AnimeSuki Forums

Register Forum Rules FAQ Members List Social Groups Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   AnimeSuki Forum > Anime Discussion > Older Series > Retired > Retired M-Z > Umineko

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 2015-08-21, 08:47   Link #35301
RandomUser
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2015
I think that the episodes:

5-6 were written by Tohya.
7 written by Ikuko.
8 Tohya again.

If we follow my logic, which obviously could be wrong because I don't have any proof to back it up, those tricks weren't thought by Sayo, but using her identity as the central axis of the tricks.
RandomUser is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2015-08-21, 10:34   Link #35302
Mali
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
It's hard to choose whether Tohya or Ikuko had written the stories. Well, Iku refered the books as MY books. It's a fact Ikuko has the skill of writing sche built up and Battler/Tohya was just a reader. Toya may gave the ideas like tricks, pattern etc. ...and Iku wrote them down and added meta.
Because EP 5 and 6 had "different" style regarding the mystery and Ange said the tales get more credibility each time I would say Iku followed the pattern "first my red hering answer, then Tohya's answer".
I agree the 7th was written by Iku.
I think someone (Haguma?) mentioned that Twilight was started by Iku and Tohya together, it fits since Battler and Bern started the game at the same time. But why was Confession even needed (in the manga) if the Basis was already included in Requiem?
Mali is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2015-08-22, 15:07   Link #35303
RandomUser
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Thinking this again, EP5 was written by Ikuko, EP6 by Tohya, EP7 Tohya with Ikuko and the last one was Tohya alone.

I think EP7 was Tohya answering Beato's letters and at the same time explaining the case to Ikuko.
RandomUser is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2015-08-23, 19:29   Link #35304
Apaula
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Quick question. How does Shannon's death work in Ep 4? How does she close the well while also shooting herself and hiding the gun so that Battler doesn't find it?"
Apaula is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2015-08-23, 20:35   Link #35305
haguruma
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Germany
Age: 33
Send a message via ICQ to haguruma Send a message via MSN to haguruma
Quote:
Originally Posted by Apaula View Post
Quick question. How does Shannon's death work in Ep 4? How does she close the well while also shooting herself and hiding the gun so that Battler doesn't find it?"
The well does not open, that was a lie told through Kyrie to convince Battler of the witch's story.
It was the same trick as in EP2. She tied a heavy object with a rope to the gun and dangled the heavy object into the well. When she shot herself the gun was pulled into the well.
haguruma is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2015-08-24, 11:28   Link #35306
Apaula
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Quote:
Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
The well does not open, that was a lie told through Kyrie to convince Battler of the witch's story.
It was the same trick as in EP2. She tied a heavy object with a rope to the gun and dangled the heavy object into the well. When she shot herself the gun was pulled into the well.
I think that makes sense? So there's still a hole but the well itself just doesn't open? And the only way to Kuwadorian is through the gold room then I'm assuming?
Apaula is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2015-08-24, 12:06   Link #35307
RandomUser
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2015
There is three ways to go to Kuwadorian:

1) Golden land (Probably the only way in the gameboard)
2) By boat (Impossible on the gameboard because of the storm)
3) Through the forest (Very difficult but possible inside the gameboard)
RandomUser is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2015-08-24, 12:08   Link #35308
haguruma
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Germany
Age: 33
Send a message via ICQ to haguruma Send a message via MSN to haguruma
Quote:
Originally Posted by Apaula View Post
I think that makes sense? So there's still a hole but the well itself just doesn't open? And the only way to Kuwadorian is through the gold room then I'm assuming?
The well is sealed with an iron grating that is set into the well itself. Battler tries to break it open with (if I remember correctly) an axe, but fails to even deal a bigger scratch to it. He then drops something inside to test the depths, but comments that nothing bigger than his arm or a gun could pass through the grating. It was very clear that it was meant to be a hint that the culprit dropped the weapon into the well.

The only known way to the underground tunnels seems to be through the gold room, which is sensible considering that it is the other side of where the base used to be and this would then be the escape tunnel back then.
haguruma is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2015-08-24, 13:35   Link #35309
Apaula
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Oh cool, thanks for the info!

Another question. In ep 4, how did the first twilight occur? Since Kinzo appears and such. I get that it was an illusion but it seems almost the entirety of Episode 4 is just fantasy play and I don't quite understand most of what happened because of it.
Apaula is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2015-08-24, 21:22   Link #35310
haguruma
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Germany
Age: 33
Send a message via ICQ to haguruma Send a message via MSN to haguruma
Quote:
Originally Posted by Apaula View Post
Another question. In ep 4, how did the first twilight occur? Since Kinzo appears and such. I get that it was an illusion but it seems almost the entirety of Episode 4 is just fantasy play and I don't quite understand most of what happened because of it.
Just try ripping the fantasy from the scenes and you might get a hint of what might have happened. So "Kinzo" came into the hall to greet his "children", and when they didn't live up to expectations he summoned the (Win)ch[i]esters to kill off 6 of them, taking the others hostage.

I admit that EP4 is the most difficult scenario in terms of there only being a single line of verbal communication. Battler is not allowed to view any of the crime scenes so we are left with what we get at the end.

So Gohda and Kumasawa are likely not dead when Battler first passes the shed at the end, but George clearly is. He is not able to confirm any further deaths until several hours later, which leaves the culprit ample time to go around and finish anything left undone and finally killing themselves near the well.

More than a fantasy play I would see EP4 as one of the biggest hints in terms of how Beatrice's magic works.
haguruma is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2015-08-25, 00:30   Link #35311
RandomUser
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2015
To me the EP4, more than explaining how the magic works, was more to explain why the magic is needed. In EP3 Virgilia explained literally what the magic and fantasy were, but she didn't explain the motives to use magic.

EP4 in terms of how dunnit is very simple, everyone were just lying to Battler, but in this episode Beatrice says clearly that Battler has a promise to fulfill and I don't remember in which gameboard, but Shanon was telling to the cousins the embarrasing dark history of Battler which included the promise to came back riding a white horse, so one just needed to connect it together with all those strange gazes that Shanon and Kanon was giving to Battler to understand the heart of the mystery.
RandomUser is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2015-08-25, 08:42   Link #35312
Mali
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
I wonder what's the payback of Kanon was. It wasn't Battler helping Kanon with the bags, isn't?
Mali is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2015-08-25, 09:08   Link #35313
RandomUser
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2015
I suspected that Kanon was homo in the scene where Battler was helping Kanon with the bags, but It took me a while to realize the connection of that scene to Shanon and Beato.
RandomUser is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2015-08-25, 19:03   Link #35314
Apaula
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Quote:
Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
Just try ripping the fantasy from the scenes and you might get a hint of what might have happened. So "Kinzo" came into the hall to greet his "children", and when they didn't live up to expectations he summoned the (Win)ch[i]esters to kill off 6 of them, taking the others hostage.

I admit that EP4 is the most difficult scenario in terms of there only being a single line of verbal communication. Battler is not allowed to view any of the crime scenes so we are left with what we get at the end.

So Gohda and Kumasawa are likely not dead when Battler first passes the shed at the end, but George clearly is. He is not able to confirm any further deaths until several hours later, which leaves the culprit ample time to go around and finish anything left undone and finally killing themselves near the well.

More than a fantasy play I would see EP4 as one of the biggest hints in terms of how Beatrice's magic works.
So Yasu goes to them, gives them a chat about how she they suck and kills six of them?

Then she kills Jessica and George, with Jessica forcing her to call first then boom headshot?

I'm guessing Gohda and Kumasawa are just pretending to be hanging while standing on something.
Apaula is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2015-08-26, 10:24   Link #35315
RandomUser
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Quote:
Originally Posted by Apaula View Post
So Yasu goes to them, gives them a chat about how she they suck and kills six of them?

Then she kills Jessica and George, with Jessica forcing her to call first then boom headshot?

I'm guessing Gohda and Kumasawa are just pretending to be hanging while standing on something.
You are missing the most important part about that gameboard, as I said before the answer of that riddle is really easy, everybody are lying to Battler, the question is why they need to lie to him.

The key point of that gameboard was showing the motive of the case right in front of Battler's face while shoving the answer at his face, shouting, waving the arms, with neon signs, dancing and singing.
RandomUser is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2015-08-26, 13:04   Link #35316
turlingdrome
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
I'm not too sure about EP4's solution myself, but it's probably worth considering why EP4 is so different from the other games. It can't be coincidence that suddenly the crimes start earlier, and that so many accomplices are willing to participate.
Also remember that the true culprit doesn't have access to unlimited power. Who lived and who died might be random chance, but it's hard to imagine a human being both willing and capable of choosing them on a whim. Which people survived might tell us something about the truth behind the lies.
turlingdrome is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2015-08-26, 13:24   Link #35317
RandomUser
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2015
In the fourth game, everyone died

In all the gameboards is heavily implied that accomplices are easy to get using golden magic + gun + bomb, the only stable accomplices are the servants. Also it shows that Kyrie is the most dangerous accomplice to the culprit.

The culprit of the gameboards doesn't have unlimited power but has lots of money, a gigantic bomb, many guns, a loyal accomplice (Genji), a stupid accomplice (Kumasawa + Gohda) and all the keys of the mansion, that's enough to control everyone as she wants.
RandomUser is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2015-08-26, 13:58   Link #35318
turlingdrome
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
I agree Yasu had lots of tools, but I don't see how any of those things would allow her to launch an assault on the family conference.
Like you said, Genji's the only one likely to actually take a gun to the family members besides Yasu herself. Are we supposed to believe that the two of them held all the adult Ushiromiyas and the remaining servants at bay, killing half of them and holding all the others captive for hours on end? I doubt anyone but Gohda could actually be bribed into committing murder, and it's dubious that Gohda would trust Yasu enough to take her side, given his low opinion of her even as a servant.

Not saying this whole thing's impossible, but it certainly wouldn't be easy, and the Knox rules require that we figure out how she did it.
turlingdrome is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2015-08-27, 01:16   Link #35319
RandomUser
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2015
My solution summary of the solution of the fourth gameboard:

First twilight, nobody died, they were just lying. Remember that Gohda and Kumasawa aren't as loyal as Genji and they aren't willing to help a killing for money, so they can only contribute if they think the murders are false.

Second twilight, George and Jessica were headshooted, Jessica was tricked to call Battler before showing the gun.

In between, Beatrice and Genji kills for real the sacrifices for the first twilight, this time is two gun armed men against unarmed persons so they could pull it off easily.

Fourth twilight, Kanon persona is killed.

Don't remember the order of the twilights, but they are being killed one by one by Beatrice and Genji, Kyrie obviously suspected the "murder game" so while she was tricking Battler about magic being real she also gave him some hints. Shanon shooted herself and made the gun fly away using a rock.

At last, Battler dies in the explosion of the island.
RandomUser is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2015-08-27, 02:32   Link #35320
haguruma
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Germany
Age: 33
Send a message via ICQ to haguruma Send a message via MSN to haguruma
I think we must also consider that for EP4 two perspectives collide.
As CotGW tells us, these were plans that the culprit was planning to set into motion, but at the same time the story is written by an author with incomplete memory of the events.

In the end it doesn't really matter when the people in the dining room died, but I also see a strong hint towards what actually happened in the events depicted to us.
What I always found interesting is that "Kinzo" is basically just standing there and ordering the Chiesters to attack. Even when Rosa attacks him, she is taken out not by him but by one of the Chiesters who is busy holding those down who aren't killed.

Even before EP7 I saw it as a possibility that we have a coded way of saying, "Kinzo" handed out the guns but somebody else used them.
haguruma is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 20:50.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
We use Silk.