2010-04-09, 19:52 | Link #2003 |
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By status, I meant God/Deity. Hence why I separated it from the 7 Servant Rule. However, since when were there classes other than those 7? Avenger was an exception, and it wasn't introduced until HF which, by all accounts, brings in a lot of crazy shit that doesn't make as much sense as it could, when taken into context with Fate and UBW.
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2010-04-09, 20:20 | Link #2004 | ||
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Firstly, Avenger doesn't appear in HF, he appears in HA. Spoiler:
I'm guessing that you've not actually played the game, because HF makes perfect sense when taken in context with the other two routes. All of the things that happen in HF explain why Shinji acts like he does in the other two routes, why Sakura is like she is and why Rider acts like she does. I can't think of anything in there that is inconsistent with the other two routes (although it is slightly inconsistent with the anime, because the anime didn't bother to follow canon when it did the Caster/Sakura arc, so the whole "Caster summoning the Holy Grail" thing doesn't fit with the explanation Ilya gives in HF for how the Grail really works). Last edited by Cherry_Lover; 2010-04-09 at 20:54. |
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2010-04-09, 20:45 | Link #2005 | |
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argh, I don't feel like looking through all this text right now, but there was definitely something about it being 'a pretty basic distribution' this year.
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Last edited by orangejuicetang; 2010-04-09 at 21:04. |
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2010-04-09, 20:54 | Link #2006 | |||
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And who mentioned anything about the Rin saving Shirou scene? That doesn't even have to explicitly have to do with the past event you learn about in HF. Without that, you can just as easily assume Rin saved him because she knew Sakura would be devastated if he died, and she didn't want to be responsible for it. Sure, we learn another reason later, but there's no plot hole if that scene isn't given. All you have to know in regards to that you can learn from the anime, which could've easily been included in another, less convoluted route. Quote:
Shinji doesn't really get any extra characterization in HF beyond why he's such a dick to Sakura. Even then, he's still a dick regardless of the reason, and he's a dick to everyone, so it doesn't change anything. Sakura got characterization, but it's just an explanation for why she's so timid. Again, it wasn't needed, as her characterization is a perfectly common character archetype. As for Rider? Rider doesn't do anything in Fate and UBW that needs explaining. She has little to no personality, and she's stuck with a horrible master. That's it. As for inconsistencies, how about we start with Shirou? In the other two routes, he's dead-set determined on his ideals, and is even willing to risk his life and future with Saber/Rin to accomplish it. In HF, however, he tosses away his ideals at the first possible opportunity. This is even before he starts getting his brain jacked up. Now, how about Ilya? She somehow figures out Shirou's connection to Archer, despite not doing so in either of the other two routes. Not only does she figure it out, but she's so certain about her assumption that she's willing to stake Shirou's life on it. Also, I don't even see the point to the dress, since I don't think it was even mentioned in the other two routes, and at the very least was hardly necessary. Spoiler for HF Ending:
Let's not forget Kotomine, who was able to go toe-to-toe with True Assassin, yet gets punked by a Shirou in Fate who wasn't even actively tracing anything. Oh, and speaking of True Assassin, that whole premise is ridiculous. It doesn't really break anything from Fate/UBW, but the premise behind it is ridiculous. Now, I know you're a Sakura fan, but you need to be able to see how much crazy crap they brought into her route that doesn't quite make sense when compared with Fate/UBW. |
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2010-04-09, 21:56 | Link #2007 | ||||||||||||
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Last edited by Cherry_Lover; 2010-04-09 at 22:16. |
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2010-04-09, 22:48 | Link #2009 | ||||||
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2010-04-09, 23:08 | Link #2010 | |||||||
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Shirou doesn't start out like Kiritsugu. He does borrow his ideal, yes, but he borrows the idealistic version of it, which is to save everyone, and he follows that whole-heartedly, because it fits well with who he is as a person. But, of course, the war makes him realise that he has to compromise, and his emphasis has to vary a bit. In Fate, it mostly stays intact, in UBW he accepts that it is sometimes necessary to kill one to save many (although, notably, he never has to put it into practice) but in HF he realises that his true wish is not to see people cry, and to prevent the people in front of him getting hurt, and he follows that. It's the same realisation Archer came to, only he came to it too late. Quote:
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And the name "True Assassin" is simply a way of distinguishing between the Hassan Assassin and the Fake Assassin summoned by Caster (who is a Fake Assassin since he quite clearly doesn't belong in the class, since he's not known for, you know, assassinating people). Oh, and Assassin isn't the same person every time. There are actually (IIRC) 19 possible different Assassins, corresponding to the 19 different Hassan-al-Sabbah's who led the Hassassin. They all have the same name, because every leader of the Hassassin took the name "Hassan-al-Sabbah" by tradition, but they're not a 'hive mind', they're not all the same being (hence the different NPs) and nor do they all have the same purpose (Zouken got that Hassan specifically because he wanted to be immortal). Last edited by Cherry_Lover; 2010-04-09 at 23:26. |
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2010-04-09, 23:52 | Link #2011 | |||||||
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2010-04-10, 10:30 | Link #2012 | |||||||||
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Seriously, can you give one reason why Fake Assassin should fit in the Assassin class, other than "because it's the only class that was left when Caster summoned him"? He has none of the properties of an Assassin at all, and (unlike the Archers) there's no particular property that he has that would make him a 'pseudo'-Assassin. The only reason Fake Assassin is called 'Assassin' is because True Assassin wasn't summoned like he should have been, so Fake Assassin took his place. |
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2010-04-10, 11:03 | Link #2013 | ||||||||
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For that matter, what qualifies someone to be any class? Saber would, logically, be someone with a sword. But we saw with Hercules that weapons can easily change their form to another type of weapon. The only one with a really "clear" definition is Rider, but even that's kind of loose when you think of Medusa's lore. Quote:
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2010-04-10, 11:32 | Link #2014 | ||||||||||
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I like the way that you've entirely ignored all the valid points I made that tear your argument to shreds, but you've picked up on the one small error in terminology I made. Ignore that particular bit of my argument then, because there are plenty more arguments I've given you for why Shirou was not remotely OOC in HF. Quote:
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As for what qualifies someone to be in a class, it's "whatever Nasu says qualifies them", and Nasu has said that, to be an Assassin (unless someone breaks the rules), you have to be Hassan-al-Sabbah. Quote:
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2010-04-10, 12:02 | Link #2015 | |||||||||
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Also, I forget, when did they learn what was wrong with Sakura? Before or after she went off the deep end? If it was before, it seems like it'd be a lot simpler to just Rule Breaker her right off the bat and save a lot of trouble. Quote:
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"He has the attributes to become any of the seven classes except Caster, and the greatest Noble Phantasm in his possession is a bow and arrow he obtained in the twelve labors called 'Shooting hundred beasts (Nine Lives)'." Then again, the only reason it may change form is because of HF and Shirou's use of it. So, one contradicts the other. Quote:
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Besides, the idea that no one but Zouken could summon him is just a plot device to excuse why he wasn't around before. Also, an Assassin is a melee class if you look at any sort of RPG. They generally rely more on agility, dexterity, and skill than strength and constitution. Sometimes they're referred to as Rogues rather than Assassins, but given the "dignified" titles of the other classes, Assassin is better than Rogue. |
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2010-04-10, 12:42 | Link #2016 |
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How ya guys doin'? Done bitching or are you still going strong?
Dude. It's perspective. What the hell? Okay Shirou was OOC to someone in HF, he was IC to someone else in HF. I don't udnerstand, the problem is pretty simple: Both of you are going "THIS IS TRUTHZ!" and the other is going "UR WRONGZ!1" Can this go back into a Q&A thread now? The original question probably being half a page down now, if not an entire page. Go collect yourselves and pick up that common sense you two dropped. The question wasn't all that difficult. GBD. Cherry, you turned this into an argument. Do learn to fix that~ |
2010-04-10, 12:53 | Link #2017 | ||||||||||||||
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At that point in time, she hadn't killed anyone, and was not certain to do so. So, killing her would go against his goal of saving everyone anyway. Quote:
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The explanation for the Assassin class is simple. The Grail War was set up in such a way that the servant summoned into the "Assassin" container will always be Hassan, unless someone breaks the rules. Fake Assassin is an exception because Caster summoned him, and she shouldn't be able to summon a servant. That's a perfectly logical explanation of why Assassin = Hassan. Quote:
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2010-04-10, 13:07 | Link #2018 | |
Casting a spell on you...
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Besides, I've looked into other questions and they get into pages of conversation as well. This is still a board for discussion. Although yes, guys you should probably take the convo to game discussion from this point if you feel it has become a full fledged debate. |
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2010-04-10, 13:43 | Link #2019 |
阿賀野型3番艦、矢矧 Lv180
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All posts regarding this "debate" was moved from the Q&A to this thread.
While I must say few answers are probably enlightening for some readers, there is a limit to a "interpretation joust". It may not be your cup of tea, but it is perhaps wiser to call it "agree to disagree" instead of carrying this debate any further. Feel free to settle few things up, but I would like this debate to be shortened into a civil discussion, not a terrible brawl regarding a mere matter of interpretation at hand, since such kind of heated debate is not only a good foothold for some flame session, but it is also an annoying surprise for readers, having a dragging not-so-nice-tchi-tchat plaguing what they are reading.
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2010-04-12, 21:15 | Link #2020 | |
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Now the following: 1) In the game, they left me sorta ambiguous as to if whether there has been or not a "true" winner of in the Holy Grail War, that is, if a Master was ever successful in one of the prior 3 HGWs and got his or her wish granted by the Great Grail. Just wondering if somebody can clarify me on this. 2) This is to do with Zelretch's ability: As he can use his magic to enable him to travel through infinity possibilities of parallel worlds, does that mean that there's also an infinity number of Zelretch, from many other worlds, also doing the same thing? 3) It's a bit too obvious, but that was Rider passing off as Tohsaka in Shiro's dream in HF's route, right? That's all got for now. |
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fate/stay night, visual novel |
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