Code Geass R2 - Episode 25 Discussion / Poll [END]

[bladeofdarkness]

purely oppressive atrocities
what do you think he DID during the two months
the britannians were trying to establish a pecking order that allows them to benifit from occupied areas
that requires being hard on anyone who opposes
but its a MEANS
lelouch was being insanely oppressive IN ORDER TO BE insanly oppressive
and all the atrocities HE commited were done for the sole purpose of COMMITING them
i dont quite think you follow what he actually DID in ZERO-R
he didnt PRETEND to become the worlds worst most horrible tyrent
he BECAME the worlds worst most horribel tyrent for REAL
that was the whole POINT
that he did it for a specific reason does not actually erase it

[kamehameha]

euphemia was an accidental one, yet he took the full blame for it--and didn't deny it. Something Schneizel would have denied.

Euphemia was just a puppet for Schneizel, she was used to temporarily calm down the black knights and establish a sense of the nation of Japan. She acknowledged the fact very early on in the series that she didn't possess what cornelia and schneizel possessed. She was killed, because there was a plot turn needed. Lelouche didn't go there to kill her, yet establish what she was doing and to remind her of how she was a puppet. Schnizel used Euphemia and Nunnally as puppets for his coup d'etat. He even used Cornelia--- Lelouche accepted defeat for a greater cause, whilst Schniezel opposed defeat at all costs, even if that meant to destroy hudreds of millions of lives. He was the only one who smiled when suzaku fired the first fleia into the battle of the tokyo settlement, and used it for experimental purposes, meaning lives had little to no value to him, for his unprecedented reign to happen.

[bladeofdarkness]

A)lelouch and Schneizel both ran their xanatos gambits at the same time
both tried to win and bring about the world THEY saw as the best
lelouch won and Schneizel lost
thats it
Schneizel way might have worked too you know
and lelouch's actions were no less horrible
the difference is what the final outcome would be
and lelouch's way is not a magical cure that turns the world into disny land

B)lelouch NEVER took the blame for euphie's massacre or death and instead of doing the honorable thing and clearing her name he chose to become a much bigger monster so people would FORGET about her
and he went there to make her SHOOT HIM
and destroy everyting she stood for and forever mark her as the woman who betrayed the hero of the japanese

C)lelouch didnt accpet defeat becouse he wasnt DEFEATED
he got exactly what he wanted to get
and Schneizel did accept defeat while on the shuttle
and did so rather well (set down and had a long polite converstion with his executioner)
he just expected lelouch to KILL him rather then geass him
and in ep 24 Schneizel was given an option of wiping out lelouch AND the OOBK at the same time
and he even considered it for a second
and then he rules it out as being too greedy and didnt do it
anyone else wouldnt think twice about it

[incorrupts]

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

A)lelouch and Schneizel both ran their xanatos gambits at the same time
both tried to win and bring about the world THEY saw as the best
lelouch won and Schneizel lost
thats it
Schneizel way might have worked too you know
and lelouch's actions were no less horrible
the difference is what the final outcome would be
and lelouch's way is not a magical cure that turns the world into disny land

Except, the way i see it at least, Lelouch wanted to give humanity the benefit of the doubt. Like he said in #23, Damocle's rule treats people like symbols.
So in a way, Lelouch's idea of a better world, was human-ish. To extinguish evil, is not easy task. Probably impossible.
But to erase everything, good and bad, is no solution either.

[bladeofdarkness]

Schneizel was trying to pull as CB
not wipe out the world
he was trying to prevent all future wars
it may not be the best way but its not the same as wiping out everything

dont get me wrong
im not saying that i support what Schneizel was trying to do
im saying that both HE and lelouch were doing the SAME THING
trying to bring about the change in the world that THEY considered for the best

[kamehameha]

lol you're missing very big points. Schniezels plan was to kill over 100 million people. He was happy that suzaku fired the fleia missle that took 25 million lives. He planned to use nunnally as a puppet, and leave her behind as he escaped from damocles. He was about to go "there we have it nunnally, fire the last missle, muhahaha"---to kill yourself. Scneizel was talking to a recording, which he didn;t know at the time, he was trying to find leighway to escape, and making cheap talk. He did not have the chance to accept defeat/deny it because Lelouche cast geas on him. WE all know he would not accept defeat, because that was the nature of Schniezel, which was reiterated throughout the whole story line.

The point that we're making is that Scneizel is no less of a karma houdini then lelouche, but is probably a even bigger one.

Lelouche did take blame for Euphy, by confessing it...? What is he supposed to do..? She was a puppet just like nunally. You're missing a lot of the more figurative things of geass and interpeting it incorrectly. WE all know he didn't mean to cast geass on her, so this shouldn't even be debatable. He had no control of his geass at this point yet he hid that fact in his heart, because he didn't believe in his excuses.

[kamehameha]

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

Schneizel was trying to pull as CB
not wipe out the world
he was trying to prevent all future wars
it may not be the best way but its not the same as wiping out everything

dont get me wrong
im not saying that i support what Schneizel was trying to do
im saying that both HE and lelouch were doing the SAME THING
trying to bring about the change in the world that THEY considered for the best

no you were saying that lelouche is the ultimate karma houdini if he was alive, yet Schneizel was no better---probably even worse... yet he lived. All schniezels geass did was make him obey Lelouche, without lelouche being around he didn't have to obey anything. One can say that he maintained his free will after the death of lelouche.

[incorrupts]

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

Schneizel was trying to pull as CB
not wipe out the world
he was trying to prevent all future wars
it may not be the best way but its not the same as wiping out everything

Lelouch wanted to show the world, how much nice-candy it is, to be under the rule of a pure tyrant. And i mean, all of it. {cause Britania, half did this anyway}
And then, by killing himself, he gave them the chance, to appreciate the start-over, and to recognize and value highly their present.
Sure, he could just become the emperor and rule the world like a good king would do. But ZR, was a way to atone for his sins too. He thought, he did not deserve to be in that better world.
So yeah, it was un-necessary to do all this, but he believed, he had to redeem himself as well. Fate of destruction, is also the joy of rebirth. Idk, maybe the writers thought, that this was the most epic way to close the series in the end.

[bladeofdarkness]

Originally Posted by kamehameha

Lelouche did take blame for Euphy, by confessing it...? What is he supposed to do..? She was a puppet just like nunally. You're missing a lot of the more figurative things of geass and interpeting it incorrectly. WE all know he didn't mean to cast geass on her, so this shouldn't even be debatable. He had no control of his geass at this point yet he hid that fact in his heart, because he didn't believe in his excuses.

Schneizel didnt get away with it
he is zero's puppet for the rest of his life
zero, not lelouch
some would consider it a fate worse then death

and he NEVER confessed tp what he did to euphie
telling suzaku "its my fault" doesnt count for shit
THE ENTIRE WORLD still thinks of her as the massacre princess
and he DID mean to geass her
re-read my post
he planned to have her shoot him which would destroy everything she was trying to do and make her the hated princess who tried to kill the hero of the numbers
he didnt plan to have her murder all those people
but he planned to make her do something JUST as bad to the public

[azul120]

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

purely oppressive atrocities
what do you think he DID during the two months
the britannians were trying to establish a pecking order that allows them to benifit from occupied areas
that requires being hard on anyone who opposes
but its a MEANS
lelouch was being insanely oppressive IN ORDER TO BE insanly oppressive
and all the atrocities HE commited were done for the sole purpose of COMMITING them
i dont quite think you follow what he actually DID in ZERO-R
he didnt PRETEND to become the worlds worst most horrible tyrent
he BECAME the worlds worst most horribel tyrent for REAL
that was the whole POINT
that he did it for a specific reason does not actually erase it

No offense, but are you just overlapping the original intent with your own interpretation? Because Lelouch became a monster in order to focus the world's negativity onto himself. He didn't do it for his own amusement or gain. Far from it.

B)lelouch NEVER took the blame for euphie's massacre or death and instead of doing the honorable thing and clearing her name he chose to become a much bigger monster so people would FORGET about her
and he went there to make her SHOOT HIM
and destroy everyting she stood for and forever mark her as the woman who betrayed the hero of the japanese

As he saw it, there was no way to make everyone buy the Geass explanation. And he may have intended to make her shoot him at the SAZ gathering, but, and this is very important, he changed his mind and agreed to work with her after she told him she would be dropping her status as Britannian nobility. You seem to be conveniently overlooking that in both of your posts.

[kamehameha]

Originally Posted by azul120

No offense, but are you just overlapping the original intent with your own interpretation? Because Lelouch became a monster in order to focus the world's negativity onto himself. He didn't do it for his own amusement or gain. Far from it.



As he saw it, there was no way to make everyone buy the Geass explanation. And he may have intended to make her shoot him at the SAZ gathering, but, and this is very important, he changed his mind and agreed to work with her after she told him she would be dropping her status as Britannian nobility. You seem to be conveniently overlooking that in both of your posts.

indeed, and the geass being public knowledge, would just mean more people would hunt for it, leading to more evil. In the end, he acted like a bubble and absorbed all the evil into himself and dying with it. He even stopped Charles Ragnarok from occuring, because he fought for the future.

[bladeofdarkness]

i'm ponting out that he did horrible things so long as it promoted what he WANTED to do
he did while he was ZERO and he did it again when he was emperor
and in both cases he did it becouse HE wanted to gain something and didnt care who gets hurt

and yes
he did stop from his original plan to geass euphie becouse he was confronted with the cold hard fact that she really WAS the real thing
she actually WAS what he was pretending to be and was willing to PAY for it
and she convinced him to work with her for the GREATER GOOD rather then just what HE wants
which is my point
during the entire course of season 1 lelouch was self-centered (or more to the point nunnaly centered) and would do ANYTHING to achive what he wants without too much concern to what he has to do
every now and then he gets a chance to show that he is a human being after all by caring about other people
but most of the time he is completely self centered
in season 2 he starts off the same way
then after ep 7 he starts being more "heroic" and actually tried to BECOME what he had always PRETENDED to be (while still being somewhat self centered)
and finally he becomes about the greater good of the entire world
and ironiclly he also becomes a much greater monster in order to achive it
he is a VERY conflicted cahracter and thats part of what i love about him
but he isnt a "hero" in the traditional sense of the word

[kamehameha]

the things he did as emperor were part of Zero Requiem, which was a way to get the worlds hate towards lelouche, in which he would serve as a massive bubble and aborb & absorb the world's hate, problems, etc into himself. His death would serve as taking that massive bubble out with him. Zero Requiem and his fate were decided before he became emperor. Do you not see how he used himself and died an EPIC death, his fate is quite sad actually.

[bladeofdarkness]

i have already said it before
but lelouch is only considered a "good guy" at the end of the show becosue we didnt see all the stuff he did that MADE HIM the most hated person on earth
he did kill lots and lots of people after all for no other reason then to BE hated
thats not a by product
its a crime agains humanity

and becouse the only person who died during the final battle was diethard
1)nunnaly
2)kallen
3)kaguya
the list is longer but i chose those three becouse all three love lelouch and all three were dragged into the final battle by his actions with no other motive
pick any one of them and have her die in the final battle
and it would be impossible (or at least much harder) to sell the idea that what lelouch did was a good thing

[incorrupts]

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

i'm ponting out that he did horrible things so long as it promoted what he WANTED to do
he did while he was ZERO and he did it again when he was emperor
and in both cases he did it becouse HE wanted to gain something and didnt care who gets hurt

If we apply this logic, then what do we gain? That everyone is selfish?
Kallen rebelled, because SHE wanted to gain something and did not care who gets hurt.
Nunally pressed the Damocles bomb-button, because SHE wanted to gain something and did not care who gets hurt.
Suzaku joined Lelouch, because HE wanted to get get something, and did not care who gets hurt.

Should i go on with the list? The way you say it, you make it seem like there is pure-selfish motive. When, no, there is not.
The certain charas i mentioned {and i could list a few others too} fought because THEY wanted to, but strive to achieve for a better world. Not only for their loved ones, but for everyone else as well.
That does not give them automatic excuse of course for their stained hands, but their intents are not selfish, as you make it out to be. You definitely giving no credit to Lelouch for ZR.
I am not saying, that this method is rainbow {no method actually would be} but he decided to take that option, because he thought it was the best. He did it to atone for his sins, but mostly, for the world itself. It is quite obvious, in the Suzaku convo in the finale and with C.C back in #23.
We might not like something, and the way it was delivered, but that does not mean it is bad in its entirety.

[Frostfire]

Originally Posted by Levy

@Frost: but point is, that Gino never actively harmed personally any chinese citizen, he fight and invesive army there, the BK, and still, you claim as inconcievable that he is not sent to the death row once he cross the frontier of China when peace is settled..?

I can't see any justice in what you are imagining, really

He tried to kill their Empress, and was supporting a party that was actively hurting its people. I never said there was justice in him being hunted down on the streets, but there is also no justice in him being completely ommited from any reprecussions for his actions. As I said, rightfully, he should have been put on trial and he'd have, at almost 90% certainty, been executed. The exact same way the SS were treated post-WWII.

As for what he fought, he fought against the people's wishes at the point where the Unechs and Schneizel and the KoR sold out Xing-ke. He was fighting against the people's saviour. He may not be directly going up to and kicking citizens in the face, but he's trampling all over their hopes. This isn't only limited to Gino, Suzaku is also just as culpable and if you recall, he was considered to have sold off his ideals for power and become an ass hole and shinigami.

Originally Posted by Levy

Your are allowed to hate Gino Weinberg as a pustol, but please, keep hating him as a dumb blondie with questionable morals and a ridicolously small brain, not as the worst bloodthirsty mass murder the World has ever know, implying that everyone that doesn't feel this way was only fooled by his gay-able pretty smile.

I hate him as I hate any fascist, as well as any poorly characterized character that has their head on backwards. His morales are downright atrocious and he is presented as a bloodthirsty murderer. Remember, he is the one who was waiting for the excuse to slaughter the Japanese at the SAZ. I do not try to characterize him as Hitler or Stalin, just as a vile man who made 0 sense in the show.

[pampz21]

haha...i finally get it now...to whom did C.C is talking 2...It was Lelouch! but in the Sword of Akasha!in d world of C!

[yvj]

I just wanna throw something out there after thinking about it a bit.


Here's the thing about Lelouch IMO.

After he killed Charles he couldn't walk away because Schniezel was waiting in the wings. I think we could assume he never wanted to be Emperor but he couldn't take on Schniezel w/o an army. He mind rapes the entire army so he can beat Schniezel in the CG equivalent of World War 2. War ends and he has the world in his hands.

So he's all in. He can't pretend to be a good guy now. He'd be lying to himself (or his impression of himself at the time) and to the people he used and killed to get his way.

Well now he has the power to change the world. What's he going to do? He's going to take it to the limit. At that point (After for example Euphie and her massacre, Shirley dying because she loved him, Geass Cult massacre, Rolo dying for him when he was going to kill him, Schniezel basically shoving the truth in his face, Tokyo explosion etc etc) Lelouch 100% believed in playing the role of a demon. Might as well be the demon, go down the rest of the path he knew he was going down from the beginning, and bring some sort of justice to the world.

See the problem is even if there were better and more logical alternatives Lelouch unfortunately didn't think it was his right to now play the hero. He probably thought he'd be spitting in the face of those he trampled upon to suddenly be seen as the world's savior although ironically that is what he was doing.

Two Paths to peace

Benevolent Emperor a role based and founded on lies because of the horrific crimes and abuses he had to do to get there.

Keep being a demon

Spoiler for Lelouch:

I think Lelouch should have gone the other way (first path) cuz I would have loved to see him worshiped a s a hero. But I understand he's the kind of stubborn ass who plays his role 100%. The ultimate method actor.

[azul120]

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

i'm ponting out that he did horrible things so long as it promoted what he WANTED to do
he did while he was ZERO and he did it again when he was emperor
and in both cases he did it becouse HE wanted to gain something and didnt care who gets hurt

and yes
he did stop from his original plan to geass euphie becouse he was confronted with the cold hard fact that she really WAS the real thing
she actually WAS what he was pretending to be and was willing to PAY for it
and she convinced him to work with her for the GREATER GOOD rather then just what HE wants
which is my point
during the entire course of season 1 lelouch was self-centered (or more to the point nunnaly centered) and would do ANYTHING to achive what he wants without too much concern to what he has to do
every now and then he gets a chance to show that he is a human being after all by caring about other people
but most of the time he is completely self centered
in season 2 he starts off the same way
then after ep 7 he starts being more "heroic" and actually tried to BECOME what he had always PRETENDED to be (while still being somewhat self centered)
and finally he becomes about the greater good of the entire world
and ironiclly he also becomes a much greater monster in order to achive it
he is a VERY conflicted cahracter and thats part of what i love about him
but he isnt a "hero" in the traditional sense of the word

Then we're basically in agreement.

@yvj: Well put. Except of course that Schneizel manipulated the truth against Lelouch in R2 19. Another reason why he was such a fiendish, formidable opponent.

[yvj]

Originally Posted by azul120

Then we're basically in agreement.

@yvj: Well put. Except of course that Schneizel manipulated the truth against Lelouch in R2 19. Another reason why he was such a fiendish, formidable opponent.

Yeah Schneizel played around with the truth. But essentially Lelouch's hands were very stained.