguffin nature makes it entirely up to the writer’s interpretation? Even Lucas struggled to keep the Force consistent within his series, and he simply gave up when it came to the games and other EU media.

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Originally Posted by GundamFan0083 View Post
With the exception of immaculately conceived individuals (which is one of many things that I dislike about The Phantom Menace, and there are many), nearly ALL of those feats were performed by Master Jedi or Sith that had decades of training. If Rey (or any character in this movie) were shown in this movie to have had decades of training, then yes, she (or any character) would be within the confines of the rules for the Force McGuffin.
Much of what Rey accomplished did not require extensive training. The basic empathetic abilities are innate in all Force users, so too are the “feelings” the Force provides its users, and precognition is pretty damn close behind that. Luke, for example, was able to utilize all of these abilities after about an hour of direct training, and most of that was just realizing that the Force can do stuff and since he can use the Force he can also do stuff.

The only powers Rey seems to fall into more easily than we think she should are Force manipulation and Telekinesis, and of those two only Force manipulation is potentially problematic (something like TK is taught to 5 year olds after all, and Luke was able to figure it out by himself). Truthfully, I have no real answer for Force manipulation, which is why I hope future information can shed some light on this power (though, it could be argued that Kylo's mind raping abilities are related to Force manipulation, and since she was able to instinctively hold out against those attacks, she might have gleaned some info as to how to project her own attacks).

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Originally Posted by GundamFan0083 View Post
However, the only character we know that has been training for decades is Kylo Ren, and she kicked his butt.
She kicked the butt of a man who was never trying to kill her all the while suffering from multiple physical pains plus the potential emotional pain of killing his father (depending on how the sequels wish to utilize the character).

Additionally, he is clearly painted as being untrained, or at least too volatile to be at his best at any given moment. Hell, his very light saber is a physical metaphor of the emotional turmoil that he is struggling with, and turmoil has always been shown to weaken a Force user (clear hearts and clear minds = badass Force user).

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Originally Posted by GundamFan0083 View Post
History certainly does repeat itself, but not like this.
No, but fiction does. This is a common trope within quite a bit of fantasy fiction that the world goes to shit in very similar ways every few decades, more often than not because some underlying force is still at work. Arguably, this is even the pinnacle of the meta-narrative that Lucas has presented us with the concept of the Force – a great power which exists in balance and will force the world to return to said balance when the scales are tipped too far. (I actually read an interesting theory somewhere that Luke deliberately removes himself from the action simply because he was beginning to grasp this meta-narrative as contrived by the Force.)

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Originally Posted by GundamFan0083 View Post
If the Force is "granting" things, then it isn't a "force" it's a God.
It kind of is, though. This is an energy with pseudo-sapience that can provide visions of the future, heal with a touch, destroy with a thought and impregnate innocent young women. Hell there are even freaking guardian angels. And truthfully, Obi-Wan’s explanation of the Force does not limit any of these abilities. The Force is the sum total energy of life and matter within the universe, so it is kind of big deal .

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Originally Posted by GundamFan0083 View Post
Since Luke is the most powerful Jedi (according to Lucas), then his powers illustrate the limits of what the force can do within the confines of the six movies.
Obviously not, since Luke is never shown to be as powerful as the prequel Jedi. Luke is only the most powerful if you include the EU and simply ignore the budgetary limitations as shown in the OT.

In other words, using the physical limitations as provided by the lack of relevant technology in the 70s should not be the basis line for what the Force can and cannot do.

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Originally Posted by GundamFan0083 View Post
We never see anything in the six movies that give a "power-up". If the EU had that, then why the hell did Disney get rid of it?
We do see places, though, that can provide visions. Rey, it seems, merely stumbled upon such a place, or I guess and item, that provided visions.

That being said, I do not truly believe it was a “power-up” beyond her realization that she could potentially use the Force, which was then influenced by the Force being used directly against her (by Kylo).

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Originally Posted by GundamFan0083 View Post
"Emotional suffering"?
No, she does not experience diddly in the way of pain.
She has a free ride.
Rey experiences almost the same amount of suffering that Luke does in the first film. She experiences early lose (Luke loses his aunt and uncle, Rey is abandoned by her parents at a young age); she is attacked and tortured by a Dark Lord whom she later fights; she did lose a mentor figure (yes, Han counts as a mentor equivalent to Luke losing Obi-Wan); and her friends were put in danger multiple times, forcing her to fight to protect them.

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Originally Posted by GundamFan0083 View Post
…everybody loves me, I can fly Han's ship better than him, I can wield a sword like a bo-staff, etc.), and the lack of any credible reasons for her abilities is why this movie's storyline is total crap.
Flying has been shown to be something that can be directly influenced by the Force (as evidenced by Anakin and Luke, and even Obi-Wan at times), and she has never been shown to be a better flyer than Han. At best she is shown to have equal knowledge of the Falcon, but that was explained by her working on it previously (as well as her general knowledge of engineering she developed by scavenging old Imperial ships).

LOL, since when is wielding a sword like a bo-staff something to complain about? She doesn’t know how to use a sword, so she uses it like she would a staff. There is nothing mystifying or reality shaking about this.

As for everyone “loving” her, well that is partially true. There are several supposedly emotional moments were Rey receives unnecessary attention (most notably Leia consoling her). But, beyond those few moments, by and large she is treated about the same as Luke was by those around him.

Last edited by james0246; 2016-01-14 at 01:11.
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Old 2016-01-14, 01:36   Link #542
Anh_Minh
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Originally Posted by JagdPanther View Post
What, the *humor* felt modern?
Like I said, very Guardian of the Galaxy.
Quote:
Yeesh. I... wow. Well, then that says a lot.

Good humor is timeless, and that's what the OT had.
The OT didn't try to have a lot of humor, though. It wasn't necessary at the time.
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Old 2016-01-14, 05:47   Link #543
GundamFan0083
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I'll answer your questions like this, James.

This gent illustrates what is wrong with this film very well.



He covers nearly every major non-political point that is wrong with this movie's script.
Although I disagree with him about the music, and visuals, but even then, his points do have merit to a degree.
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Old 2016-01-15, 21:42   Link #544
JagdPanther
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Originally Posted by HasuMasu View Post
Comedy definitely doesn't get a free pass from time. It's the same as Frankenstein not being as horrifying to us as the people who first watched him in theatres.

I don't know why you would think these things don't change when even the values of society change over time.
Did I say all comedy gets a free pass?

There's a reason why things like Who's on first? are still hilarious in 2015 no matter how old they get and how much society changes.
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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
Like I said, very Guardian of the Galaxy.
You mean the same Guardians of the Galaxy that is a partial satire of Star Wars and, therefore, by necessity funny?
Quote:
The OT didn't try to have a lot of humor, though. It wasn't necessary at the time.
It wasn't that it wasn't necessary. It's that it flowed from the moment rather than having to be shoehorned into the situation. There can be a fine line between something being very funny and being very serious. Delivery and context have an enormous amount to do with that. The OT walked that line extremely well.
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Old 2016-01-16, 03:29   Link #545
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And then we get this:

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A lot is happening in Rebels.
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Old 2016-01-16, 04:30   Link #546
GundamFan0083
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I have to ask.
What is Star Wars Rebels?
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Old 2016-01-16, 05:05   Link #547
Ithekro
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3d animated series made by Lucasfilm after they were acquired by Disney that follows up their earlier Clone Wars series that was on Cartoon Network. Much of the same people are working on Rebels as worked on Clone Wars. The one major difference is of course the Lucas isn't consulting the team directly anymore since he left Lucasfilm.

Rebels starts 4 years before A New Hope following the crew of a light freighter. Much like one would do with they were in a roleplaying game in terms of character setup. You have a pilot, a heavy, a weapons expert, a older Jedi type that wasn't fully trained, you have a kid that is Force Sensitive, and you have a droid. It follows these six characters as on a journey that seems to be heading towards the formation of the Alliance to Restore the Republic (usually known as the Rebel Alliance).

It is progressively getting more serious in terms of storylines, much like Clone Wars did. Some characters and incidents form the Clone Wars have carried on into Rebels. But being much closer in time to the Original Trilogy, the artists and story writers are now getting to go into what they grew up on in the 1970s and 1980s. They are using Ralph McQuarrie's artwork as the style choice for this show. In terms of known characters from the OT, we've seen R2-D2, C-3PO, Bail Organa, Lando, heard Yoda, Obi-wan, and the Emperor, and seen Darth Vader. Are soon to see Leia (next week).

Rebels seems to be dipping into the EU a bit for designs and some inspirations since Lucasfilm has all that stuff. Some stuff in the trailer is clearly Knights of the Old Republic inspired. Other things, like some of the older Kenner toys have shown up modified to look functional in universe. Also some clear references to the old Star Wars roleplaying game by West End Games are in there as well. The new trailer is also hinting at stuff we saw in The Force Awakens. The cross-guard lightsaber (in green this time) being the most obvious one.
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Old 2016-01-16, 06:12   Link #548
Anh_Minh
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Originally Posted by JagdPanther View Post
You mean the same Guardians of the Galaxy that is a partial satire of Star Wars and, therefore, by necessity funny?
I could have named any Marvel movie, but went for GotG because, well, In Space. And, I'm sure, more, if I paid more attention. But maybe you'll tell me they're all parodies.

Quote:
It wasn't that it wasn't necessary. It's that it flowed from the moment rather than having to be shoehorned into the situation. There can be a fine line between something being very funny and being very serious. Delivery and context have an enormous amount to do with that. The OT walked that line extremely well.
Nowadays, superhero movies (of which space wizard movies are a close cousin) are expected to have moments of obvious comedy. "Shoehorned", you may call it. Certainly very different from merely being placed in a funny situation. It's less subtle, but subtlety isn't for everyone, all the time.
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Old 2016-01-16, 11:45   Link #549
GundamFan0083
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ithekro View Post
3d animated series made by Lucasfilm after they were acquired by Disney that follows up their earlier Clone Wars series that was on Cartoon Network. Much of the same people are working on Rebels as worked on Clone Wars. The one major difference is of course the Lucas isn't consulting the team directly anymore since he left Lucasfilm.

Rebels starts 4 years before A New Hope following the crew of a light freighter. Much like one would do with they were in a roleplaying game in terms of character setup. You have a pilot, a heavy, a weapons expert, a older Jedi type that wasn't fully trained, you have a kid that is Force Sensitive, and you have a droid. It follows these six characters as on a journey that seems to be heading towards the formation of the Alliance to Restore the Republic (usually known as the Rebel Alliance).

It is progressively getting more serious in terms of storylines, much like Clone Wars did. Some characters and incidents form the Clone Wars have carried on into Rebels. But being much closer in time to the Original Trilogy, the artists and story writers are now getting to go into what they grew up on in the 1970s and 1980s. They are using Ralph McQuarrie's artwork as the style choice for this show. In terms of known characters from the OT, we've seen R2-D2, C-3PO, Bail Organa, Lando, heard Yoda, Obi-wan, and the Emperor, and seen Darth Vader. Are soon to see Leia (next week).

Rebels seems to be dipping into the EU a bit for designs and some inspirations since Lucasfilm has all that stuff. Some stuff in the trailer is clearly Knights of the Old Republic inspired. Other things, like some of the older Kenner toys have shown up modified to look functional in universe. Also some clear references to the old Star Wars roleplaying game by West End Games are in there as well. The new trailer is also hinting at stuff we saw in The Force Awakens. The cross-guard lightsaber (in green this time) being the most obvious one.
Thank you.
I saw Ahsoka in that and wondered what the heck it was.
I've seen some of the Clone Wars on CN, but I have not seen any of this new show.
If Disney is doing it, I'm not sure I want to see it.
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Old 2016-01-16, 18:33   Link #550
Kuroageha
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Tano is going to die, doesn't she?

Well, not the tread to talk this about but since it is the only SW thread...

I just want to see a Jedi curbstomping a team of Sith(Knights of Ren) I mean why is it that always the Jedi that get curbstomped by the dark side? I want to see it happening be it Luke or the multitalented Rei.
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Old 2016-01-18, 03:38   Link #551
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Kylo Ren SNL sketch.
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Old 2016-01-18, 11:42   Link #552
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I am very convinced by now that Rey isn't a Skywalker, but just someone that through returning Anakins lightsaber to it's rightful owner finds her destiny and possibly about her past and what happened to her real family.
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Old 2016-01-18, 20:39   Link #553
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Kylo Ren SNL sketch.
"Matt."

A rare decent sketch from SNL the last several years.
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Old 2016-01-18, 22:04   Link #554
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Least it wasn't Darth Matt.
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Old 2016-01-19, 01:43   Link #555
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Originally Posted by Chosen_Hero View Post
I am very convinced by now that Rey isn't a Skywalker, but just someone that through returning Anakins lightsaber to it's rightful owner finds her destiny and possibly about her past and what happened to her real family.
I like the suggestion elsewhere that she might be the daughter of a Sith Lord. It would explain why she was abandoned.
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Old 2016-01-19, 02:37   Link #556
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I'm going by a tangent here. Recent comments by directors seems to suggest
Spoiler:
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Old 2016-01-19, 06:23   Link #557
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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I'm going by a tangent here. Recent comments by directors seems to suggest
Spoiler:
Has that ever been done? I don't think this makes any sense in the Star Wars mythology/metaphysics. And it just seems too convoluted and would harm Rey as a character. She needs to be her own person, not the continuation of a different existing one.
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Old 2016-01-19, 06:59   Link #558
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If she doesn't remember who she truly is...the midichlorians will show her the way!

...but no, I would much rather have something new take place instead of bringing back the dead. Like ^ said, it would practically kill Rey as a character and possibly revive all the Anakin teen angst along with it!
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Old 2016-01-19, 10:03   Link #559
james0246
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I'm hoping she's Palpatine's clone .
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Old 2016-01-19, 10:14   Link #560
Obelisk ze Tormentor
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...possibly revive all the Anakin teen angst along with it!
In my eyes, they already went with something worse: a petulant child-ish antagonist called Ben Ren . As far as SW7 goes, that bitch seems even whinier and wimpier compared to Hayden Vader. I swear, his backstory arc which will probably be told in the upcoming movies better make up for the bad first impression he gave me and many other people who watched the movie.
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