Magic and Technology of MGLN

[Justin_Brett]

T...they do? I don't remember that.

[Sunder the Gold]

Originally Posted by Keroko

I assume you're talking about the PSP games, which I haven't played, so many of the things are hard for me (and I assume many others) to talk about.

However, it sounds to me like you're mixing up game mechanics with the series. Which is always a risky thing. For example, in the game you have to charge up to release big attacks, which is not needed in the series.

Arf needs more time to prepare a Photon Lancer Multishot than a simple Photon Lancer; in general, stronger or more complicated spells take longer to prepare. That logic is not limited to the video games.

Further, Einhart's Spinning Break works the same in the game as it does in the manga, so why wouldn't Zafira have Raging Wolf Fang (Stance of Iron Wall)?

Especially since the manga alludes to techniques *exactly like* Stance of Iron Wall. Either reflection or absorption.

[Kaijo]

Originally Posted by Kikaifan

What does that statement even mean? Yeah, no one has ever been totally invincible, but there have been plenty of defensive technologies that represented massive advantages to their users.

Such things rarely lasted long, and as you noted, it didn't make them invincible. Hence, by definition, the offense was greater than the defense. We don't have a good defense against nuclear bombs and missiles, for instance.

[Amaterasu1963]

Originally Posted by Justin_Brett

T...they do? I don't remember that.

Force 12 page 13 center panel, the medium shield is generating a force field bubble to protect her from Arnage's attack.

[Rising Dragon]

Chapter 12 page 6 also has Touma putting his hand through a barrier that was in front of a shield and the Bible of the Silver Cross registering an unidentified barrier.

[Justin_Brett]

Huh, so it did. I guess I forgot a lot about that fight.

[Kikaifan]

Originally Posted by Kaijo

Such things rarely lasted long, and as you noted, it didn't make them invincible. Hence, by definition, the offense was greater than the defense. We don't have a good defense against nuclear bombs and missiles, for instance.

There were also a good few hundred years where horse and plate armor were more valuable than any of the actual weapons that went with them.

Late-model heavy ERA is also extremely effective. There was a period during the Cold War when the Soviet frontline MBTs were essentially immune to their opposites' cannon in their frontal aspect.

I'm probably just picking at this because you said always and I'm the kind of pedant who gets annoyed by absolute statements, but. Defense isn't always behind. Yeah, offense tends to catch up, but they also tend to go back and forth for a while. Even after the spread of firearms plate kept thickening for a while until firearms became sufficiently refined that it wasn't worth the trouble.

Hell for most of history everyone built walls but good siege practices and engineers were incredibly rare.

[Keroko]

Originally Posted by Sunder the Gold

Arf needs more time to prepare a Photon Lancer Multishot than a simple Photon Lancer; in general, stronger or more complicated spells take longer to prepare. That logic is not limited to the video games.

Further, Einhart's Spinning Break works the same in the game as it does in the manga, so why wouldn't Zafira have Raging Wolf Fang (Stance of Iron Wall)?

Especially since the manga alludes to techniques *exactly like* Stance of Iron Wall. Either reflection or absorption.

I didn't say it was wrong, I said it was risky to assume. The game is designed from a standpoint of what makes for the best and balanced mechanics first, fluff second. If they overlap, good. If they don't, mechanics > fluff, and the game will do something different to make things balanced.

[Kaijo]

Originally Posted by Kikaifan

There were also a good few hundred years where horse and plate armor were more valuable than any of the actual weapons that went with them.

Late-model heavy ERA is also extremely effective. There was a period during the Cold War when the Soviet frontline MBTs were essentially immune to their opposites' cannon in their frontal aspect.

I'm probably just picking at this because you said always and I'm the kind of pedant who gets annoyed by absolute statements, but. Defense isn't always behind. Yeah, offense tends to catch up, but they also tend to go back and forth for a while. Even after the spread of firearms plate kept thickening for a while until firearms became sufficiently refined that it wasn't worth the trouble.

Hell for most of history everyone built walls but good siege practices and engineers were incredibly rare.

But none of that stuff was foolproof. Plate armor gave rise to weapon development, such as long tapered swords, as well as crossbows and longbows, all of which could pierce the armor. Even when plate armor first came out, despite it's great protection, it still didn't make someone invincible. You could always tire the person out, since it was heavy, and if you were skilled or lucky, there were weak spots you could aim for. That's why it was eventually phased out for lighter armor like chain mail.

There were many cities with supposedly impenetrable walls, but each city fell to strategy.

I get what you're saying, but nowhere has a defensive technology made a person or group invincible. There were always drawbacks, and ways around it. Even in cases where it conferred a large advantage, it didn't last long.

Anyway, this is getting off the point. My initial point was that, at least in our reality, shielding is complex, and is usually only effective against very specific things. There isn't really something like a Star Trek shield that protects against everything. And that point was being made as a theory as to why the Bureau hadn't pursued such scientific technology much. Magic shielding was technically better anyway. Although they have some scientific shielding now, apparently, although its usefulness is debatable. And it is still powered by magic, but more in a roundabout way; magic just provides the energy.

[Akiyoshi]

Defense-wise, the AEC-units are still a far cry from the former magical shields and barriers.

Signum's barriers were able to tank City-Destroying humongous blasts with enough kinetic force to blow holes in a mountain. The small barrier generated by the gladiator shield brakes when it was struck by a woman waving a sword against it xDU

Even taking Cypha's super strenght into account it's nowhere the same striking strenght whcih makes evident magical shields and barrier are still far more resillent and overall efficient (instantly casted and weightless with minimal hardware assistance which makes them far more versatile) than the modern imitations provided by Caledfwlch Techniques when it comes to anything else besides EC-Drivers.

[Justin_Brett]

Didn't you just say earlier she can corrode inorganic materials? Use someone else as an example at least.

[Akiyoshi]

I was talking about the energy barrier her Gladiator Shield generated (a feat Agito called "Hardened Armor") it did nothing to block Cypha's slash and Signum was barely able to avoid being impalled once again by dodgin gaining a cut on the side of her torso.

In fact one of the few successes of the Gladiator Shield was the ability to physically parry Cypha's blade attacks ....at least until Cypha decided to get serious for once and proceed to break the shield with finger pressure alone xDU

[Keroko]

Originally Posted by Akiyoshi

Defense-wise, the AEC-units are still a far cry from the former magical shields and barriers.

Signum's barriers were able to tank City-Destroying humongous blasts with enough kinetic force to blow holes in a mountain. The small barrier generated by the gladiator shield brakes when it was struck by a woman waving a sword against it xDU

Even taking Cypha's super strenght into account it's nowhere the same striking strenght whcih makes evident magical shields and barrier are still far more resillent and overall efficient (instantly casted and weightless with minimal hardware assistance which makes them far more versatile) than the modern imitations provided by Caledfwlch Techniques when it comes to anything else besides EC-Drivers.

A swordswing with enough power to shatter humongous mountains. No, I think that qualifies as very much above average power.

Originally Posted by Kaijo

But none of that stuff was foolproof. Plate armor gave rise to weapon development, such as long tapered swords, as well as crossbows and longbows, all of which could pierce the armor. Even when plate armor first came out, despite it's great protection, it still didn't make someone invincible. You could always tire the person out, since it was heavy, and if you were skilled or lucky, there were weak spots you could aim for. That's why it was eventually phased out for lighter armor like chain mail.

Minor nitpick, but longbows couldn't penetrate plate armor. Not unless fired from point-blank range. Arrow rains were just great enough in volume that they slowed down and tired plated armies. Not to mention that horses were rarely protected as well as their riders. It was the flintlock that started the decline of plate armor, since it had a reliable armor penetration at considerable distance.

Chain mail armor predates plate armor by a good millennium, and was often worn underneath plate armor after the later's invention. After plate armor became less relevant in the 17th century they didn't revert back to chain mail, as it's rings could shatter easily, often worsening the damage. Instead they just lowered the amount of armor worn outright. Around the 17th century people were mostly just wearing the breastplate, reinforced with a second and third later.

The concept of both mail and plate armor remains to this day and were used to develop ballistic armor as we know it.

[Kaijo]

Originally Posted by Keroko

Minor nitpick, but longbows couldn't penetrate plate armor. Not unless fired from point-blank range. Arrow rains were just great enough in volume that they slowed down and tired plated armies. Not to mention that horses were rarely protected as well as their riders. It was the flintlock that started the decline of plate armor, since it had a reliable armor penetration at considerable distance.

It's a small point of contention, but there is research showing that Longbows could penetrate plate armor up to 200 meters, with a lucky shot. As you said, though, minor nitpick.

Chain mail armor predates plate armor by a good millennium, and was often worn underneath plate armor after the later's invention. After plate armor became less relevant in the 17th century they didn't revert back to chain mail, as it's rings could shatter easily, often worsening the damage. Instead they just lowered the amount of armor worn outright. Around the 17th century people were mostly just wearing the breastplate, reinforced with a second and third later.

Yes, I know chain mail came first, but I suppose I should have used the word revert, because after the fall of plate armor, movement became more important, and thus lighter armor preferred.

The concept of both mail and plate armor remains to this day and were used to develop ballistic armor as we know it.[/QUOTE]

[Keroko]

Originally Posted by Kaijo

It's a small point of contention, but there is research showing that Longbows could penetrate plate armor up to 200 meters, with a lucky shot. As you said, though, minor nitpick.

That part about the lucky shot you're quoting was talking about crossbows though, not longbows. Longbows were mentioned to pierce mail at 200 meter. And even then only sometimes.

Yes, in large enough volumes there's always the chance of a lucky hit at a joint or slit in the helmet, or perhaps hitting a weak or rusty spot in the armor. But without exceptional luck or numbers? The longbow couldn't penetrate plate.

Originally Posted by Kaijo

Yes, I know chain mail came first, but I suppose I should have used the word revert, because after the fall of plate armor, movement became more important, and thus lighter armor preferred.

Which mail armor isn't. Seriously, that stuff is heavy. Stuff was around 15 or 30 kg depending on how much you were wearing. The Mongols actively avoided mail because of it's weight, and they're still one of the best examples of a mobile army to date.

No, when the flintlock started chewing holes in plate, they just ditched most of the armor and reinforced the chest part, protecting the vital organs.

In that sense, what the Nanohaverse has is ideal. The armor weighs not even the slightest bit more than the clothes on your back, doesn't inhibit mobility and yet offers superb protection. Enough to survive getting slammed through a concrete wall.

As much as I enjoy plate, and would live to see the knights in some actual goddamn knight's armor, the Nanohaverse's Barrier Jackets outclass it rather spectacularly.

[Akiyoshi]

Originally Posted by Keroko

A swordswing with enough firepower to shatter humongous mountains.

Fixed for you xD

Cypha destroyed Heimdall with an Eclipse-powered Swordblast, the Gladiato shield's "Hardened Armor" barrer got quickly pierced by a mare cross-range sword slash. And even then, Cypha's swordblast is less powerfull than Nanoha's big guns as far as it's shown. Excellion Buster (and by extension Blaster-1 Shooting Stars Assault) can obliterate an average-sized city and Signum still tanked that level of fire power with her magical defenses.

A far cry from what Gladiator and Fortress shields can do.

And using other examples we have Quinn and Tohma who cut trough Fortress shields like wet tissue paper with mere melee slashes xDU

[Keroko]

Again you say "mere" but you seem to enjoy powering down the melee attacks of the fighters. A magically enhanced melee attack can hit with just as much power as Nanoha's vaunted big booms. The difference is that instead of wide-spread destruction, all that power is concentrated in one blast.

Scale of destruction in km2 =/= power.

[Akiyoshi]

That's just speculation, what's shown is that magical barriers can tank nuke-level spells if the caster is powerfull enough while AEC-physical shields are more bound to real physics and break far after suffering some punishment.

Earlier in the series it was a big moment when a character breaks trough another shield and usually that takes some kind of power enhacement (Vita's Rakketen Hammer and Signum's fiercely thrown Shidden Issen were necessary to pierce Nanoha and Fate's barriers, Subaru have an especific power which requires plenty of hot blood to break trough a shield with her fingers Otto was in the need to push her her Ray Storm to get trough Shamal's wind shields and Nanoha's piercing functions are only present in her big guns). The Fortress and Gladiator shields are regarded as great defenses on print but get destroyed more frequently and far easier than barriers and magical shields were xDU

Their existence is only justified because Eclipse render maigcal defeses null and useless. But are glaringly inferior in any other aspect.

Gladiator-equipped Signum will have a world of trouble fighting against Zest or even Schach xDU

[Keroko]

Originally Posted by Akiyoshi

That's just speculation

As is the assumption that these blows are significantly less powerful.

Last time we saw a couple of eclipse users fight with one another, they ended up tearing an entire damn town to pieces. These guys don't throw soft punches.

[Akiyoshi]

the town was teared with blast attacks, not punches. I agree they're unholy strong (Cypha destroying a suppossedly super-strong shield with her bare fingers it's darn impressive) but such strenght, along with their volume is still a far cry from what the Aces had been shown to do in the past. Heck even the AEC-Equips seems to pack a stronger punch when it comes to energy attacks or at least i doubt Cypha can punch or slash harder than Nanoha's Excellence Cannon attack.

EC-Drivers are strong but not as strong as nukes xDU