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View Poll Results: Madoka Magica - Episode 09 Rating
Perfect 10 92 52.27%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 36 20.45%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 29 16.48%
7 out of 10 : Good 12 6.82%
6 out of 10 : Average 4 2.27%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 0 0%
4 out of 10 : Poor 0 0%
3 out of 10 : Bad 1 0.57%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 0 0%
1 out of 10 : Painful 2 1.14%
Voters: 176. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2011-03-03, 23:50   Link #141
SagaraSouske
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Madoka will succeed, at a price, QB will fail.
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Old 2011-03-03, 23:55   Link #142
NeoEevee
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Originally Posted by taofd View Post
Lol, this is the mahou shoujo version of Gurren Lagann
...in complete and utter reverse.

Gurren Lagann was an affectionate parody turned serious, with some serious examining of things later on. This is ripping apart the magical girl genre and examining its innards under a microscope, then setting them on fire for good measure. D:

Okay, I survived episodes three, six and eight, but this was insane. Two characters in one go, that's just... aw, man.

Y'know what? I may be writing these girls into my crossover series... but I'm not on the fence on whether or not to kill them off anymore. Everyone lives. Mami won't get her Soul Gem smashed, Sayaka will pull through being possessed by a decades older incredibly creepy psychopath, Madoka will not sacrifice herself to tip the scales of the final battle... yeah. They'll go through a psychological hell, but they'll pull through it. Having the White Devil and company and the Happiest Square Enix Protagonist Ever close by will help, methinks.

Because I NEED HAPPY FANFICTION, GAIZ. 8[ INCREDIBLY HAPPY FANFICTION TO PULL THROUGH THIS.

I AM IN DESPAIR. THE RAMPANT CHARACTER DEATH IN THIS SERIES HAS LEFT ME IN DESPAIR.
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Old 2011-03-03, 23:56   Link #143
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Originally Posted by taofd View Post
I haven't given up hope yet lol. I think this is a big step forward in plot actually. Many things have become clear now, and I am further reinforced that this is a story about Madoka's coming of age and the concept of light overcoming dark.

Lol, this is the mahou shoujo version of Gurren Lagann
Well... let's say that Kyubey is saying the truth.

Then what?

The story then becomes about whether a girl will sacrifice herself in order to prevent/delay universal entropy. That's a rather "out there" moral dilemma to place as the very core of an anime series' conflict.

However, maybe it isn't the real core conflict, and in classic anime protagonist style, Madoka finds a "better way". Although that could very well feel cheap if the "better way" amounts to a deus ex machina.

Or the whole univeral entropy issue could be dropped and forgotten about, in which case, it'll be a nasty hanging plot-thread.

I just don't see how this ends well, frankly.

Yes, the plot is moving forward, but it's going into tricky territory. I hope Gen navigates it well...

Edit for Reckoner: The difference between this show and Nanoha, is that Nanoha brought in the sci-fi elements fairly early on. Heck, even Raising Heart had a sci-if element to it, and it was there from almost the very beginning. This show has had Faust allusions and analogies, "witches", "soul gems", "grief seeds". And it's highest tech were guns and bombs (magically created guns and bombs, seemingly so at least). Everything looked surreal and magical. This is the realm of magical fantasy, and not sci-fi at all, imo.

Sorry, but I just don't like this plot direction.
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Old 2011-03-04, 00:04   Link #144
Guardian Enzo
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Old 2011-03-04, 00:16   Link #145
Reckoner
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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Edit for Reckoner: The difference between this show and Nanoha, is that Nanoha brought in the sci-fi elements fairly early on. Heck, even Raising Heart had a sci-if element to it, and it was there from almost the very beginning. This show has had Faust allusions and analogies, "witches", "soul gems", "grief seeds". And it's highest tech were guns and bombs (magically created guns and bombs, seemingly so at least). Everything looked surreal and magical. This is the realm of magical fantasy, and not sci-fi at all, imo.

Sorry, but I just don't like this plot direction.
I know you don't like this plot direction, but I'm not trying to convince you otherwise .

What I am saying though is that this was a rather logical lead up to it, to which you responded, "they didn't introduce it early enough," which I'm not sure how that matters.

Did you honestly believe that Kyube was simply some magical anomaly that randomly made contact on earth and for some reason started to contract girls to make them into witches for some yet unexplored reason?

You also seemed to ignore my main point about the Faust analogies.

Again, I have no problem with you disliking the plot or its direction. But if you're arguing that this was out of left field, then I find that simply wrong IMO.

Also, you seem to be contradicting yourself a bit here... Nanoha is a very magical show, and this is meshed in with more sci-fi elements. Clearly magical girl shows don't exclude sci-fi elements then in your opinion by default? So why do you take such a stance against Madoka? Because it seemed so surreal to you and thus could only possibly take place in the realm of fantasy? Is it a rule that fantasy and sci-fi don't go together?

I mean, there have definitely been many sci-fi shows that feature aliens that had some sort of powers that almost seemed like magic, and were extremely surreal. Did you take offence there too?
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Old 2011-03-04, 00:21   Link #146
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Originally Posted by Kazu-kun View Post
Yeah, I was wondering about that. Although, Incubator admits Madoka would become the strongest witch. Now if the strongest-witch Madoka is strong enough to destroy the world or even the universe, that kinda defeats Incubator's supposed purpose. This would happen even if MG Madoka change the laws of the universe to save it.

I don't know, his story is full of holes....
just finished watching and i was reading through this thread then i rad this and it reminded me, back in episode 5 i believe, after sayaka transfered the darkness from her soul gem to the grief seed (for the last time) kyubey "ate" it. That has never been mentioned again so either its a major blam or how exactly incubators delay the universal entropy. if the latter, then how would they be able to harvest madokas grief seed if she becomes the strongest witch in the universe
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Old 2011-03-04, 00:22   Link #147
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"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic." -- Arthur C. Clarke

"Witchcraft to the ignorant, .... Simple science to the learned" -- Leigh Brackett
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Old 2011-03-04, 00:26   Link #148
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Originally Posted by SagaraSouske View Post
It doesn't matter if they do not understand emotion. All they need to understand is each individual human is a life upon itself, which QB clearly knows, since he is actively bringing out souls from each girl he contract. Hive Queen respects life, she just thought humans were like her drones and do not possess life and intelligence by themselves. Once she did realize that humans are not a single hive mind like her, on the brink of her species' destruction, her chosen action was to forgive and entrust the survival of her species to Ender because they can reach an understanding through him and the memories passed down to the new queen allowed them to co-exist peacefully with mankind. In fact, QB showed a greater understanding of humans then the new hive queen ever did since he was able grasp and master human language, which Hive Queen never did because the way she communicated was through philotic connections. It wasn't ignorance or lack of understanding on QB's part but more of a lack of concern and respect for human lives. They simply don't care if they sacrifice us as long as they get what they wanted, the energy.
I'm saying the concept of individual life has no meaning to Kyuubey. Sure an individual can be unhappy about their situation but ultimately their feeling and emotions don't matter. They're just a part o the machine, completely expendable. Kyuubey doesn't care about the girls' suffering because their suffering has no meaning to him, if his species even has a concept of suffering.

At most to him Madoka whining is no more significant than a child crying when she's being vaccinated. Sure she is upset now, her parents think, but if she knew what I knew she wouldn't complain so much. Kyuubey's species is on a higher level of existence than the human race. He said that humans may join them someday but until then they need to use magical girls to keep the universe "warm" for the humans when they get there. For now each individual human is just an ant to Kyuubey's people. He's confident that when humans as a population are sitting alongside his kind they will thank him for the work he did so that they could have that chance.
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Old 2011-03-04, 00:29   Link #149
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You can perceive QB that way, but that's not how Hive Queens are.
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Old 2011-03-04, 00:31   Link #150
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Just finished watching. Although I'm also a bit weirded out with the introduction of "death by entropy" everything else about this episode is almost perfect. Kyubey's exposition wasn't really that much of a drag and Kyoko's talk with Madoka and her death was very well executed. Nothing new with the music... still awesome as always and the animation is well done too. Kyoko's big magic is even more impressive than Mami's.

We still have 3 more episodes left to see how much truth Kyubey has told Madoka. I just hope Kyubey's race turns out to be the real problem and Madoka wipes them off the universe. lol anyway 9/10 from me.
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Old 2011-03-04, 00:36   Link #151
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Originally Posted by therationalpi View Post
A lot of the story going forward seems pretty clear to me. It will be revealed that Homura went back in time because Madoka becoming a witch was the end of the world. Her goal was to stop Madoka from making the pact. Said pact was made by Madoka to stop the Walpurgis night. Homura's plan from the beginning was to stop the Walpurgis night before Madoka got involved, while stopping anything that would cause Madoka to prematurely accept the contract (and also several things out of good will, she's not the cold calculator that Kyuubey is). Kyuubey figured this out, as we saw when he said that Kyouko's death facilitated that end.

The question is, who will succeed and who will fail?
Assuming all went according to plan. It is implied that Mami dying so prematurely (or at all), was not according to Homura's prediction.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SagaraSouske View Post
You can perceive QB that way, but that's not how Hive Queens are.
Lol, I love how people keep trying to rationalize characters in ways they can understand. What makes you think QB is exactly like a Hive Queen from Ender?

Last edited by Daniel E.; 2011-03-04 at 04:47.
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Old 2011-03-04, 00:38   Link #152
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reckoner View Post
What I am saying though is that this was a rather logical lead up to it, to which you responded, "they didn't introduce it early enough," which I'm not sure how that matters.
Was "universal entropy", as a major concern, in any way, shape, or form, even lightly foreshadowed? I mean, even symbolically?

Beyond that, my point is that you can mix sci-fi and fantasy, and it can work, but if you're going to do that, it's good to do it up front. Like Nanoha largely did, and like Star Wars did.

Let me use an analogy here:

Suppose you're watching a medieval fantasy anime. Magical swords, bows and arrows, shining plate armor, eldritch blasts, that sort of stuff.

Then in Episode 9 of 12, after a city-wrecking dragon is slain, a classic Area 51-style alien pops up, shouts "That dragon was my pet, you creeps!" and shoots the protagonists with his high-tech ray gun.

To me, that's kind of universe breaking, frankly. It does feel really out of left field to bring in aliens and high tech and that sort of stuff that late on in a narrative.


Quote:
Did you honestly believe that Kyube was simply some magical anomaly that randomly made contact on earth and for some reason started to contract girls to make them into witches for some yet unexplored reason?
I thought he could be a magical or mystical being, yes. Why not? Many magical girl familiars are that, hence the term "familiar".


Quote:

You also seemed to ignore my main point about the Faust analogies.
Well, a lot of people were taking them pretty seriously, Reckoner. You might not have been, but Panzerfan and Mentar, amongst several others, were.


Quote:

Again, I have no problem with you disliking the plot or its direction. But if you're arguing that this was out of left field, then I find that simply wrong IMO.
"Universal entropy", as any sort of significant concern in this anime, was not foreshadowed whatsoever, in my opinion.

How is that not out of left field?


Quote:

Also, you seem to be contradicting yourself a bit here...
No, I'm not. I already pointed out the difference. Up front vs. late reveal.


Quote:
Nanoha is a very magical show, and this is meshed in with more sci-fi elements. Clearly magical girl shows don't exclude sci-fi elements then in your opinion by default? So why do you take such a stance against Madoka?
Because there was nothing even remotely sci-fi about it until now. Like a medieval fantasy anime that brings in aliens with ray guns at Episode 9 of 12.


Quote:
Because it seemed so surreal to you and thus could only possibly take place in the realm of fantasy? Is it a rule that fantasy and sci-fi don't go together?
I think they can go together, but it's often a difficult fusion to pull off, and it probably should be done upfront, and not as a late reveal.
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Old 2011-03-04, 00:44   Link #153
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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Well... let's say that Kyubey is saying the truth.

Then what?

The story then becomes about whether a girl will sacrifice herself in order to prevent/delay universal entropy. That's a rather "out there" moral dilemma to place as the very core of an anime series' conflict.

However, maybe it isn't the real core conflict, and in classic anime protagonist style, Madoka finds a "better way". Although that could very well feel cheap if the "better way" amounts to a deus ex machina.

Or the whole univeral entropy issue could be dropped and forgotten about, in which case, it'll be a nasty hanging plot-thread.

I just don't see how this ends well, frankly.

Yes, the plot is moving forward, but it's going into tricky territory. I hope Gen navigates it well...

Edit for Reckoner: The difference between this show and Nanoha, is that Nanoha brought in the sci-fi elements fairly early on. Heck, even Raising Heart had a sci-if element to it, and it was there from almost the very beginning. This show has had Faust allusions and analogies, "witches", "soul gems", "grief seeds". And it's highest tech were guns and bombs (magically created guns and bombs, seemingly so at least). Everything looked surreal and magical. This is the realm of magical fantasy, and not sci-fi at all, imo.

Sorry, but I just don't like this plot direction.
You're assuming she has to sacrifice herself. It doesn't have to be that way. Magic allows you to kick reason to the curb and do whatever the **** Madoka wants.

On a more serious note. I think there are things even QB doesn't know. He doesn't know how precisely powerful Madoka will be, only that she will be very powerful. We know it depends on the desires she has during the contract. This may come to shape her unique power once she becomes a mahou shoujo. QB has stated that Madoka possess the power to change Sayaka back from mahou shoujo to human. This was made before she became a witch. So far QB has not lied, so I don't see any reason to accept this little tidbit as truth.

During Kyoko's questioning, QB evaded a key question she had, whether or not it was possible to change back from a witch into a mahou shoujo. What he said was: There is no precedent, I don't know if it possible. However, I would not be surprised considering that the very existanceof mahou shoujo goes against reason.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Was "universal entropy", as a major concern, in any way, shape, or form, even lightly foreshadowed? I mean, even symbolically?
Actually, kind of. I see it symbolic of the MS --> Witch food chain. Also the notion that there simply isn't enough to go around for everyone, so there are necessary evils you must do to get what you want. This is a critical choice for Madoka to make: Will she sacrifice her values to obtain something she desires?

Last edited by Daniel E.; 2011-03-04 at 04:48.
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Old 2011-03-04, 00:52   Link #154
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Quote:
Originally Posted by taofd View Post
You're assuming she has to sacrifice herself.
Not at all. I listed two other possible ways things could be played out.


Quote:
It doesn't have to be that way. Magic allows you to kick reason to the curb and do whatever the **** Madoka wants.
And that's the deus ex machina approach, imo.

I will admit that at least an ending like this is being foreshadowed though.


Here's a question for everybody: Why doesn't Kyubey just say "Madoka, you can save the universe! Just wish for the universe to have limitless energy and to never endure entropy!"
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Old 2011-03-04, 00:52   Link #155
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I'd just like to say that I'm with Madoka: "Then you really are our enemy".

I shouted out loud when she said that.

It's a very strong statement from her, remember this is Madoka is who is willing to trust and give almost anyone a second chance.

It's also very accurate.

To Kyubee, humans are sentient cattle. He knows we are sentient, yet he still uses deceit to harvest our souls. We have every moral right resist being eaten. Particularly as they specifically target our young. (Left unstated by Kyubee was that teenage girls are particularly vulnerable to being manipulated.)

If we allow arguments about "They don't know it's wrong" to calm us down then something must be wrong in our heads. If they don't know it's wrong to kill the young of another sentient species, then I suggest we force them to learn.

I want to know why nobody tells the parents. Isn't there one child who has responded by going to mommy and daddy and demonstrated some proof? Sigh... You'd think they'd at least try-

Oh wait. That will be next episode. Madoka tells her mother. Madoka becomes a magical girl. Madoka's mother goes to Kyubee and makes a wish that throws her back in time... after all it not necessarily limited to girls in puberty... what is that level of angst compared to a mother grieving for a child?
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Old 2011-03-04, 00:55   Link #156
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Oh wait. That will be next episode. Madoka tells her mother. Madoka becomes a magical girl. Madoka's mother goes to Kyubee and makes a wish that throws her back in time... after all it not necessarily limited to girls in puberty... what is that level of angst compared to a mother grieving for a child?
I lol'd at this.
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Old 2011-03-04, 00:57   Link #157
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I'm saying the concept of individual life has no meaning to Kyuubey. Sure an individual can be unhappy about their situation but ultimately their feeling and emotions don't matter. They're just a part o the machine, completely expendable. Kyuubey doesn't care about the girls' suffering because their suffering has no meaning to him, if his species even has a concept of suffering.

At most to him Madoka whining is no more significant than a child crying when she's being vaccinated. Sure she is upset now, her parents think, but if she knew what I knew she wouldn't complain so much. Kyuubey's species is on a higher level of existence than the human race. He said that humans may join them someday but until then they need to use magical girls to keep the universe "warm" for the humans when they get there. For now each individual human is just an ant to Kyuubey's people. He's confident that when humans as a population are sitting alongside his kind they will thank him for the work he did so that they could have that chance.
You from one might welcome you new stuffed animal overlords and be ready to sacrifice you and your families lives for his superior way of thinking and living but don't expect me to. Just because his species has achieved some level of technical superiority that humans haven't yet doesn't be I'm willing to be a sacrificial lamb for some "greater good" at his behest. People should value their own existence and respect the existence of others.
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Old 2011-03-04, 00:59   Link #158
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Since Sackett hinted at the issue, I'd also like to know where the hell Sayaka's legal guardian is during all of this (i.e. you know, the one Madoka talked to through the intercom system back in Episode 8).

Sayaka is now missing from home for two nights and two days in a row, skipping school both days, and no adult is anywhere to be found. In Japan, of all places. lol
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Old 2011-03-04, 01:02   Link #159
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Since Sackett hinted at the issue, I'd also like to know where the hell Sayaka's legal guardian is during all of this (i.e. you know, the one Madoka talked to through the intercom system back in Episode 8).

Sayaka is now missing from home for two nights and two days in a row, skipping school both days, and no adult is anywhere to be found. In Japan, of all places. lol
Pretty sure that in anime, parents don't worry about where their kids are or what they have been doing or just mysteriously disappear. That's at least that's what I've noticed. Either that or they don't live with their parents or are missing one or more of them .
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Old 2011-03-04, 01:05   Link #160
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There's no telling what kind of family Sayaka has, or if she even has a family with her.

Kyoko makes a stark contrast between Puella Magi and Madoka and notes Madoka's loving family. If a loving family is something Madoka fortunately has, then maybe it's also one of Puella Magi Sayaka's have-nots.

Also, while the previous episode did reveal that Kyubey has his limits to granting a wish, with this episode revealing his purpose, isn't Kyubey just an alien who uses super advanced technology to grant wishes? Healing a broken arm (for Sayaka's wish), mind controlling others (for Kyoko's wish), or saving a person's life (for Mami's wish) isn't unprecedented in science fiction.

Last edited by Shadow5YA; 2011-03-04 at 01:18.
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